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Amstrad posted:I just caught up with this whole Rebuild thing and watched 1.11 and 2.22 and I gotta say, anything that makes Shinji into a somewhat likeable character is doing it right. Shinji was likeable at the beginning of the television series, too. People just forget because the last time they saw him was EoE.
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Apr 12, 2013 23:09
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Regalingualius posted:Except for the first episode, where most of the people I know that've watched the series think he's a giant brat. How many of them watched it when they teenagers themselves, or went in expecting a traditional giant robot show? If you don't get fixated on how "whiny" Shinji is, his actions and motivations for about the first quarter of the show are brave if not outright heroic. They even lampshade the typical audience reaction in the way Touji treats him, right up until he experiences Eva combat for himself and realizes how horrifying it is. It's not until much later that Shinji's beaten down to a more selfish and anxiety-driven position. You might argue it was always there, but on the other hand in the first episode he's ready to defy his father and go home -- it's the thought of Rei suffering that makes him pilot the Eva for the first time, not Gendo's approval. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Apr 12, 2013 |
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Apr 12, 2013 23:26
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Dr_Amazing posted:I watched the show and one of the movies. I didn't get it at all. Is there a good source that explains what was going on at the end? Shinji has the choice between accumulating all of mankind into a godlike hive-mind with no individuality (but also no suffering or fear), or going back. He almost commits to the former but realizes at the last moment that it's wrong and backs down. He goes back to being human, and therefore angry, terrified, hosed up, etc. I could go into more detail if you wanted but everything beyond what I just said is conjecture and loose interpretation. In fact, you could probably find people who don't even agree with that much.
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Apr 21, 2013 08:48
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Cardboard Box A posted:That he wants to have his cake and eat it too doesn't make it less likely or less explanatory though. See also Zack Snyder and Sucker Punch. Sucker Punch is a lot more explicitly meta-textual than Evangelion is. It's a story about a story about exploitation, and how fictional worlds exert influence on both other fictional worlds and on reality. Accordingly, a meta-textual reading has a lot more explanatory power re: Sucker Punch, compared to Evangelion where it tells you basically fuckall. Which is why I roll my eyes a little every time someone mentions that theory even if I don't strictly disagree. EDIT: Although if you really want to find an audience surrogate character, there's a much more fitting choice than Shinji: it's Misato. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 13:15 on Apr 21, 2013 |
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Apr 21, 2013 12:46
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I've got a whole lot of objections to this line of thought, not least of which that the "happy ending" of the TV ending is kicked off by Shinji murdering the only person to unconditionally care for him, and that rejecting Instrumentality in EoE is in my opinion both presented as and genuinely the correct decision, which combined with the "all souls can return if they wish" makes the symbolic erasure of the audience a much subtler statement than "gently caress YOU ALL." But I'm barely awake and I haven't actually watched the videos yet so I'll hold off a bit.
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Apr 25, 2013 01:27
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I said something like this in the old thread: the remarkable thing about the scene where Shinji strangles Asuka isn't that he tries to kill her. The Instrumentality sequence itself has at least one scene where they express their loathing for each other, IIRC Asuka even says she'd rather die than erase the boundary between them. (Well, not explicitly, the scene's constructed so she could be talking about anything from Instrumentality to sex to simply co-existing. But they're degrees of the same thing, at least for this purpose.) But no -- the remarkable thing is that he stops. He killed the Angels, he killed Kaworu, Unit-01 kills (giant naked) Rei and it's not really clear if that's under Shinji or Yui's agency, and he initiated Instrumentality by wishing for his own / everyone's death. But he backs down from killing Asuka. It's the smallest possible optimism, and god knows Asuka isn't impressed, but it's a start.
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Apr 25, 2013 03:13
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I'm also generally hostile to any interpretation of the series that says "Shinji just needs to own up to his mistakes and everything will be okay" when the series establishes right from the first episode that Shinji is being broken, molded, and manipulated by at least two adult figures who can't even agree on exactly what they want him to do. What are his mistakes, exactly? They can't be in his actual plot-relevant actions, because all of those are devil's choices like "get in the robot and suffer pain and terror OR force it off onto the cute injured girl instead" or "murder your friend and confidant in cold blood OR all of humanity dies." That just leaves his attitude, and honestly "everyone despises me unless I'm obedient and excel at something I hate, so that's what I'll do" isn't a mistake, it's an accurate assessment of his situation. You could blame him for not reaching out to people, except that everyone he reaches out to in the series dies (Rei, Kaworu, Kaji), is alienated from him as a result of things he couldn't have avoided (Touji, Kensuke), or is too busy having a crisis of their own to help (Misato for sure, arguably Asuka as well.) I mean, really, what am I missing? Setting aside the jerk-off scene (which is reprehensible, but happens in the context of a nervous breakdown), how often does Shinji a) have actual agency AND b) do the wrong thing with it? (EDIT: That Kazuya Tsurumaki interview seems to imply that "failure to communicate properly" is what they had in mind, but if you ask me that failure is epidemic across the entire cast, which is very different from blaming Shinji specifically and using him as a kind of effigy for anime nerds and Anno himself.) --- Rebuild is another story, because trying to save Rei is entirely his own decision, among other small things leading up to it. But if they try to portray that as "selfish" and wrong then gently caress 'em, I'll send Anno polite and articulate hatemail myself, and stick Evangelion next to Gurren Lagann on the list of Gainax shows I vehemently disagree with. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 04:38 on Apr 25, 2013 |
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Apr 25, 2013 04:22
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The Riddle of Feel posted:There's also the problem of cultural expectations. For the Western viewer it's obvious that Shinji is ultimately not responsible for anything that happens to him or around him, and it's all the fault of the amazingly malicious, incompetent and predatory adults in his life, including his monster of a father and his batshit crazy mother. I dunno, personally I'd be thrilled to hear him say "Screw you, you're not blaming this on me." Especially if it came right before some kind of truly independent action; I can hardly think of a more fitting catharsis. The Riddle of Feel posted:Again, it doesn't matter. Shinji could not defend himself, even though he could provide a perfectly valid defense (namely, you people put me in a machine you don't understand, gave me only the most rudimentary training, never warned me about the potential consequences of my actions, and encouraged me to do what I was doing) ... although once you put it in the context of killing babies or wiping out 90% of mankind, it gets a little harder to refute. I'm glad you raised this point because I totally overlooked it, but it's kind of disappointing because if he still isn't permitted to take actions on his own responsibility, then Rebuild isn't nearly as much of a departure as I thought. EDIT: I suppose the other radical alternative would be to say "I'd do it again!" and embrace the guilt completely, which sounds horrific but might be relevant in light of the whole "Rebuild is a sequel" thing. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 05:09 on Apr 25, 2013 |
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Apr 25, 2013 04:56
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Sakurazuka posted:Stupid, I guess. Thanks for the insightful reply though! Just off the top of my head... Shinji no longer has any sync ratio with Unit-01. Asuka has an better reason than ever to hate Shinji, but has matured enough to help and maybe even forgive him. Gendo killed SEELE which basically rules out a direct repeat of EoE. Mari is old enough to have known Yui when Shinji was born. Rei is still alive post-Third Impact, albeit without memories. (I think/hope they're going for a double-fakeout here, Shinji accepted that it isn't "really" her awfully quickly.) "Hope and atonement."
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Apr 27, 2013 16:30
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Regarding Rei, I don't necessarily mean physically. It's not like the degree to which each of Rei's incarnations is distinct from the others (or even from Yui) was ever made clear to begin with, and who knows what's actually up with the tape recorder.
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Apr 27, 2013 18:58
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FakeBlood posted:Aside from the Curse Of Eva (or whatever) what do you mean? did i miss a major point where they show that she knows Yui? Mari, or someone who looks just like her, is in the photo that Fuyutsuki gives Shinji. Then later she tells Rei something along the lines of "You know, your original was a lot easier to get along with."
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Apr 27, 2013 19:38
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The Riddle of Feel posted:It's more likely that the -nami girls are all clones. I think she's really just that old. She doesn't have the achromia thing going on that Rei and Kaworu do as artificial humans, her "original" comment implies she has clear memories going all the way back, she has an incredible amount of experience and confidence re: Eva piloting compared to Shinji or even Asuka, plus in the absence of more concrete evidence it's the explanation with the fewest assumptions. single-mode fiber posted:zillion percent chance it contains her soul I hope so, and that it's restorable, but Rei has gotten hosed so many times in Evangelion that it wouldn't surprise me if it's a dead end. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Apr 27, 2013 |
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Apr 27, 2013 20:11
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FiftySeven posted:I agree with this, Its too old to be Mari and it looks a hell of a lot like Asuka. No, she really doesn't. And the age thing is pretty easily explained if Evangelion pilots don't age. For reference, here's the picture: http://i.imgur.com/Nv0w1xv.jpg And here are a bunch of Mari: http://wiki.evageeks.org/Mari_Makinami_Illustrious Mari has the same glasses, the same hair, the same face shape, the same color scheme. I mean she might conceivably be Mari's mother or clone stock or whatever, but she's definitely the one she's related to. I don't think we ever get a good look at Asuka's mother in any media, but her page has this as a portrait: http://wiki.evageeks.org/Kyoko_Zeppelin_Soryu Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Apr 27, 2013 |
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Apr 27, 2013 23:20
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Paracelsus posted:I still get the feeling that if anyone in Wille had bothered to tell Shinji anything at all about what had happened and what they knew about what was going on, things would have turned out differently. "Brat Shinji!" is not a very good way to convince someone to stop what they're doing. Well, Rebuild Shinji is child-like. This is emphasized throughout the movies, for instance when Gendo dismisses his hijacking Unit-01 to attack NERV HQ as a childish tantrum. Of course Gendo of all people knows that Shinji is in no position to make informed, adult decisions because he relies on Shinji being incapable of making them. Misato is more complicated; on the one hand, she actually cares about Shinji. On the other hand, from the very beginning of the TV series she's used Shinji as a tool in her revenge against the Angels and lived vicariously through his successes. Third Impact is basically Gendo taking her toy away and using it for himself, and she reacts to this as if Shinji personally betrayed her. But the time of 3I itself, she was cheering him on. So in 3.33 she treats him like garbage, hands him a death sentence, and only begins to understand how badly she hosed up when Gendo once again uses his superior understanding of Shinji's psychology to snatch him away from her. (Incidentally one of the things that makes Rebuild Gendo even more hideously evil than series Gendo is that yeah, he absolutely understands what Shinji's going through. He's knowingly pushing his own trauma onto his son in order to cure himself of that trauma.) Kaworu is interesting because he's like a vision of what Shinji "ought" to be: sanguine, all-forgiving, ready to take on the guilt of the world. But it doesn't change anything. Kaworu is simultaneously just as manipulated and used as Shinji, and potentially complicit in his manipulation. He befriends Shinji, essentially by being the only person who treats him like a human being, then tells him he's to blame for everything, and nothing else. Not a word about SEELE, or Gendo, or anything else to put it in context: just "Even so, you did this." And it's not like Kaworu doesn't know; he's constantly muttering to himself about the "King of the Lilim," the spears, etc. He claims to be Shinji's friend, but he treats him, in every respect -- like a child. And it comes back to bite him in the rear end, because when the moment of truth comes along, Kaworu is paralyzed with indecision. Remember the scene with the piano, where Shinji is a total novice and Kaworu is a master? Piloting Unit-13 is supposed to be "just like that." Now, to be fair, he finally suggests that they back down and not do anything. This is after like half a (film) hour of guilt-tripping Shinji and pushing him down this exact path, but still, Shinji pulls out those spears on his own. And at least just before he dies, Kaworu gives Shinji some good advice: that what he needs is a place of peace where he can find his balance and think of a way to atone. And that's the crux of 3.33: Shinji slowly, painfully inching towards independence while every mistake he makes is amplified into cataclysm. A pretty decent metaphor for being a teenager, except that what should only be a disaster in his own mind is one for the whole planet because his parents and surrogate-parents are all abusive monsters. It's pretty obvious what the fix is, though: let him grow up. Conveniently, the Evangelions are literally machines that stop you from growing up; Misato is right, he has to get away from the things. I kind of need a rewatch so I can frame this more coherently, and also pay more attention to Asuka and Mari's role in 3.33, because they're the ones who actually want to offer him the chance to see the world and grow, in the end. And that's the most promising thing about 3.33's ending: Shinji is finally in the company of people who can help him until he's able to help himself. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 00:55 on Apr 28, 2013 |
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Apr 28, 2013 00:50
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FiftySeven posted:I dont get why you feel that its so certain. Mostly because Mari talks about knowing Rei's "original" later in the film. If I'm not misremembering, she never even met or spoke to Rei in Rebuild 1 or 2, so if not Yui, who is she talking about? I'll get you an exact quote and timestamp after I rewatch it with the UTW translation.
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Apr 28, 2013 01:13
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The Riddle of Feel posted:That could easily be a reference to an earlier clone. I doubt there will be a huge twist related to Mari because she's not that important of a character- she's mostly eye candy and a foil for Asuka. I don't really agree but considering it's going to be at least a year until we have any chance whatsoever of resolving this argument, I'd rather just drop it and talk about the stuff in my other post. 
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Apr 28, 2013 01:21
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Why are people assuming Misato activated the collar? They say right when the collar's first put on that it's set to automatically activate if it detects the wearer about to start an Awakening, which is exactly what happens.
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Apr 28, 2013 16:45
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HobbitGrease posted:- One thing I found myself wondering with Shinji and Eva in this movie was if it was so important that he not pilot Eva again because he caused Third Impact, why didn't Wille just tell him what happened fourteen years ago? I guess they kind of answered this by saying they needed to 'regulate his emotions' or whatever, but it felt like, "Hey, let's treat Shinji badly but make him act the way we want him to act. It worked out so well before!" If Evangelion were written by an American I would swear it's a metaphor for abstinence-only sex ed.
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Apr 28, 2013 17:29
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Shoehead posted:Or maybe he is being kept alive because Wille or Mitsado still think killing a 14 year old is too far? This is exactly what it is. This is the whole point of the scene where Shinji escapes, Misato isn't willing to kill him. Although that makes Asuka's comments about "the colonel's motto is human lives are expendable" and "All this fuss about one person" directed at Misato kind of intriguing. Is she reminding her, or giving her poo poo for it? Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Apr 28, 2013 |
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Apr 28, 2013 20:58
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The nearly averted Fourth Impact is definitely on his head, he went into that with more knowledge and initiative than he's ever had before. That there's a degree of collective guilt among everyone who pushed him down that path doesn't absolve him of walking it -- it's not like the series where everything was do-or-everyone dies, or like 2.22 where he couldn't reasonably have known the consequences of his actions. At the same time, though, the point here is not "well Shinji is just a lovely, worthless human being who causes disasters because he's so awful." That's a really mean-spirited, to say nothing of factually inaccurate observation. He's making common, normal mistakes for a 14-year-old (loving up personal relationships, not listening to good advice, trying to "undo" his errors rather than acknowledge them) -- mistakes which would be his responsibility even if he were living a normal life, but in a normal life they would be learning experiences and ultimately trivial. Instead the context of those mistakes make them crimes against all of humanity. To put it simply, it's not fair, but it's still his fault. Which brings us to Kaworu who... honestly, I've never understood Kaworu, and I still don't. His advice is all over the place. His message about atonement and no sin being beyond redemption is a good one, and I don't want to believe Rebuild is trying to say that that's a lie. But his idea of "hope" is pushing Shinji towards those spears, and he only backs down from it in a moment of crisis when Asuka is (at least apparently) trying to kill them. Gendo and Fuyutsuki seem confident that he's doing SEELE's will, and "I really was born to meet you!" is pretty ominous coming from an artificial human created by a doomsday cult. He goes from benevolent Christ figure to a meaningless fountain of technobabble -- Shinji straight up tells him "I don't understand what you're talking about!" This is totally in keeping with Eva's characterization of religion as hollow, but forgiveness transcends religion and shouldn't be thrown out with the bathwater. One thing's for certain, though: for all her anger, Asuka remains the most sympathetic character in Rebuild. Kaworu's inhuman sense of self and balance isn't something Shinji can emulate immediately, and considering the way Kaworu dies -- duped and cursing himself -- I don't know if it would help even if he could. When Shinji says he wants to change the world, Asuka tells him: "Then don't pilot!" and later "At least get to know how the world works first!" Even if she's still calling him an idiot and a brat, it's a mistake to compare this too closely to the series: she's saying that from a completely different perspective. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Apr 28, 2013 |
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Apr 28, 2013 22:59
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Also, I suspect the scene with Fuyutsuki is important to getting a handle on all of this. I don't know enough about Shogi to say if confidently predicting someone's loss 31 moves ahead is mathematically feasible, but at least it represents a staggering degree of superior understanding. The subtext here is pretty obvious: Fuyutsuki and Gendo have Shinji's life predicted and planned out to a literally prophetic degree. You could even get absurdly on-the-nose and compare his handicap to NERV's loss of Wille. The thing is, Fuyutsuki is an increasingly reluctant conspirator. He tries to talk Gendo into reaching out to his son, even though Gendo obviously doesn't care. He calls himself "timid" and admits he had to work up the courage to talk to Shinji, which if he isn't lying suggests that this talk wasn't part of plan. Also while Gendo's plan relies on manipulating Shinji emotionally, Fuyutsuki repeats a piece of Kaworu's advice: be calm if you want to win the battle. He subtly betrays Gendo (who threw out every physical artifact of Yui's) by handing Shinji her photograph, not to mention that the entire shogi scene takes place at the location of the contact experiment. Now, it's not likely that Fuyutsuki is actually working against Gendo's plan here -- he defends Gendo's plan to Shinji, and tells Gendo himself later that he'll "go along" with it for Yui's sake. But he doesn't have faith in it ("this is almost exactly what SEELE wanted!") and he's illustrated the nature of the plan to both Shinji and the audience -- it's a plan that sells his soul, sacrifices everything, locks the future up in mathematical certainty, and yet Gendo can't even convince his closest friend and confidant that it's a good idea. cafel posted:Actually something I just realized, We still have one angel that hasn't been revealed yet right? We had 10 at the end of 2.0 and either 11 or 12 and 13 in 3.0, so I'm wondering if the last Angel will show up in 4.0 even though the arrival and death of 13th seemed like it was supposed to be a big deal, or if it showed up and was eliminated during the events between 2.0 and 3.0 and we won't ever really here anything about it. Kaworu is 13, and the autonomous Unit-06 is 12; both of these are explicitly stated. The unnamed box angel guarding Shinji's tomb at the beginning of 3.33 is probably the "missing" one. Mari also refers to Kaworu as the last, c.f. "Besides, I'm curious to see what terrible things will happen once the last angel's dead." Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 23:38 on Apr 28, 2013 |
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Apr 28, 2013 23:36
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You can talk about stuff out of spoilers a week after it's widely available in English, right? I'm still really hesitant to condemn Shinji's actions in 2.22. That his attempt to save Rei was a disaster is obvious in hindsight, but I hope that whatever they do with her story arc in 4 makes it more complicated than just "it was a sin that gained you nothing." Also, bear in mind that even if Shinji had done nothing, there was a rampaging Angel / Unit-00 hybrid in NERV HQ. With Unit-00's ID code, it wouldn't have tripped the self-destruct mechanism, and there were no other viable Eva Units left to defend except Unit-01, which rejected the Dummy Plug. In other words, the only thing standing between an Angel reaching Lilith and wiping out humanity completely was Shinji. The only thing he's guilty of is focusing on saving one person instead of saving everyone, which incidentally would have required him to kill her himself. Even if his actions destroyed most of the world, he's also the only reason the rest of it is still there. Damning him for that is like blaming someone who runs into a burning building for only rescuing their own family instead of going back for everyone. ArchangeI posted:The problem I have with this is that 3.33 seems to contradict itself. The basic message is "You need to grow the gently caress up, Shinji/Otakus". But anytime Shinji tries anything, the world gets more hosed up as the result, to the point where everyone tells him to please, just stop trying, thanks. What kind of message is that? "You will make mistakes growing up, and it is therefore better not to grow up at all"? Yeah, this is my #1 source of frustration with 3.33 and with how people are reading it. I still think with some fancy interpretive footwork it might be saying something else, and a lot rides on that fourth film, but if not I am going to get unashamedly Mad At Animes. I suppose it's still a testament to Anno's strength as a writer that he can rile me up like this. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 01:50 on Apr 29, 2013 |
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Apr 29, 2013 01:45
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Breaking into someone's house to rob them and, essentially, a veteran child soldier stepping down (is it even without leave?) because his PTSD is crippling his ability to function aren't really morally comparable. Especially if he could reasonably assume the Dummy Plug would render him unnecessary.
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Apr 29, 2013 02:48
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ImpAtom posted:
This is exactly what Misato (and by extension the bridge crew of the Wunder) are telling him. Ritsuko even advocates killing him. The only people who aren't either telling him "give up and never do anything again," "die," or "pilot the robot" are Asuka and I guess Sakura if she's in any way significant. ImpAtom posted:Huh, good to know. So yeah, it ain't Gendo. It's the Dummy Plug (or maybe the Evangelion itself?) The quote can only be from an artifical being for the quote to make sense though considering its source. It's from a 70's sci-fi film: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0064177/?ref_=ttqt_qt_tt
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Apr 29, 2013 03:08
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tooooooo bad posted:Stitched image from 3.33. Spoilers obv. This is why the "too many Impacts, losing interest" thing doesn't really get to me. EoE was "this is the death of human logic;" Rebuild is about living in that environment after the fact. The apocalypse is the new normal. (Works as commentary on the genre, too!)
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Apr 29, 2013 19:16
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Khanstant posted:Is he wrong or why does he think he is wrong? Every fantasy I have of the human race eventually leads to merging into one conciousness. I just can't think of any good reasons to reject such a beautiful notion. It necessarily means extinguishing all individuality, which in the context of Evangelion is terrifying for almost everyone who faces it. For the few who embrace it it's a promise of being re-united with loved ones, realizing their secret desires, or escaping from pain -- but the actual Instrumentality sequence(s) make it clear that it doesn't deliver on any of those, it just erases their context in the same way death would. You have a field of infinite potential, but the only way to actually realize any of that potential is to establish limitations and boundaries and work within them. If you mean in real life, I just don't believe the universe is so convenient as to have a Nirvana or a universal source for humanity to "return" to. Life is almost by definition individual and interdependent and trying to erase either aspect seems, to me, anti-life. The Riddle of Feel posted:Now, to have a hivemind where there is no separation between individuals and no barriers or hunger or fear or lust is an interesting idea, but Evangelion specifically does not present that as an option. If Shinji chooses Instrumentality, all individual humans will die and a new entity will emerge in their place, including himself. I'm pretty sure that's exactly what EoE presents as an option. It's just that there's no distinction between "a hivemind where there is no separation between individuals and "a new entity, etc." Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Apr 29, 2013 |
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Apr 29, 2013 21:25
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Paracelsus posted:Do you really want everyone in existence to be aware of your every thought and to constantly judge you for them? Imagine the worst parts of high school, amplified by a billion or so. Forever. "If it's with you, I'd rather die!"
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Apr 29, 2013 21:55
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MadRhetoric posted:There's the very beginning of EoE (not the hospital scene) at the very end, with Asuka filling in for Misato. I kind of see what you mean, but Misato lies to Shinji, using his insecurities to force him into motion, while Asuka is doing exactly the opposite -- forcing him to stand up and face reality, the better to shed his (incredibly dangerous) insecurities. So more of a contrast than a parallel, unless I'm seriously misjudging where it's going with that scene.
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Apr 30, 2013 00:59
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Oh, another thing:MadRhetoric posted:Rei Q/Shiranami is straight up Rei III without the initial internal turmoil, as well as a starker reflection from the warmer Rei 2(.22). Rei Q herself has the existential confusion and despair of Rei III without a previous existence to draw from, which is arguably more terrifying. Instead of fear, she creates revulsion and obsession with the "proper" Rei, making a pretty blatant duality of Gendo and Shinji. Rei III in the series had Rei II's memories but not her will to become more human. (Quite the opposite, in fact.) What little development she did get as a character was all to do with her alienation and emotional distance from her former self. Conversely, although Rei Q obviously doesn't have the memories, 3.33 strongly suggests she still has the will to be human. Though she barely acts, she's curious about human concepts and her own history. Her act of defiance isn't biting off Gendo's hand and returning to Lilith, it's ejecting from her Evangelion prompted only by "do what YOU want" and following Asuka and Shinji into the desert. If I'm right, it's even worse than Gendo and Yui. The person he's looking for is right there, lost and amnesiac, having already entrusted herself to him in the form of the tape recorder. Shinji already ended the world to get her back, but instead of owning that decision he wants to run the deal backwards, because rebuilding (heh) is too hard. EDIT: On a related note, I'd say Fuyutsuki is being surprisingly honest with Shinji, even if it is only from a sense of guilt over his complicity in the whole affair. His lecture on the irreversibility of the world is exactly what Shinji needs to hear, which makes it that much weirder that he backs Gendo up at all. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 02:13 on Apr 30, 2013 |
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Apr 30, 2013 01:45
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MadRhetoric posted:I also don't bite on Rei being in the tape recorder. She's probably having her own belly of the beast moment in EVA-01 if she's anywhere at all. I don't think there's anything left in Unit-01. The 0% sync ratio, Gendo addressing his "Yui" comments to the Lilith corpse, and most of all the fact that Unit-01 has been completely absorbed by / relegated to the "explosions and cool CGI" side of the story by becoming the Wunder's engine -- they all fit pretty neatly with the idea that Unit-01 is just an empty tool now. Also, it would make Kaworu's smug, knowing "her soul is somewhere else" comment shortly after repairing the tape recorder so perfectly apropos. EDIT: Not to mention Gendo prioritizing retrieving Shinji over retrieving Unit-01. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 04:15 on Apr 30, 2013 |
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Apr 30, 2013 04:00
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Xelkelvos posted:Wasn't it mentioned by Fuyutsuki that the Rei Shinji rescued was now in the heart of Eva like Yui is? Or did I misread that scene? No, you're right, that's what he says. I mean maybe I'm full of it and it's just another Shinji / Gendo parallel; "he threw away all her belongings." But that's one hell of a red herring. I've theorized about Fuyutsuki being honest, but there's another possibility: that the whole conversation was meant to steer Shinji in a certain direction (empathizing with and emulating his father despite all the poo poo he's put him through) and when Fuyutsuki complains "Tis a wretched role I play" he's talking about the role he was just then playing. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 04:32 on Apr 30, 2013 |
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Apr 30, 2013 04:23
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Autonomous Monster posted:You read that as smug? I'm not really seeing it, myself. Confident, perhaps, or self-assured, but there's nothing in the voicework or the writing itself that would lead me to smug. Kaworu's almost inhumanly humble about his superior insight ("Knowledge is all this is. It's only because I've been in this world a little longer than you have."), as part of his "transcendental enlightened wiseman" schtick, and I'm inclined to view this as at least partially genuine, even if he is manipulating Shinji in other ways. Yeah, "smug" probably isn't supported by the VA's delivery at all, I just find Kaworu's motives incredibly suspect in all his appearances. He's an avatar of sublime wisdom and love whose circumstances make it completely impossible to avoid some mixture of ignorance and betrayal.
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Apr 30, 2013 18:47
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abraxas posted:Why did people turn into EVAs when the Third Impact happened? I thought they'd turn into LCL or some random goo of one mind but they apparently turned into EVAs? I assume everyone turning into EVAs also explains the huge amount of suspiciously big and not-human looking skulls all around kind-of Lilith dead body? Also it was only the people who failed to do.. something? that turned into EVAs? I got really, really confused about this part. Not all versions of Instrumentality are the same. In EoE Third Impact was orchestrated by SEELE, interfered with by Yui, and Shinji wished for everyone to die. In 2.22 it was the result of Gendo covertly pushing Shinji towards Rei, and the actual Third Impact happens when he wishes to save her no matter what happens to the world or himself. It's pointless to ask about the exact mechanics because nobody in the audience knows and that confusion is part of the point. I'm half-jokingly inclined to say it represents all the failed Eva-clones anime has produced in the last decade, or more seriously that it's just more ambiguous time loop, "all of this has happened before" imagery. abraxas posted:What was up with Asukas beast mode? All glowy eyed and fangs and her EVA goes nuts and starts biting heads off and poo poo. What the hell was that all about? We've seen Evas go berserk dozens of times by now, and Mari in 1.11 proves that a sufficiently skilled or prepared pilot can control it. Nothing new here. abraxas posted:Is there anything we know about the "Curse of EVA" beyond "it apparently makes the pilots stop aging"? Nope. abraxas posted:What's up with that huge rear end tower and the vertical tunnel connecting directly down to almost-Lilith and all the skulls and stuff? And why was the tunnel ALSO made out of weirdly semi-gooeyfied EVAs? Pretty much the same answer as the first question, plus if you want to get into  extra-canonical stuff, NERV HQ was built over the Black Moon, where Lilith crashed to Earth. So it's just all the weird Angelic poo poo that was previously hidden becoming exposed due to how badly NERV HQ was destroyed, plus whatever weird stuff Third Impact piled on top of what was already there.abraxas posted:Why did Misato and the other dudes start WILLE again? They're fighting NERV and their EVAs, I got that. But is it because they're suddenly not fans of the Instrumentality project anymore? They knew the HIP was the NERV plan ever since the first movie right? Most of the general personnel of NERV have no idea what's going on beyond "we're here to stop the Angels." Misato was slowly figuring it out with help from Kaji. Ritsuko probably knows more since she understands the mechanics of Evangelions pretty well, but she presumably kept quiet out of loyalty to Gendo. It's been fourteen years since all of that, so the most likely scenario is that Misato figured out exactly what's going on, Ritsuko turned her back on Gendo for unknown reasons, and who the hell knows where Kaji is or why he does anything. abraxas posted:Why did Asuka call her crew Lilim at the end? Lilim is just "the humans" basically, right? As opposed to the angels, if I remember all that stuff right. No idea, but my first two guesses would be "it's just technical jargon" and "maybe she no longer regards herself as fully human due to the Curse." A couple guys upthread think maybe she's a clone, or maybe it's some other wacky thing with as-yet insufficient evidence. As I see it, not really relevant, since she's still pretty obviously the same character. abraxas posted:Someone needs to explain SEELE to me. I always thought those stone slabs for a lack of a better word were like, flying monitors basically. It says "Sound Only" on them for christs sake! I always figured SEELE were a bunch of old dudes sitting in a conference room somewhere having a phone conference with Gendo whenever poo poo went down. Apparently I was wrong? Also if that's how they "live", why is their power supply right next to them where Gendo and basically everyone has easy access to it? They always seemed kind of bossy and maybe a bit standoffish with Gendo to me, why wasn't he just like "OK dudes all your talk about the Scrolls and stuff was cool but I've had enough of your BS. I'm getting my wife back, see ya!" and pulled their plugs? Like most of these questions there's no really good answer, but there is a kind of intuitive progression at work here. In the original series, SEELE start out as a bunch of clueless old dudes who are just terrified of death. They call Unit-01 "that toy," have no idea why Shinji is significant, and bicker among themselves. As the series progresses they get weirder and better-informed in about equal measure, and eventually stop appearing as human figures. By the end they're basically a death cult, willing to wipe out all of humanity just so they can get tanged and continue to "live" as LCL soup. In EoE you briefly get to see them again right as Instrumentality hits and Keel Lorenz (SEELE #1) is a) happy with how things are turning out and b) leaves behind a spinal implant very similar in structure to an Eva. Anyways, the important takeaway here: SEELE wants humanity to commit suicide because ~reasons~ which may be selfish or may be religious or (as I suspect) the one morphed into the other the deeper into it they got. They're assholes. Rebuild adds an even heavier dose of mysticism to how they talk about it, and in 3.33 they come right out and say "All we've ever wished for is the peaceful purification of all souls." So whatever their motivations or reasoning, they don't care if Gendo kills them because they're confident Instrumentality will happen no matter what he does. abraxas posted:Why is it sometimes the Near-Third Impact and sometimes the Third Impact? And if it was the Near-Third Impact why, at the end, is it the Fourth Impact? Goddamnit Evangelion. Well, it didn't tang or Evangelionify EVERYBODY, so Near Third Impact is good enough. Fourth Impact is Fourth Impact because otherwise it would be confusing in a dumb way instead of an intriguing way. abraxas posted:If I understood all this right at the end of the movie, it ALL perfectly worked how Gendo had it planned from the beginning? He planned the Third Impact and the spearing of 01 by Kaworu and then 14 years of Shinji sleeping and Misato defecting and creating WILLE and then a huge eyeless Rei head exploding blood all over him and THEN Fourth Impact not happening despite almost happening kind of like the Third one. Not "perfectly;" just good enough. Gendo has looked at the script and is playing eleven-dimensional chess with foreknowledge of the future, just like SEELE. Unlike SEELE, he thinks he can interfere with it and make it turn out how he wants. Historically speaking, this has not gone very well for him. abraxas posted:What are the Gates of Guf and what did we see through them? I felt like it was really deliberately framed when they closed at the end because they lingered on them being open for so long and then bwoop they closed. All I saw was a lot of black and a white glowy thing in the middle, but then again this might be some spiritual reference again that I have no idea about. It's religious technobabble. In the context of Evangelion, it's (as best as we can tell from a very small number of references) a void from which either souls come, or which draws souls in. Basically a giant spiritual vacuum cleaner that powers Instrumentality. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Apr 30, 2013 |
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Apr 30, 2013 21:05
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Also, having answered all that, remember that thinking he understood all this bullshit and that any of it helps or means anything to Shinji is what got Kaworu killed. Don't lose sight of what's actually important!
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Apr 30, 2013 21:15
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Abalieno posted:In Kabbalistic terms Instrumentality happens a moment after you've solved that class of personal problems. That's also why in EoE Instrumentality "fails". It's like Shinji is not ready, and so the process doesn't go through. That logic is hideous, though. It seems to rely on the unspoken assumption that individuals will never be good enough, never be able to love each other as the Other as well as they could if they abandoned that distinction. Community without ego isn't community, it's just a monad. I agree the logic of Kabbalah as you describe it applies to Evangelion pretty well, but it applies in an incredibly ironic and critical fashion. The only people who wish to climb the ladder of spiritual ascent are those so broken and selfish that they're incapable of seeing the value of the life they have. God's messengers, who yearn instinctively to return to their version of the "light," are equated with kaiju movie monsters. "Ode to Joy," a poem about man being united as if by magic, is sung as one friend murders another. I'm not even entirely sure I agree with your assessment of Shinji being not-ready; I think that what occurs throughout the original series is exactly the process of getting him ready, forcefully, against his will. All his attachments are stripped from him, screaming and bleeding and leaving him a worse person than he was. The very last thing he does before Instrumentality ends is let go of his mother ("Farewell"), and then when he's reborn on the shore the first thing he does upon seeing another person is to calmly, silently try to strangle her to death. He has to be reminded, almost accidentally, that she's human too before he stops. I suppose you could witness all of that and say, "Well, that just proves they're ALL not ready for the transcendent bliss awaiting them." But personally I think that's insane. Abalieno posted:Nope. In episode 26 Instrumentality is definitely successful. People clapping hands at the end. The only thing 25 and 26 say is "This is Instrumentality." Whether it's succesful or not is extremely open to interpretation, especially when you consider its similarity to all the other hallucinatory sequences in the original series. (Which often lie, disguise one character as another, or serve to guide Shinji towards some ulterior conclusion.) EDIT: Also episode 26 literally has a sequence where the narrator sits Shinji down and explains to him that barriers and limitations are the only things that make action and meaning possible, so there's that. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 02:39 on May 1, 2013 |
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May 1, 2013 02:21
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What are you basing all of that on? Also please address this: quote:EDIT: Also episode 26 literally has a sequence where the narrator sits Shinji down and explains to him that barriers and limitations are the only things that make action and meaning possible, so there's that. And as long as we're talking about Anno's intent for the show (there is no ugh big enough for letting authorial intent dictate interpretation, but as long as we're playing this game) -- Anno claims he wrote the show "without theory" and was constantly revising the script as he went. EDIT: There's also another article that says EoE is based on scripts that Anno had already written, but which were rejected by the TV network: http://www.evaotaku.com/omake/anno.html Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 03:05 on May 1, 2013 |
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May 1, 2013 02:47
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Abalieno posted:No. It's a rejection of instrumentality as it is described in EoE, but someone who doesn't watch the movie doesn't have any idea of "rejection". This is a rationalization you make AFTER watching the movies. If you don't see the movies the message is that what is being shown is exactly how Instrumentality works. Okay, but you could say this about anything at literally any point in the series. Of course you can't fully judge a concept you haven't been fully exposed to yet. If you stopped watching the show at episode 6, you might reasonably conclude that Second Impact really was the result of an asteroid hitting the planet. I admit this analogy is slightly absurd because EoE presents itself as "25' and 26'" which is bit different than new sequential episodes, but nothing in the text itself explains whether it is a contradiction, a complement, an addition, etc. Referring to Anno changing his mind is pointless both because of the death of the author, and because even if you privilege authorial intent, Anno changed the story constantly throughout its run, and because there's evidence that suggests EoE's script predates the backlash. Anyways, if you want to consider the series minus EoE a complete text and argue about that instead of the whole franchise, that's fine. If that were the case I would probably say that Evangelion doesn't mesh very well with Kabbalistic principles at all, because Shinji's journey consists of shedding attachments and becoming more and more miserable until an introspective, arguably mystical experience shows him the value of himself and others, with the final scene transforming (or perhaps revealing?) people who formerly hurt and confused him as well-wishing friends. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 05:14 on May 1, 2013 |
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May 1, 2013 05:06
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The Riddle of Feel posted:If you pare away everything that makes them unique, this is pretty much the core of all occult systems. The initiate undergoes a series of increasingly difficult and harrowing trials followed by a temptation that must be resisted (in the series being Kaworu's unconditional, but ultimately hollow and inhuman love) before plunging into an abyss of ego destruction. The test is the recreation of the self and emergence from the other side. Well, that's fine then. I don't know nearly enough about Kabbalah to compare it directly to anything, I'm just going by Abalieno's description which seems to lack the crucial "recreation of the self" part. (Or perhaps I'm misinterpreting him with respect to that.) Looking at EoE in that light makes it seem almost like a clash of contradictory occult systems, where one (SEELE's Instrumentality) advocates a final return to the source and the other operates more like a mystery cult (Yui's Instrumentality), with Shinji caught in the middle and ultimately siding with his mother. EDIT: It also makes the "Yui planned everything" theory a lot kinder to her, since in that light she's basically protecting her child (and by extension, all human life) from SEELE's death wish. She's still kind of nuts, but even traumatizing him with the Contact Experiment makes a certain kind of twisted sense if it is what she says it is: showing her son her hope for the future. ... god, it almost even makes me feel sorry for Gendo. 
Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 05:56 on May 1, 2013 |
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May 1, 2013 05:41
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Abalieno posted:The goal of Kabbalah (and it's really a goal) is reunion with God. So there's absolutely no recreation of the self in Kabbalah. It's not about individuality at all. You did; I didn't remember it was you. I do however remember being really creeped out by it.
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May 1, 2013 06:30
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Oh, just saw your edit:Abalieno posted:(btw, tell me if this video doesn't look very like episode 26, and you're seeing Kabbalah Instrumentality) I'm not entirely sure what we're arguing about any more, so here's my take: Obviously Evangelion draws on Kabbalistic symbols; that it has similar themes isn't much of a stretch. No disagreement here. Evangelion draws the opposite conclusion of that video. This is true regardless of whether we're talking about episode 26 or EoE; episode 26 presents a return to egoism in triumphant, upbeat terms and EoE is much more brutal about the remaining difficulties, but in neither case is the return to individuality a failure. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 06:54 on May 1, 2013 |
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May 1, 2013 06:52
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