|
Nate RFB posted:I would have figured it would just stutter if it was choking my CPU rather than throw in artifacts. I wonder if it's a CoreAVC feature. It's possible, I don't remember if CoreAVC supports H10 decoding. Anyway, CoreAVC isn't anymore the best option, so use LAV: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=156191
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2013 19:45
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 03:42 |
|
|
Wait did they specifically mention that he has absolutely no sync ratio with EVA-01 anymore? I might have missed that part, which confuses me because he was able to sync with Unit 13.
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2013 20:05
|
|
Scyantific posted:Wait did they specifically mention that he has absolutely no sync ratio with EVA-01 anymore? I might have missed that part, which confuses me because he was able to sync with Unit 13. Yep. Though, this is Evangelion, so I'm inclined to believe that any number, statistic, or scientific reading is meaningless until directly shown otherwise.
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2013 20:34
|
|
|
Abalieno posted:It's possible, I don't remember if CoreAVC supports H10 decoding. Anyway, CoreAVC isn't anymore the best option, so use LAV: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=156191
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2013 20:34
|
|
|
If we are talk about what people should or shouldnt have done with Shinji right at the start, Wille should have probably just excecuted him, he did commit genocide and is extremely dangerous after all. Then again there might have been some other reason for keeping him alive, but I can't imagine what it'd be other than piloting an Eva, which they warned him not to. Or maybe he is being kept alive because Wille or Mitsado still think killing a 14 year old is too far? Or... Yeah I might be thinking too hard about that. Shinji is alive because it'd be a short movie otherwise.
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2013 20:49
|
|
|
Shoehead posted:Or maybe he is being kept alive because Wille or Mitsado still think killing a 14 year old is too far? This is exactly what it is. This is the whole point of the scene where Shinji escapes, Misato isn't willing to kill him. Although that makes Asuka's comments about "the colonel's motto is human lives are expendable" and "All this fuss about one person" directed at Misato kind of intriguing. Is she reminding her, or giving her poo poo for it? Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Apr 28, 2013 |
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2013 20:58
|
|
|
So apparently the "Nemesis series" are man-made Angels sent by SEELE to attack Wille. Was this ever explicitly stated? Was the Nemesis series brought up in 2.22 and I just don't remember? I only found this out by reading the wikipedia summary. It's frustrating because I wish the movie had fully embraced the swashbuckling tone set in the first 30 minutes and made the Wille vs. NERV/SEELE war a focal point. But they had to get Shinji to interact with Kaworu, and I guess it just doesn't work unless there are a lot of arbitrary/convenient series of events to get him away from Wille first.
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2013 21:07
|
|
|
Nate RFB posted:So apparently the "Nemesis series" are man-made Angels sent by SEELE to attack Wille. Was this ever explicitly stated? Was the Nemesis series brought up in 2.22 and I just don't remember? I only found this out by reading the wikipedia summary. It's frustrating because I wish the movie had fully embraced the swashbuckling tone set in the first 30 minutes and made the Wille vs. NERV/SEELE war a focal point. But they had to get Shinji to interact with Kaworu, and I guess it just doesn't work unless there are a lot of arbitrary/convenient series of events to get him away from Wille first. Well, the Nemesis series wasn't mentioned at all in 2.22, but a poster in the previous thread pointed out with a picture that the first angel seen at the start of 2.22 looks way more robotic than alive. It had wires and electrical boxes and stuff, so I guess it was kind of a hint.
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2013 21:17
|
|
|
Watched 3.0 twice now. In and of itself, without taking any meta stuff into account, it's a pretty movie with an amazing soundtrack, and not incredible otherwise. But in that light, the original series was also just a melodramatic take on mecha anime with a low budget and a weird ending. The brilliance of Eva is always how it relates to the real world via its social commentary, and now how it relates to itself as a franchise. NGE as a cultural phenomenon turned out to be about the polar loving opposite of what Anno was hoping for, and EoE can obviously be seen as his reaction to the death threats, Asuka/Rei becoming wank material, and generally how many people missed the whole loving point. I recall an interview after 2.0 came out where Anno said that his purpose for Rebuild was to "destroy Eva" and everything about 3.0 makes a lot more sense with that in mind. He seems to be criticizing himself and his previous work just as much as he is the otaku now. Anyway, Shinji's treatment in 3.0 shows that Wille is just as retarded and selfish as NERV, even without Gendo at the helm. He was only trying to save Rei, he had no idea it would cause Third Impact. Plus Misato was loving egging him on while he was going berserk. They would have been doing themselves a favor to fill Shinji in, for gently caress's sake. That and the whole "Curse of Eva" bit ties in well with the whole theme of people refusing to grow or change, even after many years pass.
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2013 21:44
|
|
|
That certainly was an evangelion movie, I'm kinda glad they managed to make it confusing again. All in all I thought it was ok, lovely for evangelion but ok nonetheless. I have complaints like most everyone though. Why introduce a timeskip then immediately make it completely irrelevant? I don't care that it was a metajoke aimed at the audience, a dumb plot device is still a dumb plot device. It would be ok that they turned such an iconic robot into a macross ripoff if they had done anything interesting with it. It sucks big time that they abandoned all the weight that went with the robot fights, every action scene was so flashy and free of pain and terror. The cat eva was dumb, but forgivable. In the series the linchpin that tied all the cryptic nonsense together was the characters and their interactions. There was almost none of that except for the 20-30 minutes between Kaworu and Shinji which was the best part of the movie for me. I don't mind that they focused entirely on Shinji but believe it or not you can have more than one character arc in a movie. Also I have to wonder how they managed to clone Rei without half her brain "what is 'like'?"  . They also made her more boring than Rei III which is quite an accomplishment, then they started to repeat her character arc from the previous movies. It felt that she had no reason to be there other than the plot demanding it. I did like how lonely and deserted everything was though. And the Kaworu in the movie is so much better than the series version, although I didn't like that there wasn't any interaction between him and Rei. It managed to be entertaining despite its flaws, but it's unremarkable so I'll quickly forget about it and wait for 4.0.
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2013 21:49
|
|
|
Feranon posted:I recall an interview after 2.0 came out where Anno said that his purpose for Rebuild was to "destroy Eva" and everything about 3.0 makes a lot more sense with that in mind. He seems to be criticizing himself and his previous work just as much as he is the otaku now. Well he's always been an otaku, that's Gainax for you. And in a sense it takes an otaku to become an anime director; anime is what anime is made of, only slightly more literally for Eva. The  talk was interesting - Eva's always been suspicious of technology, even air-conditioning, as people hide behind it and use it without thinking about whether they should or whether they want to be the kind of person who does thing like that.
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2013 21:50
|
|
|
Feranon posted:Watched 3.0 twice now. In and of itself, without taking any meta stuff into account, it's a pretty movie with an amazing soundtrack, and not incredible otherwise. But in that light, the original series was also just a melodramatic take on mecha anime with a low budget and a weird ending. The brilliance of Eva is always how it relates to the real world via its social commentary, and now how it relates to itself as a franchise. NGE as a cultural phenomenon turned out to be about the polar loving opposite of what Anno was hoping for, and EoE can obviously be seen as his reaction to the death threats, Asuka/Rei becoming wank material, and generally how many people missed the whole loving point. Shinji literally says that he doesn't care what happens to the world when he's doing his Super Evangelion bit. It's an intentional reference to how many super robot pilots will go "I don't care about the consequences, courage will turn 0 into 100%" only in this case it didn't work out. Shinji knew he was piloting a machine of untold power and he didn't care. We can see this again in 3.0 where, even with full knowledge of the risks, he does it AGAIN.
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2013 21:52
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:Shinji literally says that he doesn't care what happens to the world when he's doing his Super Evangelion bit. It's an intentional reference to how many super robot pilots will go "I don't care about the consequences, courage will turn 0 into 100%" only in this case it didn't work out. Shinji knew he was piloting a machine of untold power and he didn't care. Yeah, but in both cases you have to consider that Shinji is a tormented fourteen year old kid being used as a puppet by adults with agendas he has no understanding of. At the end of 2.0, he sees one of his only friends (who just happens to remind him a whole lot of his dead mom) get eaten by a loving monster. Of course he's going to throw caution to the wind and go apeshit. Hell, plenty of grown-ups would do that to try and save someone they love. The responsibility for what happened falls not on Shinji, but the people who carelessly put him in that position. As for Fourth Impact or whatever you want to call it, the same kid is in even more emotional turmoil than before because he knows he hosed up big time, but isn't getting much in the way of how or why he hosed up, and all he wants is for things to go back to the way they were. Suddenly, along comes his new bestie Kaworu - now the only sympathetic character is his life - with an answer. So, Wille's telling him not to pilot, his dad is telling him he must pilot, Kaworu's leading him into it while promising it'll make him happy, then once they're already down there he's saying "hey let's maybe not do this" and it's all just confusion and mixed signals for Shinji. Shinji, the tired, confused, emotionally devastated fourteen year old. He's still being manipulated and kept in the dark on a constant basis, and when his poorly-timed attempts to believe in himself and show some agency end in disaster, the grown rear end adults who put him where he is have the balls to blame him for it. Why should the poor bastard care what happens to the world when the world scarcely gives him any reason to?
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2013 22:34
|
|
|
The nearly averted Fourth Impact is definitely on his head, he went into that with more knowledge and initiative than he's ever had before. That there's a degree of collective guilt among everyone who pushed him down that path doesn't absolve him of walking it -- it's not like the series where everything was do-or-everyone dies, or like 2.22 where he couldn't reasonably have known the consequences of his actions. At the same time, though, the point here is not "well Shinji is just a lovely, worthless human being who causes disasters because he's so awful." That's a really mean-spirited, to say nothing of factually inaccurate observation. He's making common, normal mistakes for a 14-year-old (loving up personal relationships, not listening to good advice, trying to "undo" his errors rather than acknowledge them) -- mistakes which would be his responsibility even if he were living a normal life, but in a normal life they would be learning experiences and ultimately trivial. Instead the context of those mistakes make them crimes against all of humanity. To put it simply, it's not fair, but it's still his fault. Which brings us to Kaworu who... honestly, I've never understood Kaworu, and I still don't. His advice is all over the place. His message about atonement and no sin being beyond redemption is a good one, and I don't want to believe Rebuild is trying to say that that's a lie. But his idea of "hope" is pushing Shinji towards those spears, and he only backs down from it in a moment of crisis when Asuka is (at least apparently) trying to kill them. Gendo and Fuyutsuki seem confident that he's doing SEELE's will, and "I really was born to meet you!" is pretty ominous coming from an artificial human created by a doomsday cult. He goes from benevolent Christ figure to a meaningless fountain of technobabble -- Shinji straight up tells him "I don't understand what you're talking about!" This is totally in keeping with Eva's characterization of religion as hollow, but forgiveness transcends religion and shouldn't be thrown out with the bathwater. One thing's for certain, though: for all her anger, Asuka remains the most sympathetic character in Rebuild. Kaworu's inhuman sense of self and balance isn't something Shinji can emulate immediately, and considering the way Kaworu dies -- duped and cursing himself -- I don't know if it would help even if he could. When Shinji says he wants to change the world, Asuka tells him: "Then don't pilot!" and later "At least get to know how the world works first!" Even if she's still calling him an idiot and a brat, it's a mistake to compare this too closely to the series: she's saying that from a completely different perspective. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Apr 28, 2013 |
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2013 22:59
|
|
|
Feranon posted:Why should the poor bastard care what happens to the world when the world scarcely gives him any reason to? The problem I have with this line of reasoning is that in 3.0 Shinji doesn't cause Fourth Impact because he's weighed the risk and decided that he doesn't care about the potential bad outcomes because the world sucks. He's just doing it to runaway from the unintended consequences of his actions. He's being willfully blind, though given all the reasons you list this is understandable, not willfully reckless. So having taken some time to digest 3.0 I'm thinking of it as a mixed bag. As part of the series of movies it works fine, but on it's own it feels a bit cramped. And I don't say that because it just focuses solely on Shinji, that's fine. It's just that the whole movie has all these big reveals that are full of emtional impact, but at least for me they never devoted enough time to letting them land. Within a few seconds you're off to the next big thing. I don't know maybe that was the intended effect, to mimic Shinji's mounting instability, but for me it made the events of the ending fall flat because I was too worn out to process it and I ended up not caring very much. Also I have to echo that even if Mari ends up having a big role in 4.0 she's still a terrible character overall. The flight crew of the Wunder that never gets named has better characterization and are useful because they demonstrate how even the people who have no previous personal and emotional connection to Shinji hate him. What has Mari ever actualy done? I don't know, I'll watch it a second time and maybe it'll improve a bit. Actually something I just realized, We still have one angel that hasn't been revealed yet right? We had 10 at the end of 2.0 and either 11 or 12 and 13 in 3.0, so I'm wondering if the last Angel will show up in 4.0 even though the arrival and death of 13th seemed like it was supposed to be a big deal, or if it showed up and was eliminated during the events between 2.0 and 3.0 and we won't ever really here anything about it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2013 23:26
|
|
|
Also, I suspect the scene with Fuyutsuki is important to getting a handle on all of this. I don't know enough about Shogi to say if confidently predicting someone's loss 31 moves ahead is mathematically feasible, but at least it represents a staggering degree of superior understanding. The subtext here is pretty obvious: Fuyutsuki and Gendo have Shinji's life predicted and planned out to a literally prophetic degree. You could even get absurdly on-the-nose and compare his handicap to NERV's loss of Wille. The thing is, Fuyutsuki is an increasingly reluctant conspirator. He tries to talk Gendo into reaching out to his son, even though Gendo obviously doesn't care. He calls himself "timid" and admits he had to work up the courage to talk to Shinji, which if he isn't lying suggests that this talk wasn't part of plan. Also while Gendo's plan relies on manipulating Shinji emotionally, Fuyutsuki repeats a piece of Kaworu's advice: be calm if you want to win the battle. He subtly betrays Gendo (who threw out every physical artifact of Yui's) by handing Shinji her photograph, not to mention that the entire shogi scene takes place at the location of the contact experiment. Now, it's not likely that Fuyutsuki is actually working against Gendo's plan here -- he defends Gendo's plan to Shinji, and tells Gendo himself later that he'll "go along" with it for Yui's sake. But he doesn't have faith in it ("this is almost exactly what SEELE wanted!") and he's illustrated the nature of the plan to both Shinji and the audience -- it's a plan that sells his soul, sacrifices everything, locks the future up in mathematical certainty, and yet Gendo can't even convince his closest friend and confidant that it's a good idea. cafel posted:Actually something I just realized, We still have one angel that hasn't been revealed yet right? We had 10 at the end of 2.0 and either 11 or 12 and 13 in 3.0, so I'm wondering if the last Angel will show up in 4.0 even though the arrival and death of 13th seemed like it was supposed to be a big deal, or if it showed up and was eliminated during the events between 2.0 and 3.0 and we won't ever really here anything about it. Kaworu is 13, and the autonomous Unit-06 is 12; both of these are explicitly stated. The unnamed box angel guarding Shinji's tomb at the beginning of 3.33 is probably the "missing" one. Mari also refers to Kaworu as the last, c.f. "Besides, I'm curious to see what terrible things will happen once the last angel's dead." Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 23:38 on Apr 28, 2013 |
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2013 23:36
|
|
|
When is it stated that Unit-06 is the 12th angel? Which one was Unit-06 anyways? 
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2013 23:40
|
|
|
cafel posted:The problem I have with this line of reasoning is that in 3.0 Shinji doesn't cause Fourth Impact because he's weighed the risk and decided that he doesn't care about the potential bad outcomes because the world sucks. He's just doing it to runaway from the unintended consequences of his actions. He's being willfully blind, though given all the reasons you list this is understandable, not willfully reckless. I wasn't trying to say that he was being willfully reckless, just offering a rebuttal to the characters in the story as well as the segment of viewers who are all "drat shinji he keeps almost-destroying the world!" when he's an angsty teenanger and the world has been mostly terrible to him. I guess I'm saying that even if Shinji was willfully reckless or even spiteful and said "gently caress THE WORLD" he'd be justified, in my opinion.
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2013 23:46
|
|
|
SHISHKABOB posted:When is it stated that Unit-06 is the 12th angel? Which one was Unit-06 anyways? Right after the spears are pulled out, we see Unit 06 come back to life and Asuka panics because she realizes that the 12th angel is still alive in said unit. Unit 06 was under construction for most of 2.22 and was finished in time for Kaworu to spear Unit 01 at the end and a lot of people thought it was going to be Kaworu's personal eva, but that's not the case.
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2013 23:46
|
|
|
Tuxedo Catfish posted:Kaworu is 13, and the autonomous Unit-06 is 12; both of these are explicitly stated. The unnamed box angel guarding Shinji's tomb at the beginning of 3.33 is probably the "missing" one. Mari also refers to Kaworu as the last, c.f. "Besides, I'm curious to see what terrible things will happen once the last angel's dead." I went back and gave the first scene a quick look. They specifically refer to the guardian using the same Mk. designation as the artifical angel like things created by SEELE and it has the same technological look, so that's probably not the 11th Angel, unless the 11th Angel was used to make the Nemesis series, which is just as likely as any other random explanation. And yeah that line about Kaworu made me think that the 11th isn't going to show up in the 4.0. I'm thinking the 11th Angel was just dealt with offscreen between 2.0 and 3.0 and it, along with most of the other stuff dealing with Third Impact, are not going to ever really be eleborated on.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2013 00:02
|
|
|
Feranon posted:I wasn't trying to say that he was being willfully reckless, just offering a rebuttal to the characters in the story as well as the segment of viewers who are all "drat shinji he keeps almost-destroying the world!" when he's an angsty teenanger and the world has been mostly terrible to him. I guess I'm saying that even if Shinji was willfully reckless or even spiteful and said "gently caress THE WORLD" he'd be justified, in my opinion. Then I'm pretty sure that's the attitude the Rebuild movies are working against. There are not a lot of people who will go "You had a bad life? Oh, alright then, not caring about other people is fine." I mean Gendo is, at heart, the kind of guy who had a bad experience and decided to gently caress the world to get what he wants. Shinji does not want to and should not want to emulate that fucker. Nobody is saying Shinji is a Bad Person. He is a teenager who makes mistakes. That doesn't mean that he's suddenly free from the consequences of those mistakes. The world isn't fair, but the response to the world being fair shouldn't be "Oh, fine, I give up then, what's the point of trying?" It's an understandable motivation but not one where we suddenly absolve Shinji of what it causes, especially when it harms other people. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 00:36 on Apr 29, 2013 |
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2013 00:30
|
|
|
Rebuild 4 reveals that Shinji is actually just BoI's Isaac.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2013 00:57
|
|
ImpAtom posted:I mean Gendo is, at heart, the kind of guy who had a bad experience and decided to gently caress the world to get what he wants. Shinji does not want to and should not want to emulate that fucker. I think this is an easily overlooked fact that people need to keep in mind to understand why Shinji's actions at the end of 2.22 were A Bad Thing. He was essentially forsaking the world, and deciding to get what He wanted at any cost. In other words, he was turning into Gendo.
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2013 00:59
|
|
|
loving hell, it's a military document in here. e: And the spoiler above me is the main dramatic juxtaposition of that character's arc in 2.22 and in this Eva thing as a whole. e: And Shinji is a bad person. Teenagers are assholes because they don't know any better a lot of the time. The moral tension I guess is how much Shinji reflects or does not reflect the adults who have become and stayed bad people. MadRhetoric fucked around with this message at 01:12 on Apr 29, 2013 |
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2013 01:10
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:Then I'm pretty sure that's the attitude the Rebuild movies are working against. There are not a lot of people who will go "You had a bad life? Oh, alright then, not caring about other people is fine." I mean Gendo is, at heart, the kind of guy who had a bad experience and decided to gently caress the world to get what he wants. Shinji does not want to and should not want to emulate that fucker. The problem I have with this is that 3.33 seems to contradict itself. The basic message is "You need to grow the gently caress up, Shinji/Otakus". But anytime Shinji tries anything, the world gets more hosed up as the result, to the point where everyone tells him to please, just stop trying, thanks. What kind of message is that? "You will make mistakes growing up, and it is therefore better not to grow up at all"?
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2013 01:35
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:Then I'm pretty sure that's the attitude the Rebuild movies are working against. There are not a lot of people who will go "You had a bad life? Oh, alright then, not caring about other people is fine." I mean Gendo is, at heart, the kind of guy who had a bad experience and decided to gently caress the world to get what he wants. Shinji does not want to and should not want to emulate that fucker. I definitely see where you're coming from, I just don't think Shinji and Gendo's circumstances are all that similar. As a man, Gendo lost his spouse which is a tragic but not unusual occurrence and decided to be the biggest possible dick about it. Meanwhile, Yui dying is one of Shinji's first memories and it never seems to get much better for him from there. Gendo abandons him until he has a use for him, and when he finally does have a use for him, it's pretty much The Worst Thing. Shinji's life after coming to NERV is just an unending parade of insanely messed up poo poo, and he doesn't even have the luxury of making normal teenage mistakes without wreaking havoc and causing everyone else to hate him. And even as all these people are telling him he hosed up and are treating him like dirt, they're also still telling him what to do and putting a god damned head-exploding collar on him if he disobeys. In Shinji's case, it goes beyond his life being crappy or unfair into straight up cruelty perpetuated by adults. And naive as it may be, it's a credit to his character that Shinji still just wants to fix things and make people like him again instead of being ready to completely gently caress poo poo up. I should have mentioned that in this analysis, I'm not looking at Shinji as the selfish otaku manchild/young Anno stand-in but as an analogue to present-day disenfranchised and mistreated youth who are often dealt a lovely hand, stripped of agency, forced into unwanted roles, and have an increasingly bleak-looking future, all while being told that this adversity is their responsibility to deal with and if they don't overcome it and move forward like society expects them to they're failures instead of victims. It's just my own reading of the character and not what Anno had in mind, but I find it a broader and more interesting commentary than "nerds suck and need to get a life" v  v
Segata Sanshiro fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Apr 29, 2013 |
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2013 01:39
|
|
|
You can talk about stuff out of spoilers a week after it's widely available in English, right? I'm still really hesitant to condemn Shinji's actions in 2.22. That his attempt to save Rei was a disaster is obvious in hindsight, but I hope that whatever they do with her story arc in 4 makes it more complicated than just "it was a sin that gained you nothing." Also, bear in mind that even if Shinji had done nothing, there was a rampaging Angel / Unit-00 hybrid in NERV HQ. With Unit-00's ID code, it wouldn't have tripped the self-destruct mechanism, and there were no other viable Eva Units left to defend except Unit-01, which rejected the Dummy Plug. In other words, the only thing standing between an Angel reaching Lilith and wiping out humanity completely was Shinji. The only thing he's guilty of is focusing on saving one person instead of saving everyone, which incidentally would have required him to kill her himself. Even if his actions destroyed most of the world, he's also the only reason the rest of it is still there. Damning him for that is like blaming someone who runs into a burning building for only rescuing their own family instead of going back for everyone. ArchangeI posted:The problem I have with this is that 3.33 seems to contradict itself. The basic message is "You need to grow the gently caress up, Shinji/Otakus". But anytime Shinji tries anything, the world gets more hosed up as the result, to the point where everyone tells him to please, just stop trying, thanks. What kind of message is that? "You will make mistakes growing up, and it is therefore better not to grow up at all"? Yeah, this is my #1 source of frustration with 3.33 and with how people are reading it. I still think with some fancy interpretive footwork it might be saying something else, and a lot rides on that fourth film, but if not I am going to get unashamedly Mad At Animes. I suppose it's still a testament to Anno's strength as a writer that he can rile me up like this. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 01:50 on Apr 29, 2013 |
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2013 01:45
|
|
|
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2013 01:47
|
|
|
After watching 3.33 a couple times, I'm starting to feel like it's the Empire Strikes Back of Eva Rebuild. Barring the whole "start of Third Impact" thing, we ended 2.22 on what seemed like a high note. Thanks to Shinji, NERV had just triumphed over their greatest foe to date. All of the key characters have probably survived (Asuka showed up in previews, and there's plenty more Reis where that came from, if she hasn't been saved already). We're expecting to see maybe some more rear end kicking in 3.33, perhaps SEELE with Kaworu VS NERV with Shinji and the gang. 3.33 opens with the poo poo already hitting the fan. The "good guys" have been scattered and are barely scraping by. Shinji heads off to find himself, gets some good advice that he ultimately ignores. He gets hit with a shocking family secret. He runs off headlong into what he thinks is right, gets his rear end handed to him, and fucks things up even more. Finally, the ending leaves us with the promise that our "hero" will be back to fight another day. I know, I might be stretching, but I enjoyed seeing another set of movies with that sort of tone.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2013 01:57
|
|
Tuxedo Catfish posted:
 It would have been harsh, but it may have been the better choice to make. ArchangeI posted:The problem I have with this is that 3.33 seems to contradict itself. The basic message is "You need to grow the gently caress up, Shinji/Otakus". But anytime Shinji tries anything, the world gets more hosed up as the result, to the point where everyone tells him to please, just stop trying, thanks. What kind of message is that? "You will make mistakes growing up, and it is therefore better not to grow up at all"? The problem with Shinji isn't that he chooses to act, its that when he acts, its from a childish perspective. Keep in mind that the entire reason things got to the state they did at the end of 2.22 was because Shinji left, and Kaji essentially had to guilt him into returning and taking his post. The entire episode 14 sequence in the original series, as well as the Zeruel sequence in rebuild, are basically a dark, monkey's paw-ish take on the classic childish statement of "You'll all miss me when I'm gone!" Its actually quite similar to a scene in the original Gundam, when the protagonist steals the gundam and runs away, the White Base is attacked in his absence, and he returns just in time to save everyone when it seemed they were about to be defeated. If he had stayed, it's likely, though not certain, that Rei would have never been eaten at all, Unit 02 wouldn't have been nearly destroyed, and Zeruel wouldn't have made it into NERV HQ. Instead, the whole sequence plays out like a twisted form of a cliche, with Shinji gone, his allies being stomped, and him returning at the last moment to save the day, but by the time he gets back, one of his few friends and allies has died because he wasn't there. He could have accepted that it was a mistake to leave, and dealt with the guilt that Rei was dead essentially because of him, but he instead tries to say "gently caress you, I want a happy ending!" and reverse everything that he could have been blamed for, and as a result a lot of people die because of it. What's worse, the entire ending sequence of 3.33 is essentially Shinji deciding to do all this again, even though he's already seen that he can't reverse his mistakes. Kaworu, literally the only person Shinji has decided to trust, has changed his mind and is begging Shinji to turn back, but Shinji refuses - not because he wants to save the world, not because he thinks its the right thing to do, but because, like a child trying to hide the pieces of a broken vase, he wants to erase his mistake without learning from it. Yes, he's been misled, yes, he's been abused, yes, he's been lied to, but ultimately its him who chooses not to listen or learn. The problem isn't the idea of Shinji acting, it's that he refuses to act like an adult. Unfortunately, nobody else in the cast is willing to act like one either.
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2013 02:27
|
|
|
I never have and never will fault Shinji for leaving NERV in episode 19. Him staying and just toeing the line would have been insane.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2013 02:31
|
|
|
Nate RFB posted:I never have and never will fault Shinji for leaving NERV in episode 19. Him staying and just toeing the line would have been insane. Shinji was literally fighting to stop the apocolypse and save the life of every living being on the planet. He left after one of their two pilots had been horribly maimed, so he willingly left them with only Rei and the Dummy Plug. It's perfectly understandable but it still was a selfish response which could easily have doomed everyone on Earth, including himself. Anyone probably would have done it but that doesn't make it a right decision. Feranon posted:
It's possible to be both a victim and still be to blame. Someone who breaks into a house and hurts someone because they needed money because the world hosed them over is an understandable victim, but they're still responsible for their actions as well. "I had a bad life" doesn't mean you're suddenly justified in doing whatever you do even if it hurts others. [s] ArchangeI posted:The problem I have with this is that 3.33 seems to contradict itself. The basic message is "You need to grow the gently caress up, Shinji/Otakus". But anytime Shinji tries anything, the world gets more hosed up as the result, to the point where everyone tells him to please, just stop trying, thanks. What kind of message is that? "You will make mistakes growing up, and it is therefore better not to grow up at all"? Just because you act doesn't mean you're acting in the right way. Shinji made mistakes but he made them because he acted in selfish or self-centered ways. Even rescuing Rei was "I will do the thing that is important to me, and I don't care if it hurts other people." He wants to save one person and didn't care what it meant for anyone else. People are not telling him to stop trying. Shinji can only view his self-worth in the terms of "pilot an Evangelion" (or from a meta-perspective, Shinji can only cling to Evangelion) and what is being pushed by people like Asuka is "hey, move on from Evangelion!" Asuka's hypocriticy in that regards is likely intentional as well. She too is infected by the Curse of Eva, even if she is better about it. Shinji's problem is that he wants to redo his mistakes instead of moving on from them. That is specifically what he is fighting from in the ending. "I want the chance to redo it! I'll do it right this time, I swear!" ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Apr 29, 2013 |
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2013 02:42
|
|
Nate RFB posted:I never have and never will fault Shinji for leaving NERV in episode 19. Him staying and just toeing the line would have been insane. It really is a hard thing to blame him for, I agree. It was a lovely situation to be in and a lovely situation overall. However, it's abundantly clear from how - in both versions - he was easily stomping Zeruel even before unit 01 went berserk that had he been there from the start, the situation probably wouldn't have escalated nearly as far. I mean, let's be honest here, it's not like he was throwing his hat down and quitting his job at McDonalds, as far as he knew he was one of maybe three people - two, in rebuild - who were even remotely capable of stopping the Angels, and in Rebuild especially he is actively aware of how high the stakes are if they make it to terminal dogma. He was well aware that he was putting the entire world in danger by quitting, and while he was in an incredibly lovely and abusive situation, leaving wasn't going to make it better.
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2013 02:47
|
|
|
Breaking into someone's house to rob them and, essentially, a veteran child soldier stepping down (is it even without leave?) because his PTSD is crippling his ability to function aren't really morally comparable. Especially if he could reasonably assume the Dummy Plug would render him unnecessary.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2013 02:48
|
|
|
Tuxedo Catfish posted:Breaking into someone's house to rob them and, essentially, a veteran child soldier stepping down (is it even without leave?) because his PTSD is crippling his ability to function aren't really morally comparable. Especially if he could reasonably assume the Dummy Plug would render him unnecessary. The last time the Dummy Plug was used it crippled/badly injured/killed (depending on the version we're talking about) one of Shinji's friends because it fought without care or mercy. That is the entire point of why it is a bad thing. If the Dummy Plug had been there in previous fights, Keisuke and Touji and Rei all would have died. Again, it's a perfectly understandable thing for Shinji to do and it would frankly have been out of character for him to do anything else. That doesn't make it the decision that doesn't lead to disastrous outcomes. It doesn't mean that NERV's lovely-rear end leadership isn't at massive fault either but Shinji made the knowing and willing decision to leave knowing the consequences and the current state. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 02:55 on Apr 29, 2013 |
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2013 02:51
|
|
|
mr. stefan posted:It really is a hard thing to blame him for, I agree. It was a lovely situation to be in and a lovely situation overall. However, it's abundantly clear from how - in both versions - he was easily stomping Zeruel even before unit 01 went berserk that had he been there from the start, the situation probably wouldn't have escalated nearly as far. E: I thought it was implied that the Dummy Plugs were directly controlled by Gendo, hence why he was so amused when it tore Eva 06 apart.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2013 02:54
|
|
|
Nate RFB posted:E: I thought it was implied that the Dummy Plugs were directly controlled by Gendo, hence why he was so amused when it tore Eva 06 apart. There's no indication Gendo has any control over it. He certainly doesn't appear to be doing anything like that, and especially as presented in Rebuild, it just appears that it causes the Eva to become a Beast. In the original it's implied that it is using a Rei clone or something to trick the Eva into thinking it has a pilot or something similar (Rei-00 is written on the plug) but that doesn't show up in Rebuild.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2013 02:58
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:There's no indication Gendo has any control over it. He certainly doesn't appear to be doing anything like that, and especially as presented in Rebuild, it just appears that it causes the Eva to become a Beast. In the original it's implied that it is using a Rei clone or something to trick the Eva into thinking it has a pilot or something similar (Rei-00 is written on the plug) but that doesn't show up in Rebuild. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sqEzIHyYPk "Freedom is an illusion. All you lose is the emotion of pride. To be dominated by me is not as bad for humankind as to be dominated by others of your species"
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2013 03:01
|
|
|
Popehoist posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sqEzIHyYPk Huh, good to know. So yeah, it ain't Gendo. It's the Dummy Plug (or maybe the Evangelion itself?) The quote can only be from an artifical being for the quote to make sense though considering its source.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2013 03:02
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 03:42 |
|
|
ImpAtom posted:
This is exactly what Misato (and by extension the bridge crew of the Wunder) are telling him. Ritsuko even advocates killing him. The only people who aren't either telling him "give up and never do anything again," "die," or "pilot the robot" are Asuka and I guess Sakura if she's in any way significant. ImpAtom posted:Huh, good to know. So yeah, it ain't Gendo. It's the Dummy Plug (or maybe the Evangelion itself?) The quote can only be from an artifical being for the quote to make sense though considering its source. It's from a 70's sci-fi film: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0064177/?ref_=ttqt_qt_tt
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2013 03:08
|
|