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I finally got around to seeing the third Rebuild movie and...I really couldn't get over how unlikable basically everyone in the film is other than Shinji (and Kaworu/Fuyutsuki, I guess). They wake up this scared kid, act like dicks without bothering to inform him of anything or filling him in or helping him with his shock, they just threaten his life and give him dirty looks. It felt so weird for Misato and everyone, even realizing that Shinji unintentionally triggered the near-Third Impact or whatever. You'd think they'd seem him as some poor unwitting pawn/tool in NERV's plans. He's still just a kid who didn't really intend anything to go wrong and shouldn't have been piloting a giant biomechanical apocalyptic thing of death anyway, it seems to me that as a character Misato had never before lost sight of that...it seemed to me that she'd blame Gendo and NERV for everything, not go from a sort of mother surrogate/whatever relationship they have/ to flatout being a huge douche. I would have figured they'd take Shinji off to a side, fill him in on everything, and enroll him as a fellow ally against his evil father and the people who are really at fault (by ally I mean just stressing that he should never pilot an Eva again and telling him why he shouldn't and being at least sort of friendly. It's not like Shinji even wanted to pilot Eva, how freaking easy was your job description? "Convince Shinji Ikari to stop piloting Evangelion"). It seemed bizarre to see them just directly drive Shinji into the situation you have happening at the end of the film. What did you seriously expect to happen? You essentially wake up him from cryosleep, treat him terribly, don't fill him in on anything, and ensure that he'll follow the orders of the next person he meets who doesn't immediately berate him and/or threaten his life. Punkin Spunkin fucked around with this message at 10:02 on Jul 19, 2013 |
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Jul 19, 2013 09:58
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Honestly I was cheering for Shinji the whole time, so to speak, because absolutely everyone in the cast had become unlikable to sometimes irrational and utterly incompetent levels often counter-intuitive to their goals. They deserved to have Fourth Impact happen for their total imbecility. I mentioned this earlier in the thread so I'll try to avoid going on the exact same rant again, but your loving goal is "Stop Shinji Ikari from piloting Evangelion". You seriously somehow bumble THAT?! That has to be one of the easiest goals in anime. Yes, berate and treat the child who just woke up like crap, despite the fact you know he was just a tool and are engaged in ferocious combat against his father and those you know are the true enemy, despite the fact that you know he has no idea what happened, despite the fact that you probably have some idea that there are those who might try to capture him and manipulate him, do your absolute best to drive him into the arms of absolutely anyone who doesn't immediately treat him like dirt or threaten him. No need to fill him in on anything or at least let him know what's going on. Just immediately treat him like a war criminal. Even if they unfairly put all of the blame on his shoulders, that's totally and utterly incompetent. While I appreciated the need for this low note dispelling the false victory of the second film, it felt forced and like the characters acted against their previously established personalities, motivations, and even their present goals and interests in terms of how they interacted with Shinji. Someone mentioned earlier that it doesn't flow and it's true, the characters other than Shinji and the way they act contributes to this disjointed feeling. The characters acted against reason, personality, their own goals and motivations, for the sake of creating this new "downer" world's vibes and setting. Don't get me wrong, I still loved Rebuild 3 despite this, but pretty much everyone other than Shinji, Kaworu, and Fuyutsuki felt unlikable and out of character. Punkin Spunkin fucked around with this message at 09:44 on Jan 11, 2014 |
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Jan 11, 2014 09:38
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:The only people who berate or mistreat Shinji are Misato and Asuka, both of whom have tremendous reasons to be both angry and irrational towards him. Basically, while I appreciated this new future downer world and the need for it, it didn't feel like we flowed naturally into it. Punkin Spunkin fucked around with this message at 10:12 on Jan 11, 2014 |
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Jan 11, 2014 10:08
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I still prefer most of Sadamoto's manga version up until the lazy eh ending. Beautiful art, I liked his characterization of the various cast and it still retained Anno depression and doom up to a point, generally I enjoyed the directions he took in embellishing the story and the backstory of the characters (Kaji telling that flashback story, for example, and all the extra stuff about Rei and Ritsuko and Asuka), he seemed more interested on building on the interactions between Shinji and Rei rather than Shinji and Asuka in some ways compared to the anime but I've still got the old Viz volumes of the Eva manga that used to come out years and years and years in between while I waited and I love 'em. Just wish he hadn't messed up that landing. The way the manga ended just didn't seem fitting. But for me, some of my most iconic scenes and visual memorable images are still more manga-centric, I did actually get into Eva by finding the manga first before knowing there was an anime somehow as a kid. There's really power in the Gendo-Shinji relationship because Sadamoto obviously had a lot more time and space to dip into it, that scene with Shinji throwing a fist at Gendo and the scene where they meet on the anniversary of Yui's death, they're just so Evangelion iconic for me.  Also all the schoolfriends stuff with Kensuke and Touji and Hikari is somehow a thousand times more heartbreaking. Punkin Spunkin fucked around with this message at 09:36 on May 4, 2014 |
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May 4, 2014 09:27
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ImpAtom posted:I actually really dislike that scene but that's partially because it it is the start of (what is to me) the lazy and generic ending. You're right, a more confident and forward Shinji wouldn't do that. This is just him snapping and lashing out and I felt like the acts that caused it were above and beyond the realm of the norm to bring it out. The nature of the medium means there's a lot more opportunity for Sadamoto to SERIOUSLY milk the horror and agony of what happens with Touji. I mean, look at this poo poo:             (man I love Sadamoto's art so much) etc. etc. etc. In the context of the manga, the whole Unit 03 situation is really the biggest soulcrushing event in the entire series. There's just a lot more heartstring pulling and cruel preperation for what's coming by fleshing out Touji and Hikari and Shinji and Kensuke and all their interactions early on. That's there in the anime too, but not as much, obviously with the manga Sadamoto had way more space and a billion years to embellish and build on stuff and add scenes. It's a thousand times more of a punch in the face than any of the Eva Unit 03 scenarios in animated Evangelion, even including the memorable version in Rebuild. Sadamoto's Shinji is slightly more emotive and human anyway, I mean you can argue against how he writes Shinji but Fist is not an out of nowhere chapter crammed in considering how he writes Shinji. Considering how much more gruesome and potent and horrifying the whole Touji/Unit 03 plot unfolds in the manga and how extra-provoking Gendo is, it just felt like it worked and had a cause whereas it wouldn't work in the anime. The whole business with Touji just feels a lot more impactful and emotionally powerful in the manga, so the "payoff" of Fist (it's barely a feel-good payoff since it's not like it's a bold brave act, it's an act of feeble futility that Kaji stops anyway) didn't feel "off" when I read it. I get what you mean though...Like I said, I started off with the manga, so I've got that nostalgia and bias. Manga Shinji only seemed slightly "off" to me, not to a degree that hurt the story...up until the crappy ending of course. You mentioning that Fist and similar chapters are the start of what ends up being a crappy ending is a valid observation in retrospect, but reading it at the time it didn't feel like it had to totally veer off in that direction...I feel like Sadamoto balanced his own vibes and Anno Doom and Gloom fairly well for like 90% of the series. Also the manga has Kaworu strangling a kitten to death and basically being Mark Twain's Mysterious Stranger, so yeah. 
Punkin Spunkin fucked around with this message at 21:11 on May 4, 2014 |
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May 4, 2014 21:00
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MonsieurChoc posted:The EVA manga is terrible because Sadamoto doesn't get it, and in fact goes out of his way to not get it. The best example is the Kaworu storyline, where he goes out of his way to make sure everyone knows how not-gay Shinji is, and in fact Shinji hates Kaworu. It's full of these moments where I can just imagine Sadamoto thinking "The hero of a robot show shouldn't act like this!? Here, lemme fix it." I can see what you mean though. Certainly you could just argue that Sadamoto went out of his way to make Kaworu less and less appealing to Shinji by making Kaworu act creepier and weirder as a character than he did in the anime, but given Sadamoto's willingness to alter a lot of facets and stuff in weird slight ways and add new scenes I didn't really get the impression that it was purposefully malevolent in intention. He adds a lot of extra weird things to various characters, such as having Asuka's confession scene with Kaji and a lot of additional weird stuff between Rei and Ritsuko, not to mention the whole Gendo A.T. field thing. For what it's worth Sadamoto seems to have Shinji be less involved with Kaworu and/or Asuka and seems more interested in more Rei interaction (maybe because he just really likes drawing Rei, great art) 
Punkin Spunkin fucked around with this message at 01:11 on May 6, 2014 |
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May 6, 2014 01:04
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MonsieurChoc posted:He's not the Angel of Betrayal, he's the Angel of Free Will. Evidence:  
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May 12, 2014 05:22
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Lava Lamp Goddess posted:I enjoy EVA incorrectly. I find all the kids uninteresting and rather boring. I wish the show was about the main adult cast and their trials and tribulations around the war with the angels. Of course it also totally suckerpunched and mindraped me at the time, as it would since I don't really think it's healthy for a 13 year old or w/e to watch End of Evangelion. Smoking Crow posted:I want an Eva spinoff from the angels' perspective.  They work well together.
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May 14, 2014 23:32
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That reminds me, what was the name of that goofy nuclear-powered giant robot they tried to replace the Eva with? Jet Alone...yeah...I wonder why they even bothered sabotaging that clunky thing. It would've just gotten torn apart by the first Angel they tested it on. Didn't even have an A.T. Field.
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May 16, 2014 07:38
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Cardboard Box A posted:Yes, an Angel tearing apart a nuclear-powered robot is definitely a thing you want to let happen near your headquarters. I forget how close the Jet Alone project stuff was to their headquarters though, I guess it could have been a Japanese city far enough from Tokyo 3 for them not to care.
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May 16, 2014 07:48
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Milky Moor posted:Misato didn't stop it, did she? I was under the impression it was cancelled remotely at Gendo's behest. Like, doesn't she board it and try to stop it and at the last possible second everything is mysteriously fixed and cut to Gendo getting off the phone or something?
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May 16, 2014 07:51
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I started with the dub, if I remember right, so I always had a bit of nostalgia for watching Eva like that (though weirdly enough, I actually started with the manga before the anime, I discovered the manga and then found out there was an anime). I mean, it's a fairly decent dub all things considered, especially considering a lot of other anime dubs (I remember liking the FLCL dub too). Spike Spencer's fine enough as Shinji, and I really don't know if there were any characters whose dubbed voices I had much complaints about...though to be fair I haven't rewatched Eva in eons. If I were watching it now though, I'd watch it subbed probably, that's how I watch the Rebuild movies when given the option. Punkin Spunkin fucked around with this message at 06:17 on Jul 23, 2014 |
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Jul 23, 2014 06:14
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I vote for a dumb EoE-connecting ending. Like "this world too is a possibility of instrumentality, shinji-san  "basically for all those theories people had about it being more continuation than remake.
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Jul 30, 2014 04:48
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Man, I totally disagree with this casual dissing of the manga, but we already know that. Shinji isn't a "cool guy" in it, Gendo's fine and what's the big deal with the Gendo A.T. field stuff compared to any other Eva wackiness we've seen in the past, and never once did I get the feeling from the Kaworu arc that Sadamoto was scared of "teh gay". I mean, Shinji being perturbed and turned off by Kaworu is frankly understandable, he's a mysterious figure who shows up out of nowhere to spew dreamy existential stuff at him, strangle a kitten to death with his bare hands, and then isn't completely horrified when Asuka is being mindraped (though Kaworu wasn't celebrating it either, he's just an Angel and has perhaps a slightly inappropriate reaction). And ultimately, if I remember right, Shinji ends up regretting the way he was initially standoffish and creeped out by Kaworu. I mean, there was always a sort of creepy not-human "other" element to Kaworu Nagisa, I feel like it's pretty kneejerk and unnecessarily grasping to just go "SADAMOTO HATES GAYS!!!!!" I remember when I read the Kaworu arc Sadamoto had a bit at the end discussing Mark Twain's The Mysterious Stranger, a touch I liked as well. And he's not "Evil Kaworu". These are all oversimplications and generalizations, based on (I have to assume), most of you guys not really remembering the manga very freshly. Yeah, Kaworu is creepier compared to his anime iteration. Yeah, Shinji is a little more vocal compared to his anime iteration. But that doesn't make Kaworu "evil" or Shinji a "cool guy", not once did I get either of those vibes from reading the manga at all. But that's just me. The Eva manga is different, certainly, but I don't feel like Sadamoto "missed the point" or committed any huge travesties/disappointments (except the ending). I appreciated it the way I appreciate Rebuild, another opportunity for a telling (though boy he really blew it with the ending). Oh well, to each their own. I just didn't get any of those vibes from it. Punkin Spunkin fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Aug 5, 2014 |
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Aug 5, 2014 19:30
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You know, rereading the Kaworu arc, Kaworu isn't really depicted as a bad guy at all. He's curious and observing humans and he's a bit creepy because he's not human and doesn't completely comprehend them, but it's not like Shinji necessarily hates him (just gets confused and shy when he gets all up in his personal space nude and stuff). Kaworu also requests Shinji to kill him in the end with all that underground Terminal Dogma stuff that happens, telling him he'll do it if he has the slightest feelings for him.   I mean, later on Shinji even runs to Kaworu's place as a place of solace when everything goes wrong, and... wait a minute there...   yeah, there IS that. Dammit SADAMOTOOOOOOO!  There is also this page way way after that scene, at the end of the Kaworu arc, which probably would have been okay without the "I knew I shouldn't like a guy like that". :/ I mean, maybe it's more about Shinji's hangups (since he comes to be attracted to Kaworu despite them), but yeah Sadamoto did probably drop the ball there. 
Punkin Spunkin fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Aug 5, 2014 |
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Aug 5, 2014 20:41
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And besides, we were discussing Kaworu in the manga anyway (and whether or not the hangups there are Shinji's awkwardness or Sadamoto being dumb). It's not five minutes of ambiguity, we're not discussing the anime.
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Aug 5, 2014 23:12
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Weeeeell, I totally made this argument earlier, and I'm on Nikk's side as horrifying as a realization as that is for me (just kidding). I don't know if you've read the manga or not, but the impact of Touji's death really is a thousand times more powerful. The scene just works. You can't properly judge the scene out of context anyway, it needs to be read naturally reading the manga. Maybe he's not Anime Shinji, but he's definitely a Shinji.TheFallenEvincar posted:I don't know, I think it adds to Shinji's characterization and makes him feel more...human. The Shinji Ikari who never ever ever ever ever has a scenario in which he lashes out, that's just over the top. This is a seriously extreme situation. Fist is a really isolated big deal in the manga and even if Sadamoto's Shinji is slightly more emotive he's still basically as passive as Anno's Shinji. The core of what makes Shinji is still there. He's still passive and inward 99% of the time. It doesn't feel like someone gung-ho and confident or feel like Sadamoto's driving against Shinji's passivity. He's not gaining confidence and acting on it or growing as a person, he's snapping and it's understandable considering the context. It's not like it's some glowing Shounen moment if you get what I mean. Honestly the manga delivers a lot of the emotional blows a lot more impact and has more room for detail and storytelling. I don't really think it goes off the rails completely until that final ending. It's just another telling of Evangelion, one skewed less Anno-dominant but still from an important creative part of Evangelion and still pretty fun in a Rebuild-esque retelling sort of read. Also: ALSO: Also? rest my case haters Punkin Spunkin fucked around with this message at 06:41 on Aug 8, 2014 |
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Aug 8, 2014 06:37
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ImpAtom posted:No, not everyone acts that way and not everyone would try to punch someone. It is completely a "this is something the fans want" moment rather than something that should have happened. Shinji retreating from his responsibilities is a far more reasonable characterization point.
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Aug 8, 2014 06:44
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They're random silhouettes compared to how fleshed out the whole Touji event is in the manga. In comparison. But fair enough, like I said I've got nostalgia bias probably.ImpAtom posted:The Eva-03 thing happens because Shinji is unwilling to take action and that is important because it is basically the out-of-Eva Shinji getting in the way of the in-Eva Shinji because his friend is in the machine. This leads to the scene where the Eva without Shinji's control is let loose. Punkin Spunkin fucked around with this message at 07:09 on Aug 8, 2014 |
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Aug 8, 2014 06:50
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If you're saying you consider the Evangelion manga to be on the level of SRW, then you just really bummed out this guy:
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Aug 8, 2014 07:11
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ImpAtom posted:The manga ran for so long that elements of other material began to seep in which is why it has the goofy errata weapons from the toys
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Aug 8, 2014 07:18
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ImpAtom posted:
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Aug 8, 2014 07:22
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Fair enough, I just didn't find the totally ineffective chainsaw (I can imagine NERV's research wing making some stupid poo poo like that) that much goofier than the giant axe or shoulder spikes or weird future guns/hyperpowered sniper rifle I guess.
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Aug 8, 2014 07:55
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:It's terrible, don't taint your memories of Robin Williams with it. RIP though, sweet eva fan (I wonder what a nigga's OTP was...probably Rei  )
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Aug 14, 2014 06:56
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I always feel debates like this are sort of moot anyway, though I'm in the Catfish camp, because it's like...you do remember Shinji is a psychologically abused child soldier who shouldn't even be there right? Do you guys not remember how old he is or something? Or do all you manga haters suddenly subscribe to Manga Kaji's hosed up logic of guilt/responsibility re: Shinji? Like, are you really going to hold him accountable for any of that poo poo? Shouldn't you be condemning literally every other actual adult involved in this situation first? Shinji's a victim in any sense and any universe. I mean, if you're gonna say "well in the world of Eva it's just a reality that child soldiers are necessary, so it's fine to judge them and not inherently hold them as abused child victims"...but who can really say that with certainty? Any promising alternatives would just get sabotaged ala Jet Alone.
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Sep 16, 2014 21:57
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ImpAtom posted:
 You put a gun in a kid's hand, the kid kills somebody, sure I guess you could say the kid has 1% of the blame and you have 99%. It's just a false equivalency to look at that situation and go "well, we aaaaall have SOME blame".
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Sep 16, 2014 22:04
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I mean, like I said, it's not even absolutely certain child soldiers are necessary to defend the world from Angels, is it? Are you going to take SEELE or Gendo's word for it? Like I said, alternative programs like Jet Alone just get sabotaged anyway. So no, you can't hold the children shoved into a hosed up situation and made into child soldiers. Or if you really have a hardon for criticizing children, A.) Maybe criticize everyone else first B.) Don't just create some murky false equivalency by saying EVERYONE is guilty, there are definitely majorly different levels of guilt and responsibility and the lowest people on that list are...guess who?! Maybe the children?! You keep trying to use that "he's not ABSOLUTELY 100% blameless" thing to shove Shinji into a false equivalency. Sure I guess if you go out into the street and hand a child a loaded handgun and he kills somebody, you could argue that he has some blame for pulling the trigger...if you really wanna do that...but the level of blame is like night and day different.
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Sep 16, 2014 22:17
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ImpAtom posted:
You're the guy who gives a kid a loaded handgun, then when he kills someone, you go, "Well it's not like he was some perfect blameless angel! We're both guilty in our own way!" also no way cookie crisp survived second impact 
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Sep 16, 2014 22:30
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SHISHKABOB posted:i just fufcking love this whoel dgoddamn show its like so amazing i love it so much in a totally personally way that is like so deeply connected to my life and my growth as a person and I love it so much I lveo you evangelion so mcuh
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Sep 27, 2014 03:28
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Utritum posted:
 
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Jan 7, 2015 01:24
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:How many times has it been pointed out that Gendo is basically a James Bond supervillain?   that's not Skyfall but it's close enough for me 
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Jan 29, 2015 09:30
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Either way I kind of just rolled my eyes and said sure sure when this dude was like "EVANGELION?!?!? NOOO CLUE! HEH-HEH."  That neckbeard says differently, buddy. 
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Feb 9, 2015 06:29
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Ka0 posted:Holy poo poo you mean it ended? 
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Feb 22, 2015 05:03
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Avocados posted:Oh boy, accidentally saw my comatose friend's boobs. Better lock the door and jack off right freaking here since no one is here to stop me
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Mar 15, 2015 05:28
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Hey at least you're not Aoba. Dude had the worst instrumentality experience possible. Just screaming hysterically under his desk. I guess the implication being he didn't have anyone he loved or maybe his fetish was being terrified and humiliated by multiple Rei clones and he actually did get his dream come true.  pretty much had to be a goon.
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Mar 15, 2015 21:44
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Gammatron 64 posted:So I saw Barnes and Noble has the first 9 volumes of the Evangelion Manga. Is it significantly different from the anime or is it not worth picking up? Of course, as mentioned, his ending didn't end up being very good...but at least it's finally done so you don't have to experience Sadamoto's Rebuild-level (except times 1000x) release lagging. There are some dumb things, but then again, Kaworu strangling a kitten to death.
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Apr 6, 2015 05:36
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Sakurazuka posted:Amazon UK cancelled my pre-order like a year ago.
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Nov 5, 2015 22:16
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ya'll see thisVintersorg posted:Tiny teaser for new Godzilla.
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Dec 10, 2015 00:17
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Rekka posted:So with Utada Hikarus new album confirmed for release sometime in the spring of 2016, and the fact that we know she is / was due to record a new song for a new Evangelion movie sometime in Winter 2015, I wonder if it's ok to assume Evangelion might be out around the same time as her album? 
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Dec 10, 2015 20:04
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JazzFlight posted:It's also really nostalgic since it was the first anime I got into as a teen (along with Cowboy Bebop). I think I even made a class art piece with the lyrics to Komm Susser Tod written in it. Good thing no one looked too close, those lyrics could have sent me to therapy, haha. I just liked the emotional sound of the song, honest!
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Dec 11, 2015 00:00
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