|
Raxivace posted:I don't really think a fourth movie is even needed to be honest, though I wouldn't be opposed to it existing. The three Rebuilds already form a fairly complete story.
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 16:57
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 3, 2024 19:28 |
|
|
Raxivace posted:I don't really think a fourth movie is even needed to be honest, though I wouldn't be opposed to it existing. The three Rebuilds already form a fairly complete story. They're a complete story, but not one I really care for, if the ultimate ending is "the people Shinji should have been able to count on to look after him were consumed by their own neuroses and issues and used, abused, and ultimately broke him. He will forever roam the earth as a heartbroken and pitiful fuckup. The End." I don't need 4.0 to be a fix fic or anything, but if 3.0 is where it ends then that's just a really bleak and hopeless story.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 16:58
|
|
|
Raxivace posted:I don't really think a fourth movie is even needed to be honest, though I wouldn't be opposed to it existing. The three Rebuilds already form a fairly complete story. Rebuild 3 ended with a bunch of questions and nothing resolved 
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 17:04
|
|
|
Nate RFB posted:I will agree to disagree with a lot of opinions here on 3.0 but this is straight up crazy talk. Spiritus Nox posted:They're a complete story, but not one I really care for, if the ultimate ending is "the people Shinji should have been able to count on to look after him were consumed by their own neuroses and issues and used, abused, and ultimately broke him. He will forever roam the earth as a heartbroken and pitiful fuckup. The End." I don't need 4.0 to be a fix fic or anything, but if 3.0 is where it ends then that's just a really bleak and hopeless story. Sakurazuka posted:Rebuild 3 ended with a bunch of questions and nothing resolved
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 17:44
|
|
|
Raxivace posted:I don't really think it's completely hopeless- the movie still ends with Asuka picking Shinji up out of his gooncave where he lies curled up, and telling him that they're going to "go to where the Lilin are"- aka go back to society, and presumably reintegrate with the people there and figure out how to deal with the rest of their lives. The fourth movie could completely change directions here and have sharks and giant moths eat everyone or something, but as it is the ending still presents the possibility of life improving for the surviving characters. That's a one tiny glimmer, man. The guy is so broken that he can't speak and can only barely move by the end of that movie. Asuka's literally dragging him along. It's theoretically possible, sure, but the movie doesn't really show Shinji actually learning and accepting anything that would actually help him put his life back together. You may as well say "well...he's not dead...
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 17:50
|
|
|
Our heroes are ostensibly stranded and WILLE hasn't finished its fight against NERV. Shinji's character arc could be "done" (I don't think it is, but whatever let's go with that) to say nothing of the smaller unanswered questions like Mari's whole deal but the overarching story hasn't reached its destination in the slightest.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 17:52
|
|
|
Nate RFB posted:I will agree to disagree with a lot of opinions here on 3.0 but this is straight up crazy talk. Yeah even if you don't give a poo poo about the overall plot Shenji arc is only halfway done. He is at his low point it would be like ending the original at like 20.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 17:53
|
|
|
Nate RFB posted:Our heroes are ostensibly stranded and WILLE hasn't finished its fight against NERV. Shinji's character arc could be "done" (I don't think it is, but whatever let's go with that) to say nothing of the smaller unanswered questions like Mari's whole deal but the overarching story hasn't reached its destination in the slightest. To play devil's advocate, the original show didn't really resolve the overarching story either. 
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 17:56
|
|
|
Nate RFB posted:I will agree to disagree with a lot of opinions here on 3.0 but this is straight up crazy talk.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 17:57
|
|
|
CharlestheHammer posted:Yeah even if you don't give a poo poo about the overall plot Shenji arc is only halfway done. He is at his low point it would be like ending the original at like 20. Did he ever actually reach a high point?
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 18:30
|
|
|
If nothing else, Mari functions as someone for Asuka to have a positive, friendly rivalry with. Good enough for me.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 18:32
|
|
|
Spiritus Nox posted:That's a one tiny glimmer, man. The guy is so broken that he can't speak and can only barely move by the end of that movie. Asuka's literally dragging him along. It's theoretically possible, sure, but the movie doesn't really show Shinji actually learning and accepting anything that would actually help him put his life back together. You may as well say "well...he's not dead... , just that it wasn't completely hopeless. A glimmer is still something- plenty of movies end with characters not even having that much. Nate RFB posted:Our heroes are ostensibly stranded and WILLE hasn't finished its fight against NERV. Shinji's character arc could be "done" (I don't think it is, but whatever let's go with that) to say nothing of the smaller unanswered questions like Mari's whole deal but the overarching story hasn't reached its destination in the slightest.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 19:00
|
|
|
I like to think that Mari is the incarnation of what fans want.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 19:02
|
|
|
Gammatron 64 posted:I like to think that Mari is the incarnation of what fans want. I really think she is there exactly for that. She is sexy, confident, brave, but also she is in it for herself and she doesn't take poo poo from anyone. She is the perfect Mari sue character.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 19:27
|
|
|
Raxivace posted:What "destination" are you referring to?
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 19:31
|
|
|
Slime posted:Did he ever actually reach a high point? The congratulations can be seen as a high point. Acceptance is the bare minimum at least. Three doesn't even give you that.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 19:34
|
|
|
Nate RFB posted:NERVE/WILLE finishing their thing and our main trio getting back to civilization would be the bare minimum, again assuming you think all of the character arcs are finished which is not something I'd agree with in general. I mean come on even before we touch on Shinji they did a lot of weird stuff with Rei in 3.0 that felt like set-up for something else down the road. Shinji already got to civilization. It sucked, almost caused the end of the world, and now he is being led away by the hand by Asuka into the desert.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 19:50
|
|
|
You'd think that they'd get out of the desert too, some day. It'd certainly be a little weird if the conflict with NERV were resolved with all of the main pilots AWOL, though hey maybe that's how we'll finally get to know to know what Mari's deal is since she'd be the only one left.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 19:59
|
|
|
The_Rob posted:I really think she is there exactly for that. She is sexy, confident, brave, but also she is in it for herself and she doesn't take poo poo from anyone. She is the perfect Mari sue character. Mari has glasses, the biggest tits, but is also very likely a sociopath and basically says all the poo poo that nerds who don't really "get" the show are thinking. A friend of mine told me this, and I dunno if he made it up himself or if he got it from somewhere, but it's actually kind of brilliant.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 19:59
|
|
|
Gammatron 64 posted:Mari has glasses, the biggest tits, but is also very likely a sociopath and basically says all the poo poo that nerds who don't really "get" the show are thinking. A friend of mine told me this, and I dunno if he made it up himself or if he got it from somewhere, but it's actually kind of brilliant. Mari's origins are whatever (she's a friend of Yui's with a crush on her, yes, really) but her role is half meta commentary and half sidekick for Asuka. Given this is Anno we are talking about, I'm not sure she'll ever stop being a ~mysterious~ fanservicey quipper in the movies, just to drive people nuts.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 20:24
|
|
|
The_Rob posted:I really think she is there exactly for that. She is sexy, confident, brave, but also she is in it for herself and she doesn't take poo poo from anyone. She is the perfect Mari sue character. Stuff like this is really my biggest problem with Eva. The, for lack of a better word, metafictional elements seem like mostly an excuse to show a tweens tits or underwear. It wouldnt even bother me if these werent literal kids, the degree to which the show panders to that kind of fan while playing it off as detached and almost satirical just didnt work for me.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 20:30
|
|
|
Nate RFB posted:You'd think that they'd get out of the desert too, some day. It'd certainly be a little weird if the conflict with NERV were resolved with all of the main pilots AWOL, though hey maybe that's how we'll finally get to know to know what Mari's deal is since she'd be the only one left. *looks at End of Evangelion* hmmm yes I see.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 20:34
|
|
|
Gammatron 64 posted:That said, a lot of people didn't exactly get the memo so there's an enormous amount of merchandise of Rei and Asuka in sexual poses and outfits that pathetic nerds jerk off to. What if.....they do understand, but the people who make it don't give a poo poo and want to make money and the people who jack off don't think about the character arcs while doing so? 
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 20:41
|
|
|
SHISHKABOB posted:*looks at End of Evangelion* hmmm yes I see.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 20:47
|
|
|
Yeah, EOE is rather explicit about what happens to everyone, it's not a great comparison to a 3-movie Rebuild. "Everyone got turned into Tang, except for Shinji and Asuka. Shinji then tries to kill Asuka because he's a broken person who's incapable of processing his feelings for her, and fails because he's an EXTREMELY broken person who is UTTERLY incapable of processing his feelings for her. Asuka is grossed out. Maybe the rest of humanity will come back some day? the end"
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 20:51
|
|
|
Nate RFB posted:Glad you agree. After all, all the main conflicts and stories got wrapped up quite nicely in that movie. Yeah 3.0 was no EoE that's for sure.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2016 21:39
|
|
|
Sakurazuka posted:I feel the opposite, 2 is great but I start nodding off during the middle bit of 3 and actually one of the reasons I don't want to write 2 off is how often I see this reaction, it's kinda neat how consistently 2 and 3 seem to cut in half what is appealing about eva to people. if 4 ends up doing something with this idea the whole rebuild project could come together beautifully
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 07:45
|
|
|
SHISHKABOB posted:Yeah 3.0 was no EoE that's for sure. to be fair, what is? although I disagree with the notion that EoE 'wrapped things up' in any kind of conventional way. by most TV standards we're still left with a million seemingly important 'unanswered questions' although of course eva fans tend to understand these days that those unanswered questions about the mechanics and trivia of the show aren't at all what's important Mia Wasikowska fucked around with this message at 08:00 on Jul 16, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 07:58
|
|
|
it's worth keeping in mind that EoE 20 years ago was such a different thing than EoE today. so much of what was radical that was introduced in EoE has sort of trickled down into the rest of anime and now we almost see them as cliches (although everything is so bold and striking and unique in EoE the total effect will never feel that way) but what I'm saying I guess is that we have a big context to understand EoE that the original viewers didn't have, and so I wonder if the same might be true of the rebuilds. there are things in 3.33 that make me suspect Anno is once again moving beyond what is conventional, and while I doubt the rebuild project will be an influence on the conventions of the next decades in the same way EoE was, I think it will definitely be much easier to understand when 4 is finished and we can all kind of sit back and figure out what the whole thing is doing and what is going on Mia Wasikowska fucked around with this message at 08:09 on Jul 16, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 08:07
|
|
|
and then, on the completeness of a thing, I think this is where the meta aspect of the rebuilds really opens up, and you can tie it back to EoE pretty easily. after all, forget EoE - wasn't the show itself complete? I've always thought so, and I was happy to find that Kazuya Tsurumaki, the #2 guy, felt this even more. And then at the end of an interview for EoE, he says this: -- Finally, do you have some message for the fans? KT - Don't drag the past around. Find the next thing that interests you. -- Does that mean not becoming fixated on "Evangelion"? KT - Yes. It's always better to let something that has finished end. I mean, I'm glad Anno made EoE because it's his masterpiece and wonderful, but then also at the time there was the unmistakable sense that Anno had gone as far as he possibly could with the materia, said everything he possibly could say on the subject, and from multiple angles, and to do anything more would be pushing past absurd. I'm paraphrasing here, but didn't Miyazaki say to Anno "You can't just be the guy who made Eva anymore, you have to move on" and Anno laughed and agreed as if like to say "I'm way ahead of you" he had presumably heard that "it's always better to let something that has finished end" before from Kazuya Tsurumaki, if Anno himself wasn't the originator of that idea among the key eva people in the first place. but then, here we are, and more films are being made. And it makes sense, and it seems artistically legit, so why is that? I think it must be that Anno has something worthwhile to say about repetition and revisiting things, and also about the way things end. there's already a lot of terrific evidence that he's thinking along these lines in 3. so we'll see how 4 turns out. Mia Wasikowska fucked around with this message at 08:46 on Jul 16, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 08:32
|
|
|
Slime posted:Did he ever actually reach a high point? You could make a case that him deciding he was going to go all out and save Rei no matter what in the second Rebuild movie was basically his highest point. It was pretty much the first and only time that he wholeheartedly threw all of himself into accomplishing something, and it was for the sake of someone else who he believed he cared about and cared about him. Misato shouting and cheering him on supports this. I mean, it turned out really terribly for everyone involved, but Shinji had no way of knowing that when he did it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 12:08
|
|
|
Sakurazuka posted:Rebuild 3 ended with a bunch of questions and nothing resolved Hi! Welcome to Evangelion! [Evangelion Thread: Ended with a bunch of questions and nothing resolved]
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 12:49
|
|
|
Ak Gara posted:Hi! Welcome to Evangelion! This really should become the last post whenever this thread is ultimately closed.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 15:21
|
|
|
Kanos posted:You could make a case that him deciding he was going to go all out and save Rei no matter what in the second Rebuild movie was basically his highest point. It was pretty much the first and only time that he wholeheartedly threw all of himself into accomplishing something, and it was for the sake of someone else who he believed he cared about and cared about him. Misato shouting and cheering him on supports this. Yeah, it's a genuinely heroic move by Shinji. Even if his motives are still really confused, there's still that core facet of him risking everything to save someone he cares about, and telling Rei how important she is to him when she's talking about how she's disposable is a genuinely heartfelt moment. I mean, he's willing to let the rest of the world burn to save her, sure, but considering that this was coming off of being willing to walk away and let the world burn entirely....you know, baby steps.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 17:26
|
|
|
Spiritus Nox posted:Yeah, it's a genuinely heroic move by Shinji. Even if his motives are still really confused, there's still that core facet of him risking everything to save someone he cares about, and telling Rei how important she is to him when she's talking about how she's disposable is a genuinely heartfelt moment. I mean, he's willing to let the rest of the world burn to save her, sure, but considering that this was coming off of being willing to walk away and let the world burn entirely....you know, baby steps. There's an idea K. Waste from CineD occasionally mentions about how there's a step past "putting the needs of the many ahead of the needs of the few," which is "putting the needs of all ahead of the needs of the many." Shinji acts to save the person the rest of the world, including himself up to a few minutes prior, was willing to sacrifice for their own good. He does this despite the dangers -- to himself as well as everyone else -- but not to even try would have been worse, morally speaking. "What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray?"
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 19:01
|
|
|
Something can be both heroic and selfish, I think is something that gets overlooked with Evangelion as a whole. A lot of characters have actions that are legitimately brave, important and necessary but undertake them for reasons which are narrow, selfish and shortsighted. This is an important part of Evangelion both the series and Rebuild. It's possible to do something brave and still be doing it for selfish reasons. It's possible to do something morally correct and still be doing it for selfish reasons. Super Robot characters tend to have a lot of heroism for the sake of heroism. Evangelion emphasizes that a lot of those characters would be selfish, hosed-up or damaged even if they want to save the world. Shinji pilots the Evangelion but not to save the world. It does it for the approval of others and usually those he is close to. Asuka pilots the Evangelion not to save the world but because she desperately desires validation and it is the only thing that gives it to her. Shinji saving Rei is a heroic action but a heroic action undertaken for fundamentally selfish and self-centered reasons. Shinji saves Rei for himself. Because the thought of losing Rei, the thought of being without Rei, the thought of all those things is too painful, even if Rei is simultaneously someone who people would understandably want to save. Evangelion wants to look at where the line is. Is there a meaningful difference between Shinji being willing to drat the world (even if he wasn't aware how literal that consequence was) to recover Ayanami and his father who is KNOWINGLY damning the world to recover Ayanami? Of course there is but the question is what that is and does it matter to anyone but themselves. A lot of anime and anime-inspired stuff has characters willing to take huge and often insanely dangerous risks to save a friend or loved one and it is usually portrayed as flat-heroic and necessary. Rebuild goes "Okay, so what if you hosed up? Are you able to deal with those consequences? Was it really heroic to take huge risks for personal gain? Are you willing to hurt when it fails?" We accept it as a given the hero will succeed and Rebuild decides to go "nah, he didn't, so now what? Is his action still heroic when it failed?" And it's fair to say that isn't an easy answer. A hero who fails at the most desperate hour isn't a common thing in fiction for obvious reasons unless it's the backstory for another. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Jul 16, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 19:15
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:Shinji pilots the Evangelion but not to save the world. It does it for the approval of others and usually those he is close to. Asuka pilots the Evangelion not to save the world but because she desperately desires validation and it is the only thing that gives it to her. Shinji saving Rei is a heroic action but a heroic action undertaken for fundamentally selfish and self-centered reasons. Shinji saves Rei for himself. Because the thought of losing Rei, the thought of being without Rei, the thought of all those things is too painful, even if Rei is simultaneously someone who people would understandably want to save. I mean, I get where you're going with this, but you could use this line of argument to deny the existence of altruism entirely. I mean, literally even the nicest possible action any person could ever make could be reduced to wanting the warm fuzzies that person gets from making others happy, if you were feeling sufficiently reductive. I don't think Shinji is devoid of interest in Rei's happiness - I think it plays into why he tells her that she, specifically she, Rei II, is unique and important to him while he's pulling her out of Zeruel, and I also think it's part of why he's so distraught to be met with the borderline lifeless Rei III in 3.0. You could reduce that to "Oh, Shinji only wants Rei to be happy because her happiness makes him happy," sure, but I don't really see the practical benefit of raising that distinction. Spiritus Nox fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Jul 16, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 19:24
|
|
|
When Gendo meets Yui in EoE, he talks about his own failures as a person, his inadequacies, his fear of even trying to relate to Shinji, his belief that she's the only one who could ever love him, etc. When Shinji pulls Rei out of the Angel's core in Rebuild 2, he tells her that she's irreplaceable, that it'll be okay, and thanks her for trying to bridge the gap with his father. It's not about "damning the world," it's about refusing to make the devil's choice between killing the world by inaction and actively murdering your best friend.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 19:34
|
|
|
Spiritus Nox posted:I mean, I get where you're going with this, but you could use this line of argument to deny the existence of altruism entirely. I mean, literally even the nicest possible action any person could ever make could be reduced to wanting the warm fuzzies that person gets from making others happy, if you were feeling sufficiently reductive. I don't think Shinji is devoid of interest in Rei's happiness - I think it plays into why he tells her that she, specifically she, Rei II, is important to him when he's pulling here out of Zeruel, and I also think it's part of why he's so distraught to be met with the borderline lifeless Rei III in 3.0. You could reduce that to "Oh, Shinji only wants Rei to be happy because her happiness makes him happy," sure, but I don't really see the practical benefit of raising that distinction. Shinji obviously cares about Rei and in specific that Rei. However "I care about this person so much I'm willing to do anything for them" can be just as easily a villain's motivation as a hero's and being unable and unwilling to accept a horrible consequence has motivated as many bad guys as good guys. Evangelion obviously doesn't go "Well, Shinji's a BAD GUY now" because he isn't. The criticism Rebuild has of Shinji isn't that Shinji screwed up. The characters hate him for it obviously but the actual movie is careful to put the audience in a sympathetic mindset for what happened. Where Rebuild gets critical of Shinji is that he's unable to accept that. "A terrible thing happened, I can fix it... okay, that made it worse but I can fix it. I can keep fixing it and fixing it until it's fixed!" An important thing to recall about Rebuild 2.0 is that Rei was alone on the battlefield because Shinji left. Unlike in the show, there was nobody around to back her up. (Mari obviously did that but nobody knew Mari was gonna Evajack.) Shinji did abandon Rei. By the time he was back Rei was already 'dead' and that was the start of the consequence-train. Remember that what gets Shinji back in action is seeing that he already failed Rei. He doesn't talk to Kaji in this version. Mari busts in, goes "I wonder why we were one pilot short" and then they see Rei get destroyed.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 19:48
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 3, 2024 19:28 |
|
|
Oh yeah, that's all true. I just wanted to be clear that it's not a clean equivalency between Shinji, who seems to genuinely care about people in general and his friends in particular despite how terrified he can be of them and how ill equipped he is to deal with the horrors they're faced with and Gendo, who has no particular attachment to anyone left in the world and in Rebuild in particular seems actively hostile to most everyone in it. Gendo is so selfishly obsessed with seeing Yui again that he actively, knowingly hurts and consumes everyone else around him despite what Yui would probably want. There's enough parallels that Shinji could grow into that, obviously, but as of 3.0 there are still huge, meaningful differences between the two.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2016 20:16
|
|