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MadScientistWorking posted:Transformers always tended to do something that I enjoyed which is the type of old person pandering where kids wouldn't necessarily get the joke but older fans would. Animated had a bunch of references like Weird Al being Wreck Gar and using the original voice actor for Blur. Admittedly, Im not sure how you could translate that to the RPG industry. The conversation about how Wizards of the Coast does not even have the talent necessary to make a good new RPG makes me sad, and makes me think about the concept of pandering to adults while actually bringing in new blood...which I am assuming was the actual one-line pitch for 5th Edition. But I am sure if they had actually wanted it to succeed in this capacity they would have needed to reach out to the pre-3rd Edition designers to give the appearance of generations working together. I remember reading about how Gary Gygax was ready in the mid-80s to completely overhaul the D&D lines to make them easier to play when he was ousted...I bet his ideas would seem quaint at best to modern eyes, but it would have been nice to at least know what the people who wrote those rules thought was wrong with them before trying to build a new system with callbacks. Perhaps it is obvious that I have seen precisely nothing of 5th Edition (I have never even seen it for sale at Gen-Con that I can recall) and maybe the claims of echoing earlier systems are just smoke and mirrors, I have no idea. Related, I loved Halloween Jack's write-up and the subsequent discussion it provoked. For as much as it is easy to dismiss the Actual Old Guard as single-minded, tell me you would not be at least vaguely intrigued by what would happen if you told Frank Mentzer to design a new RPG rather than getting the results of their third-generation fanboys. Hah. Though that reminds me, I need to read through my Lejendary Adventures boxed set, which might functionally answer that question anyway.
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May 8, 2015 17:44
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As far as What Gary Wanted is concerned, remember he went on to design Dangerous Journeys and Lejendary Adventure, which were not very good and rather behind the times. He later said that Castles & Crusades was basically what he wanted AD&D 3rd Edition to be, but he had a business relationship with Troll Lord and Gygax was always a huckster, to put it bluntly.
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May 8, 2015 18:12
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Halloween Jack posted:As far as What Gary Wanted is concerned, remember he went on to design Dangerous Journeys and Lejendary Adventure, which were not very good and rather behind the times. He later said that Castles & Crusades was basically what he wanted AD&D 3rd Edition to be, but he had a business relationship with Troll Lord and Gygax was always a huckster, to put it bluntly. Gygax's post-TSR run of designs and publications really doesn't create the impression of a guy who was cut down in his prime (by every grognards bette noir, no less) and that it was a tragedy that he never got to see what he would have designed (we did, it was Dangerous Journeys).
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May 8, 2015 18:34
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FMguru posted:Gygax's post-TSR run of designs and publications really doesn't create the impression of a guy who was cut down in his prime (by every grognards bette noir, no less) and that it was a tragedy that he never got to see what he would have designed (we did, it was Dangerous Journeys). I really am specifically wondering about Frank Mentzer though, as he is I believe the only major designer from the early days (who anyone credits with improving the game anyway) still living?
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May 8, 2015 18:53
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Zeb Cook maybe?
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May 8, 2015 19:29
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Cook's alive. So are Rob Kuntz, Tim Kask, and Jim Ward. As far as I know, most of the early module writers are still around, too.
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May 8, 2015 19:52
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Quarex posted:I really am specifically wondering about Frank Mentzer though, as he is I believe the only major designer from the early days (who anyone credits with improving the game anyway) still living? I think he still goes to GenCon every year, so he's alive and kicking. Him and his wife ran 3 bakeries for several years before closing them down in 2008, and then went on to create Eldritch Enterprises, which is pretty Geocities in design.
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May 8, 2015 20:20
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Bieeardo posted:Oh, yeah. It would have been '85 or '86, but the local TRU had an entire book display for D&D stuff, ten feet by six feet if it was an inch, filled with all kinds of BECMI and AD&D modules and related stuff. In another aisle they had Colorforms and Shrinky-Dinks of semi-iconic figures and monsters (not from the cartoon, oddly), humanoid and monster figures with sword-swingin' action built to a slightly beefier scale than He-Man, and D&D candy with statblocks on the back of the box up at the register. That sounds awesome. I want to go back to that time. (I was 5-6 at the time, a little bit too young perhaps. 8-10 year old me if I was actually allowed to play D&D would have lost his mind). Toph Bei Fong posted:They might could pull if off, if they ever get the movie rights untangled. Hasbro certainly wants them badly, that's for sure. "Hasbro contends that the contract does not include cheap-arse straight-to-TV/DVD projects possibly made for the sole purposes of holding onto the rights." Worked for the Fantastic Four licence .
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May 8, 2015 21:49
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Halloween Jack posted:Cook's alive. So are Rob Kuntz, Tim Kask, and Jim Ward. As far as I know, most of the early module writers are still around, too. It also goes to show how little I actually remember casually about original D&D that I forgot any of those abovementioned guys were involved in its design. I just remember them as "skilled hanger-on, Dragon Guy, Metamorphosis Alpha" Edit: Foolster41 posted:"Hasbro contends that the contract does not include cheap-arse straight-to-TV/DVD projects possibly made for the sole purposes of holding onto the rights." 
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May 9, 2015 00:28
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Quarex posted:Though somehow I imagine someone out of the gaming hobby between 1974 and 2014 is not a good candidate for a resurgence of old-school game design. That would just make someone fit right in with the OSR, since it's hell-bent on pretending the last 30-40 years of advances in game design and social justice never happened. 
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May 9, 2015 00:37
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The lack of design breadth on the part of the current WotC / Paizo elfgame designers hits the nail on the head, I think. When I did the Pathfinder review, I noted that almost all their designers were grounded almost solely in d20 design with a smattering of other TSR product experience like AD&D 2e or Alternity. As a result, cargo cult design runs rampant, with their games acting of sets of house rules on D&D 3e rather than taking a serious look at the fundamentals of the games they're making. gently caress, say what you want about Sean K. Reynolds, at least he is (was?) trying to confront some of his "common wisdom" with Five Moons, even if he was still doing it from deep within his elfgame myopia. A friend of mine long ago compared the weekly gaming group to a religious ritual - that is, a social gathering where people meet, engage in a series of symbolic actions dictated by a book, support each other's belief, and seek a kind of greater mythology. That may be oversimplifying, but boy, some people got pissed off by that comparison. And though it's purely anecdotal, I find those most upset are also those most interested in it as a ritual. But it's also a technology, and a lot of goons are more interested in the technology and design aspect of game design. Grogs are ritualists, and though there's nothing wrong with that if that's what you in for - I can enjoy a spot of AD&D even though it's an incoherent, confusing, fetal sort of game - but man, you have to recognize that for what it is. Fandom is notoriously bad at self-reflection, but it's the only way this industry can move forward. I think ultimately the grogs will lose out, and what we're looking at with something like 5e is more a symbol of how hard the reaction to change can be than the actual prevention of change. But boy, it can be frustrating to watch in the meantime.
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May 9, 2015 01:12
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Not sure if this has been brought up before, but this is the sure sign of mature players in a mature industry Conducting legal 'negotiations' via Kickstarter update is the way of the future. This is the Dust: Operation Babylon KS project and Dust vs Battlefront, for any not familiar.
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May 10, 2015 13:19
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It's all kind of a mess. The DUST team was publicly slagging them and crying foul while BF took the high road for the first few months. People read BF's silence in the social media slapfight as confirmation that IT WAS ALL TRUE. And when Battlefront finally came out with their side, people are bitching about how immature and unprofessional they are for engaging in these tactics. I think it's more a case that the backers had already decided BF was to blame (in a vacuum of other information) and nerds can't admit to ever being wrong or used as leverage.
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May 10, 2015 17:11
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Saw this on Facebook and thought of this thread: https://www.facebook.com/James.MDC/posts/10206625097447365quote:If there ever was a parasite (scumbag) in this Tabletop/Hobby industry that needed a calling out, it is Ken Whitman. Well now after some 15 years of not delivering and killing companies, he even has his own memes page... https://www.pinterest.com/jasper0796/dont-fund-d20-entertainment-kickstarters-or-ken-wh/
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Jun 1, 2015 06:50
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Nice to see there's still people out there who'll say that pointing out bad behavior is "trolling" or some how inappropriate.
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Jun 1, 2015 12:28
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All of that seems remarkably light on detail.
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Jun 1, 2015 13:10
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Didn't it turn out that the disappearing Kickstarter account was because he wouldn't respond to some former employee trying to unlink her Facebook from it, so she finally severed and that closed the account? Like, still lazy and kind of worrying, but not a scam. Edit: Y'know, I think the scummiest thing here might be digging up some guy's vacation album and turning the pictures into lovely  memes. Kind of a creeplord thing to do.
That Old Tree fucked around with this message at 14:24 on Jun 1, 2015 |
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Jun 1, 2015 14:20
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Yeah, the memes thing is bad, but a quick go through of d20 Entertainment's kickstarts shows they're not great at delivering or keeping people in the loop. They started two projects this year while having four from last year they're way behind on.
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Jun 1, 2015 14:31
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When it comes to poor customer service, Whitman is old-school. He entered the business about 20 years ago and immediately established a reputation for poor customer service and fighting with fans on the Internet. Whitman is not well-known among fans because he's a printer, and most of his interactions are directly with small-press publishers. He co-founded the company that published Traveller 4th edition, and hasn't done any design or writing since then. Over the years he's fought allegations of printing books that were late, poorly-printed, or never delivered at all, as well as reprinting and selling Traveller books to which he didn't actually have the rights. I remember an incident wherein a small printing company bought his used equipment, then had to publicly state that they were not in business with him. Eventually he went on fora and threatened anyone who said bad things about him with a libel suit. RPGnet probably did him a favour by banning him. I doubt anybody had to "dig up" his vacation pictures, because when he's called out, he loves bragging about how great he is. According to him he's rich, all his businesses make huge profits, he singlehandedly boosted GenCon's business in the 90s, he was an all-star football player, and he lives in a literal castle (that his wife inherited and runs as a hotel). He's a pretty amazing troll. On the balance, I think it's a good thing people are being warned that he has a history of shady practices, unfulfilled promises, and failed companies.
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Jun 1, 2015 14:54
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Halloween Jack posted:Eventually he went on fora and threatened anyone who said bad things about him with a libel suit. RPGnet probably did him a favour by banning him. Wait, I think I remember this guy. Didn't he threaten to sue RPGNet itself because people were allowed to say e: quick Googling shows that's the case. Apparently he ran a POD service that had a huge issue with delivering when promised, then threatened to sue people who said things like "he delivered our books late". Evil Mastermind fucked around with this message at 15:15 on Jun 1, 2015 |
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Jun 1, 2015 15:06
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Fair enough. Seems really odd, then, for Jolly Blackburn to be doing business with this dude. I guess that might have something to do with the delays on the last few Hackmaster books that I recall hearing about.
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Jun 1, 2015 15:16
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Yeah, this thread seems to be a microcosm of his attitude; Ken announces his POD service, people have questions/concerns and his responses have the standard bad industry person cycle of confrontationally defensive->angry->"lol u mad".
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Jun 1, 2015 15:30
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Halloween Jack posted:When it comes to poor customer service, Whitman is old-school. He entered the business about 20 years ago and immediately established a reputation for poor customer service and fighting with fans on the Internet. So long as it's done with information like this. Digging up photos and memeing at people at seemingly random is fruitless by comparison.
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Jun 1, 2015 15:35
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Chaosium just announced that the company has been taken over by Greg Stanford (the original founder), and Sandy Peterson (creator of CoC) is also back with the company. http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?757863-The-Great-Old-Ones-have-Returned-Chaosium They said their first order of business is sorting out the issues with the CoC 7th Edition and Horror on the Orient Express kickstarters, which seem to be two years behind and/or having a ton of issues. e: more detail here: http://www.yog-sothoth.com/topic/28764-chaosium-change-of-management/#entry300608 quote:Hey all, this is Sandy Petersen of course.
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Jun 3, 2015 16:48
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Good luck to Stafford. He's one of a very few genuinely professional, articulate and thorough writers and publishers in the industry, and his education and passion shine through in his work. It's entirely possible the mess is too big to easily handle, but he'll do his.
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Jun 3, 2015 17:04
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This link should work.
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Jun 4, 2015 08:06
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Halloween Jack posted:As far as What Gary Wanted is concerned, remember he went on to design Dangerous Journeys and Lejendary Adventure, which were not very good and rather behind the times. He later said that Castles & Crusades was basically what he wanted AD&D 3rd Edition to be, but he had a business relationship with Troll Lord and Gygax was always a huckster, to put it bluntly. In not total defense of GG, it's commonly understood that much of his post-TSR output was heavily shaped by the threat of lawsuits for copyright infringement by TSR for everything from names to game systems, whether those threats were legitimate or not. Lots of the weird-rear end elements of his game design resulted from this. Other folks could get away with stuff that TSR would sue him for at the drop of a hat.
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Jun 4, 2015 09:42
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MalcolmSheppard posted:In not total defense of GG, it's commonly understood that much of his post-TSR output was heavily shaped by the threat of lawsuits for copyright infringement by TSR for everything from names to game systems, whether those threats were legitimate or not. Lots of the weird-rear end elements of his game design resulted from this. Other folks could get away with stuff that TSR would sue him for at the drop of a hat. Did Gary every design anything other than RPGs after D&D? He had so much background in wargaming he might have had better luck designing them.
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Jun 4, 2015 09:47
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grassy gnoll posted:John Rogers is a pretty cool guy. Fel's Five, Blue Beetle, Leverage, I love all that poo poo. I don't care for his style but I should point out that screenwriting is a difficult mix of technical and creative writing. Even poo poo screenplays are hard to produce.
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Jun 4, 2015 09:47
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Bucnasti posted:Did Gary every design anything other than RPGs after D&D? He had so much background in wargaming he might have had better luck designing them. Just chess variants as far as I know.
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Jun 4, 2015 09:48
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I think Mike Mearls is a fine game designer, but he's not designing "his" D&D. Nobody working at that level designs a game entirely the way they want to. Really, much of his early work presages 4e. He submitted the basic concept of 4e hit points at his interview with WotC. I think he's not a bad creative writer either, but that doesn't really shine through. Still, some of his talent shines through in early work, where the creative side is a little less leashed to the technical. Blood Bayou for Scarred Lands is fun, for instance. Iron Heroes was highly innovative for its time as well. Mainly though, I think you guys should treat anything you read from him on social media as business communications. WotC has formal contractual obligations and employee policies that ensure that while Mearls is never lying to you, he's not giving you 100% of his opinions. Combined with the consensus he has to build to design anything, you should consider Mike Mearls, D&D designer, as not necessarily indicative of his real opinions or talents. I personally think there's something at WotC that keeps staff from really doing their best, but I really don't know what it is.
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Jun 4, 2015 10:00
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It's Mike Mearls.
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Jun 4, 2015 12:55
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MalcolmSheppard posted:I think Mike Mearls is a fine game designer, but he's not designing "his" D&D. Nobody working at that level designs a game entirely the way they want to. Really, much of his early work presages 4e. He submitted the basic concept of 4e hit points at his interview with WotC. I think he's not a bad creative writer either, but that doesn't really shine through. Still, some of his talent shines through in early work, where the creative side is a little less leashed to the technical. Blood Bayou for Scarred Lands is fun, for instance. Iron Heroes was highly innovative for its time as well. Nor do I assume that Mearls believes everything he says. (I don't think anyone here buys into that.) For example, when Mearls casually derides warlords healing as "shouting limbs back on," he's bullshitting. He understands the logic behind how martial healing works. I think he's a lovely developer because he thinks repeating memes like that constitutes good business communications. Maybe it is good for business. Maybe recruiting a fascist and a serial harasser as consultants is good for business, too. Maybe the hobby really is that lovely.
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Jun 4, 2015 15:26
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From the numbers I've heard it's okay for business but nowhere near as good as owning the rights to either the Star Wars RPG license or the 40k RPG license.
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Jun 4, 2015 15:59
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Halloween Jack posted:I don't assume that Mearls has complete and total creative freedom. I don't know if he reports to anyone on design decisions, but clearly when you're working on D&D, many possible changes are untenable. As for his design work, I think it's fair to say that reception of Essentials and Heroes of Shadow was mixed. Yeah, his work in Essentials really does show how the road was paved for 5e. Essentials has several bits and pieces built towards going "4e Core wasn't REAL D&D, but my version of it is!" I think it's totally possible he was at one point gungho for 4e, but I think by the time Essentials came out he heavily disliked it. Remember that when 4e was being made there was a lot of in-office arguing about stuff, including how powerful wizards should be. Essentials is what happened when Mearls took the reigns; how can you not compare it to what came before? As for warlords, as I always point out, warlords are the only 4e Core class never to get an e-version. I think that speaks well enough on it's own. And yeah, you can judge someone by the company they choose to keep. FWIW he's openly stated previously that he's a big fan of both people mentioned.
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Jun 4, 2015 22:24
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4e has actual, real flaws. For the most part Essentials ignored or outright exacerbated them in favor of making it superficially more like older versions of D&D.
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Jun 4, 2015 22:50
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I eagerly await the Cthulhu-Glorantha crossover.
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Jun 4, 2015 23:38
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Terrible Opinions posted:From the numbers I've heard it's okay for business but nowhere near as good as owning the rights to either the Star Wars RPG license or the 40k RPG license. So, the biggest name in RPGs is now Fantasy Flight?
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Jun 4, 2015 23:44
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Fsmhunk posted:I eagerly await the Cthulhu-Glorantha crossover.
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Jun 4, 2015 23:47
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DalaranJ posted:So, the biggest name in RPGs is now Fantasy Flight? At least the most consistent name in RPGs. They always have at least one game in the top five sellers for a quarter and usually have two.
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Jun 5, 2015 00:51
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