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Oceanlife
Oct 6, 2008


Welcome to the Michael Jordan Steroid Discussion Thread

This thread exists to help facilitate mature and reasonable discussion on what is often a controversial issue. In the past decade questions have been raised from multiple sources about the legitimacy of Jordans physique. Did the ultra competitive Jordan use steroids, HGH or testosterone enhancement to get an advantage? Under the tight media control of David Stern the NBA avoided the performance enhancing drug scandals that plagued Major League Baseball, Football and even cycling; all the while maintaining the weakest testing policy in professional sports. Many people simply asked why the NBA was so scared to test their top athletes if they had nothing to hide, but these questions were ignored.

Now even though many sports heroes from the 1990's like Lance Armstrong, Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire as well as current NBA players like Hedo Turkoglu have admitted to using steroids, that does not necessary mean Michael Jordan abused them as well. This is not a witch hunt, merely a discussion. In this thread we will provide evidence to help the posters reach their own conclusions as to whether Michael Jordan indeed used steroids to help him compete at the highest level.

Michael Jordan's Alleged Descent into Steroid Use:

Michael Jordan was always an elite athlete from his days at UNC and like many basketball players of the era like Dr J and Connie Hawkisn he possessed a strong but slim frame that was considered ideal for a basketball player:

Take notice of the normal sized head, full hairline, and slim arms.



After a championship at UNC and college player of the year honors Michael Jordan dropped out of school to pursue a career in the NBA. He started off his first year very strongly, averaging 28.2 points and winning rookie of the year honors. Within three years he was the leading scorer in the NBA and averaging over 37 points per game. Billboards adorned his name, he received the first ultra lucrative show deal for his Air Jordan sponsorship and was one of the most recognizable basketball players in the world. Then, his career stalled.

Despite his high scoring and crowd pleasing dunks Michael Jordan was not a champion. Larry Bird and Magic Johnson were in the finals almost every year and considered the #1 and #2 players by knowledgeable fans. This was a constant frustration to Jordan who wanted to be the best. As Bird and Johnson got older Michael Jordan (MJ) knew it was his chance to shine. Except one thing stood in his way: the toughest most physical team in the NBA, the Detroit Pistons.

NBA Champion Detroit Pistons


Contrasting to Michael's "Me first" style the Pistons played the game the right way. They passed to the open man, hustled for loose balls, and played solid defense. But above all else they were physically the strongest team in league history. This made them the most dangerous team in the NBA and they won the Eastern Conference almost every year and two Championships. Their biggest strength was also Michael's greatest enemy, a passing and scoring wizard named Isiah Thomas.

NBA's two top guards show mutual respect before a playoff game


Isiah Thomas hated Jordan's selfish style of play. When Jordan was a rookie Isiah tried to impress the need for team play on the ball hogging young Jordan by passing to the other All Stars. This infuriated Jordan who swore revenge in the post season. However every year in the play offs the Pistons proved too strong for the Bulls to overcome. High flying basketball may win games in the regular season but playoff basketball in the 80's was known for strength and physical play. After years of losing, Jordan enlisted the help of controversial trainer Tim Grover in 1989 who immediately told Jordan he needed to bulk up if he wanted to survive a series with the Pistons. Jordan listened.

Secretive Athletic Trainer and Founder of "Attack Athletics" Tim Grover


This is when we believe Jordan was introduced to steroids. As he said to Sports Illustrated that summer:

Michael Jordan posted:

Some people want it to happen, some wish it would happen, others make it happen

Jordan "made it happen" and worked out extremely hard that off season. Hitting the weights everyday, guided by Tim Grover and boosted by his new cocktail of performance enhancing drugs. He entered the season much bulkier, looking more like a power forward than a perimeter player. It's then we start seeing the first effects of steroid use: Hair loss.

Jordan experiencing rapid hair loss after first summer of alleged steroid use


Fellow players were shocked when they saw Jordan who at 27 completely changed his body from the first 26 years of his life. Some claim this was just from a new training regiment while others feel this is the most stunning proof of performance enhancement. Whatever Jordan did worked, and his new strength made him impossible to defend. Combined with the emergence of the Chicago Bulls role players Jordan won three straight tainted championships from 91-93. However, steroids were slowly changing Jordan as a person. He began fighting with team mates, saying profanities on the basketball court in front of young fans and developed a crippling gambling addiction that likely stemmed from the same addictive personality disorder that led him to steroid abuse. This is known in gym circles as typical "roid rage" and was documented in the best selling novel, The Jordan Rules.

Then came the next chapter of his life, he suddenly retired and played baseball. This also put him into one of the most steroid infused club houses in professional sports, the Chicago White Sox farm system.

Jordan batting .202 for the Birmingham Barons during the hayday of Baseball's steroid era


It was here that the student became the teacher. Surrounded by minor league players who were desperate to succeed, Jordan introduced them to Tim Grover's advanced steroid cycles. Players like Chris Snopek, Matt Karchner, Steve Gajkowski, Chris Tremie, Doug Brady and Larry Thomas all took Jordan's lessons seriously and were able to make it to the Major Leagues a few years later. Karchner in particular became Jordan's apostle for many years, spreading steroid secrets to the Chicago Cubs. Having a crisis of conscience he later exposed steroids in the locker room, though he protected Jordan

quote:

He also told baseball investigator George J. Mitchell that one of the players had injected the steroids into the other player's buttocks, and then injected them into his own body. Karchner would not identify the players. He also declined to identify the names of Cubs teammates whom he said had offered him steroids.

Unable to make it in the majors and two years removed from making an NBA income, Jordan decided to return to the NBA for one last run.

Now bald and noticeably bulkier Michael Jordan upon returning to the NBA in 1996


Jordan returned for the end of the 1995 season and realized his team had changed. They were still good, but they weren't strong enough to win a championship. They were eliminated in the playoffs and that summer Jordan vowed to not let it happen again. For the first time he was going to reveal his training secrets to two select teammates: Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman.

Pippen and Rodman were two very thin but very active and athletic players prior to the 1996 season. Notice their physiques prior to training with Michael Jordan


Jordan had one rule for his two young disciples: Win at all costs. He had seen how his training had turned mediocre minor league players into legitimate MLB starters and he knew if he used it on players as talented as Pippen and Rodman they would be unstoppable. Training began that summer and in 1996 Jordan had two super star teammates with bodies that were now cut from steroid infused granite.

Noticeably more muscular Rodman and Pippen


And so began the NBA Bulls 72-10 NBA Championship season. After winning three more championships Jordan retired for a second time. But Pippen and Rodman were both different people. Under the influence of steroids Pippen would instigate fights and became so self centered and narcissistic that he wouldn't even tip his waiters, becoming known as "no tippin Pippen". Rodman was in countless fights with Karl Malone and even kicked an innocent cameraman during a game. Jordan won his second threepeat but at what cost?

I wish this was the end of the story, but there is one more chapter in MJ's cycle of steroid abuse: The Washington Wizards

An older MJ showing puffy muscle definition caused by retained water after a heavy steroid cycle


Jordan needed a training partner to prepare for the season and was introduced to Ron Artest. Ron at the time was a young rookie who wasn't even old enough to legally drink. But he was tough and provided the enthusiasm Jordan required. Sadly, Jordan's influence rubbed off on Artest.

Ron Artest as a young rookie


Ron Artest after training with Michael Jordan


Ron Artest wasn't mentally prepared for the heavy cycles Jordan introduced him to. This backfired in a way MJ never expected when in a fit of roid rage Ron Artest broke two of Jordan's ribs. Artest later went on to attack a fan during a basketball game in an event known as "Malice in the Palace". That's the risk with introducing steroid to a young person, you never know how they are going to react.

During his time with the Wizards only one player resisted Jordan's controversial methods, a young #1 pick named Kwame Brown. This infuriated Jordan to the point he would use sexually explicit and degrading language towards the 18 year old Brown causing psychological damage that prevented him from becoming the Next Garnett he was projected to be. Eventually even steroids were not enough to keep MJ's game effective at an NBA level. His shooting percentage was falling to almost below .400 and he had to beg Vince Carter to let him start in his last all star game. He was clearly finished. And after failing to make the playoffs for two straight seasons Michael Jordan retired for good, leaving behind a tainted legacy.

Conclusion: Remember this thread is for mature discussion. If anyone has additional evidence of Jordan using steroids or first or second hand accounts please post them in this thread. The sanctity of the game is paramount. Even though many of us idolized Jordan as naive youths, we owe it to the future generations to know the truth about the player sometimes referred to as the greatest of all time.

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WhyteRyce
Dec 30, 2001

Spirited scintillating Sacramento shooters so-called Stauskas and Stojakovic stay super sexy

Look MJ is an old man and he just beat the #2 overall pick in a pick up game. Logic dictates he had some kind of help

EMoney
Jul 19, 2004


I injected HGH into michael jordan's butt

Soultron
Oct 22, 2008




Settle in, folks. It's gonna be a wild ride.

WhyteRyce
Dec 30, 2001

Spirited scintillating Sacramento shooters so-called Stauskas and Stojakovic stay super sexy

Everyone knows that Stern asked MJ to leave basketball in 93 because of steroids, not gambling. Sorry Simmons.

MJ retired in 98 because Krause wanted to bring in new medical staff that knew nothing about steroids and would snitch if they found out

Harlock
Jan 15, 2006

Tap "A" to drink!!!



I really think the OP is on to something here. Michael Jordan's influence can be found in many different places. For isntance, take Bugs Bunny:



Before Michael Jordan showed up to help the Looney Tunes play Basketball against the Monstars, Bugs was just a fun loving rabbit who was always quick with a joke and a laugh. However, after training with Jordan, his physique started to change:



Notice the increased muscle definition in his arms and the swelling in his feet. Don't tell me you can get that way just by eating carrots. Bugs became a show boater, always seeking the spotlight and the attention. His spats with Daffy Duck became legendary as the two screamed at each other in a roid filled rage, "Duck Season!" and, "Rabbit Season!"

Sure, Michael Jordan helped the Looney Tunes beat the Monstars, but at what cost?

Stealth Tiger
Nov 14, 2009


Dude, it was just water

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbaKze622Kg

MVP
Nov 1, 2012


So if Michael Jordan didn't use steroids how long would it have take him to bulk up naturally? Or is there a point that the body can't pass without synthetic supplements?

<--

MourningView
Sep 2, 2006

Superman Wore Number 6


I'm so proud.

The B_36
Jul 10, 2012


MourningView posted:

I'm so proud.

Be proud when ESPN picks up this story, then your dreams will come true and you can ascend to the next level of enlightenment on a cloud of smug contentment that Michael Jordan's crimes against sports have been brought to light.

MVP posted:

So if Michael Jordan didn't use steroids how long would it have take him to bulk up naturally? Or is there a point that the body can't pass without synthetic supplements?

<--

Dude, I thought we were going to try to avoid useless hypotheticals based on untrue statements like "what if Jordan didn't use steroids, then...".

The B_36 fucked around with this message at May 5, 2013 around 17:54

pylb
Sep 22, 2010

"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"


I think there are a lot of Michael Jordan quotes that might give us an insight into why he started using them.

quote:

I play to win, whether during practice or a real game. And I will not let anything get in the way of me and my competitive enthusiasm to win.

quote:

Obstacles donít have to stop you. If you run into a wall, donít turn around and give up. Figure out how to climb it, go through it, or work around it.

quote:

Once I made a decision, I never thought about it again.

quote:

How many times have your parents told you not to do things, and the next thing you know, you go do it? And you realized you shouldn't have done it.

quote:

I believe greatness is an evolutionary process that changes and evolves era to era.

quote:

I enjoy gambling, but I think people are trying to make it seem like I have a problem, because people really don't know.


Also

quote:

I've had tendinitis since college.
It's understandable that he'd try everything to play through that. The game was his passion.

Criminal Minded
Jan 4, 2005

Spring break forever


Great stuff but I'm not seeing a lot of discussion here about how Jordan's rage issues and the subsequent beating of a Chicago gang member led to the retaliatory murder of his father in 1993.

C. Everett Koop
Aug 18, 2008

madam, your hydraulic pressure is atrocious!

It's also worth noting that Jordan's had a tremendous amount of influence on Tiger Woods, who also has a body that's closer to a football player than a golfers and has significant issues with his own temper to the point of roid rage freakouts on national television. In short, Jordan hasn't just destroyed the game of basketball but golf as well.

Goatman Sacks
Apr 4, 2011
MORON. IGNORE ME, AND REPORT ANY WHITE NOISE POSTS I MAKE


I don't really follow NBA much, but is this thread serious? How could steroids make that big of a difference in someone's basketball ability?

Jose Oquendo
Jun 20, 2004


Goatman Sacks posted:

I don't really follow NBA much, but is this thread serious? How could steroids make that big of a difference in someone's basketball ability?

If you've read the entire thread and still have to ask that question, I don't know what to tell you.

Goatman Sacks
Apr 4, 2011
MORON. IGNORE ME, AND REPORT ANY WHITE NOISE POSTS I MAKE


Its early

fignewton
Dec 28, 2012


Hedo used steroids to heal his shoulder apparently, not to enhance his performance.

Also everyone should use steroids it would make it fair and fun to watch.

Sash!
Mar 16, 2001



Its a well known fact that Dennis Rodman wasn't human in the first place, so it's not useful to use him as an example.

Bip Roberts
Mar 29, 2005



Goatman Sacks posted:

I don't really follow NBA much, but is this thread serious? How could steroids make that big of a difference in someone's basketball ability?

All the evidence is on the table in the OP. If that's not enough to convince you I'm not sure what you would need.

The broken bones
Jan 3, 2008

Out beyond winning and losing, there is a field.

I will meet you there.

hey guys, just a heads up, people get bigger and fill out after they turn 19.

MourningView
Sep 2, 2006

Superman Wore Number 6


Hey, just a heads up, you're dumb and Michael Jordan was a cheater.

Whirlwind Jones
Apr 13, 2013



The broken bones posted:

hey guys, just a heads up, people get bigger and fill out after they turn 19.
I didn't.

Lord Binky
Jun 4, 2006

shadowy nessa egg undresses you with magical eyes


Once you do a steroid you become a baseball superman. Since that didn't happen with Jordan, he didn't do steroids.

Waltzing Along
Jun 14, 2008

May your eyes be opened by the wonderful


I am both amazed at the skill of this troll thread and disgusted by the thread at the same time.

Manstrocity
Apr 28, 2009


The broken bones posted:

hey guys, just a heads up, people get bigger and fill out after they turn 19.

You're going to need to source your arguments in this thread, buddy.

Rand alPaul
Feb 3, 2010



The broken bones posted:

hey guys, just a heads up, people get bigger and fill out after they turn 19.

My penis disagrees.

Please grow

Lord Binky
Jun 4, 2006

shadowy nessa egg undresses you with magical eyes


Rand alPaul posted:

My penis disagrees.

Please grow

I would NOT recommend steroids for your problem, fellow micropenis goon.

Meat Recital
Mar 26, 2009

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DB_VhPpfF0

The broken bones posted:

hey guys, just a heads up, people get bigger and fill out after they turn 19.

Yes, because they start taking steroids.

Waltzing Along
Jun 14, 2008

May your eyes be opened by the wonderful


Rand alPaul posted:

My penis disagrees.

Please grow

My penis agrees. But so do my balls so, yeah...

3peat
May 6, 2010

chaos & destroy & loli


The broken bones posted:

hey guys, just a heads up, people get bigger and fill out after they turn 19.

No offense fellow goon, but you getting fat as hell when you turned 19 and having to turn sideways to navigate doors and being a virgin has NOTHING to do with well documented Michael Jordan steroids abuse as seen in the OP.

WhyteRyce
Dec 30, 2001

Spirited scintillating Sacramento shooters so-called Stauskas and Stojakovic stay super sexy

Why is anyone even arguing if MJ did steroids after all the evidence that has come out? You're going to feel awfully silly when he does his Oprah interview.

The most constructive thing we can do is debate what this means for his records and try to adjust them to make fair comparisons. Honestly, if you adjust his production to account for this his stat line is going to end up comparing favorably with Joe Johnson or Rudy Gay. Not bad, and pretty good for the era, but by no means the GOAT

Bip Roberts
Mar 29, 2005



Just think of the career that Sam Bowie was cheated out of by sticking to the rules and playing the game the right way.

wheez the roux
Aug 2, 2004

the agony
and the ecstasy


i've wanted to know what turned mj into Literal Hitler and this post has been a beacon of light. ty op for bring his crimes against basketball to my attention. nice

schmitty9800
Feb 9, 2003



Great idea OP, we should also start highlighting other strange gains by 90s superstars. Case in point:

From this (healthy collegiate player)
to this (looks like a pro wrestler more than a basketball player)
and this (Schwarzenegger territory) is definitely unnatural.

schmitty9800 fucked around with this message at May 5, 2013 around 20:36

Mr. Humalong
May 7, 2007
?

Wait, I thought basketball players don't lift weights?

Eating the Pudding
Apr 28, 2009



They might not. Steroids are like liquid muscles. I ate one once.

Eating the Pudding fucked around with this message at May 5, 2013 around 20:53

Brennan
Jan 18, 2005



Mr. Humalong posted:

Wait, I thought basketball players don't lift weights?

everyone lifts weights now except distance runners and power walkers

Whirlwind Jones
Apr 13, 2013



Eating the Pudding posted:

They might not. Steroids are like liquid muscles. I ate one once.
Reported. Enjoy jail you cheater.

MourningView
Sep 2, 2006

Superman Wore Number 6


schmitty9800 posted:

Great idea OP, we should also start highlighting other strange gains by 90s superstars. Case in point:

From this (healthy collegiate player)
to this (looks like a pro wrestler more than a basketball player)
and this (Schwarzenegger territory) is definitely unnatural.

Karl Malone is well known to the be the hardest working man in the history of professional sports to the point that he selflessly abandoned multiple children just so he could work out more. Please do not derail this most serious of discussions with your pathetic troll attempts, or there will be consequences.

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Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


Every athlete did steroids. Every one of them. If they didn't use it for mass they used it for recovery or energy. Except the French. They are clean. I am former IOC Vice President Dick Pound and I approve this message.

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