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I hope this is the proper Industry thread that we're supposed to relocate the BackerKit discussion to. I was just told by Fred Hicks that "keeping my pledge is not worth my loud and ongoing disappointment." I was trying to have a fair and rational discussion with the guy, and suddenly he doesn't want my money and doesn't want me to have the dice I pledged for. My respect for Evil Hat just dropped a few points. He can't handle the overwhelming negative publicity of a half-dozen comments on a single update page on Kickstarter.
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Jul 1, 2013 07:38
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Nice! Good job, Fred.
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Jul 1, 2013 07:44
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You're incredibly pissed and/or suspicious about him using something that isn't the (terrible) official kickstarter survey tool, so he gave you your money back (I assume). Congrats, you don't need to give your information to some third-party site anymore! Mission accomplished! 
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Jul 1, 2013 07:47
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I'm not letting him lock me out of the reward I pledged for. Seriously, does nobody else see the problem with this? I've been attempting to calmly explain my position and discuss the situation, and he's juts "nope, don't want to listen to complaints. Rather than attempting to work with you in any way shape or form, I'm going to attempt to sweep you under the rug"
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Jul 1, 2013 07:52
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That's a good industry move too. If someone is being unreasonable about a situation, it is best to give them a refund and let them know politely you are done dealing with them. They get their money back, it's better than engaging in a long, drawn-out argument and you can move on to do something more productive with your time. One of the most common mistakes in this industry is giving too much time and attention to people who are being unreasonable. Reporting a project to Kickstarter and accusing the creator of fraud because you're uninformed, and then escalating it, I'd be refunding the money too. edit: for people confused, the conversation began in the announcements thread. Context might help.
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Jul 1, 2013 07:52
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Mikan posted:One of the most common mistakes in this industry is giving too much time and attention to people who are being unreasonable. Reporting a project to Kickstarter and accusing the creator of fraud because you're uninformed, and then escalating it, I'd be refunding the money too.
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Jul 1, 2013 07:57
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What the hell do you want him to do? He explained why he's using BackerKit in detail, offered a lot of supporting evidence, and told you what your options were - sign up or get a refund. You seem to believe that you can create some kind of third option by complaining and posting a lot, and it's pretty clear that isn't, wasn't, and won't be in the cards.
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Jul 1, 2013 07:58
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I've never once accused Fred Hicks or Evil Hat of fraud. I said that it set of fraud-like alarm bells and that I felt it may not be keeping with Kickstarter's Terms of Service. I also did not use the "Report this Project" function, I merely used Kickstarter's Contact Us form. Is Evil Hat so above any reproach that any critisism should just be swept under the rug? As a customer of Evil Hat's (I've purchased their products at retail, I'm not just a KS backer), am I not allowed to raise a concern and attempt to discuss it? jivjov fucked around with this message at 08:20 on Jul 1, 2013 |
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Jul 1, 2013 07:58
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You're totally allowed to. People are also allowed to decide that they don't agree with what you're saying and think you're kind of an rear end in a top hat.
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Jul 1, 2013 08:01
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jivjov posted:Am I as a customer of Evil Hat's (I've purchased their products at retail, I'm not just a KS backer), am I not allowed to raise a concern and attempt to discuss it? You raised your concern. People think you're overreacting hugely. Discussion had, mission accomplished? You're asking him to do things the site literally can't do, and flipping out about a service that would let those things be done.
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Jul 1, 2013 08:01
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I would think your criticism was ridiculous and without merit even if you were leveling it at Ouya: The RPG, created by a dream team of Mike Nystul and James Malizewski, run as a flexible funding Indiegogo campaign. Has nothing to do with Evil Hat.
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Jul 1, 2013 08:01
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jivjov posted:I've never once accused Fred Hicks or Evil Hat of fraud. I said that it set of fraud-like alarm bells and that I felt it may not be keeping with Kickstarter's Terms of Service. I also did not use the "Report this Project" function, I merely used Kickstarter's Contact Us form. When your criticism amounts to "they're using a totally legit third party site to do something better than Kickstarter already does, but I'm too stupid to realize this", yeah I think you're not allowed to raise concern.
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Jul 1, 2013 08:02
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Well, I'm making no decisions on whether to accept a refund or not until I've heard back from Kickstarter about the issue. If Kickstarter is okay with third party utilities, I'll use it this once and more carefully screen my projects from here on. If it turns out that it is against the Kickstarter TOS, Evil Hat will have to come up with a way to make the Kickstarter survey system work for them. EDIT: Alouicious posted:When your criticism amounts to "they're using a totally legit third party site to do something better than Kickstarter already does, but I'm too stupid to realize this", yeah I think you're not allowed to raise concern. A third party site that I'd never heard of, had not been disclosed to backers until long after payment had been collected, and not officially endorsed by Kickstarter? Yes, yes I think I am. Also, please do not call me stupid. I'm not sinking to name calling, there's no reason for you to do so. jivjov fucked around with this message at 08:14 on Jul 1, 2013 |
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Jul 1, 2013 08:04
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You basically said "well if they can't do what they want to do using Kickstarter's lovely survey tools then maybe they shouldn't use Kickstarter for their croudsourcing" which is kind of a weird and dumb position to hold, and then you doggedly stuck to your guns even when a bunch of people with way better reps around here than me were telling you "You're getting way worked up over nothing, chillax." Kickstarter can be good at some things and bad at others. Evil Hat is probably using Kickstarter because A). Every nerd on the internet knows what Kickstarter is. B). A lot of nerds on the internet already have Kickstarter accounts. C). Kickstarter, deserved or not, has a veneer of legitimacy that other croudfunding sites don't (like, what else is there? IndieGoGo, home of the flex-funding scam? Donald Trump's crowdfunding site? Offbeatr?). But if the survey tools Kickstarter has are crap then why shouldn't they go elsewhere to use better tools for that part of the job? I don't want someone going "gosh, well I know I started this project on Kickstarter so it's Kickstarter all the way, boom or bust," I want them using the best tools for the job. Also you think Kickstarter gives a poo poo about their TOS, that's adorable.
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Jul 1, 2013 08:05
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jivjov posted:Well, I'm making no decisions on whether to accept a refund or not until I've heard back from Kickstarter about the issue. If Kickstarter is okay with third party utilities, I'll use it this once and more carefully screen my projects from here on. If it turns out that it is against the Kickstarter TOS, Evil Hat will have to come up with a way to make the Kickstarter survey system for for them. You know that even if you, personally, manage to get this Kickstarter taken to task for using an external pledge manager, there is no way to reissue surveys on Kickstarter, right? You'd either be sinking the Kickstarter or mandating that they take one thousand, seven hundred and fifty backers' slections via the woefully inadequate message system-- which is as good as sinking the Kickstarter. You're a real piece of work, you know that? quote:A third party site that I'd never heard of, had not been disclosed to backers until long after payment had been collected, and not officially endorsed by Kickstarter? A third party site which all of us are familiar with and have assured you is perfectly legitimate. How do you go about acquiring familiarity in the first place?
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Jul 1, 2013 08:10
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jivjov posted:Well, I'm making no decisions on whether to accept a refund or not until I've heard back from Kickstarter about the issue. If Kickstarter is okay with third party utilities, I'll use it this once and more carefully screen my projects from here on. If it turns out that it is against the Kickstarter TOS, Evil Hat will have to come up with a way to make the Kickstarter survey system for for them And you wondered why Fred thought you were too much of a dumb rear end in a top hat to bother dealing with.  You project an astounding level of affronted entitlement.
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Jul 1, 2013 08:10
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neongrey posted:You know that even if you, personally, manage to get this Kickstarter taken to task for using an external pledge manager, there is no way to reissue surveys on Kickstarter, right? You'd either be sinking the Kickstarter or mandating that they take one thousand, seven hundred and fifty backers' slections via the woefully inadequate message system-- which is as good as sinking the Kickstarter. You're a real piece of work, you know that? I'm sure that if Kickstarter determines that Evil Hat needs to handle backer information being collected via the official survey system, they can reset something on the back-end. I know project creators can't resend or redo surveys, but surely Kickstarter themselves can do so. neongrey posted:A third party site which all of us are familiar with and have assured you is perfectly legitimate. How do you go about acquiring familiarity in the first place? Evil Hat didn't bother to disclose that this third party utility would be required at the outset of the Kickstarter campaign. At such time I could have researched Backerkit and made a decision at a more appropriate time. As it is, they waited until long after my money had been taken before informing me that I would have to make utilize said third party utility. RPZip posted:And you wondered why Fred thought you were too much of a dumb rear end in a top hat to bother dealing with. I will again request that you stop with the name calling. I've not insulted any of you, you have no reason to do so to me. Kai Tave posted:Also you think Kickstarter gives a poo poo about their TOS, that's adorable. Why would they have a Terms of Service if not to enforce it? They've investigated, frozen, and cancelled projects before.
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Jul 1, 2013 08:14
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Please just take the refund. Why are you willing to munge up a thousand other people's pledges just because of your mental block?
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Jul 1, 2013 08:17
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jivjov posted:Is Evil Hat so above any reproach that any critisism should just be swept under the rug? Am I as a customer of Evil Hat's (I've purchased their products at retail, I'm not just a KS backer), am I not allowed to raise a concern and attempt to discuss it? Not everybody likes Fate Core. Industry middleweight Gareth Michael-Skarka, for example, is a known critic of Fred Hick's strategy of revealing every business detail and being open about everything.
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Jul 1, 2013 08:19
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jivjov posted:A third party site that I'd never heard of, had not been disclosed to backers until long after payment had been collected, and not officially endorsed by Kickstarter? Yes, yes I think I am. Also, please do not call me stupid. I'm not sinking to name calling, there's no reason for you to do so. I'm sorry, I shouldn't have called you stupid. In light of your other posts, I should have called you a mewling child who throws a shitfit about the stupidest things in the world.
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Jul 1, 2013 08:20
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jivjov posted:I'm sure that if Kickstarter determines that Evil Hat needs to handle backer information being collected via the official survey system, they can reset something on the back-end. I know project creators can't resend or redo surveys, but surely Kickstarter themselves can do so. I am pretty sure you are the only person in the entire world who gives a gently caress
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Jul 1, 2013 08:21
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jivjov posted:I've not insulted any of you, you have no reason to do so to me. How about literally wanting to get a kickstarter canceled because you imagine fraud and conspiracy around every corner in regards to a pledge manager (and basically the most honest company in the industry) 
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Jul 1, 2013 08:22
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Ettin posted:Not everybody likes Fate Core. Industry middleweight Gareth Michael-Skarka, for example, is a known critic of Fred Hick's strategy of revealing every business detail and being open about everything. Interesting that the complaint here is about "too much openness" when the decision to use Backerkit is buried 19 updates in to a concluded Kickstarter rather than in the initial project pitch or at least a pre-conclusion update. Alouicious posted:I'm sorry, I shouldn't have called you stupid. In light of your other posts, I should have called you a mewling child who throws a shitfit about the stupidest things in the world. Please educate yourself on the differences between "a mewling child throwing a shitfit" and "a customer attempting to calmly discuss a concern with a company's actions". I AM THE MOON posted:I am pretty sure you are the only person in the entire world who gives a gently caress That may be true, but its still a valid complaint, and I am taking steps to resolve the situation. Newfork posted:How about literally wanting to get a kickstarter canceled because you imagine fraud and conspiracy around every corner in regards to a pledge manager I'm not trying to the the Kickstarter cancelled. I'm trying to get the Kickstarter (specifically reward fulfillment in this instance) managed through Kickstarter.
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Jul 1, 2013 08:22
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When you get thrown out of the shop, so to speak, I don't think you can call yourself a customer anymore.
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Jul 1, 2013 08:24
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jivjov posted:Evil Hat didn't bother to disclose that this third party utility would be required at the outset of the Kickstarter campaign. At such time I could have researched Backerkit and made a decision at a more appropriate time. As it is, they waited until long after my money had been taken before informing me that I would have to make utilize said third party utility. And now they're giving you your money back and you're still bitching and trying to get Kickstarter to conduct some sort of internal inquest. I don't blame Fred for wanting to wash his hands of you. quote:Why would they have a Terms of Service if not to enforce it? They've investigated, frozen, and cancelled projects before. Kickstarter let a multi-millionaire run a "fund my life" KS using a story about sending her kid to RPG Maker camp as a paper-thin veneer over it and let her raise $20,000 bucks out of it. They've let the Penny Arcade guys run not one but two Kickstarters that were basically elaborate piss-takes, one of which was to remove a banner ad from their website, and the other of which had a goal set at "$10" which turned it into an ersatz IndieGoGo flex-funding deal which meant that instead of having to set a project goal and then attempt to meet it they basically said "give us as much money as you want and we'll just keep all of it, thanks." Most recently they let a PUA raise 16 grand for a book where he teaches you that the way to get women to sleep with you is to whip out your dick and put her hand on it and while they've since apologized for that and done all sorts of backpedaling they let the project fund to completion beforehand with plenty of time to "investigate" some reditor's "it's totally not rape I swear" activity book. More directly relevant to the discussion, lest Winson think I'm trying to drag GBS stuff into his nice clean TG forum, Kickstarter generally doesn't give gently caress one about anything after a project has funded. The "How Not to Run a Game Business" thread is full of examples of Kickstarters falling through and failing to deliver anything and at that point there's nothing Kickstarter can or cares to do. Once a project has funded that's generally when Kickstarter goes "great show everybody" and stops taking an active interest in it, so your chronic brainlock here is even stupider in light of plenty of prior evidence that any "issue" you try to raise with Kickstarter is going to be met with a shrug. Plenty of people frothed out over the Shadowrun CRPG having to incorporate some sort of DRM after talking up how it was going to be DRM free and guess what Kickstarter did about that? Nothing. Kickstarter is pretty inconsistent at times about how strenuously they move to enforce their TOS, especially when it seems like they might get a nice payday out of it. I expect any correspondence you receive back from them on this matter to be some politely-worded variation of "That's nice, dear." Kai Tave fucked around with this message at 08:30 on Jul 1, 2013 |
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Jul 1, 2013 08:24
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jivjov posted:Please educate yourself on the differences between "a mewling child throwing a shitfit" and "a customer attempting to calmly discuss a concern with a company's actions". This would be great if your concern made any sense to any rational human being in the world.
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Jul 1, 2013 08:24
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jivjov posted:Please educate yourself on the differences between "a mewling child throwing a shitfit" and "a customer attempting to calmly discuss a concern with a company's actions".
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Jul 1, 2013 08:24
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Kai Tave posted:And now they're giving you your money back and you're still bitching and trying to get Kickstarter to conduct some sort of internal inquest. I don't blame Fred for wanting to wash his hands of you. Much of the conversation with Mr. Hicks (and the message sent to Kickstarter staff) was done well before he decided to "wash his hands of me". Chaotic Neutral posted:That's easy! The former is you, the latter is nothing even remotely related to your pedantic dickery in which you whine about the Kickstarter TOS, apparently expect Kickstarter to bend over backwards to get you some kind of third option when they're most likely just going to try to get you a refund (like you've already been offered), and say 'I could just make a throwaway account' but then don't in favor of digging into the sand. I'm not asking for a "third option". I'm asking for the option that's supposed to be there from the start. I pledge through Kickstarter, I provide my information through Kickstarter. Like the other 40+ projects I've backed.
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Jul 1, 2013 08:26
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jivjov posted:I'm not asking for a "third option". I'm asking for the option that's supposed to be there from the start. I pledge through Kickstarter, I provide my information through Kickstarter. Like the other 40+ projects I've backed.
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Jul 1, 2013 08:28
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jivjov posted:I'm not asking for a "third option". I'm asking for the option that's supposed to be there from the start. I pledge through Kickstarter, I provide my information through Kickstarter. Like the other 40+ projects I've backed. You are literally asking for a third option.
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Jul 1, 2013 08:28
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jivjov posted:Much of the conversation with Mr. Hicks (and the message sent to Kickstarter staff) was done well before he decided to "wash his hands of me". I want to shove you into a locker and give you a swirlie you arent a customer any more so you get your money back and its over quit throwing a giant sperg fit
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Jul 1, 2013 08:28
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Zereth posted:Too bad it's not there, and Evil Hat literally can't do the things you want through Kickstarter's built-in survey function. They were able to handle pledges for Fate Core just fine, which had something like 6 or 7 different physical books that you could get in several combinations, as well as handling pledging extra money for different shipping options. With this Kickstarter its so much simpler. "Which Dice set(s) do you want?, Group A ships out soon, Group B ships out not so soon". The Kickstarter surveys are limited, yes. Not ideal, yes. But completely broken and impossible to do anything with? Not by a long shot.
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Jul 1, 2013 08:31
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jivjov posted:I'm not trying to the the Kickstarter cancelled. I'm trying to get the Kickstarter (specifically reward fulfillment in this instance) managed through Kickstarter.
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Jul 1, 2013 08:31
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I'm gonna talk to Mikan about using BackerKit for Inverse World's surveys when we send those out in a couple months, thanks in advance for the heads up that that exists and how cool it is everybody.
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Jul 1, 2013 08:31
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jivjov posted:They were able to handle pledges for Fate Core just fine, It wasn't just fine, that's why they've picked an alternative for this Kickstarter.
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Jul 1, 2013 08:32
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The Chairman posted:But why? You pledged through KS, and the campaign evaluated its options and opted to fulfill through KS via Backerkit. Nearly everyone who's replied to you, including people who have fulfilled pledge rewards themselves, have told you that using a third party fulfillment site is normal and often more efficient than KS's own tools. This is like the very definition of a non-issue. None of the 40+ other projects I've backed have required me to use a third party fulfillment site. Maybe my sample size is too small, but that doesn't scream "normal" to me. gnome7 posted:I'm gonna talk to Mikan about using BackerKit for Inverse World's surveys when we send those out in a couple months, thanks in advance for the heads up that that exists and how cool it is everybody. Suddenly I'm very glad I'm only in for PDFs on Inverse World. neongrey posted:It wasn't just fine, that's why they've picked an alternative for this Kickstarter. Then why wasn't that alternative made clear to backers before the Kickstarter concluded?
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Jul 1, 2013 08:35
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Seriously, all Kickstarter itself is is a way for people to give other people money, that's it. Kickstarter doesn't give a gently caress past that, they aren't going to make Evil Hat go back and use their own lovely survey tools, it is out of their hands and in Evil Hat's now. Kickstarter doesn't care how Evil Hat fulfills its pledges, or frankly if Evil Hat fulfills them at all. How many failed gaming Kickstarters have resulted in successful class-action lawsuits? How many nerds have banded together to successfully take some guy to task for not delivering their promised retroclone and "Ale and Whores" t-shirts?jivjov posted:Then why wasn't that alternative made clear to backers before the Kickstarter concluded? Maybe because Fred, in his naivete, couldn't conceive of someone as massively whiny and entitled as you actually existing.
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Jul 1, 2013 08:35
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Just popping in to remind everyone that Retrocausality will never let you down, run around or desert you, and my game is available from DTRPG without having to give your information to a third party. All proceeds will go towards me buying sweet merch at PAX Aus.
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Jul 1, 2013 08:39
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I've... seen posts you people wouldn't believe... [laughs] goatse on fire off the shoulder of FYAD. I watched flamewars glitter in the dark near the GBS Gate. And none of them were as lovely as your stupid loving crusade
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Jul 1, 2013 08:39
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What I'm saying is there is not a single person in the entire world who agrees with you on this, and you are wrong and dumb and need to sit in the Shame Corner until people forget how wrong and dumb you are
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Jul 1, 2013 08:41
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