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homullus: Mar 27, 2009

Halloween Jack posted:

I'm pretty sure Mage Knight has zombies in it, though.

If it did, it wouldn't change my list.

# ? Jun 10, 2016 18:31

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# ? Apr 19, 2024 22:56

Ewen Cluney: May 8, 2012; Ask me about
Japanese elfgames!

Kai Tave posted:

tl;dr it's not really a case that boardgames are all shining golden gods of immaculate design while RPGs are so dumb and goddamn crazy, however it is fair to say that simply due to the nature of boardgames in general there's far less placed upon the shoulders of the fans to pick up the designers' slack and critical analysis of boardgames isn't considered the province of powergamers or storygamist swine pushing a homofascist agenda to steal your precious bodily fluids.

Reading up on the history of D&D, I was really surprised to learn that wargame design was really rough and vague, and back in the day referees became a thing because it was a good way to keep games from descending into dumb arguments. D&D had vague rules that were kind of poorly explained and required lots of house ruling basically because that Gygax & co. were part of a gaming culture where that was the norm. Having never been into wargames I had assumed that they were more tightly designed like board games (and my limited experience with Critter Commandos seemed to bear that out), and then every time someone shows me an example of Warhammer's quirks I don't even know what to say. (And that's to say nothing of Age of Sigmar.)

So RPGs seem to have come about partly because of vague wargame rules that required a person there to keep them from not falling apart, but it's still kinda frustrating that people resist doing things differently from (how they imagine) it was done it 1974.

And yeah, IME the middle and upper tiers of board game design are way above the same for RPG design, but there's definitely games like Munchkin that people apparently play because of basically everything except the game's quality as a work of game design. (My experience with Fantasy Flight has been that they make really good games but suck at organizing their rulebooks, even for smaller games.)

# ? Jun 10, 2016 20:49

Halloween Jack: Sep 12, 2003; I WILL CUT OFF BOTH OF MY ARMS BEFORE I VOTE FOR ANYONE THAT IS MORE POPULAR THAN BERNIE!!!!!

Ewen Cluney posted:

Reading up on the history of D&D, I was really surprised to learn that wargame design was really rough and vague, and back in the day referees became a thing because it was a good way to keep games from descending into dumb arguments. D&D had vague rules that were kind of poorly explained and required lots of house ruling basically because that Gygax & co. were part of a gaming culture where that was the norm. Having never been into wargames I had assumed that they were more tightly designed like board games (and my limited experience with Critter Commandos seemed to bear that out), and then every time someone shows me an example of Warhammer's quirks I don't even know what to say. (And that's to say nothing of Age of Sigmar.)

What's really interesting to me is all the games that came out in the wake of D&D that were neither here nor there--games touted as roleplaying games that only had rules for encounters and how to get from one encounter to the next, wargaming rules with brief notes on roleplaying individual characters in the back of the book, and some other weird variations. And many of these products were be ostensibly universal, but essentially recognized that you were going to use them as supplements to D&D, and statted everything in D&D terms. Or they'd make vague suggestions regarding what scale of miniature to use, and so on.

I don't want to actually read through most of them, though. They're hard on the eyes, literally.

# ? Jun 10, 2016 20:55

clockworkjoe: May 31, 2000; Rolled a 1 on the random encounter table, didn't you?

Some good insight into RPG pricing (PDF vs print) from Fred Hicks: https://plus.google.com/u/0/+FredHicks/posts/SyCfVLFzdxQ

# ? Jun 24, 2016 23:30

moths: Aug 25, 2004; I would also still appreciate some danger.

So is every UK / EU Kickstarter I backed going to implode now?

# ? Jun 25, 2016 00:26

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

moths posted:

So is every UK / EU Kickstarter I backed going to implode now?

Depends on a lot of factors. Like whether Brexit actually sticks and how the companies handled their finances.

Expect shipping costs to go up though, shipping costs always go up.

# ? Jun 25, 2016 00:29

Leperflesh: May 17, 2007

The Brexit vote was a non-binding referendum. Assuming the (probably new) government of the UK elects to bow to the will of the voters, the process of exiting the EU will take at least two years, during most of which no actual regulations will change.

So from a regulatory perspective, no, any kickstarter delivered in a reasonable amount of time will be fine.

However, the Brexit is an economic black hole from which no light from the future can escape. E.g., it's a massive uncertainty for UK and EU economic future, and markets hate uncertainty. So expect substantial changes in the UK pound's value against the dollar, Euro, and other currencies, as well as potentially significant impacts on the UK and European economies. Either or both of those things could affect any kickstarter in the UK or EU which is running on thin margins; for example as they see forex imbalance erode their ability to pay for their Chinese manufacturing costs, or if significant numbers of european backers try to get refunds, or if people working on kickstarters in their spare time suddenly lose their jobs and have to drop their hobby of making their cool boardgame for something more important.

The crux of this is that nobody really knows. The world's fifth largest economy has declared its intention to exit the european union. Anyone who claims to know what the exact results of that will be, a month from now or six months or two years or six years, is deluded or lying. We just don't know.

# ? Jun 25, 2016 00:52

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

Leperflesh posted:

The Brexit vote was a non-binding referendum. Assuming the (probably new) government of the UK elects to bow to the will of the voters, the process of exiting the EU will take at least two years, during most of which no actual regulations will change.

So from a regulatory perspective, no, any kickstarter delivered in a reasonable amount of time will be fine.

However, the Brexit is an economic black hole from which no light from the future can escape. E.g., it's a massive uncertainty for UK and EU economic future, and markets hate uncertainty. So expect substantial changes in the UK pound's value against the dollar, Euro, and other currencies, as well as potentially significant impacts on the UK and European economies. Either or both of those things could affect any kickstarter in the UK or EU which is running on thin margins; for example as they see forex imbalance erode their ability to pay for their Chinese manufacturing costs, or if significant numbers of european backers try to get refunds, or if people working on kickstarters in their spare time suddenly lose their jobs and have to drop their hobby of making their cool boardgame for something more important.

The crux of this is that nobody really knows. The world's fifth largest economy has declared its intention to exit the european union. Anyone who claims to know what the exact results of that will be, a month from now or six months or two years or six years, is deluded or lying. We just don't know.

On the bright side, at least hopefully nobody in the UK was actually relying on the dollar being weak against the pound, unlike a certain Canadian company from years back who claimed to have been ruined by a suddenly stronger Canadian dollar.

# ? Jun 25, 2016 01:32

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

Leperflesh posted:

The crux of this is that nobody really knows. The world's fifth largest economy has declared its intention to exit the european union. Anyone who claims to know what the exact results of that will be, a month from now or six months or two years or six years, is deluded or lying. We just don't know.

Didn't doing that drop them a spot to sixth largest?

# ? Jun 25, 2016 02:07

neongrey: Feb 28, 2007; Plaguing your posts with incidental music.

Zereth posted:

Didn't doing that drop them a spot to sixth largest?

Yeeeeeep.

# ? Jun 25, 2016 03:53

thespaceinvader: Mar 30, 2011; The slightest touch from a Gol-Shogeg will result in Instant Death!

Brexit is probably going to gently caress up international deliveries to one of the biggest board game markets only very shortly after people worked out that they could ship to the EU and have people from the EU send the product out to handle customs fees and delivery times more efficiently.

# ? Jun 25, 2016 13:30

Dr. Buttass: Aug 12, 2013; AWFUL SOMETHING

Leperflesh posted:

The Brexit vote was a non-binding referendum. Assuming the (probably new) government of the UK elects to bow to the will of the voters, the process of exiting the EU will take at least two years, during most of which no actual regulations will change.

Bad news: If I understand correctly, two years isn't "at least" how long it will take. I think it's the point at which, having announced its intention to leave the EU, the UK will be ejected from the EU whether they've actually done anything about it themselves or not. I'm not what you'd call a political expert so I'm not sure about the specific ramifications of this fact but I'm pretty sure it means that whatever's going to happen is going to happen faster than that.

Of course that does sort of depend on whether or not the EU holds Britain to their non-binding referendum, but I hear Scotland decided this was a good time for another bid for independence so I'd say everyone involved is at the very least really worried that they will, if not certain.

# ? Jun 26, 2016 07:48

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Dr. Buttass posted:

Of course that does sort of depend on whether or not the EU holds Britain to their non-binding referendum, but I hear Scotland decided this was a good time for another bid for independence so I'd say everyone involved is at the very least really worried that they will, if not certain.

The recent statements made by the EU suggest that they're taking this very seriously and that they'd like the UK to please leave as expeditiously as possible in accordance with Article 50.

Ostensibly so that they can get all the uncertainty out of the way and the markets can calm down.

# ? Jun 26, 2016 08:19

Lemon-Lime: Aug 6, 2009

Dr. Buttass posted:

Bad news: If I understand correctly, two years isn't "at least" how long it will take. I think it's the point at which, having announced its intention to leave the EU, the UK will be ejected from the EU whether they've actually done anything about it themselves or not.

That's not the case.

The referendum on its own doesn't mean much from a legal perspective. Article 50 of the Treaty of Lisbon doesn't have a provision for "what happens when a referendum is taken and people vote to leave the EU," so there's no timescale in which the UK has to trigger exit negotiations. What Article 50 does specify is that when the exit negotiations are triggered, they have to be completed within two years.

Unless the EU decides to bend the rules and treat the referendum as the UK's Article-50-compliant notice of exit (which is unlikely unless the UK drags its feet in issuing the real notice), it's up to the UK to decide when to officially notify the EU of their intent to leave, and thus trigger the Article 50 negotiations.

The EU wants the UK gone as fast as possible, and so will be putting pressure on the UK to commit to a hard date for the exit notice within the next handful of months, but this won't happen while Cameron is still in power (he was pro-EU), which means the earliest it can happen is after the Tory party conference in October, where the Tories will be electing a new party leader to replace Cameron as Prime Minister. The EU really isn't happy about this, but they unfortunately don't really have a choice.

This is assuming this whole thing doesn't trigger another general election before then, in which case the racists will probably make huge gains.

Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 12:06 on Jun 26, 2016

# ? Jun 26, 2016 12:00

Nuns with Guns: Jul 23, 2010; It's fine.
Don't worry about it.

So apparently somebody decided the best use of their time was backing the Blue Rose 2.0 kickstarter at $200.00 so they could create an original troll OC and got super upset when the book's writers CENSORED it

Here's the character's description in the current book draft:

here's his rage:

quote:

The character Xhan Burobar was significantly censored. I cannot even recognize the character anymore, apart from his name.
Firstly, the sentient bird was named "Trigger-Warning" and NOT "Omen". It was Trigger-Warning that flew to out to recall Xhan Burobar from his hunt and not the psychic cry of his wife. Secondly, Xhan Burobar's family was attacked by the Devil Woman from Aldis and this violence upon his family enraged Xhan Burobar to become a brutal killer seeking vengeance like Shogun Assassin or The Bride from Kill Bill. His savagery in combat caused other members of the Sovereign's Finest to treat him as an outcast. The backstory of Xhan Burobar has important significant on the ostracism faced by many people everyday because they dare to think differently and independently.
Censoring the backstory the way your editors just did is terribly disrespectful to we who backed your project. You are basically silencing world views that differ from your own and such practices impoverish works of art and literature. :-(

(remember that Blue Rose is the romantic fantasy rpg that gets certain types of rpg nerds in frothing rage for daring to cater to women/queer people/people of color, Aldis is the default starting nation that generally aligns with our modern sensibilities regarding the treatment of minorities)

quote:

This is not the first project I backed. I have many contributions and NOBODY else has destroyed my character concept the way the editors of The Blue Rose AGE have completely destroyed the core aspects of the backstory of Xhan Burobar. The editors did not even have the simple decency to get in touch with me during the writing process to offer some mutually agreed upon adjustments.

Other creators whose work I support here Kickstarter always show respect for their backer�s financial investment and ideas. Those other professional content creators do not behave like Tyrants abusing their positions of power to completely destroy my character's backstory and just steal my character's name to attach to a completely different backstory. This is like paying for medium rare steak at a restaurant then, without even being offered alternative menu options, just having seaweed being shoved into your face instead. Never has any other Kickstarter creator treated me so badly and disrespectfully

quote:

Thirdly, the wife of Xhan Burobar was a mature teenager (and not a child, big difference), in a loving relationship with her husband, because, as part of human diversity, biology is not fixed on numeric age. Many people are mentally mature teenagers fully capable of forming loving relationships and even getting married in a fictional world like the Blue Rose one. On earth a 17 year old is a teenager but many are also mentally mature enough to marry in other non-American cultures. Yes, the whole world is not restricted by the principles of the U.S.A. alone. It is selfish to enforce only the American ideals on a work of fiction when you have writers from diverse cultures are contributing their own cultural storylines.

quote:

Fourthly, the other members of the Sovereigns Finest are not without their own prejudices. Xhan Burobar's story arc in its original uncensored format is important because showcases how prejudice infiltrates even the best and most honorable communities. It is important to reflect upon how Xhan Burobar feels ostracized by other members of the Sovereigns Finest because of his Quentin Tarantino style of vengeance and predatory instincts.

quote:

@Caldorian, prejudice, power and oppression can all be seen in the behavior of the creators in completely destroying my character concept.
(a) Mutual respect and tolerance involves entering dialog to work with the contributors to create something that makes both happy.
(b) Bullying is when the person with POWER enforces the viewpoint of the POWERFUL Creator upon the under-powered fan. :-(

quote:

@Caldorian, No other creator on Kickstarter has ever treated my contributions like so much trash. This is the very first time my character concept was lobotomized beyond all recognition. :-(

quote:

For reference: Kill Bill Volume 1: Gogo Yubari, 17 year old awesome bodyguard of O-Ren Ishii. A character concept executed beautifully. :-)

Sooo, thoughts? If someone pays $200.00 to lay a massive poo poo in your kickstarted product, do you allow it in?

# ? Jul 4, 2016 00:01

Lemon-Lime: Aug 6, 2009

Nuns with Guns posted:

Sooo, thoughts? If someone pays $200.00 to lay a massive poo poo in your kickstarted product, do you allow it in?

No, you don't, that's why you make fan contribution tiers subject to editing!

# ? Jul 4, 2016 00:04

Nuns with Guns: Jul 23, 2010; It's fine.
Don't worry about it.

Lemon-Lime posted:

No, you don't, that's why you make fan contribution tiers subject to editing!

Funny enough the $200.00 tiers do warn on them that all entries are subject to publisher approval.

# ? Jul 4, 2016 00:10

Kai Tave: Jul 2, 2012; Fallen Rib

Nuns with Guns posted:

Funny enough the $200.00 tiers do warn on them that all entries are subject to publisher approval.

Pretty much every "pay to get something of yours included in the product" tier I've seen across multiple Kickstarters, even if it's something as simple as a picture of someone as an NPC or whatever, has some sort of disclaimer that mentions that yes, backer requests are subject to publisher approval so you can't make someone include a picture of your dick in their book or Sir Niggerstomper58 or whatever.

If I were Chris Pramas, or whoever's in charge of this version of Blue Rose, I'd just refund the guy his $200 and say "okay, we'll replace it with something else then" and be done with it.

# ? Jul 4, 2016 00:21

Ettin: Oct 2, 2010

If this dude came into my restaurant and started telling me that people who won't let his OC gently caress a teen are the real bigots I'd shove seaweed into his face too, tbh

# ? Jul 4, 2016 00:38

Kai Tave: Jul 2, 2012; Fallen Rib

I mean I'm sure this is more or less what the guy wanted, "his bird was named TRIGGER WARNING not Omen how dare you" seems a bit too on the nose for someone to seriously imagine that this was going to make it through editing without comment, so now he gets to play the "Green Ronin are censoring bullies!" card even though his submission is pretty clearly trash garbage, but this is the game that people have been deliberately misrepresenting for over a decade now so I'm sure it won't matter that this guy is planting his flag on the hill of But She's Of Legal Age In Other Countries.

# ? Jul 4, 2016 00:46

Alien Rope Burn: Dec 5, 2004; _{I wanna be a saikyo HERO!}

They really should have refunded him, but maybe they were just trying to deal with it as earnestly as possible? Hard to say.

# ? Jul 4, 2016 00:56

Zurui: Apr 20, 2005; Even now...

I dunno. They refer to the wife as ambiguously "young" and aside from that and the name-change for the awful bird, it sounds like just a lot of editing for space. This dude probably dumped ten pages of backstory on them. There's nothing there that necessarily contradicts his Intricately Woven And Tremendously Relevant Backstory, they just didn't put in some parts (because no one actually running a game is going to give a poo poo). That's not censorship. Xhann Burooobear's honor is intact.

# ? Jul 4, 2016 01:05

Cassa: Jan 29, 2009

That is an awful attempt at trolling, and well done to them for getting an easy $200.

# ? Jul 4, 2016 01:31

Fuego Fish: Dec 5, 2004; By tooth and claw!

What a colossal loving clown.

# ? Jul 4, 2016 01:33

Ningyou: Aug 14, 2005; we aaaaare
not your kind of pearls
you seem kind of pho~ny
everything's a liiiiie

we aaaare
not your kind of pearls
something in your make~up
don't see eye to e~y~e

Zurui posted:

I dunno. They refer to the wife as ambiguously "young" and aside from that and the name-change for the awful bird, it sounds like just a lot of editing for space. This dude probably dumped ten pages of backstory on them. There's nothing there that necessarily contradicts his Intricately Woven And Tremendously Relevant Backstory, they just didn't put in some parts (because no one actually running a game is going to give a poo poo). That's not censorship. Xhann Burooobear's honor is intact.

um excuse me it's not ten pages of generic backstory it's a very layered and intricate tale of love and loss and two-fisted bird stuff and i must say i am astonished at this pointlessly cruel act of silencing and birdsecution against xbob blueberry and his faithful spirit guide "triggered beta cuck" the owl

# ? Jul 4, 2016 01:43

remusclaw: Dec 8, 2009

He gave $200 to a game he hated for the sake of having something to whine about, with full knowledge that it would be edited. The only people who will care about his whining are those who are already angry that the game is even being made at all, and those who support the game will pay no attention to the extra voice of anger on top of all the other shitheads being loudly angry about a game they don't have to buy and which was explicitly not made with them as a target audience. Sounds like a $200 win to me.

# ? Jul 4, 2016 01:49

Leperflesh: May 17, 2007

The man's sword is his wife. If you know what I mean.

# ? Jul 4, 2016 01:50

Leperflesh: May 17, 2007

I'm saying he's in a loving and committed relationship with his penis

# ? Jul 4, 2016 01:51

Ningyou: Aug 14, 2005; we aaaaare
not your kind of pearls
you seem kind of pho~ny
everything's a liiiiie

we aaaare
not your kind of pearls
something in your make~up
don't see eye to e~y~e

but see it's an augmented sword-penis powered by the spirit of his dead teen wife

basically this is the bionic commando reboot sequel no one wanted

# ? Jul 4, 2016 01:53

Alien Rope Burn: Dec 5, 2004; _{I wanna be a saikyo HERO!}

He could be a genuinely confused fan, who knows? Stranger nerds have happened.

# ? Jul 4, 2016 01:53

remusclaw: Dec 8, 2009

I think naming the bird "Trigger Warning" is a pretty good clue that this isn't the case.

# ? Jul 4, 2016 01:56

ProfessorCirno: Feb 17, 2011; The strongest! The smartest!
The rightest!

Alien Rope Burn posted:

He could be a genuinely confused fan, who knows? Stranger nerds have happened.

Name of the bird is a dead give away, really. If he didn't have that, he could've covered his tracks a lot better.

# ? Jul 4, 2016 01:57

Kurieg: Jul 19, 2012; RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20

Ningyou posted:

but see it's an augmented sword-penis powered by the spirit of his dead teen wife

basically this is the bionic commando reboot sequel no one wanted

Swing between buildings over the poisonous radiation gas via a rope attached to your pelvis.

# ? Jul 4, 2016 01:59

claw game handjob: Mar 27, 2007; pinch pinch scrape pinch
ow ow fuck it's caught
i'm bleeding
JESUS TURN IT OFF
WHY ARE YOU STILL SMILING

Ningyou posted:

but see it's an augmented sword-penis powered by the spirit of his dead teen wife

basically this is the bionic commando reboot sequel no one wanted

A) wrong, I want it
B) https://youtu.be/XLVYkz5WEio fits so much better than ever now

# ? Jul 4, 2016 01:59

Ningyou: Aug 14, 2005; we aaaaare
not your kind of pearls
you seem kind of pho~ny
everything's a liiiiie

we aaaare
not your kind of pearls
something in your make~up
don't see eye to e~y~e

END ME SCOOB posted:

A) wrong, I want it
B) https://youtu.be/XLVYkz5WEio fits so much better than ever now

a) would you say there is a market niche for a sequel done up as a dating sim where xbob brambleby has to choose a new sword dick from between 5 swords that are also dongs that are also haunted by ghostly gal pals with different personalities

b) god, all i can think of is plowing through the end of that out of spite and your whole BLOOD PACT thing and being absolutely bewildered when i heard YOU HAVE TO gently caress IT at four in the morning

# ? Jul 4, 2016 02:16

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

Ningyou posted:

a) would you say there is a market niche for a sequel done up as a dating sim where xbob brambleby has to choose a new sword dick from between 5 swords that are also dongs that are also haunted by ghostly gal pals with different personalities

b) god, all i can think of is plowing through the end of that out of spite and your whole BLOOD PACT thing and being absolutely bewildered when i heard YOU HAVE TO gently caress IT at four in the morning

Now I'm just imagining a really hosed up Saint's Row sequel.

# ? Jul 4, 2016 02:28

Nuns with Guns: Jul 23, 2010; It's fine.
Don't worry about it.

Ningyou posted:

a) would you say there is a market niche for a sequel done up as a dating sim where xbob brambleby has to choose a new sword dick from between 5 swords that are also dongs that are also haunted by ghostly gal pals with different personalities

b) god, all i can think of is plowing through the end of that out of spite and your whole BLOOD PACT thing and being absolutely bewildered when i heard YOU HAVE TO gently caress IT at four in the morning

All of this would be a better addition to blue rose than this guy's oc, which is just an insufferable Kratos knockoff when all sneering attempts to poo poo on the game are purged from his flavor text

# ? Jul 4, 2016 02:37

Alien Rope Burn: Dec 5, 2004; _{I wanna be a saikyo HERO!}

ProfessorCirno posted:

Name of the bird is a dead give away, really. If he didn't have that, he could've covered his tracks a lot better.

I'm just hesitant to attribute conspiratorial malice to an idea that earnestly dumb but I suppose the two things aren't exclusive.

# ? Jul 4, 2016 03:41

Zurui: Apr 20, 2005; Even now...

Leperflesh posted:

I'm saying he's in a loving and committed relationship with his penis

Whatever this guy does to his sword, I can assure you it's not "loving."

# ? Jul 4, 2016 03:50

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# ? Apr 19, 2024 22:56

Nuns with Guns: Jul 23, 2010; It's fine.
Don't worry about it.

Alien Rope Burn posted:

I'm just hesitant to attribute conspiratorial malice to an idea that earnestly dumb but I suppose the two things aren't exclusive.

Nah there's no way this is accidental. Either this guy actually actually paid $200 to submit trigger warning the owl and his statutory rape pal knowing it wouldn't get through as is, or he submitted what is in the draft and is lying now so he can claim they censored his vision. The big giveaway is his trumpeting about tyranny and trying to inject deep seated corruption into the sovereign's finest. Blue rose's more fanatical haters say it's too lovely dovey and perfect and claim that the only way to have a campaign in the setting is by turning it into a secretly corrupt genderspecial dictatorship because they've never actually read the book and only know the setting through reviews layered in disingenuous hyperbole.

Now, assuming it really was submitted with the content he said it had, the real question is why the writers didn't look at this oc outline and immediately email him back asking for a better one in three days or they would return his money?

Nuns with Guns fucked around with this message at 04:29 on Jul 4, 2016

# ? Jul 4, 2016 04:11

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > TG As An Industry - Past, Present, Future

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