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zetamind2000
Nov 6, 2007

I'm an alien.

NikkolasKing posted:

Well the SIP manga is longer than the actual NGE manga and I don't think it's ending any time soon. That's pretty impressive.

As for the video game, wasn't there a Rei variant? I think I saw it on EvaGeeks. Granted, that might very old by this point.

I meant the video game, yeah. The game itself is pretty old by now (it came out in 2004) and the most it ever got toward a translation was an FAQ on EvaGeeks. It was discovered eventually that the game can be hooked up to a program that can dump all of the text that gets displayed on screen to a log as you play it, which can be run through machine translation to at least give you a rough idea of what you're doing, but it's not the same thing as an actual translation.

Also yeah the Rei variant (with additional Asuka variant) for the Nintendo DS got a fan translation a little while ago.

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NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010



Question.

I've forgotten a fair bit from the anime, and I remember almost nothing from EOE.

What do people here think of the "Yui was the Evil Mastermind" perception that some fans have? What exactly is the basis for this belief?

As I said, I can't remember enough about it to say one way or another. My most recent knowledge comes from the manga in which she trusted Shinji to reject Instrumentality and everything was set in place so that he and he alone would be the one to decide the fate of humanity instead of SEELE or anybody else.

Of course, she also got sucked into the Eva without telling Gendo, which led to him becoming the abusive, misanthropic rear end in a top hat we saw in the series. Regardless of her end goals, that was a pretty dick move on her part.

EDIT:

A distinction pointed out to me was that, in EOE, Yui only worked with Shinji after Asuka was brutally killed. In the manga, Yui helped Shinji right away and so Asuka survived.

So yeah, if Yui is at all responsible for Asuka's death, that could go a long way to explaining why she's viewed as a villain.

NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 01:02 on Jul 4, 2015

Szmitten
Apr 26, 2008
I don't think anyone ever really calls her villainous, but she is the mastermind for better or worse.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.
There are only a few scenes to go on, but here's what we know about Yui from the TV series + EoE.

She knew the apocalypse was coming, presumably from firsthand access to the Dead Sea Scrolls at some point. She calls Gendo the day before Second Impact and he leaves immediately, and her entire plan hinges on the idea that she knows what SEELE wants to do and opposes it.

Whatever her plan was, Fuyutsuki approves of it, and when he and Gendo talk he's always the one advocating the value of humanity as it is. Gendo's memory of her and her own words at the end of EoE emphasize how much she values remembering the past, which combined with her "sees the future, tries only to mitigate the damage and save her loved ones" approach suggests a pretty fatalistic view of the future.

Gendo is the optimistic one, he thinks he can take on the world single-handed and win; Yui was running for her life (SEELE would have killed her if she didn't disappear during the contact experiment) and had already seen proof that the scrolls were accurate once, and ultimately the apocalpyse does occur on schedule so there's nothing to say she's wrong to think that way. (At least, not until you take Rebuild into account -- Rebuild is not very kind to Yui so far.)

She loves her son and wants him to have a future, and she could see the good in Gendo even if it's not entirely clear how much of it is love vs. pity by the end. (Depends on whether you interpret the scene of her embracing him during Instrumentality as actually being her, or just Gendo's projected understanding of her / an illusion.)

She is, without question, the source of the hallucinatory experiences Shinji and Rei have while piloting Unit-01, but it's not clear how much conscious control she has. When I first started piecing poo poo together on my second or third viewing of the series I thought "wow she's a psycho, deliberately setting her son up with this whole gross Oedipal nightmare," but in retrospect you have to think about her situation first. The Evangelion is a monster and (likely) in constant pain, and she's just a small, barely-conscious voice at the bottom of that. Plus it's a shared experience, not a broadcast, and Shinji is bringing all of his own baggage to how he interprets the feeling of being loved, something he doesn't have a lot of experience with. So you get some weird stuff like the "would you like to become one with me?" scene but I don't think it's fair to blame that entirely on her.

The same goes for the times when Unit-01 refuses to move; there's no reason to think she can tell what's going on outside and makes a conscious decision to toy with people's lives; it's more likely it's a response to Shinji's absence (re: the dummy plug) or desperation and fear (EoE).

So to answer your question, she's definitely not evil, and "mastermind" sort of depends. She knew what was going on, she made a last-ditch contingency plan, and it worked out more or less. But she wasn't the driving force behind everything that happened or even an active player until the very end -- she just came back at the last minute to upend the cosmic game of Chicken that Gendo and Keel Lorenz were playing.

Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 08:25 on Jul 4, 2015

nehezir
Aug 9, 2011

Stalwart Guardian of the Lewd
I thought bluebloods was rahxephon's thing?

Szmitten
Apr 26, 2008

nehezir posted:

I thought bluebloods was rahxephon's thing?

A lot of Rahxephon's things are Eva or Raideen things.

Jostiband
May 7, 2007

Hey now, Shinji has a lot of experience with being loved.
Lots of bad experience, but it counts. :colbert:

Jostiband
May 7, 2007

Someone should do some experiments for science. Lock the kid in a room with a tape playing "I love you, Shinji" every few minutes.
It'd be pretty interesting to see whether he chews his way through the walls, or tries to dig a hole through the earth. Dude's gotta have hella pavlov built up by now...

Intel&Sebastian
Oct 20, 2002

colonel...
i'm trying to sneak around
but i'm dummy thicc
and the clap of my ass cheeks
keeps alerting the guards!
That cartoon is funny but the point that's missed is that its not actually all that fun to drive the giant robot and in fact it kind of sucks rear end. Which is one of the better decisions in the show.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Yeah, I think people who go "why doesn't Shinji just man up" really are kind of ignoring... huge chunks of the show.

Being forced into a giant biomechanical death-beast who connects to you in obscene ways and forces you to feel its pain, followed by being forced into battle with inhuman beasts who are more than willing to tear your robot apart is not fun. Shinji got to feel what it was like to have limbs ripped off his body while fighting terrifying abominations he can't possibly understand. The fact that there are hot women around doesn't make getting your loving arm torn off (even if just the sensation of it) any fun unless you got way more serious problems than Shinji Ikari does.

I guess to some degree it's the giant robot version of "I don't get why those people didn't rush that gunman! I'd totally have kicked his rear end!"

GhostofJohnMuir
Aug 14, 2014

anime is not good
I was happy when I introduced my sister to this series and she was majorly pissed at how the adults treated Shinji. As she put it "They loving cheered when it managed to take a single step, that's a hosed up weapon to make a teenager pilot into a life or death situation."

Foul Ole Ron
Jan 6, 2005

All of you, please don't rush, everyone do the Guybrush!
Fun Shoe
Ironicly much of the Shinji hate is projection or a form of transferance.

Its part of the shows appeal to me and why I think some people worhship or hate it.

nehezir
Aug 9, 2011

Stalwart Guardian of the Lewd

Szmitten posted:

A lot of Rahxephon's things are Eva or Raideen things.
this is true, I guess I just never noticed blue blood showing up in eva and rahxephon made a point out of it.

ImpAtom posted:

Yeah, I think people who go "why doesn't Shinji just man up" really are kind of ignoring... huge chunks of the show.

Being forced into a giant biomechanical death-beast who connects to you in obscene ways and forces you to feel its pain, followed by being forced into battle with inhuman beasts who are more than willing to tear your robot apart is not fun. Shinji got to feel what it was like to have limbs ripped off his body while fighting terrifying abominations he can't possibly understand. The fact that there are hot women around doesn't make getting your loving arm torn off (even if just the sensation of it) any fun unless you got way more serious problems than Shinji Ikari does.

I guess to some degree it's the giant robot version of "I don't get why those people didn't rush that gunman! I'd totally have kicked his rear end!"

this layer of interface actually went right over my head since it was never really mentioned.

Midjack
Dec 24, 2007



nehezir posted:

this is true, I guess I just never noticed blue blood showing up in eva and rahxephon made a point out of it.

The blood wasn't often blue colored but when they showed up on NERV's sensors there was always a cry of "BLOOD TYPE BLUE, IT'S AN ANGEL!"

Raxivace
Sep 9, 2014

That close up shot of Ayato's hand in RahXephon with all the blue blood on it was a recurring image across NGE as well, starting with Shinji having Rei's blood on his hand in episode 1, then Gendo with the disgusting Angel thing mutated onto his hand in a DC episode, and the lastly the infamous shot with the semen on Shinji's hand in EoE.

nehezir
Aug 9, 2011

Stalwart Guardian of the Lewd
well, poo poo. I really need to re-watch the series. I'm holding off on the rebuild movies until they're all out.

Raxivace
Sep 9, 2014

nehezir posted:

well, poo poo. I really need to re-watch the series. I'm holding off on the rebuild movies until they're all out.

If you're going to be reading this thread, you might as well watch them sooner rather than later. They're pretty interesting, and it's going to probably be a while still before the last film comes out.

Raxivace fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Jul 11, 2015

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.

ImpAtom posted:

The fact that there are hot women around doesn't make getting your loving arm torn off (even if just the sensation of it) any fun unless you got way more serious problems than Shinji Ikari does.

The series visually links those two scenarios -- look at the scene where Misato grabs Shinji by the head to berate him and then look at how the fight with Sachiel goes down.

Point being people are almost as alien and scary to the poor kid as the Angels are.

Raxivace
Sep 9, 2014

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

The series visually links those two scenarios -- look at the scene where Misato grabs Shinji by the head to berate him and then look at how the fight with Sachiel goes down.

Point being people are almost as alien and scary to the poor kid as the Angels are.

And hell, EoE makes the humanity/Angel parallel super explicit.

Misato posted:

Misato:
They plan to initiate Third Impact - not with Angels, but by using the Eva series.
15 years ago, Second Impact was caused by humans on purpose.
(Flashed shot: Second Impact)
But that was in order to minimize the damage by returning Adam (flashed image: Giant of Light) to an embryonic state (flashed image: Embryo in attache case) before the other Angels awoke.
(flashed image: graves)
Shinji, we humans were born from a being called Lilith, who is the source of life just like Adam. We are the 18th Angel. (flashed image: DNA) The other Angels are possibilities of what we might have become - humans that gave up human form. (flashed image: Kaworu - Rei)
Sadly, we had to reject each other - even though we're all human...

Listen, Shinji... You must destroy all of the Eva series. It's the only
way to stay alive.

Izumi Konata
May 4, 2012

by Ralp

Midjack posted:

The blood wasn't often blue colored but when they showed up on NERV's sensors there was always a cry of "BLOOD TYPE BLUE, IT'S AN ANGEL!"

I believe you've been misled by the drawings in biology books where veins and unoxygenated blood are represented in blue while arteries and oxygenated blood are represented in red - this is even carried through in dissection labs where the animals veins are injected with a blue rubber compound and the arteries are injected with red.

Human blood is made up of a liquid part and a solid part. The liquid part, when it is still in the body, is called plasma. It is yellowish in color. It makes up about 50 - 60 % of our blood.
The solid part is made up of cells; red blood cells, white blood cells
and platelets.

White blood cells and platelets have no color but appear white when they are grouped together, as when blood is separated in a centrifuge. Together they make up less than 1 % of the blood. They are pictured in text books as having a variety of colors. This is because they can be stained with various dyes after they are removed from the body then placed on a glass slide.

Red blood cells are always red. Since red blood cells make up about 40-45% of our blood, the blood is red. Red blood cells are red because they have a protein called hemoglobin which contains iron. Iron likes to bind oxygen. Oxygen combined with iron is red. The more oxygen iron has bound to it, the redder it is.

Veins appear blue because light, penetrating the skin, is absorbed and reflected back to the eye. Since only the higher energy wavelengths can do this (lower energy wavelengths just don't have the *oomph*), only higher energy wavelengths are seen. And higher energy wavelengths are what we call "blue."

Szmitten
Apr 26, 2008

Raxivace posted:

And hell, EoE makes the humanity/Angel parallel super explicit.

My memories on the internet of the line you bolded are a terrible clusterfuck because that line got mistranslated or misinterpreted a whole bunch.

Shinjobi
Jul 10, 2008


Gravy Boat 2k

Izumi Konata posted:

I believe you've been misled by the drawings in biology books where veins and unoxygenated blood are represented in blue while arteries and oxygenated blood are represented in red - this is even carried through in dissection labs where the animals veins are injected with a blue rubber compound and the arteries are injected with red.

Human blood is made up of a liquid part and a solid part. The liquid part, when it is still in the body, is called plasma. It is yellowish in color. It makes up about 50 - 60 % of our blood.
The solid part is made up of cells; red blood cells, white blood cells
and platelets.

White blood cells and platelets have no color but appear white when they are grouped together, as when blood is separated in a centrifuge. Together they make up less than 1 % of the blood. They are pictured in text books as having a variety of colors. This is because they can be stained with various dyes after they are removed from the body then placed on a glass slide.

Red blood cells are always red. Since red blood cells make up about 40-45% of our blood, the blood is red. Red blood cells are red because they have a protein called hemoglobin which contains iron. Iron likes to bind oxygen. Oxygen combined with iron is red. The more oxygen iron has bound to it, the redder it is.

Veins appear blue because light, penetrating the skin, is absorbed and reflected back to the eye. Since only the higher energy wavelengths can do this (lower energy wavelengths just don't have the *oomph*), only higher energy wavelengths are seen. And higher energy wavelengths are what we call "blue."

okay smart guy explain the blue blood of Rahxephon now

Safety Biscuits
Oct 21, 2010

Midjack posted:

The blood wasn't often blue colored but when they showed up on NERV's sensors there was always a cry of "BLOOD TYPE BLUE, IT'S AN ANGEL!"

And indeed in the lovely thread title.

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

The series visually links those two scenarios -- look at the scene where Misato grabs Shinji by the head to berate him and then look at how the fight with Sachiel goes down.

Point being people are almost as alien and scary to the poor kid as the Angels are.

Dammit I used to have a picture demonstrating this, but I can't find it now.

nehezir
Aug 9, 2011

Stalwart Guardian of the Lewd

Shinjobi posted:

okay smart guy explain the blue blood of Rahxephon now

freaky alien genotype fluids devised to identify the otherwise identical to humans Mu.

it doesn't need a scientific explanation because it's just a science fantasy plot device.

Shinjobi
Jul 10, 2008


Gravy Boat 2k
You are no fun.

nehezir
Aug 9, 2011

Stalwart Guardian of the Lewd

Shinjobi posted:

You are no fun.

I get that pretty often

Izumi Konata
May 4, 2012

by Ralp

nehezir posted:

freaky alien genotype fluids devised to identify the otherwise identical to humans Mu.

it doesn't need a scientific explanation because it's just a science fantasy plot device.

is it pronounced "rocks-a-floppin'", or "raw say fawn", smart guy?

Raxivace
Sep 9, 2014

Szmitten posted:

My memories on the internet of the line you bolded are a terrible clusterfuck because that line got mistranslated or misinterpreted a whole bunch.

Wouldn't be a 90's anime otherwise. :P

nehezir
Aug 9, 2011

Stalwart Guardian of the Lewd

Izumi Konata posted:

is it pronounced "rocks-a-floppin'", or "raw say fawn", smart guy?

nah, It's Ray Zey Fone

point of return
Aug 13, 2011

by exmarx
The blue blood in both Eva and RX are both references to an earlier science fiction story, I thought

mellowjournalism
Jul 31, 2004

helllooo

nehezir posted:

well, poo poo. I really need to re-watch the series. I'm holding off on the rebuild movies until they're all out.

Just watch em now they're shot for shot remakes so actually kinda boring tbh

Sakurazuka
Jan 24, 2004

NANI?

yellowjournalism posted:

Just watch em now they're shot for shot remakes so actually kinda boring tbh

lol did you only watch the first one or what?

Jostiband
May 7, 2007

Sakurazuka posted:

lol did you only watch the first one or what?

Why you gotta ruin a good thing man? :(

Sakurazuka
Jan 24, 2004

NANI?

It's probably even more dumb if he was trying to trick someone into watching them like that.

nehezir
Aug 9, 2011

Stalwart Guardian of the Lewd

point of return posted:

The blue blood in both Eva and RX are both references to an earlier science fiction story, I thought
if you ever remember what it was, I'd be down for watching or reading it.

Srice
Sep 11, 2011

Sakurazuka posted:

It's probably even more dumb if he was trying to trick someone into watching them like that.

I've finally found it, the sort of anime trickery dumber than the way people used to sell Madoka.

.jpg
Jan 18, 2011

Srice posted:

I've finally found it, the sort of anime trickery dumber than the way people used to sell Madoka.

Congratulations!

SHISHKABOB
Nov 30, 2012

Fun Shoe

Sakurazuka posted:

lol did you only watch the first one or what?

It's not cool to start sentences with "lol".

Sakurazuka
Jan 24, 2004

NANI?

SHISHKABOB posted:

It's not cool to start sentences with "lol".

Sorry.

'Lol did you only watch the first one or what?'

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Midjack
Dec 24, 2007



yellowjournalism posted:

Just watch em now they're shot for shot remakes so actually kinda boring tbh

Yellow Journalism indeed!

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