|
Mozi posted:There are a lot of rear end in a top hat CEOs, I'm sure, even if they're better at hiding it. What matters here is Gearbox's track record. Nothing that they've done well in the past is what's needed to make a good Homeworld game. It's not impossible that this will turn out well but I'd rather buy Bitcoins at $250 than preorder this. This. I just can't imagine a company more ill suited to make a Homeworld sequel. I will remain optimistic because it is Homeworld and I'd love another entry in that series, but I just don't feel confident that Gearbox can do that sort of game.
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2013 21:03
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 24, 2024 20:32 |
|
|
Still loving the people defending Gearbox completely ignoring that they essentially stole money from Sega for their pet project when they list the oh so inconsequential stuff they've done. Best case scenario is they release the old games on Steam/GOG and then just sit on the IP, worst case scenario is they use it to leech more money out of a publisher for Borderlands 3, and release a really bad game when they are forced to show something (6 years from now). Personally hoping for the former, latter won't tarnish the first Homeworld game but will still be pretty lovely.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2013 21:17
|
|
|
Xae posted:If Paradox got the rights people would bitch that now instead of an epic sweeping game we're going to be playing Logistics: Space Supply Clerk Edition. I'd play the poo poo out of Crusader Kings 2: Homeworld 3 Edition. Befriend the space pope, and keep cloning myself just as my character gets Alzheimer's and slowly go insane destroying my empire in a fantastic display of ineptitude and insanity.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2013 21:17
|
|
|
Nelson Mandingo posted:One thing I think is overlooked is the ship design in Homeworld is fantastic. Probably my favorite spaceship designs out of a myriad of science fiction. I liked that the ships had an overall sleek and simple design but then had all these little details on them that made em look complicated and fragile, especially the Taiidan ships. They remind me alot of real spacecraft and spacestations, especially the interiors. It's almost scary with all those panels, circuits, and buttons everywhere. The Kushan resource-collectors looked like big space-oiltankers 
Amebx fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Apr 23, 2013 |
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2013 21:31
|
|
|
miscellaneous14 posted:I'm really getting the impression that most of the people making GBS threads on Borderlands 2 haven't actually played it and are basing their opinion of it on maybe a trailer or gameplay video they watched once. Because complaints like "dubstep soundtrack" or "people just play it for the Diablo loot treadmill" show a huge amount of disconnect from what is actually in the game and appeals to players. I've played Borderlands 2, and I still think it has the most boring Diablo-like gameplay I've ever played. It's a four-player MMO in terms of mechanics. Everything above level 30 is just an endless grind.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2013 21:34
|
|
|
Nelson Mandingo posted:One thing I think is overlooked is the ship design in Homeworld is fantastic. Probably my favorite spaceship designs out of a myriad of science fiction. The mothership was really cool but I didn't like the Taidanii designs much, they were too insect like. The Bentuusi tradeship was loving amazing though. And the Garden of Kadesh had some of the best visual designs of its time.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2013 21:34
|
|
|
I liked the direction they took for HW2. Everything was sleeker, with Higaaran ships being the fanciest, Vagyr looking very modular and Progenitors being even blockier but in a somehow ancient, elegant way.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2013 21:46
|
|
|
Pirate Jet posted:I've played Borderlands 2, and I still think it has the most boring Diablo-like gameplay I've ever played. It's a four-player MMO in terms of mechanics. Everything above level 30 is just an endless grind. I would say that borderlands gunplay actually falls apart a you hit 3 or more players because it has incredibly inelegant difficulty scaling. In single player, and broadly in 2 player, stuff dies as you shoot it. 4 player? Everything is a tank and its horrible.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2013 21:48
|
|
|
ShineDog posted:I would say that borderlands gunplay actually falls apart a you hit 3 or more players because it has incredibly inelegant difficulty scaling. In single player, and broadly in 2 player, stuff dies as you shoot it. 4 player? Everything is a tank and its horrible. This is also the case for True Vault Hunter Mode (the second playthrough) and the recently-added Ultimate Vault Hunter Mode (third playthrough). The game has very poor endgame balance to where half the character builds just fall apart. I can understand criticizing the game for that reason, it's just nonsensical complaints like the ones I mentioned that strike me as coming from people who haven't played the game.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2013 21:53
|
|
|
Haruharuharuko posted:I'm guessing its a straight up DMC Devil May Cry scenario. That whatever game no matter how great or what have you Gearbox puts out people will still say this isn't the game we wanted because the wrong company bought it (or wheres our Dante because we can't accept change and have no concept of an evolution of a series). The thing I think most people have to understand hell the same thing goes with Devil May Cry is that sometimes games like that just don't get made anymore. This is such wishy washy crap. In all the scenarios you outlined above fans had/have legitimate complaints which may not have been put forth in the best way sometimes, but are still valid. And it seems like you're in the minority of thinking DMC was the "natural evolution of the series" because as far as I know its sales were poo poo. O__O fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Apr 23, 2013 |
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2013 22:06
|
|
|
Famethrowa posted:I don't understand. Gearbox makes two bad games, and their spokesman is a bit of an rear end in a top hat, and suddenly they are literally Hitler here to rape your childhood? It isn't just about making 'two bad games' (DNF was never going to be good no matter how you sliced it), it is about them basically committing fraud with Aliens: Colonial Marines by misappropriating funds and resources to use on Borderlands 2. They lied to their publisher about it. That resulted to them outsourcing a majority of the game so that they wouldn't breach their contract. This was because Sega wouldn't delay the project further because they found out what they were doing. Why would I ever trust a product from these people again? Let alone one that isn't Borderlands and requires a lot of skill in an area which they have no experience in and probably aren't going to branch out into? gradenko_2000 posted:DOW 2 had goddamned boss battles. Saying it wasn't a traditional RTS is a bit of a stretch when it felt more like it was trying its hardest to be an action-RPG. The real strength of DoW II was its multiplayer. I played the poo poo out of it and it was fun as all hell. Balanced? No (I mean come on, this is Relic we are talking about here). Fun? Yup. Dapper Dan fucked around with this message at 22:17 on Apr 23, 2013 |
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2013 22:12
|
|
|
Haruharuharuko posted:I'm guessing its a straight up DMC Devil May Cry scenario. That whatever game no matter how great or what have you Gearbox puts out people will still say this isn't the game we wanted because the wrong company bought it (or wheres our Dante because we can't accept change and have no concept of an evolution of a series). The thing I think most people have to understand hell the same thing goes with Devil May Cry is that sometimes games like that just don't get made anymore. I have to disagree here, DmC had legitimate problems in both the way their marketing team handled it and what it did with the gameplay the series was known for. They were overly-hostile to the fanbase, chastising anyone who called them out on what was blatantly a retooling for what an upper-management team likely saw as "cool and hip". And the gameplay was essentially a God of War knockoff that let you do kinda neat long combos, but never had any reason for doing so because a few spammable abilities were stupidly-overpowered and several enemies are outright immune to most of your weapons. The idea that the series "needed" that reboot is silly, considering DMC4 sold 2.6 million copies overall. And it backfired anyway because the sales for DmC have been pitifully low.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2013 22:19
|
|
|
Ashley Burch is going to be Karen S'Jet / Fleet Command. I can't wait for the wacky voiced orders she'll give.Demiurge4 posted:The mothership was really cool but I didn't like the Taidanii designs much, they were too insect like. The Bentuusi tradeship was loving amazing though. And the Garden of Kadesh had some of the best visual designs of its time. The Gardens of Kadesh are probably my favourite two levels in any game. The music was amazing the ship design and the way the waves launched were amazing and the narrative was amazing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w13Z3Y-Px9o&t=192s
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2013 22:27
|
|
|
Dapper Dan posted:It isn't just about making 'two bad games' (DNF was never going to be good no matter how you sliced it), it is about them basically committing fraud with Aliens: Colonial Marines by misappropriating funds and resources to use on Borderlands 2. They lied to their publisher about it. That resulted to them outsourcing a majority of the game so that they wouldn't breach their contract. This was because Sega wouldn't delay the project further because they found out what they were doing. That's really the issue here: before the A:CM thing happened Gearbox was a developer everyone had mixed views. Borderlands was fun, but I wouldn't call it great, and I don't blame them for DNF because it's hard to tell where 3D Realms' blame ends and where Gearbox's begins and I'm sure many people would agree. Though I question why Gearbox took on that project instead of canning it and making another Duke Nukem 4 (Take 2 has the rights to Duke Nukem after 3D Realms had to raise the cash to pay off debts). Which brings me to the other complaint that Gearbox is a bit of an Internet meme regurgitator (though they aren't the only offenders in the gaming industry) and probably tweaked DNF just so they could go "it's been released, everyone!". I got a little off-track, but basically Gearbox went from getting complaints over their game design philosophy to committing incredibly scummy acts that could be proven as illegal in court which is why everyone has no love for Gearbox at the moment. Nobody knows what the hell to expect from Homeworld 3 aside from all previous Homeworld titles likely getting digital releases because of how broken Gearbox is right now. A:CM is one of those games that somebody should write-up a article about citing all kinds of insider sources (like what GameSpot did after Daikatana in 2000) because of how scandalous everything around it sounded.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2013 22:32
|
|
|
gradenko_2000 posted:DOW 2 had goddamned boss battles. Saying it wasn't a traditional RTS is a bit of a stretch when it felt more like it was trying its hardest to be an action-RPG. quote:Homeworld was great because from a mechanical POV because it had a third dimension and actively encouraged you to use it. At a time when most RTSes were cheap Command and Conquer or Starcraft clones, it was a hell of a thing for a game to defy those conventions and let you attack an enemy from above and below. Everything else you and other people said about atmosphere, art design, story, sound, etc is spot on. Neurolimal posted:Still loving the people defending Gearbox completely ignoring that they essentially stole money from Sega for their pet project when they list the oh so inconsequential stuff they've done. A giant loving asterisk: These are unverified rumors posted anonymously. Even if it really was a gearbox dev who posted them, is a line developer actually going to know the contracts and accounting involved? I doubt Pitchford was walking around the offices boasting about stealing from Sega. It's also a monumentally stupid plan. Personally, I think a just as likely scenario is that Sega knew about everything from the start. If they had this license but not enough money for Gearbox's undivided attention, I could see them working out a deal to have Gearbox supervise and support a second (cheaper) studio. And naturally they'd keep the Gearbox name at the front because who the gently caress has heard of Timegate? We'll know if / when the lawsuits happen.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2013 23:15
|
|
|
I think the best part of is this is that Brad Wardell and Randy Pitchford had a shitheads in arms moment over Twitter. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2013 23:15
|
|
|
ReV VAdAUL posted:The Gardens of Kadesh are probably my favourite two levels in any game. The music was amazing the ship design and the way the waves launched were amazing and the narrative was amazing. That got my eyes all damp with nostalgia.  Is there no Black-Mesa style fan remake? Wasn't the HW1 source open sourced?
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2013 23:19
|
|
|
Orv posted:I think the best part of is this is that Brad Wardell and Randy Pitchford had a shitheads in arms moment over Twitter. Ah, yes. The timely King of the Hill references for no reason. We should just change the thread title to Homeworld IP sold to Gearbox: Dang it, Bobby!
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2013 23:23
|
|
|
Der Luftwaffle posted:I liked the direction they took for HW2. Everything was sleeker, with Higaaran ships being the fanciest, Vagyr looking very modular and Progenitors being even blockier but in a somehow ancient, elegant way. The Vaygr design is probably my favourite in all of the HW games. They really looked like they wanted to get into fights and even continued the Taiidan tradition of painting stripes on their ships to make them look like swarms of angry hornets. It's a shame they didn't get their own campaign. Then again the Homeworld story has always been about the Hiigarans.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2013 23:29
|
|
|
Klyith posted:Everything else you and other people said about atmosphere, art design, story, sound, etc is spot on.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2013 23:33
|
|
|
miscellaneous14 posted:I'm really getting the impression that most of the people making GBS threads on Borderlands 2 haven't actually played it and are basing their opinion of it on maybe a trailer or gameplay video they watched once. Because complaints like "dubstep soundtrack" or "people just play it for the Diablo loot treadmill" show a huge amount of disconnect from what is actually in the game and appeals to players. I did play it, I'm not gonna take a dump all over it but my reasons for disliking it boiled down to them making the same mistakes they did the first time around (for example, the "edit your local files and affect clients/server" thing in public MP, forcing people to only play with trusted folks to keep pure files) and not really improving much in my eyes to be a sequel. Almost exactly the same reasons I'll squawk about Left 4 Dead 1 and 2. The jump between Diablo 1 and 2 was huge. I felt they could've looked at what changed there and done something along those lines. Instead it felt like I got a huge Borderlands expansion, which I'm not saying is bad, just about half of what I expected them to do for a sequel. Anyway about Homeworld, I've been meaning to play them. I remember watching my brother play them when they came out and being awed by the sense of scale and the depth the music and art gave the game. I don't know if I'd be interested in an RTS thing, but I really did like Freelancer and could play a Freelancer style Homeworld, as someone mentioned earlier. I'll definately grab 1 and 2 when they go up on steam and see if I can stand them. EDIT: Ah jeez now I'm imagining Borderlands with socketing and gambling and stones of jordan. EDIT #2: Forgot about the slot machines, I mean Diablo 2 style gambling. Irish Taxi Driver fucked around with this message at 23:52 on Apr 23, 2013 |
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2013 23:38
|
|
|
Verloc posted:Atmosphere and story is always what made the magic happen for me with that game. They had a bunch of low-poly ship models and a couple of disembodied voices to work with, and they still managed to tell an engaging and evocative story with that. Really just the sheer amount of thought and effort that went into the universe and backstory. I remember popping my Homeworld box open for the first time and finding what basically amounted to a short novel's worth of background and info-dump in the manual. That was a huge amount of effort to put in, even back in the days when big hefty manuals were still A Thing. The manual was huge, like 57 pages or something like that i think? The backstory was really great. I liked how neither sides were good guys. Both the Kushans/Hiigarans and the Taiidan did some really bad poo poo to eachother that would make the east front look like two kids in a playground throwing sand on eachother (Like one side glassing the others entire planet in spite for taking some territory by manipulating democracy or some poo poo like that). Homeworld is a game filled with a bunch of space assholes.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2013 23:52
|
|
|
Xae posted:The worst case scenario is that Homeworld 3 sucks. So don't play it. Stop acting like Randy Pitchford touched your "No-Zone". The worst case scenario would be gearbox hiring Derek Smart to head up this here spaceship project.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2013 23:54
|
|
|
ReV VAdAUL posted:Ashley Burch is going to be Karen S'Jet / Fleet Command. I can't wait for the wacky voiced orders she'll give. Everything about Homeworld was brilliant. I love the com-chatter. It might be the most perfect game I've played.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2013 23:56
|
|
|
Trump posted:Everything about Homeworld was brilliant. I love the com-chatter. Yeah there was nothing wrong with it. I think the only thing I didn't like about Homeworld was that there wasn't more of it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2013 23:58
|
|
|
Famethrowa posted:I don't understand. Gearbox makes two bad games, and their spokesman is a bit of an rear end in a top hat, and suddenly they are literally Hitler here to rape your childhood? People take video games super seriously here. Which is not to downplay the fans' concerns, I don't think Gearbox is a spectacular developer. Given there history with IPs they did not create, I don't think Homeworld 3 or whatever has a very good chance of being good. But hey, improbable things happen sometimes. Zaodai posted:Ah, yes. The timely King of the Hill references for no reason. We should just change the thread title to Homeworld IP sold to Gearbox: Dang it, Bobby! Lord Lambeth fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Apr 24, 2013 |
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2013 00:09
|
|
|
Verloc posted:Atmosphere and story is always what made the magic happen for me with that game. They had a bunch of low-poly ship models and a couple of disembodied voices to work with, and they still managed to tell an engaging and evocative story with that. Really just the sheer amount of thought and effort that went into the universe and backstory. I remember popping my Homeworld box open for the first time and finding what basically amounted to a short novel's worth of background and info-dump in the manual. That was a huge amount of effort to put in, even back in the days when big hefty manuals were still A Thing. That manual was a faithful bathroom companion for me for years- and Cataclysm actually expanded on the backstory in some of the descriptions for multiplayer maps, which was pretty awesome. I really want some more stories in the setting, whether on Kharak, after finding Higaara, any time period, really.
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2013 00:09
|
|
|
Wallrod posted:Apparently 'Step 1' is re-releasing homeworld 1 and 2 on 'modern digital platforms', whatever that means. 'Randy' Randy Pitchford's twitter says modern digital PC platforms. So... PCs. Too bad my PC is analog 
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2013 00:16
|
|
|
Edit: Ignore.
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2013 00:33
|
|
|
ReV VAdAUL posted:Ashley Burch is going to be Karen S'Jet / Fleet Command. I can't wait for the wacky voiced orders she'll give. There is not enough bile in the world for the fact that the writer created a character specifically for his little sister to voice and she was also the worst character in the game. What's the over/under that the same people who defend Tiny Tina make lazy jokes about Jaden Smith or Miley Cyrus only being famous because of nepotism?
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2013 00:43
|
|
|
So this has probably been answered in the 20 threads currently discussing Homeworld, but what has happened to Catalcysm? Rights still tied up because of Barking Dog Studios to Rockstar North? Can't find the source code?
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2013 00:43
|
|
|
Klyith posted:Paradox? Are we forgetting that SOTS II was a worse game at release than even A:CM? Aliens was poo poo, but at least the game worked. Not exactly their fault, but Paradox the publisher has plenty of black marks. Paradox the dev studio, I can't imagine how they'd be able to make a new Homeworld. They're pretty tiny and they make 2d historical over-complex turn-based strategy games. Gearbox hasn't made a RTS, but at least they work with 3d engines. Paradox published SOTS II, but it was actually developed by Kerberos. While Relic is still a great studio, they're not the same studio they were when they developed Homeworld and they don't have the resources to buy back and develop it. The reality is a true Homeworld 3 is never going to be made. The original Homeworld was basically the result of a handful of really talented artists coming together and producing their magnum opus, it can't be replicated. Out of the top 3 bidders for the IP (Gearbox, Stardock, Paradox), seeing Paradox's take on it would have been the most interesting result. Triggsz posted:The manual was huge, like 57 pages or something like that i think? The backstory was really great. I liked how neither sides were good guys. Both the Kushans/Hiigarans and the Taiidan did some really bad poo poo to eachother that would make the east front look like two kids in a playground throwing sand on eachother (Like one side glassing the others entire planet in spite for taking some territory by manipulating democracy or some poo poo like that). Homeworld is a game filled with a bunch of space assholes. 115 numbered pages, I have it on my desk.  The Manual really was incredible, it sucked me into the game before I ever even got it installed. Pages and pages of history and background info, illustrations, technical details on ships, emails between admirals arguing about strategies and tactics, all printed on big heavyweight paper. I poured over that thing for hours as a kid, it was basically an entire novella setting up the game. Its a shame the later editions switched to the mini-boxes and didn't include it. http://www.scribd.com/doc/97870330/Homeworld-Manual-PC 
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2013 00:45
|
|
|
Kibayasu posted:So this has probably been answered in the 20 threads currently discussing Homeworld, but what has happened to Catalcysm? Rights still tied up because of Barking Dog Studios to Rockstar North? Can't find the source code? We haven't had an answer here, I don't think, but the initial stuff from Gearbox didn't say a drat thing about Cataclysm, which is a crying shame.
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2013 00:56
|
|
|
OtherworldlyInvader posted:Paradox published SOTS II, but it was actually developed by Kerberos. While Relic is still a great studio, they're not the same studio they were when they developed Homeworld and they don't have the resources to buy back and develop it. The reality is a true Homeworld 3 is never going to be made. The original Homeworld was basically the result of a handful of really talented artists coming together and producing their magnum opus, it can't be replicated. Out of the top 3 bidders for the IP (Gearbox, Stardock, Paradox), seeing Paradox's take on it would have been the most interesting result. I read that manual probably a hundred times back in 2000. If you managed to get through it before you played the first mission, you felt the deep sadness of "Kharak is burning..." There were entire tribes and clans, enormous histories and then you realized that the last fifty years was spent exhausting the planet of resources to make the Mothership/Scaffold and those that were left behind were probably hosed anyway but to see them burn just sucker punched you. The ship descriptions, technologies and techno-babel was glorious and well thought-out. The manual also had both the Kushan and Taiidan designs, making it ambiguous as to what race really was canon (of course, everyone knows the Banana Mothership was the real one). They don't make manuals like that anymore. Edit: ^^^^ I believe Cataclysm's code is legit lost. I'm on some other forums and other posters were posting that very thing not too long ago. No one has it, no one has access to it and no one cares to try to acquire it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2013 00:56
|
|
|
FooF posted:I read that manual probably a hundred times back in 2000. If you managed to get through it before you played the first mission, you felt the deep sadness of "Kharak is burning..." There were entire tribes and clans, enormous histories and then you realized that the last fifty years was spent exhausting the planet of resources to make the Mothership/Scaffold and those that were left behind were probably hosed anyway but to see them burn just sucker punched you. "Kharak is burning" still gives me goosebumps to this day.
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2013 00:58
|
|
|
FooF posted:Edit: ^^^^ I believe Cataclysm's code is legit lost. I'm on some other forums and other posters were posting that very thing not too long ago. No one has it, no one has access to it and no one cares to try to acquire it. A goddamn crime. I'm probably in a slim minority here by Cata is my favorite game of the three. The modular mothership was great, the new subcap and cap ships were awesome, if a bit overpowered, and I love me some space horror, the cornier the better. Orv fucked around with this message at 01:06 on Apr 24, 2013 |
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2013 01:01
|
|
|
Kibayasu posted:So this has probably been answered in the 20 threads currently discussing Homeworld, but what has happened to Catalcysm? Rights still tied up because of Barking Dog Studios to Rockstar North? Can't find the source code? FooF posted:Edit: ^^^^ I believe Cataclysm's code is legit lost. I'm on some other forums and other posters were posting that very thing not too long ago. No one has it, no one has access to it and no one cares to try to acquire it. That's tragic I never liked the unit cap that they introduced in Cataclysm, but the plot/story arc was top-notch. You had to stop a zombie apocalypse ... IN SPACE. It was also very cool how your ship evolved from this dumpy little mining freighter into an increasingly militarized weapon. After an entire campaign of "This is the deep-space mining vessel Kuun-lan", when they finally called out "This is the Kiith-Somtaaw WARSHIP Kuun-lan" I literally got up from my chair and cheered.
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2013 01:07
|
|
|
FooF posted:Edit: ^^^^ I believe Cataclysm's code is legit lost. I'm on some other forums and other posters were posting that very thing not too long ago. No one has it, no one has access to it and no one cares to try to acquire it. Well that's just a legitimate loving shame if true. I also suppose its a not a matter of getting a retail disc and going from there. Cataclysm is as much a masterpiece as Homeworld. What it didn't have in scope and tragedy it more than made up for in atmopshere and character (See Fleet Command shaming the Bentusi. I put that scene right up there with Return to Kharak).
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2013 01:07
|
|
|
Also the Siege Cannon is the best large-scale weapon in any RTS for my money. 99%, open the map... beep... beep... beep... BEEP... and then just nothing.
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2013 01:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 24, 2024 20:32 |
|
|
Rhymenoserous posted:The worst case scenario would be gearbox hiring Derek Smart to head up this here spaceship project. I don't know what you're talking about, this would be hysterical.
|
|
#
?
Apr 24, 2013 01:16
|
|