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NosmoKing
Nov 12, 2004

I have a rifle and a frying pan and I know how to use them

We get airgun threads from time to time. I tend to be the guy doing most of the answering. I figured I’d write up a basic overview of airguns that can hopefully be helpful.

People generally want to buy an airgun for low cost, low noise, low range precaution target practice or for pest control or both. In this post we’re going to be talking primarily about rifles and pistols that shoot pellets, not BB’s. If you buy a less expensive airgun that lets you use steel BB’s in addition to pellets, please don’t use the BB’s. BB’s are hell on rifling and will degrade your accuracy over the long run. I know that BB’s are 10X cheaper than even the cheapest pellet and you can buy the bigass milk carton of 5000 BB’s for the price of a tin of pellets and they’re easier to load and they let you use the onboard zillion shot magazine and, and, and… Don’t do it. You want to shoot BB’s, get a BB gun with a smoothbore barrel. BB gun info coming a little bit further along in this honkin’ thread.



So, you want to shoot pellets, but what KIND of pellets? Generally, you are looking for pellets that fall in to the middle of the weight range for the caliber you’re shooting, and are MOST ACCURATE IN YOUR PARTICULAR RIFLE. Airguns are often quite “pellet sensitive”. They will shoot one particular pellet (or a narrow range of weights and shapes) very well while spraying others in a much wider group. The only way to tell what will shoot well in your rifle is to test a bunch of pellets. There are a few go-to pellets for testing. Look for midweight for the caliber, match grade wadcutters or round nose pellets first. If these aren’t your best shooters, they likely will be in the top of the heap in terms of accuracy. There are some exceptions. Generally, quite heavy for the caliber pellets perform best in guns powered by stored compressed gas, not spring piston powered guns.

You’ll note that target shooters use two types of pellets: wadcutters and round nose. Pointed, hollow point, and “novelty” nose shapes are used exactly 0% in match play. They can be fun to play with and shoot things with, but I will guarantee that they won’t have the consistent fine accuracy that you’ll find with wadcutter or round nose pellets.

I wrote an article for Airguns Illustrated a few years ago where I tested hollow point pellets in Knox ballistic gelatin. They do work. Some work better than others. All need to be moving quite fast on impact to open up. All need to be moving REALLY fast on impact to open up explosively. Accuracy runs from fair to dismal depending on the pellet chosen. Over ripened tomatoes shot with a .177 Beeman Crow Magnum hollow point from a distance of 25 yards with my BSA Super10 precharged pneumatic rifle exploded like they had been shot with a high velocity .22 LR hollow point. They disintegrated. Small pest birds and mammals do likewise. English Sparrows and mice have exit wounds the size of a US quarter or are blown nearly in two. The .22 version of the Super10 that I owned was similarly explosive with various trans-sonic hollow point pellets.

A big selling point in airguns in most catalogues and advertising is the velocity of the pellet. Some are advertising velocities over 1600 FPS. A much better way to think of the “power” of an airgun is to think in terms of muzzle energy. You can think of the majority of airguns as a firearm with a fixed powder charge. Regardless of the pellet you stick in from of the propelling charge, it gets the same push. Heavy pellets start out slower, light pellets start out faster, but they get the same push at the start. In fact, the heavier pellets are often better suited to extract more energy from the propelling charge than are lighter pellets. As an example, my Crosman 160, a collectable CO2 powered rifle, will shoot midweight 14.3 gram Crosman Premier pellets at around 650 FPS for 13.5 FPE. It will shoot very heavy for the caliber pellets like Beeman Kodiaks or Korean made Dae Sung pellets (around 22 and 29 grains respectively) at about 17 FPE. Very lightweight pellets such as RWS Hobby or the like won’t break 12 FPE.

Very light pellet are like trying to throw a ping-pong ball. Sure, you may get it to start out really fast, but it loses velocity quickly and doesn’t retain energy over the flight of the projectile. Real honest to goodness chronograph testing data for dozens of different adult airguns, firing pretty much every pellet made can be found

http://www.straightshooters.com/nav...selections.html

There are four basic power plants that are used in airguns: pump pneumatic, CO2, spring piston, and precharged pneumatic. Let’s have a look at these methods of moving pellets.



Pump pneumatics come in two flavors, single pump (mostly target guns) and multi-pump. Multi-pump guns have variable power. This can be nice because less pumps=less noise with good accuracy and for plinking. If you decide to use the gun for pest control, you can pump it up to the max for full power. For plinking, you can put in just a few pumps. Personally, I generally think of my multi-pump guns as having three settings: High, Medium and Low. I primarily shoot them at the lowest power setting when shooting targets, cans, etc., or at the max number of pumps when shooting game and pests. Sure, you can sit there and map out trajectories for the gun at 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10 pumps if you REALLY want to, but I generally go with min and max. I use middle power for closer pest control, but it’s a sometimes thing.

A drawback is that these guns require significant time, noise, and effort to get in action. Fast second shots or stealthy loading in the field is difficult. A note about multi-pump guns, they have a max number of pumps listed for a particular rifle. Some folks seem to want to over pump a multi-pump rifle. The thought is that more is better. If 10 pumps are good, 15 must be GREAT!! No, it’s not. You’ll either damage the pump cup on the pump arm and/or the exit valve seat, or you’ll DECREASE your velocity because the striker can’t hold the valve open against the higher internal valve pressure or all of the above.

These rifles can be made modified and improved to significantly better than their design levels. The majority of the modifications that increase power are related to strengthening pump bits and refining the pump cup/intake face and valve interaction. The goal is to reduce the space between the pump cup and intake valve face. Excess space will yield an area that ends up limiting the amount of pressure that can be built in the valve. You will pressurize the valve to a maximum amount, then the amount of pressure inside the valve will exceed the pressure built up in between the pump cup and pump face. Soft pump cups are easy to make and fit to pressure tubes that are made with wobbly tolerances. Hard pump cups or metal and compression ring pump faces are far harder to construct. They are, however, the way to seriously increase the power levels of pump rifles.

The higher pressure valves now often require strengthened pump arms and reinforced pump pivots.

An example of a factory rifle taken from a decent rifle to a drat nice self contained potent hunting arm is the Mac1 Steroid Benjamin Sheridan rifles and Sheridan Streaks.

The pump is tuned, the arms are strengthened, and you end up with an airgun that tops out at 14~ish FPE in factory form to a rifle that can now top out 34 FPE. All this punch doesn’t come free. The rifle goes from a max number of pumps of 8 to a max number of 14. Those last 4 pumps start to top 60 pounds of effort. It turns a shooting session into a pretty solid workout. Shoot 50, 60 shots or so and you’ve just done 200 or 240 sixty pound chest flys along with a warm-up of 10 increasing resistance pumps per shot.

Multi-pump rifles exist in primarily two types, knock-open valves and pop-open valves. Knock-open valves are by FAR more common than pop-open valves. Knock open valves work by opening the valve with a striker. You cock the gun, pump the rifle, and when you fire it, a striker zips forward and whacks open the valve. You can demonstrate how this works yourself this summer. Take you garden hose and install one of those squeeze pistol grip handles on it. Now, get a small ball-peen hammer. Take the ball end and gently tap the little nubbin sticking out of the squirty front end of the handle. You’ll get a face-full of water. Small tap, small amount of water. Big tap, big amount of water. Keep this analogy in mind for later gas powered multi-shot airguns.

The biggest problem with guns like this is that they can experience what’s called “valve-lock”. If you pump up your gun past the factory max, you can pressurize the valve to the point where the striker can’t open the valve. It simply can’t hit it hard enough. The answer is the pop-open valve. In these valves, the trigger mechanism holds the valve SHUT. Pulling the trigger lets an opening in the valve swing past the trigger bits and releasing the air to the propulsion system. These rifles also have the advantages of not needing to be cocked. All you have to do is to pump them up and the repressurization of the valve resets the trigger. The downside is that the trigger pull gets heavier as the power level gets higher. More pumps, heavier trigger pull. There are a few varieties of pop-open valve rifles in the world, but the most common is the Crosman 140 and line extension 1400 series.

Single pump guns are generally target guns (or very low cost entry level guns). They are often quite accurate, but low powered. This is fine for target work, but not well suited for pest control or hunting. The Parker Hale Dragon isn’t exactly the typical single pump pneumatic. If you can find one of these practically hand made exotic 12+ FPE single stroke pneumatics, buy it. Non-working copies go for $700+ and shooters go for well over $1000. Precious few were imported and those that were are generally in the hands of serious collectors and won’t be on the market again until those folks die.

Single Stroke Pneumatic guns are pumped once. Pumping them more than once does nothing. Generally they work because the pump arm is attached to the front of the valve face. You pull the arm forward, it allows the pump tube to fill with air. You compress the air and send the valve face down to the valve as you pump. If you pump multiple times, you are simply working an accordion. As you swing the pump arm open, you drop the pressure back down to ambient, then when you swing it shut, it’s back to maximum.


The Olympic grade SSP is a thing of the past. They have been eclipsed by the precharged pneumatic rifle. This doesn’t mean that an Olympic grade SSP is useless, in fact far from it. They are wonderful rifles and I’m happy to have them in the collection of “classic” 10 meter rifles. They are astoundingly accurate (accuracy at 10M measured in the 0.01” range) and fun to shoot. They also require no accessories like tanks, charging hoses, etc.



Unless you are a serious hobbyist, CO2 generally means 12-gram powerlet bulbs. Bulk fill (filling liquid CO2 into an on-gun reservoir) or attached larger volume refillable tanks is generally reserved for more exotic or collectable guns. An exception is the Crosman AirSource 88 gram non-refillable cylinder. These are used on a few different Crosman and Benjamin/Sheridan products. Some other manufacturers have added the 88g bulb to their lineup as well. Hammerli branded rifles from Umarex and other Umarex CO2 guns and a few others also use the 88g mini-tanks

Most CO2 guns on the market are entry level low end plinkers. These tend to be low power guns, generally in .177 caliber and with muzzle energies in the 4 FPE range. Some exceptions for commonly available CO2 guns that are quite a bit punchier include the Crosman 2250/2260 and the QB77/78 Chinese copies of the Crosman 160/167. Many CO2 guns are quite temperature sensitive. The pressure available is dependent on temp of the liquid CO2. Rapid firing and the vaporization of CO2 in the storage tank cools the gun. Cold weather cools the gun. Lower pressure can mean lower velocity or at least really decreased gas efficiency. A well tuned and regulated gun like some match CO2 rifles and pistols maintain a constant velocity over a wide temperature range, say 50 degrees F to 90 degrees F. As the pressure drops, the valve releases more gas, but at a lower pressure. As the temp rises, the valve releases less of the high-pressure gas. The impulse stays the same so the velocity stays the same. This is the exception rather than the rule. Generally CO2 guns lose velocity as temps and pressure drop and reach a peak around 80-85 degrees. After that, the pressure in the valve gets high enough that the striker can’t open the valve very much or at all. Velocity drops. When the pressure is too high for the striker to open the valve, it’s called “valve lock”, same as in the multi-pump guns. Good thing about CO2 valve lock is that it’s easily cured by cooling off the gun. The nice thing about CO2 guns is that they require minimal cocking effort, as the power source isn’t dependent on your muscles.


Personally, I have a weak spot for CO2 guns, especially older pre-Coleman Crosman products.

Some of the newer CO2 guns from Crosman are pretty neat as well. Crosman produced the 2240 pistol, 2250 carbine, and 2260 rifle and noted that the response from the serious hobby community was to mod the hell out of these airguns.


They are simple to work on and are held together by common fasteners. They’re not the typical clamshell designed receiver of cheap airguns where everything inside is held in place with pins locked into both clamshell sides. Open the thing, good luck getting 4-10 pins with attached springs lined up on both sides to close it again. The mod community exploded with these airguns.

Crosman responded with the Crosman Custom Shop. You can now build your 22XX airgun using pretty much any of the interchangeable components that the mod people have been fiddling with for years. The serious and wacky mods aren’t included by Crosman (valve mods, calibers other than .177 and .22, bulk fill, etc.), but you can start with the components you want rather than hunting them down over the web for weeks.

One of my favorite modifications for the 22XX guns is the power adjuster. Replace the pressure tube end cap with a threaded end cap, install a screw that you can run in and out to change spring pre-load and simplify spring changes, and you’re set. Now you can use a light spring for plinking and a strong spring for hunting. Screw the spring in for higher strength impact and out for lighter hits.

A newer but very important modification and field of research is the Hammer Debounce Device or HDD. The striker hits the valve and opens it, releasing a dose of gas. The pressure inside the valve pushes the valve stem back violently and pushes the striker away from the end of the valve stem. The striker now zips forward again and hits the valve, releasing less CO2. This cycle repeats itself several times until all residual energy is gone. The HDD stops this. It allows the hammer-striker to move forward, but catches it on the way back to stop the other “bounces”. This can increase shot count two times and seriously increase uniformity of velocity. HDD’s are reasonably easy to make or are cheap at a few $$ per each from garage entrepreneurs.



Spring piston powered guns are often the first step towards “adult” airgunning for most shooters. They work by compressing a spring by either using the barrel or a special lever as the cocking arm and using the energy of the compressed spring to push a piston forward to rapidly compress air in a chamber to spit out the pellet. It’s usually the first rifle type they pick after they are unsatisfied with Daisy and Crosman XXX-mart models. The appeal to spring piston rifles is multifaceted. They can be quite powerful, they only require a single action to get ready (cock the barrel or lever once), they are temperature insensitive, they are the quietest for the power level, and there are no filling accessories, gas, or extras other than pellets to buy. The downside of spring piston powered guns is that they can’t be dry fired EVER, (no pellet, no resistance to the piston hitting the front of the compression chamber = broken gun at worst or damage to the piston cup at best). They generally need special scopes and mounts that will handle the forward snapping recoil that can break the insides of firearms scopes built to withstand rearward recoil. They require absolutely precise hold and follow through to get the best accuracy. Spring piston powered rifles are often the longest and heaviest of all types of airguns due to the need for the compression chamber, piston, and the like. The cocking effort of super magnum rifles can be difficult or impossible for smaller shooters or fatiguing on even larger shooters. Cocking effort for some commonly available rifles tops 60 pounds and on rare monster guns like the Crow Magnum series can top 80 pounds. Recently, there has been a huge push in gas spring guns. In the past when they were first introduced, gas spring rifles were very expensive. They were initially introduced by the folks at Theoben and Theoben still makes them to this day (and exquisite rifles they are). The thing about semi-handmade rifles is that you pay a poo poo-ton for them. Theoben rifles start at around $1200 and go up from there. Eventually, the Chinese mass produced copies of the Theoben gas ram hit the market and made their way into lower end rifles like those produced and/or marketed by Gamo and Crosman. The advantage to a gas ram is reduced noise and vibration, less “hold sensitivity”, and no worry about spring set.




Precharged pneumatics are the cream of the crop of the airgun propulsion system. You fill a reservoir on the gun with high-pressure air (3000 PSI or higher). They can be made very light, short, extremely powerful (to centerfire pistol cartridge energy levels), and silly accurate. One of my big bore guns has ballistics that duplicates a .45 ACP hardball load (230 grains at 850 fps) and groups half inch wide projectiles into cloverleaf groups.

They are also very expensive initially, are loud at power levels past 10M match guns unless silenced, and require SCUBA tanks to refill which ain’t cheap. There are entry level precharged guns on the market that start in the mid-$200 range. Also, there are hand pumps that can pressurize your rifle if you don’t want to play with tanks. Finally, there are home scale electric pumps that can pressurize your rifles as well. I wouldn’t use one of these home pumps to pressurize your extensive collection of full sized carbon fiber 5000 PSI SCUBA tanks, but they work just fine for someone with a large collection of precharged pneumatic rifles.

As I already said, spring piston rifles at first seem to be the panacea of all airgunning wants. They can be quite powerful, well made versions are very accurate, they take a single action to get ready rather than repeated pumping, there are no extras to buy, and they’re the quietest for the power level without silencing. They are however the most pellet sensitive, most hold sensitive, most scope destructive, and most frustrating type of airgun made. The wacky little details in shooting a springer can frustrate the hell out of a casual shooter. Also, extended shooting sessions can be physically tiring on the more powerful rifles or at least bump up your heart rate to where the crosshairs are jumping everywhere. The short version of how to shoot a springer is you shoot it without holding it. Yeah, I know it sounds like Zen koan poo poo, but the idea is to let the rifle free recoil as nearly completely as possible. You don’t “hold” the forend, you rest your rifle on your fingertips or preferably your knuckles (or best of all, your knuckles inside a shooting glove). You maintain minimal contact at the cheek, butt, and grip. Just enough to maintain control of the rifle, and that’s all. Perhaps now you can see why experienced springer shooters like featherweight triggers. Having to pull a 5 pound trigger on a 7 pound rifle without moving the rifle AND while barely holding the rifle is an exercise in futility. Having a trigger measuring in the ounces really helps. All that being said, springers are wonderful tools and in the hands of someone who’s willing to take the time to learn to shoot them (a tin of pellets or so) they can be outstanding field tools as well as target guns.

So, your old Uncle Nosmo (not to be confused with Uncle Touchy, well maybe a little) may have mentioned silencers. There was a looonnnggg time where those of us in the adult airgunning community would pretend that silencers on airguns didn’t exist in the USA with the exception of tax stamped firearms silencers that were installed on some airguns.

That’s because we weren’t all that interested in visits from the BATF and potential trips to federal Pound-Me-In-The-rear end prison. There’s a shitload of airguns, both past and present manufacture, that use silencers. Silencers are most effective on compressed air or compressed gas guns. They are far less effective on piston driven guns. Oddly enough, the gun that blew the lid off the US "silencers on airguns” market was the Gamo Whisper.

It was the first airgun marketed in the USA with a factory installed silencer. It’s a big baffled can at the muzzle of the rifle. Unfortunately, it’s also a big disappointment when it comes to silencing the rifle. It cuts down the perceived muzzle blast, but the majority of the noise in a springer comes from the spring and piston in the action. Nothing is going to dampen the *WHACK*TWANNNNGGGGgggggg! of the piston slamming home. The answer to this issue is using a silencer and a gas piston together. Reducing the noise of the action AND reducing the noise of the muzzle blast can reduce the nose overall. Even with that, there’s a hell of a lot going on in the action of a springer and you can only reduce the nose so much.

If you put a silencer on a CO2 rifle, a pump pneumatic, or a precharged pneumatic, you can get a nearly completely silent rifle. I’ve seen and heard 30 FPE precharged .22 caliber rifles that are silenced to the point that they go *tic* on firing. They are quieter when fired charged than when fired with no gas pressure because the pressure inside the valve body quiets the spring action. The sad thing is that while Gamo has taken it upon itself to install a Whisper style fully baffled silencer on nearly a dozen models of piston air rifles, it has installed exactly zero silencers on CO2 or precharged rifles. Gamo has reasonably recently introduced a “Reflex” style silencer called the ‘bull Whisper”.

Many of the silenced rifles from pre-whisper days relied on a Reflex style silencer and bull barrel appearance to essentially hide the fact that they were silenced rifles. The Reflex silencer has a tube surrounding the barrel proper and a baffle in front of the crown. The expanding gases flow backwards along the barrel between the sleeve and barrel itself giving a significant amount of space for expansion. There are often multiple baffles in front of the first baffle.


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NosmoKing
Nov 12, 2004

I have a rifle and a frying pan and I know how to use them

Now that you know the different types of airgun power plants available and some of the pluses and minuses of each type, let’s look at what you should get or not get. Multi pump guns are likely the best choice for potent energy levels at a rather cheap price. Though they take some time to get into action, they are my first suggestion for someone who is thinking about getting into adult airgunning.





The Sheridan Streak series and the various Benjamin products are among the best available and will generate 13 or so FPE at the top pumping level. Removing the rear open sight and replacing it with a receiver mounted Willams peep (around $35) is the best modification you can make to this rifle. It’s light, accurate, potent, short, and self-contained. Crosman made the 2200 until recently. It was a 10 pump .22 caliber rifle that was reasonably well made for the low asking price, quite accurate, and at max pumps would nudge up to 12 FPE at the muzzle. Daisy’s 880 and 22X/22SG rifles are based around the same design and power plant. They are lower powered still, (8 FPE for the .177 model 880 and about 10 FPE for the .22 cal 22X/22SG) but are very easy to pump and are quite quiet for the power level.

For entry level single pump pneumatic target rifles, the Daisy 953 my rifle of choice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJGOG6IUxsg


So, what do you buy? The field is vast and the amount of money to be spent goes from around $100 to about what you’d pay for a good used car. Right now, the Crosman Quest rifle kit with fixed 4X scope is an excellent bet. Crosman produces several different spring piston rifles, but they are all IDENTICAL in terms of the barreled action. The stock and the degree of surface finish are different, but the insides and the accuracy and power are going to be exactly the same. You can pay +$300 for the shiny Remington springer they make, but it’s really just a dressed up Quest. If you want to spend that sort of money, I can show you lots better stuff. The Nitro Piston line from Crosman is good stuff. They once again outfit the exterior of the gun with lots and lots of stuff, but the powerplant stays the same.

The Chinese copies of various German and British rifles are pretty drat good. The initial quality was spotty, but it seems that they are getting everything chugging along nicely and these rifles are being received quite well by the airgunning community. Following are the Chinese airguns that are worth the money.

-B18/19 which is a copy of the Gamo 440 (and the basis of the Crosman Quest powerplant).
-The B26 R9 copy. The B20 had some quality problems at the start, but they were mostly resolved in the redesign.
-B40 TX200 copy. Good reviews. I own one and it’s nice. Quite comparable to the TX200.
-B21 RWS 48 copy, specifically in .22 caliber.
-B50 the first precharged out of China. A copy of a Daystate design IIRC.
QB22/77/78 series of CO2 rifles. Copies of the Crosman 160/167 series.
-BS-4, copy of the FWB 300 10M match rifle.

Some of these rifles are now on the used only market, but they are still good bets. I would shy away from any the Chinese designed rifles like the crap you see at Harbor Freight sales. They are at best tomato stakes and at worst, a good way to lose a finger.

Beeman’s R series is a go to group of airguns. From low power to high power, the R7, R9, R11, HW77, HW97, R1, RX-1, and RX2 are all excellent choices. They aren’t cheap, but they are among the best for the money.

The British made BSA and Air Arms entire lineup is also on the list of stuff you should think about. They are not cheap, but are not cheaply made either. One of my favorite new toys that’s still getting lots of attention is a .22 caliber BSA Lightning XL.

Gamo has really flooded the lower end of the springer market. They stack the rifles with buzzword laden accessories. Gamo stuff isn’t junk, it’s just lower middle end products with moderate build quality. That being said, I own two Whisper’s (one in .177, one in .22) a Bone Collector Bull Whisper equipped gas ram powered rifle in .22, and have several Gamo knock-offs. Oddly enough, guns like the Crosman Quest is a US licensed version of a Chinese knock-off of a Gamo designed rifle. It’s one of the best at its price point.

CO2 rifles are fun and can be very accurate and potent. Current manufacture for stuff that’s both accurate and potent enough to use for hunting or pest control includes the following rifles.

-Crosman 2250 carbine.
-Crosman AS2250XT carbine
-Crosman 2260
-Benjamin 392 AirSource (recently discontinued, but still on some shelves)
-Chinese QB77 (Crosman 160 clone)
-Chinese QB78 (Crosman 167 clone)

The Crosman stuff is very, very good and can be made amazingly good with a few modifications, mostly involving smoothing out rough parts left by the factory. The Chinese rifles are metric clones of the finest sporting CO2 rifles ever made.

For plinking rifles, it’s hard to beat the Crosman 1077 It’s basically a double action revolver built into a rifle. Twelve shots as fast as you can squeeze. The NightStalker is a fun gun as well. It’s a little carbine that uses the same rotary magazine, but is a kinda-semi-auto rifle. It’s basically a self cocking rifle. You still rotate the cylinder while pulling the trigger, but you don’t fight against the striker spring to cock it as well. The NightStalker runs off of 88 gram bottles.

Finally, no chat about air rifles would be complete without a look at vintage 10M match rifles. They are the refined beauties of the airgun world. They are specifically designed to toss a wadcutter pellet onto a dot as small as the period at the end of this sentence from 33 feet away. You touch the trigger with a nudge that’s appropriate for petting a ladybug and they go off. They shoot right where you broke the sear. Any error is yours. They are not inexpensive, still in the several hundred dollars for the cheapest shooters, but they are excellent additions to any collection. Sorry when the trigger ruins you for other triggers out there.




We already had a little chat about air rifles, so I thought we’d have another bit of school about air pistols.

Just as in air rifles, you can get an air pistol in any of 4 different power plant types: CO2, pump (single and multi), spring piston, and precharged pneumatic. The air pistol field is dominated by CO2 repeaters as plinkers and trainers, Single pump pneumatic as entry-level target guns, and Precharged Pneumatics as high-end target guns. All the other niches are small, but some are very important and useful.

Like in my talk about rifles, we’re going to be primarily discussing getting the best “bang for your buck” in entry level (or a bit more) and trainer airguns. If you want to discuss the merits of Olympic grade 10M match pistols, there’s plenty of web forums for that.

The far and away leader in the world of air pistols is the CO2 repeater that resembles a firearm. Many are dimensionally identical can use the same holster as the firearm equivalent. This makes playing James Bond in the backyard or basement easy. Almost all of these pistols are revolvers. The ones that look externally like a semi-auto firearm simply have the revolver hidden by the slide cover.

Lots of companies make these, but they are all essentially the same in terms of performance. You’ll get mid to low 400 FPS with midweight .177 caliber pellets and you should end up with 1” to 2” groups at 10M and around 45-60 shots per 12-gram powerlet.

Since they are all the same in terms of ballistics more or less, what should you look for? Crosman has several guns in this category, but the far and away best pick is the Crosman 357.


Initially designed to mimic the looks of the Colt Python, the Crosman 357 is a good looking pistol. It has a ten shot cylinder, interchangeable barrels, decent sights, and a pretty drat good single action trigger pull. The double action pull is horrible, but single action is light and crisp. You can get one for around $40 at a big box store. Umarex is a big player in the “internal revolvers that look like semi-autos” category. They make the largest selection of dimensionally similar replica guns as well. The Umarex guns tend to be 8 shot revolvers (though there are some exceptions). The higher end guns use lots of metal and have nice smooth actions. Since they don’t smash the cylinder against the barrel and gas port under spring pressure (like Crosman does to get a good gas seal), the double action pull is pretty decent. Some of these guns can be hand cocked (SA/DA), while some are DAO. Blowback guns where some of the gas is used to cycle the action or to at least make the slide jump back and forth are out there as well. Half are gimmick, half have some functional quality to the slide reciprocation.

Single pump pneumatic pistols that are great starter guns are the Daisy 717 and 747 and the Beeman/Marksman 2004. The Daisy is a wonderful starter gun that dominates several different silhouette games as well as entry-level 10M matches. The Beeman P-17 /Marksman 2004 gun is a Chinese made licensed copy of the German built HW-40/Beeman P3. I’ve shot several examples of both the German and Chinese guns and the Chinese guns are essentially identical to the German guns at ¼ the price. If you don’t like sponsoring slave labor with little Chinese kids, go and spend +$200 for the HW made gun. If you are happy with buying Chinese goods, buy the Chinese made gun for less than $50. The only difference I’ve seen is that the pump action is slightly smoother. Other than that, they are just as good as the German guns. I have owned 6 of them and still own 4 (gave 2 away to beginning airgunners).




The IZH 46 and 46M are nice entry level single pump pneumatic 10M match pistols as well as excellent silhouette pistols.




More powerful guns, usable for hunting or pest control include the Crosman 1322/1377 and the Crosman 2240. The 1322 and 2240 are .22 caliber. Both can be counted on to top 6 FPE or around 450 FPS at the muzzle with midweight pellets. The 1377 is around 6 FPE as well in .177, but can’t be built up as powerful as the .22 version. These guns are excellent platforms for customization, tuning, upgrading, and turning into money pits. They’re the 10/22’s of the airgun world. Everything (well, nearly everything) is bolt on/bolt off, so no special tools or jigs or equipment is needed to upgrade them. There’s a thriving airgun modding community on the internet.










These guns (13XX and 22XX) respond well to tuning the trigger. This can be as simple as polishing the engagement surfaces. It can be as complex as replacing all the internals with completely redesigned aftermarket parts that require careful fitting. Personally I think that cleaning up the mating surfaces and installing a trigger overtravel screw is enough.

Spring piston pistols have been around for some time and are making a comeback to some degree with their availability at big box stores at attractive price points (under or around $100).

Personally, I find them difficult to shoot well, but still fun to shoot. I’m fond of the
Webley “barrel over compression chamber” style pistol.



Not as big a fan of the break barrel style that’s becoming available through inexpensive Russian and Chinese imports, but they have their fans as well.

Don’t have any precharged pistols personally, but I’ve shot them. They tend to fall into two categories: 10M target pistols and hand cannons. There’s a few chopped down rifle action small game pistols too, but a large part of the market is either a .177 pellet farter or a big bore KABOOM machine.

NosmoKing fucked around with this message at Apr 21, 2013 around 11:35

NosmoKing
Nov 12, 2004

I have a rifle and a frying pan and I know how to use them

BB Guns!!

BB guns are often the first introduction to any sort of “gun” for people who are introduced to shooting early in life. Personally, my dad took me out shooting his Red Ryder style BB rifle when I was 5 years old. I was hooked. While there are air guns that shoot both BB’s and Pellets through rifled barrels, I’ll be concentrating on guns designed from the ground up to shoot steel BB shot through smoothbore barrels.
All BB guns can be expected to shoot between ¾” CTC for exceptional examples to 3-4” CTC on the crappy end. Most shoot in the 1 ½” CTC range or minute of beer can at 10 paces. Don’t ask much more from them (with one very special exception to be mentioned later). Spring piston guns like the Red Ryder and the like shoot in the low to mid 300 FPS range while CO2 rifles shoot in the low 500 fps range. All the various CO2 pistols on the market shoot in the low 400 fps range with few exceptions.
The most iconic BB rifle is by far and away the Daisy Red Ryder. Daisy knows that there’s a regular Christmas rush on these rifles as well as a solid collector’s market, so they have some odd collectable feature nearly every year, even if it’s only the box.






After the Red Ryder, the distant second most popular Daisy is the trombone action Daisy 25. Recently re-introduced and still fun as heck. The 25 has a positive feed spring magazine that makes shaking the rifle to hope a BB falls in the right spot a thing of the past. They used to be significantly more powerful than the Red Ryders (closing in on 500 FPS compared to 300 FPS) but the difference has been removed in the newest versions.


Other than the “classic” BB gun, there’s a pile of “looks like real gun” BB guns out there. Some are iconic western guns like the Winchester 1894, but many are modern looking rifles. I like all of them obviously.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sLnZPuB9Ek
The world of BB rifles is moderate to small, but the world of BB pistols is HUGE.
The thing about BB pistols is the working bits inside that make the gun spit copper coated spheres out the front is tiny. This lets people build shells around the innards in the shapes of any pistol you wish. The field is dominated by replica pistols, several of which now have blowback action that reciprocates the slide and in some instances recocks the striker/hammer. A newer trend is to feed the pistols via stick magazine while the older style is to have an on-board in-line magazine, usually horizontally against the barrel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOtzQ4zm5Nc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKZ1txOZfe8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbNMHvwNyBs


Two of those 1911’s shoot BB’s.
World’s Most Accurate BB Gun, the Daisy Avanti Champion Model 499.



Shoots special precision ground shot, has a decent trigger, and comes equipped with a decent set of starter match sights. Will group 5 special BB’s in a dot the size of a pencil eraser at 5 meters (official BB match range). I can regularly shoot acorns off my patio with this gun out to 20 yards with amazing regularity. It’s just plain fun.
Steel Storm

Comes with a giggle switch.

6 round burst fire for pennies a shot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PU20fQpHN_4
BB guns are a whole different rabbit hole of airgun excitement. They’re like crack, cheap to start, but expensive and consuming in the end.

NosmoKing fucked around with this message at Apr 21, 2013 around 13:15

NosmoKing
Nov 12, 2004

I have a rifle and a frying pan and I know how to use them

Like most organized shooting sports, airgun sports can be dividied up into two categories, shooting holes in paper and making things fall over.

The paper holes games are dominated by 10 meter matches. Ten meter air rifle is shot from the offhand position with specialized rifles that shoot low weight to midweight pellets (6-8.5 grain) at 600-650 FPS. The entire goal is to hit a teeeeeeny dot as the 10 ring is literally a dot. Trigger weight is measured in grams. The rifles these days are built to have every single thing adjustable on the stock. They will shoot pellet after pellet literally through the same round hole at 10M all day long. Shooters wear tons of specialized clothing (shoes, pants, jackets, hats, visors, glasses, etc.)

Pistol 10M is one handed offhand shooting with a slightly bigger target, but still incredibly challenging. Let’s put it this way, even at the Olympic level, no one has ever shot a perfect course of fire.

You may note that the pistol guys have way less crap strapped to them.
There’s short range versions of benchrest and BR50 and some other rifle and pistol sports, but 10 meter dominates.

On to stuff that clanks when shot!!

The first formal style match we’ll talk about are the various metallic silhouette matches. Regardless of the specifics of the particular match, these games rely on miniature chickens, pigs, turkeys, and rams at increasing distances. Depending on if it’s a pistol or a rifle and if it’s IHMSA rules or NRA rules the distances vary, but the rules are pretty much the same. Shoot one shot per animal. If it falls over, it’s a hit. If it doesn’t fall over, it’s a miss. Spinning the target on its base doesn’t count. It has to tip over. Guy with the most knocked over targets wins. NRA is like bullseye shooting: offhand only. IHMSA allows for Creedmore (lying on your back) and other wacky positions like the taco hold (holding a high mag rifle scoped pistol next to your face, it’s odd looking).

Another game that is pretty fun (but like most shooting sports, quickly becomes an equipment race) is Field Target. I like field target. You shoot targets that look like typical airgun targets or quarry and you have a defined “kill zone”. The kill zone is a circle in the target. You have to shoot THROUGH the hole and hit the paddle to make the target fall. Split the pellet on the face and paddle, it doesn’t fall. Targets are places from 10 to 50 (sometimes 55) yards away at unknown unmarked distances to the shooters. Shooters generally use very high mag scopes to allow for rangefinding.



My other love is minisniping.
http://www.minisniping.org/
Shooting 9mm empty cases out of modeling clay bases at 35 yards from a benchrest. It’s a gently caress of a lot harder than it sounds.

As for hunting with airguns, it’s your typical small game for the most part. Don’t forget that with airguns, even powerful airguns like some of the really punchy .22 and .25 precharged, you’re doing extremely well to get close to .22 LR standard velocity energy levels. That’s using pellets that weigh similar weights to .22 LR bullets (29-40 grains). Airguns should be thought of as very precise, very close range hunting propositions.

Yes, there ARE big bore airguns out there. Yes, you can hunt bigger game with them (some folks have taken African plains game, bison, elk, and the like). All these hunts are with REALLY powerful for an airgun rifles. Generally they are designed to shoot long heavy bullets for deep penetration (like 700+ grain .50 cal bullets) in single shot all-dump (all air released at once) PCP guns. It may not be a “stunt”, but it’s goddamn close to it. My Quackenbush .50 cal Bandit essentially duplicates the ballistics of a .45 ACP. How far away would YOU think you could hunt a deer with a .45 ACP? It’s pretty much bowhunting range. Don’t be fooled by the fact that it’s an airgun. It’s roughly as loud as a .45 ACP carbine. It is LOUD. You don’t generate that level of energy without a gently caress of a muzzle bark.

People often want to pest control big pest species (woodchuck, raccoon) with an airgun. Sure you can. You had better be very precise with shot placement (ideally a side presentation headshot) or be prepared to deal with a wounded animal or a very slow to die lingering animal.
I prefer to limit my airgun pest control to smaller animals (squirrel, rabbit, etc.). Not that a heavy for the caliber hard transonic pellet can’t do the job, but it can often be done with a powder burner better.


The most prevalent game for airguns is the North American Beer Can. Jumps when you shoot it, easy to get, and simply fun.

I also like animal crackers, Necco wafers, and have my own dollar store stack of plastic army men that I regularly dismantle with pellets. Staple the soldier base to plywood and you can shoot them multiple times before they aren't a target anymore.

Smear some jelly on a sheet of paper and shoot bugs off of it all day long. Bonus points if you stick the remaining bug to the paper.

NosmoKing fucked around with this message at Apr 21, 2013 around 21:02

The Rat
Aug 29, 2004

11B gobble bronies every day


quote:

If you put a silencer on a CO2 rifle, a pump pneumatic, or a precharged pneumatic, you can get a nearly completely silent rifle. I’ve seen and heard 30 FPE precharged .22 caliber rifles that are silenced to the point that they go *tic* on firing. They are quieter when fired charged than when fired with no gas pressure because the pressure inside the valve body quiets the spring action.

This is very, very interesting to me. At a quick glance on Pyramydair.com it seems like there are no retail options like this though unfortunately. Custom job kind of thing?

Also, a lot of airgun questions have been popping up in the great deals thread lately. There's a couple that I think would be relevant OP-type material.

1. Is it OK to dry fire an airgun? Does this vary from spring pistons to multipumps and such?

2. What kind of basic maintenance do we need to do to keep our airguns running well?

Great writeup! I really enjoy reading about this kind of stuff.

NosmoKing
Nov 12, 2004

I have a rifle and a frying pan and I know how to use them

The Rat posted:

This is very, very interesting to me. At a quick glance on Pyramydair.com it seems like there are no retail options like this though unfortunately. Custom job kind of thing?

Also, a lot of airgun questions have been popping up in the great deals thread lately. There's a couple that I think would be relevant OP-type material.

1. Is it OK to dry fire an airgun? Does this vary from spring pistons to multipumps and such?

2. What kind of basic maintenance do we need to do to keep our airguns running well?

Great writeup! I really enjoy reading about this kind of stuff.

The weasel word you are looking for is "shrouded" barrel. This means at least there is some sort of void space for quieting the muzzle blast. They tend to be on higher end air rifles like BSA, Theoben, FX, Air Arms.

You can dry fire precharged/gas guns, but it's best to do so under pressure rather than depressurized, especially on higher end guns. You can goof up the valve seals by repeatedly whacking them with the striker with no resistance from the gas to close them (just the return spring).

Most airguns require precious little maintenance. They don't lead the barrel, they don't go dry, they just need a teeny bit of lube where the manufacturer suggests at the manufacturer's intervals and they are cool. over-lubing the guns is for the most case worse for them than under-lubing.

Like all guns, keep them clean and dry.

bunnielab
May 19, 2005

I guess my point is that even science is a matter of faith


At loving last.

Coincidentally my Gamo rifle (one of those gas piston suppressed ones) from Woot arrived today. It is too windly to try and zero it but I did shoot it some and learned the following:

1)The fancy pellets it comes with go fast enough to make a sonic crack but are otherwise decently quiet.

2)Lead wadcutters are very quiet.

3)Lead wadcutters will shoot right through my crappy shed, which is three layers of 1/4 luan with about 4' of air between each wall.

Herr Tog
Jun 18, 2011



loving awesome.

The Rat
Aug 29, 2004

11B gobble bronies every day


NosmoKing posted:

The weasel word you are looking for is "shrouded" barrel. This means at least there is some sort of void space for quieting the muzzle blast. They tend to be on higher end air rifles like BSA, Theoben, FX, Air Arms.


I'm googling around and haven't found a whole lot on shrouded barrel multi-pump rifles, but hooooly poo poo the price tag on those FX rifles

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010

It was a sherbet that I'd screw this up!

A couple of my friends were at the house from one to four today with their airguns, mine, my wife's, and even my son's Red Ryder on a garden table shooting tin cans and 22 spinners at about 10 meters while we grilled sausages and drank iced tea mixed half and half with lemonade. Airguns are more fun than firearms, there, I said it.

I can sperg about the QB 78 and why you all need to buy one tomorrow or Monday.

Baconroll
Feb 6, 2009


This is my BSA Hornet. Its a .177 pre-charged air-rifle which has been blue-printed by John Bowkett - the guy who designed the BSA pcps and a bunch of others. The moderator is a Bowkett designed/made model made of steel with a deep blue.



On a calm day it will shoot through the same hole at 25 meters assuming I do my part.

I charge it using a 7 litre tank,



John told me that BSA barrels prefer heavier pellets and I also saw this my testing - I find JSB Exacts shoot very well.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010

It was a sherbet that I'd screw this up!

Baconroll posted:

This is my BSA Hornet...On a calm day it will shoot through the same hole at 25 meters assuming I do my part.

I am so for this rifle it hurts.

Bummey
May 26, 2004

You are a filth wizard. Friend only to the grumpig and the rattata.


Airgun thread!

I ordered one of these because someone posted about it and I don't want to pay for realgun ammo. Is there anything I need to know about this gas ram system, airgun maintenance or whatever? e: Order cancelled! Sheridan pump bought instead.





The goon darling Romanian Pioneer has served me well through the panic, but I want something a little better.

Bummey fucked around with this message at Apr 21, 2013 around 22:12

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010

It was a sherbet that I'd screw this up!


Please do a review when it comes in! Slap a TLR on that little rail and it looks like a perfect 'coon in the duckpen rifle.

Bummey
May 26, 2004

You are a filth wizard. Friend only to the grumpig and the rattata.


Butch Cassidy posted:

Please do a review when it comes in! Slap a TLR on that little rail and it looks like a perfect 'coon in the duckpen rifle.

As I said in IRC, it is significantly more powerful than this piddly little pioneer rifle. I'm not entirely sure what I'm getting into, but I've got a yard to shoot it in and I can always return it or sell or whatever. I don't really know what I'm doing so I'm not sure if I'll be able to give any real insight for a proper review. B4Ctom1 and The Rat ordered one, too.

also

B4Ctom1 posted:

poo poo poo poo poo poo I just ordered the .22" version and now I get this!


Bummey fucked around with this message at Apr 20, 2013 around 20:54

The Rat
Aug 29, 2004

11B gobble bronies every day


Come mid-June we shall all see.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010

It was a sherbet that I'd screw this up!

Bummey posted:

As I said in IRC, it is significantly more powerful than this piddly little pioneer rifle. I'm not entirely sure what I'm getting into, but I can always return it or sell or whatever. I don't really know what I'm doing so I'm not sure if I'll be able to give any real insight for a proper review. B4Ctom1 and The Rat ordered one, too.

Gas piston rifles are almost loud enough to take quiet out of the airgun experience and most of the ones I have messed with like an artillery hold. They are not my favorite plinkers, but my Nitro Venom will drop a crow or squirrel for the stew pot or take care of the pesky chipmunk in the shed just fine. And it is fun to punch a few pellets through and through a tin can. If you already have the Romanian for a low-power plinker, you will like it.

Edit: About the only gas ram specific advice I can think of from the top of my head is that they can be left cocked all day with no issues and work well in the winter where spring pistons can sludge up. And don't oil the piston.

Butch Cassidy fucked around with this message at Apr 20, 2013 around 20:58

madeintaipei
Jul 13, 2012



drat, NosmoKing, you work fast!

NosmoKing posted:

How springers like to be held

So that's what I've been doing wrong!

I see that many of your break-barrels have scopes. How well do they hold zero? Do you have any recommendations on scope mounts and scopes? I've been thinking about buying this RWS scope mount for my Diana Model 34, along with this RWS scope.

Bummey
May 26, 2004

You are a filth wizard. Friend only to the grumpig and the rattata.


Here are my two favorite targets



NosmoKing
Nov 12, 2004

I have a rifle and a frying pan and I know how to use them

Butch Cassidy posted:

Gas piston rifles are almost loud enough to take quiet out of the airgun experience and most of the ones I have messed with like an artillery hold. They are not my favorite plinkers, but my Nitro Venom will drop a crow or squirrel for the stew pot or take care of the pesky chipmunk in the shed just fine. And it is fun to punch a few pellets through and through a tin can. If you already have the Romanian for a low-power plinker, you will like it.

Edit: About the only gas ram specific advice I can think of from the top of my head is that they can be left cocked all day with no issues and work well in the winter where spring pistons can sludge up. And don't oil the piston.

The biggest advantage to your gas ram piston designs is there's no Buzz and twang. The action sound is a solid snap.

Edit: still working on finishing up and inserting pictures in my placeholder posts.

NosmoKing fucked around with this message at Apr 20, 2013 around 21:45

Sporto
Oct 16, 2010

The Slayer walks the earth!


Very cool thread! Been thinking more and more about grabbing an air gun since my beloved 9mm ammo and components are scarce these days. I had some as a kid (your standard Crossman Wal-Mart pumps and that single shot 1911 looking gun that every kid had that shot the darts plus bb's and pellets), but haven't gotten into it recently.

I hate buying the 12 gram co2's anymore. Anyone have a decent quality spring-powered pellet pistol for some bullseye action? And is it an enormous pain to cock?

madeintaipei
Jul 13, 2012



Sporto posted:

I hate buying the 12 gram co2's anymore. Anyone have a decent quality spring-powered pellet pistol for some bullseye action? And is it an enormous pain to cock?

Seconding this. I have been looking one of these:

IZH-53m, about $70-80. I've heard some things about them shooting too high, but I think that can be fixed at home. It also looks a bit more substantial than my little Crossman 1377, which has never really fit my hand well.

e: vvv Okay! (I HOPE I DON'T TURN INTO AIRGUN INSANE TOTORO!)

madeintaipei fucked around with this message at Apr 21, 2013 around 00:58

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010

It was a sherbet that I'd screw this up!

madeintaipei posted:

Seconding this. I have been looking one of these:


Do it, OWLS! has one and it is fun on a bun. Springer pistols tend to be hard to shoot, but these are not very hold sensitive and have nice triggers.

NosmoKing
Nov 12, 2004

I have a rifle and a frying pan and I know how to use them

Butch Cassidy posted:

Do it, OWLS! has one and it is fun on a bun. Springer pistols tend to be hard to shoot, but these are not very hold sensitive and have nice triggers.

I find all springer pistols rather hard to shoot well. I prefer the Webley "barrel over compression chamber" style springer myself.

They shoot well, but for a more accurate and easier to shoot pistol, I'd lean more single stroke pneumatic like a Daisy 717 or beeman p17.

Still, sprinters are fun and jump in your hand when fired, giving you a bit of recoil simulation.

Beardless
Aug 12, 2011

I am Centurion Titus Polonius. And the only trouble I've had is that nobody seem to realize that I'm their superior officer.

What's the general opinion on Crosman 1377s? I got one a few months ago, put a nifty shoulder stock on it, and now i'm looking at wodden furniture and a steel breech.

Bummey
May 26, 2004

You are a filth wizard. Friend only to the grumpig and the rattata.


Pellet traps! A microwave box filled with wadded up newspaper does the job of trapping pellets from my romanian pioner, but will I need something a little beefier for this new gun?

e: I remember a while ago you, NosmoKing, mentioned some grey putty that you used.

Bummey fucked around with this message at Apr 21, 2013 around 04:46

Poniard
Apr 3, 2011



Anyone have experience with a Benjamin Discovery? I'm thinking of getting one because of the price.

NosmoKing
Nov 12, 2004

I have a rifle and a frying pan and I know how to use them

PISTOL AND RIFLE SUGGESTIONS PLACEHOLDER REPLACED WITH ACTUAL POST!!

NosmoKing
Nov 12, 2004

I have a rifle and a frying pan and I know how to use them

Bummey posted:

Pellet traps! A microwave box filled with wadded up newspaper does the job of trapping pellets from my romanian pioner, but will I need something a little beefier for this new gun?

e: I remember a while ago you, NosmoKing, mentioned some grey putty that you used.





I use duct seal putty in nice wooden traps.

I also like flapper traps for lower powered fun.

The bottom has a sheet metal angled plate, a spinner, and a sand trap at the bottom now.

As for the Crosman Discovery, they are fun and a nice air rifle at a very good price point, but they are LOUD. Be advised that they are not backyard quiet. They are "I live on a farm" quiet.

NosmoKing
Nov 12, 2004

I have a rifle and a frying pan and I know how to use them

BB GUN PLACEHOLDER UPDATED WITH ACTUAL POST!

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010

It was a sherbet that I'd screw this up!

Beardless posted:

What's the general opinion on Crosman 1377s? I got one a few months ago, put a nifty shoulder stock on it, and now i'm looking at wodden furniture and a steel breech.

I think it would be neat if someone made a stock like that to replace the grip panels on the 717/747.

californiasushi
Jun 6, 2004


Bummey posted:

Pellet traps! A microwave box filled with wadded up newspaper does the job of trapping pellets from my romanian pioner, but will I need something a little beefier for this new gun?

e: I remember a while ago you, NosmoKing, mentioned some grey putty that you used.

i think i'm using the same pellet trap as nosmoking, these ones:

http://www.archerairguns.com/airgun-pellet-trap-s/6.htm

they work great and are really quiet. you just have to scrape pellets off of it occasionally and add seal once in a while. when you shop for duct seal make sure you get the stuff in bricks at the home improvement store, not the stuff in tubs. i learned that the hard way!

The Rat
Aug 29, 2004

11B gobble bronies every day


Something I found out the hard way today. When looking at multi-pump guns, I saw in the description for many that you should leave one pump on it when leaving it a while. Pulled the old Crosman 2100 out of the closet to try it out, and it wouldn't work at all. Whenever I pumped, I could just hear air escaping out of the barrel. When I tried to fire, nothing occurred. Guess that's what happens when you let one of those sit for years on end like that.

The French Army!
Jul 1, 2007


OK tell me about these Romanian Pionier rifles you can get for like $35 bucks. I'm interested.

Jymmybob
Jun 26, 2000
PONY FUCK

So, just after this thread was posted, a .22 Hammerli 850 with scope and silencer went up on armslist by my house. What would be a good price for one if they're worth buying? I already have an RWS .177 Model 24 that I've had for like 20 years and that Hammerli K31 thing so I'm a terrible fanboy for the RWS/Hammerli stuff.

Sperglord Actual
Nov 27, 2011



NosmoKing posted:

Daisy knows that there’s a regular Christmas rush on these rifles as well as a solid collector’s market, so they have some odd collectable feature nearly every year, even if it’s only the box.

So which edition has the compass in the stock and does 25 damage/hit?

The French Army! posted:

OK tell me about these Romanian Pionier rifles you can get for like $35 bucks. I'm interested.

They're like airgun Mosins. Good for backyard plinking.

Butch Cassidy
Jul 28, 2010

It was a sherbet that I'd screw this up!

The French Army! posted:

OK tell me about these Romanian Pionier rifles you can get for like $35 bucks. I'm interested.

Minute of can accuracy at 10-15 meters, decent trigger, front sight will probably be canted and can be straightened when you strip it to clean it up, the safety is surprisingly functional, it is very much sized for kids but is nice as a slim and trim little plinker. Buy one or five.

Edit for link: http://whatacountry.com/romanian-pi...77-caliber.aspx

Butch Cassidy fucked around with this message at Apr 21, 2013 around 18:36

NosmoKing
Nov 12, 2004

I have a rifle and a frying pan and I know how to use them

Jymmybob posted:

So, just after this thread was posted, a .22 Hammerli 850 with scope and silencer went up on armslist by my house. What would be a good price for one if they're worth buying? I already have an RWS .177 Model 24 that I've had for like 20 years and that Hammerli K31 thing so I'm a terrible fanboy for the RWS/Hammerli stuff.

AIRGUN SPORTS/HUNTING PLACEHOLDER REPLACED WITH REAL POST!!


The biggest thing I have against the 850's is the price of the 88 gram thingies. They can be had in a rechargeable design, but they are all hand-made garage plumbed things and that ain't my favorite way to store 1000 PSI of cryogenic fluids next to my face.

No factory refillable 88 gram bottles loaded bottles are something like $6 each if you get a bargain.

When someone makes a semi-auto .22 (or .25) rifle that shoots in the mid 600 FPS range with midweight pellets that's silenced from the factory, I'll be all over it.

A buddy had a Crosman 400 that was silenced and set to run on bulk fill. Pretty much tits, but not semi-auto. Another friend had a Crosman 600 semi-auto shrouded and bulked and it was nearly ideal. Too bad he had something like $1000 into the project.

iyaayas01
Feb 19, 2010

Perry'd


NosmoKing posted:

Too bad he had something like $1000 into the project.

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NosmoKing
Nov 12, 2004

I have a rifle and a frying pan and I know how to use them

Crosman 600 ~$250
Match grade barrel blank $200
Machining on barrel blank, install of "permanently mounted" silencer $350
Blank of walnut the guy turned into a stock himself $150
Tuning of trigger and action of Airgun $200ish

Add in his own time and effort and postage and a grand is a conservative estimate.

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