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Martytoof posted:I don't know what sort of terrible bugs that would introduce if the agent system had to pump water or electricity that much further. The electricity pumps just might not be up to it Well, even if the pumps are strong enough, the electricity could still get confused and then lost on the way. Or stuck between two piles of poop and some water.
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May 2, 2013 21:40
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:Well, even if the pumps are strong enough, the electricity could still get confused and then lost on the way. Or stuck between two piles of poop and some water. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRppqaanECA&t=14s An actual Maxis planning meeting caught on tape
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May 2, 2013 21:45
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:Oh, so this is SimCity: Ron Paul Revolution Edition. It's SimCity: Half-Assed Edition.
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May 2, 2013 21:45
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:Well, even if the pumps are strong enough, the electricity could still get confused and then lost on the way. Or stuck between two piles of poop and some water. I've not once had this problem for more than an hour or two of in-game time. Always run at a large excess and always purchase from neighbors even if you don't need to. As soon as you get the notice that you're buying from your neighbor, it's time to upgrade.
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May 2, 2013 21:46
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Broken Loose posted:These aren't glitches, they're design flaws. I guess what I meant is that the gameplay design is good. There's no doubt the technical design and implementation is an abortion. And that's what so disappointing about the game. The gameplay design is the hard part of making a good game, because it's not absolute and you don't know if you did it right until people actually play it. The technical side should be easy (for a relatively simple game like this anyway) because you know if it works or not. But somehow they hosed up the easy part.
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May 2, 2013 21:48
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Wasn't SimCity 4's traffic shitted up the wazoo until that NAT mod came out? And 3k had the doesn't matter where you plonk down school buildings, it's magic? How did 3 and 4 handle Residences and Jobs anyway?
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May 2, 2013 21:55
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Croccers posted:Wasn't SimCity 4's traffic shitted up the wazoo until that NAT mod came out? And 3k had the doesn't matter where you plonk down school buildings, it's magic? SC4's traffic was pretty broken pre-NAM, but the game was totally playable without it. Your commute times were just really, really long.
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May 2, 2013 21:57
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Magnitogorsk. posted:I guess what I meant is that the gameplay design is good. There's no doubt the technical design and implementation is an abortion. And that's what so disappointing about the game. The gameplay design is the hard part of making a good game, because it's not absolute and you don't know if you did it right until people actually play it. The technical side should be easy (for a relatively simple game like this anyway) because you know if it works or not. But somehow they hosed up the easy part. I have to respectfully disagree. The "gameplay design" is established in the franchise. The technical implementation is everything -- how you choose to simplify and model complicated systems is the thing in simulation games. Sure, there are new features that were neat, but they're all predicated on the assumption that the agent system is providing a more accurate, deeper simulation. I wouldn't have a problem with a deeper simulation if it were actually more accurate, but I'd much rather have a more surface-level simulation that actually works. I think that's where a lot of "nostalgia" for the earlier games comes in; a LOT of rough edges were knocked off and glossed over in the style of simulation they chose to use (heavily abstracted, aggregate data), but the end result was a BIG experience that you felt like you could actually control from the top level. In making the scale smaller, the tradeoff was supposed to be a more granular experience, but the low-level simulation doesn't work as well as the abstracted models, making it a pure sacrifice instead of a tradeoff. And that's a design failure.
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May 2, 2013 22:13
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Croccers posted:Wasn't SimCity 4's traffic shitted up the wazoo until that NAT mod came out? And 3k had the doesn't matter where you plonk down school buildings, it's magic? SimCity 4's traffic was 'broken' in the sense that Sims would take the shortest route and not the fastest route, you know, the exact same thing SimCity 2013 sims do 9 years later. I would also say its pretty bad loving design that Sims in SimCity 2013 make a beeline to the closest empty 'thing' that they're looking for.
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May 2, 2013 22:27
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I can't get over how this game cannot even begin to compare to Tropico 4. Tropico 4: Modern Times even had subways to alleviate traffic, and the "agents" in the game actually knew where the gently caress they were going. Really, I could almost deal with everything else that's wrong with Simcity 2013 if the traffic modeling at least worked. There seems to be no chance of that getting fixed though.
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May 2, 2013 22:51
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I actually think that city specialization is a bad design choice for a city sim game, but they made a resource management game so nevermind.
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May 2, 2013 22:53
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Sardonik posted:I can't get over how this game cannot even begin to compare to Tropico 4. Tropico 4: Modern Times even had subways to alleviate traffic, and the "agents" in the game actually knew where the gently caress they were going. I loved tropico 4! I guess I'll get the Modern Times expansion instead if I start to crave playing a city building sim again. It's too bad that EA absolutely refuses to allow any kind of mod support.
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May 2, 2013 23:13
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Sydney Bottocks posted:Exactly, there have been absolute tons of enjoyment gleaned out of the previous thread, and I never spent one dime on it. Wow, I'd never heard of this. If this is true, then it's not just unconscionable, it's evil. Who the hell trolls their own customers like that? Andy Kaufmann as a killer gamemaster wouldn't be this cruel, would he?
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May 2, 2013 23:40
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http://www.twitch.tv/kuberous This guy is a pretty cool streamer. His gimmick is going into abandoned cities and fixing them up. It's kind of like This Old House, but Sim City. Looks like he's just about to get started.
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May 2, 2013 23:46
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Air Julio posted:http://www.twitch.tv/kuberous This is such a cool gimmick. Making the best out of a crappy game 
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May 3, 2013 00:01
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Magnitogorsk. posted:There's no doubt the resource-related specializations need some balancing, but they were one of the most fun parts of the game for me (when it actually worked). If they hadn't hosed everything up so badly I think that's a concept that could have been expanded a lot in expansions/DLC Resources in Sim City are a "press button, get money" contrivance. There's nothing at all interesting about Sim Cities implementation due to its incredible lack of depth. Also implementation is a design problem otherwise any fuckwit who could come up with good ideas would be Warren Spector.
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May 3, 2013 00:30
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Air Julio posted:http://www.twitch.tv/kuberous
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May 3, 2013 00:37
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KoRMaK posted:What was he just talking about with a criminal moving around? I walked in right at the end. If you bulldoze a building, the criminal inside will just move next door.
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May 3, 2013 00:39
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So if there are multiple criminals in a complex that you bulldoze, will they conga-line to a new available space to occupy like some chain gang?
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May 3, 2013 00:48
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The game has a Nissan LEAF® charging station now?
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May 3, 2013 00:49
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Cojawfee posted:The game has a Nissan LEAF® charging station now? Yeah, when I realized that I completely lost any and all interest in playing the game anymore forever. Air Julio posted:http://www.twitch.tv/kuberous Kuberous on how to solve sims complaining about the state of the city. "We need to make these [protesters] weak, maybe a little dizzy, you can't think straight when you're dizzy. Maybe even dead. I don't know if you've ever tried to negotiate with a dead person but... you'll generally find it pretty easy to get what you want." Nitrousoxide fucked around with this message at 01:01 on May 3, 2013 |
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May 3, 2013 00:56
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Cojawfee posted:The game has a Nissan LEAF® charging station now? Why yes. 
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May 3, 2013 01:00
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Smirr posted:Why yes. Please tell me that's a photoshop.
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May 3, 2013 01:03
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DeclaredYuppie posted:Please tell me that's a photoshop. I saw it in that guy's stream. I was making pizza and he was talking about charging stations. I thought he was just talking about something dumb, then he talked about where to put them. Then I ran back to my TV and saw the stupid charging station in the game.
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May 3, 2013 01:13
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DeclaredYuppie posted:Please tell me that's a photoshop. 
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May 3, 2013 01:13
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DeclaredYuppie posted:Please tell me that's a photoshop. It's not. 
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May 3, 2013 01:28
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Magnitogorsk. posted:I guess what I meant is that the gameplay design is good. There's no doubt the technical design and implementation is an abortion. And that's what so disappointing about the game. The gameplay design is the hard part of making a good game, because it's not absolute and you don't know if you did it right until people actually play it. The technical side should be easy (for a relatively simple game like this anyway) because you know if it works or not. But somehow they hosed up the easy part. The gameplay design is predicated on agents doing everything. Many of the significant problems with the game are due to agents not behaving and interacting in a way that is logical or fun. A few glitches with the agent system could be explained by technical design and implementation. However, multiple, game-breaking flaws with the agent system aren't just the result of bad implementation; they are a product of the original gameplay design. Perhaps a more competent team with more time and resources could have made this work-- but perhaps not. Designing a fully agent-based simulation that makes sense and is fun to play is apparently much more difficult than designing the non-agent-based sims that have preceded this one. The choice to design the game around glassbox and agents, whether informed by ignorance or hubris, is the real problem here.
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May 3, 2013 02:15
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Magnitogorsk. posted:The user interface. Tying building density to road density instead of having to zone it seperately. Modular buildings. Elimination of tedious poo poo like power lines and pipes. City specializations. The infographic overlays. Sharing city resources with neighbors (if it actually worked, and if it was optional so you could play single player if you wanted). Collaborative great works. The overall user experience of building poo poo is actually fun and engaging. You have terrible opinions on game design for a city simulator. Removing zoning density from a city simulation is a really, really terrible decision.
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May 3, 2013 06:40
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Smirr posted:It's not. I guess I should only be shocked they didn't figure out a way to include Nissan LEAF a couple more times there.
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May 3, 2013 06:45
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So I'm a gigantic Tropico fan. What, exactly, does this game have in common with that? I seem to recall it's ripped off Tropico's "see every individual in your city" mechanic, but it doesn't seem to have any actual goals or fun variables like instituting ridiculous propoganda about yourself or the like. Hell, I haven't even played a SIm City game since I was a kid. What has been keeping the franchise alive?
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May 3, 2013 06:47
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Speedball posted:What has been keeping the franchise alive? Nothing. This has been the first real SimCity title in a decade, and it sucks. Don't get it.
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May 3, 2013 07:00
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ExtraNoise, your new title is adorable.
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May 3, 2013 08:26
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i81icu812 posted:You have terrible opinions on game design for a city simulator. Removing zoning density from a city simulation is a really, really terrible decision. I don't mind zoning being run through street density at all. Thats one of the few SC5 design decisions I really like. Different strokes and all I guess.
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May 3, 2013 13:00
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Well, not content with Steam making Simcity 4 Deluxe a daily download a few days ago, GOG has jumped into the fray with a 60% off classic EA games sale, which includes Simcity 2000 Special Edition (making its price $2.39). It's Windows- and Mac-compatible, although I think in both cases it's the DOS version running through DOSBox.
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May 3, 2013 13:44
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KnifeWrench posted:I have to respectfully disagree. The "gameplay design" is established in the franchise. The technical implementation is everything -- how you choose to simplify and model complicated systems is the thing in simulation games. Sure, there are new features that were neat, but they're all predicated on the assumption that the agent system is providing a more accurate, deeper simulation. I see your point if you're into the simulation aspects. Personally I just want a fun city builder and don't care how the simulation works. i81icu812 posted:You have terrible opinions on game design for a city simulator. Removing zoning density from a city simulation is a really, really terrible decision. I didn't say anything about removing zoning density, nor did they remove it from the game we're talking about  BigFatFlyingBloke posted:Resources in Sim City are a "press button, get money" contrivance. There's nothing at all interesting about Sim Cities implementation due to its incredible lack of depth. Also implementation is a design problem otherwise any fuckwit who could come up with good ideas would be Warren Spector. If game design wasn't the hard part then every bedroom coder would be pumping out awesome games, and gaming wouldn't be such a hit or miss industry
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May 3, 2013 14:22
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Magnitogorsk. posted:If game design wasn't the hard part then every bedroom coder would be pumping out awesome games, and gaming wouldn't be such a hit or miss industry It's not possible that marketing and distribution are the hard parts? edit: I'd be more sympathetic to this argument if there wasn't a proven design formula that they abandoned because of...reasons. See also: Diablo 3.
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May 3, 2013 14:46
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quote:gaming wouldn't be such a hit or miss industry Define hit or miss.
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May 3, 2013 14:53
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Most games don't make money or become popular, but a few become huge and make a shitload of money
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May 3, 2013 14:56
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Magnitogorsk. posted:I see your point if you're into the simulation aspects. Personally I just want a fun city builder and don't care how the simulation works. I believe the point most people are trying to make (which I agree with), is that in order for a city builder to be fun it necessarily has to have good simulation. If all you want is to design cities... well I guess you could become an urban planner or use CAD or something? If you want a city building game, the simulation is part of the design. Also, design is inexorably tied to production quality for any creative product that's going to eventually be used. Would you buy a designer sofa that looked amazing, but collapsed into a pile of stuffing and splinters as soon as you tried to sit on it? Or a book that used a beautiful, illustrative typeface that was completely unreadable? I'm sure there are a few people out there who might, but your average consumer is going to call foul. e: Magnitogorsk. posted:Most games don't make money or become popular, but a few become huge and make a shitload of money Lots of games make money. Sounds like your definition of a successful game = blockbuster AAA titles. There are slews of indie games that turn profit.
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May 3, 2013 15:00
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I think the idea of "popular" has grown disproportionate over the years. There are plenty of small studios that make a decent profit and reach a decent audience. ed Sim City 2013 isn't even a good city builder.
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May 3, 2013 15:00
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