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To change the subject, I've been lurking in the thread for a bit and am interested in visiting a temple/center. I'd appreciate recommendations and I'm also really unfamiliar with any protocol or preparation involved. I live in Los Angeles near Thai Town, there's no shortage of options. In fact, there's a shiny new NKT place two blocks from my apartment!  Should I just attend one of the Sunday sermon/meditation sessions and feel things out? Would it be a good idea to call ahead and let them know I'm coming as a guest? Or would I be better off starting with a few books first?
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Sep 12, 2014 01:21
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Dr.Caligari posted:It all comes down to the individual. I have no doubt some practice Buddhism without a teacher (isn't that Zen?), and do so without any worries. However, as with almost any subject, a good teacher works to steer the student and aide them on there journey. I'm sure I could thoroughly learn chemistry if I had enough resources and time, but I would learn much quicker if I had a person that I could ask questions and 'personalize' the education to my strengths and weaknesses. On top of that it should be considered that Buddhism isn't a solid science that can't all be explained in words and graphs, so a mentor is even more valuable. It all comes down to the individual, yes, but I'm not sure that the idea of "going it alone" without a teacher and so on in Buddhism works very well. In Zen, the teacher-student relationship is critical, as the teacher is meant to skillfully assign koans and meditation and so on, skillfully assess understanding of koans, deliver turning words, and so on. It is not easy or recommended to study Buddhism without some kind of teacher. Even just going from books and so on is very difficult, because it is easy to misunderstand books, and to develop wrong views without any means of correction. It is, after all, difficult enough to interpret philosophy in plain language, let alone when it has been translated sometimes through two or three languages before getting to the user. Look how many different understandings of "dukkha" there are, from "suffering" to "unsatisfactoriness." So many loaded concepts come from words, and it is important to have a qualified lama to help navigate this. There are different types of teachers and seekers and so on, also, and the correct one for the correct stage of development is also important. Many practitioners have multiple gurus, each serving different roles. One might give direct instruction, "practice this," one might give more practical advice, another might inspire the heart of action, and so on. Berzin Archives has Relating to a Spiritual Teacher: Building a Healthy Relationship in full, I have linked here to a specific chapter that delineates the different types of teachers and students, where previous chapters give traditional definitions, and so on. I find this a really fascinating topic right now because for some years I've been studying under the direction of my Sangha's spiritual director, but I have also recently been inspired so deeply, so penetratingly, by the Gyalwang Drukpa that I cannot possibly conclude anything other than that he has been my guru of many lifetimes and is one I might call a "root guru." Holiness Drukpa has no centers in the US and is rarely here, so until I can meet him in person I can only study his written words and watch his videos on YouTube. This, of course, is all with the encouragement of Khenpo Rinpoche, who is my guru in practical matters. Pellisworth posted:To change the subject, I've been lurking in the thread for a bit and am interested in visiting a temple/center. I'd appreciate recommendations and I'm also really unfamiliar with any protocol or preparation involved. I live in Los Angeles near Thai Town, there's no shortage of options. In fact, there's a shiny new NKT place two blocks from my apartment! I would encourage you to attend a center first, rather than doing extensive reading up front. Then you can have someone who has met you and perhaps even a Lama with some discerning wisdom who can tell you exactly what would be good to read. Perhaps you can even get the books from the center, thus supporting the center financially as well, which is always good. You might consider calling ahead just to let them know and ask if there's anything in particular you should know. At my center, at least, if you call ahead and are expected, someone will probably offer to help hold your hand so to speak and explain what's going on and answer any questions you might have, serving as a "first point of contact" which can be very helpful. Not every center does this of course, it really depends. In your region, I'm sure there are many options, so what do you think interests you? There's no need to commit to just one thing, I think you will just know when you have run into the one that you like or you want to practice. But maybe start with something that seems interesting culturally or with a particular style? Paramemetic fucked around with this message at 01:36 on Sep 12, 2014 |
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Sep 12, 2014 01:27
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I agree. So let me try to make the distinction that I have been trying since the beginning of my involvement in this thread. I am not speaking from any authority, just as a person who has needed to see what it is that isn't right, something was not right, is not right. To learn Buddhism and to be a Buddhist, I believe a teacher is absolutely essential. Learning about it on your own is not sufficient, you need a guide of some sort, any sort. Even a monk, because they have taken a vow to be serious about their practice. But there are teachers readily available in the Western world. I said this ever since the beginning. It is an intellectual and experiential discipline, and a rigorous one at that. People cannot just go off the reservation and believe what they want to believe, Wafflehound and I agree on that. There are established modes of thinking and acting. The switch that I am talking about, is the one where you realize, all these precepts, seals, noble truths and all the rest, are trying to point towards something in me. We keep talking about fingers pointing at the moon and so on. They are all pointing at something so inherent in being a human being that they become irrelevant once you see what they are pointing at. All Buddhism is trying to tell you about is you, the objective world is inside you, you experience it from inside you. I don't think I am getting this across right. What I mean is, to be a Buddhist, a teacher is required. But to see its immediate application to your very existence, past the conceptions that try to point towards your existence, no teacher is needed. It's you it is all talking about. And everyone else. Every individual person is being spoken about within Buddhist teachings. The Heart Sutra points right towards this I believe. It cuts through the chaff. Even more directly than Dzogchen or Mahamudra. No teacher is required to see what it is trying to point out. It's not an attainment. It's something about you, yourself. And it cuts deep. Sorry for this post. the worst thing is fucked around with this message at 01:34 on Sep 12, 2014 |
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Sep 12, 2014 01:31
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Btw, since y'all got me thinking about it... I find it helpful to try to remember that while there is in theory a 'pure' Buddhism that is delineated in various formal ways, everyone interacts with Buddhist perspectives and teachings and stuff in their own individual way. What parts a person feels some particular kinship with vary greatly. What parts of either formal (or casual/folk/family style) Buddhism a person has run into vary greatly. The same is true with the scriptures and teachings and all that stuff. What chunk of those a person has run into leads to some massively different understandings of what Buddhism is (in some abstract sense) as well as what Buddhism has been in their own life. I've never seen any evidence that one is better than any other in really any way, just that they all suit different people and are mostly determined by a persons geographic location, family and community. Considering how wildly different people are, it's only natural to have some massively different perspectives. Really, that's the main thing that keeps me reading this thread: it's thought provoking and interesting to hear about all the different ways people have run into Buddhist thought, practice, philosophy, ethics, retreats, etc. As someone who struggled for a long time with trying to be a more peaceful, warmer, gentler person, those are the parts of Buddhism I find myself relating to most deeply. From what I can tell, most people find a few aspects that, due to where they are in life and other circumstances, just hit home the most. Personally, I think that's pretty awesome, but it can definitely lead to things getting contentious because people definitely do have experiences of Buddhism that would be contradictory to someone else in a different situation. The other thing I find helpful to keep in mind is that there is no universal advice in Buddhism that is really more specific than 'try to follow the eightfold path.' Due to everyone being different, all direction or suggestion has to be individually tailored. For someone prone to half-assing things, 'take this stuff more seriously' might be good advice, for a perfectionist prone to obsessing over things, it might be particularly bad advice. Hence all of the emphasis in formal Buddhism to be skillful. That process of seeing each persons unique circumstances and personality is basically the essence of skillful means. After all, there's a lot of stuff in Buddhism that is true in some peoples' experience, but would have no relevance to the experience of others. E: Caligari: You're right on about the variety of approaches and experiences, imo. As Paramemetic mentioned, Zen is pretty big on teachers. Not in the sense that they are considered technically necessary (or always equally formal for that matter) but it's generally understood that if someone has a serious interest in Zen, they'll sooner or later make some effort to find a teacher. What that teaching relationship will look like really varies though. Most people in Zen I've run into would cite multiple people as having been meaningful teachers, though usually there's one that they have a bit more formal relationship with. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 01:43 on Sep 12, 2014 |
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Sep 12, 2014 01:36
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Because drug use was mentioned earlier, can experiencing "ego death" via psychedelics be helpful in understanding some concepts (eg formlessness) in buddhism?
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Sep 12, 2014 09:10
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midnightclimax posted:Because drug use was mentioned earlier, can experiencing "ego death" via psychedelics be helpful in understanding some concepts (eg formlessness) in buddhism? I think it's safe to say that taking psychedelics is less helpful than doing the actual things described by the Buddha, I mean, the Buddha is basically saying - again and again - "here is what to do to realize the same things I have realized", so it is kind of a sidestep to do psychedelics instead of that. I think taking precepts will do a lot more for your meditation practice than taking psychedelics. For me personally, I feel using psychedelics would be a pretty big step in the wrong direction, I'm sure that when the Buddha laid out the path the way that he did, it was because that's the best way to do it. Edit: Also, there's no guarantee of seeing things clearly with wisdom when you use drugs, so I guess you risk internalizing a wrong view. Rhymenoceros fucked around with this message at 09:48 on Sep 12, 2014 |
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Sep 12, 2014 09:34
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The critical thing when considering talking about "Buddhism" writ large is that there are infinite different beings with infinite different karmas, and all those beings need one thing or another, but no two are exactly in the same place. Maybe one needs to learn compassion, one needs to learn wisdom, one needs to learn both, one needs to learn neither but just appearance and emptiness union, and so on. It's easy to tell based on our different personalities that different things work for different people. Some people have really good work ethic and can stick to routines easily, so maybe regular practice is best for them. Some people don't do that as well, but just need to interact with gurus. One brilliant practitioner at my sangha hardly ever sits through practices. Instead he sweeps, chops wood, maintains the grounds. That is his practice. One thing to keep in mind is that even our ability to encounter dharma is a result of our karma. This is why people are drawn to specific teachers or teachings, or have a desire to learn about a specific thing. Maybe you heard just the name of a particular sutra and became more intensely curious about it than anything else, and maybe that's because you'd been studying it 200 lifetimes ago. It's generally accepted I think that everything is due to past karmic connections. Nobody is a "first time Vajrayana practitioner," because it takes a karmic connection to a guru to do that. Or maybe you were a bug the guru stepped on on accident in a past life, who knows? It doesn't matter. The other thing I have to remind myself often is something my Khenpo rinpoche told me once, which is that it is not necessary to be a great bodhisattva in this life. Maybe just try to be a good one. "Vajrayana is a great vehicle to deliver complete enlightenment in just one lifetime, but not necessarily this one lifetime." Wherever we are in our spiritual development, that's okay and we need to go from that point. If our karma makes this or that topic incomprehensible, that's okay, practice what you can. Anyways, the point is that it is really silly to criticize people's paths or understanding I think, but it's important that everyone understands that we are all in different places of spiritual development so not everyone can even perceive or understand things. For example a lot of times I believe I'm being very clear and saying things that seem really profound to me, but because of my inferior understanding and lack of skill it comes out all bungled and is just useless gossip. Then I end up writing way way too many words when I need to be sleeping. So I hope I haven't wasted your time too much.
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Sep 12, 2014 09:37
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There is one practitioner I know who used drugs in college a lot in the 60s and even achieved through LSD or whatever a momentary ego death. This was good because it encouraged him to find the correct way to have spiritual experiences but in my brief talks on the subject with him I also fear it has created a conceptual idea of what accomplishment looks like in his mind, such that instead of genuinely seeking enlightenment, he's instead just seeking this drug experience without realizing it. So I don't think it's useful to use drugs to seek the result of enlightenment. That said, drug use can be profoundly spiritual, and there are whole classes of drugs considered entheogens. That spiritual path is legitimate (sometimes) but it is not Buddhist really.
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Sep 12, 2014 09:42
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Temporary ego death experienced through anesthetics is what drove me to Buddhism, and I am not complaining all these years later. So it was kind of useful to me, although I wouldn't recommend it or think that drugs can make you a Buddhist. e: I would also like to apologize for being rude earlier, I had no idea that was the return of obamacaredude.
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Sep 12, 2014 12:36
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So looks like there is more drama developing today on FB..Gyalwang Drukpa FB posted:Tathapri Monastery, originally Drukpa and managed by Druk Sanga Choeling (the head monastery of Drukpa founded by the 4th Gyalwang Drukpa Kunkhyen Pema Karpo), is decorated with "Karma Kagyu" emblem designed by Karmapa Ugyen Thinley Dorjee. It now only has "Drukpa" in name, but photos of His Holiness the Gyalwang Drukpa has been replaced with photos of His Holiness Karmapa Ugyen Trinlay Dorje. In the middle is Guru Padmasambhava, flanked by a small statue of Buddha Shakyamuni. There is also a photo inside a smaller Drukpa monastery in Mount Kailash now only has picture of Karmapa Ugyen Thinley Dorjee. Attached was this picture:   I'm not sure what is really going on, and suspect an outside party or a few 'corrupt' insiders are trying to make a rift. I don't believe either the high llama would condone this . Either way I am saddened and hope it can be resolved soon. I've tried researching a little bit, but can someone tell me the differences between Drukpa and Karma Kagyu? How different are the practices?
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Sep 13, 2014 01:12
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Dr.Caligari posted:I've tried researching a little bit, but can someone tell me the differences between Drukpa and Karma Kagyu? How different are the practices? They're both from the same lineage line, diverging after Gampopa. The practices are superficially similar but there are some different focuses on different deity yogas. Unfortunately it is pretty hard to get information about the Drukpa tradition from outside it so far as I can tell, and there are no Drukpa centers in the US. This has been very difficult for me since I adore the Gyalwang Drukpa and consider him my root guru, but that's neither here nor there. Historically, the Drukpa Kagyu exists in two different parts, the Northern and Southern traditions. The Northern Druk tradition is found in Tibet and the diaspora, the Southern is specifically the flavor of Drukpa that is the State Religion of Bhutan. It is likely difficult to learn about the Southern Druk tradition from outside because of the rather strict cultural controls that Bhutan utilizes. Its head is the Je Khenpo, who is an elected abbot, not a tulku. As for the Northern Druk tradition, Holiness Drukpa was trained and educated by Ri Me practitioners, that is, a major movement that looks to move beyond sectarian divisions and learn everything and use what works. His root guru is a Nyingma master, for example, and he has been trained in all of the various schools. So as a result the teachings of the Gyalwang Drukpa are almost never things unique to Drukpa, rather, it's very synthetic and universal (within Tibetan Buddhism). The spiritual head of the Northern Druk is His Holiness the 12th Gyalwang Drukpa Jigme Pema Wangchen. Historically, the Druk lineage is renowned for its large number of sorcerers and madmen. Many Drukpa have had "crazy wisdom," perhaps the best known being Drukpa Kunley, who liberated thousands of women with his "thunderbolt of flaming wisdom" (dick) and is responsible for Bhutanese people painting mad penises on their houses. They are also known for practicing magic and having many, many accomplished yogis within the tradition. In Kham there was a saying, "half the people are Drukpa, half the Drukpa are wandering Yogins, and half of these Yogins are enlightened saints!" There is some history here actually that likely indicates that while the Chinese are agitating, more is at play. Some years ago, Holiness Drukpa declared that the Drukpa Lineage will no longer be known as "Drukpa Kagyu" but should now only be known as "The Spiritual Lineage of Glorious Dragons" or simply the "Dragon Lineage." (Druk means dragon, which name comes from the founder having witnessed 9 dragons come from a mountain, and subsequently building a monastery there). He said "different lineages within a major Tibetan Buddhist branch are like brothers, of course some brothers do better than others, but that doesn't mean that those doing better could self-appoint themselves as the heads of other weaker brothers' households and take over their assets, wives and children, in the name of 'helping' and in the name of 'supporting'," and for that reason it is better that Kagyu not be used any longer." This is in response to a general attitude of the Karma Kagyu that because they are the largest Kagyu school, and very successful and influential, as well as being older, that the Karmapa is the head of all Kagyu schools. It's very distressing news, all told, I've been following it for several days now (I posted a single line about it some days ago I think but I have been very busy with work so I haven't been able to spend much time on this). I'd also like to extrapolate a bit on the Drukpa and their political positions and so on, but I don't have much time. Earlier in the week, Holiness Drukpa posted an open letter to Holiness Karmapa urging him to publicly denounce these actions.
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Sep 13, 2014 03:46
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So let's talk modern writings by modern lamas. How do you all rate these mentally relative to other texts? For example, there are many traditional texts that are a thousand years, two thousand years old, that teach this or that practice or this or that view on reality, but these books aren't always very pertinent to our daily lives today. On the other hand, there are a lot of modern books, many written with almost a casual, "self help" vibe, that are written by popular monks or high lamas in various traditions. Not all of these are scholarly "religious writing." For example, "The Art of Happiness" by the Dalai Lama, or "Everyday Enlightenment" by the Gyalwang Drukpa, or "Peace is Every Step" by TNH. These are casual sorts of books, not written like scholarly religious prose. The question is, how do you find these texts? I have been thinking about this lately because I have been reading a book by the Gyalwang Drukpa that is, to me, extremely profound, but it is very casually written and does not have a fancy title. A lot of older books have fancy titles, for example, Gampopa's "The Jewel Ornament of Liberation: The Wish Fulfilling Gem of the Noble Teachings" or Atisha's "Lamp for the Path to Enlightenment." These have really fancy titles but are basically just guidebooks for living life, though they are steeped in the language of Dharma, originally written in religious prose or poetic form, and so when translated they read in a very scholarly way. Modern books, many of which are written directly in English, tend to not have this high and fancy language and so don't seem immediately as profound. However, reading these books, I've decided that this attachment to fancy titles and scriptural, scholarly language is really a stupid affectation. While of course the language of scripture is important, and adds a kind of legitimacy, isn't that legitimacy just grasping? Just something we want so we can mentally feel like "oh this is really profound, listen to this high and fancy language, all these technical terms, this is really good." Of course that's impressive, but you know, "renunciation of attachment and aversion is the path to the cessation of suffering" is not really more profound than "not wanting for things to be different than they are and being satisfied with things right now is the key to being happy no matter what." Basically, I was thinking of getting Holiness Drukpa's books "Everyday Enlightenment" and his new one, "Happiness is a State of Mind," and found briefly the thought arising, "hey, I should be reading Sutras and more important books like the Jewel Ornament and doing practices, not just reading these casual books." And upon recognizing that thought, I determined it is a nonsense thought - so-called "casual" books are in fact just as profound, maybe more so, since they are written in my modern time and in my language for people in my situation. Further, while they are not written by a historical yogi, in this case they are written by an enlightened master of a lineage who I consider my own root guru, how can anything be more profound? How silly we all are with our affectations, where we value some words over other ones when they mean exactly the same thing! Anyhow, I was just examining that bias, I wonder what you all think about this?
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Sep 16, 2014 14:48
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From the zen perspective, for example, you have, on one hand, Suzuki's Zen Mind Beginner's mind, or Nishikima's work, which are written in a very easy-to-understand language, as if a friend was explaining things to you. On the other hand, you have Dogen's Shobogenzo, which sounds like psychedelic poetry sometimes but conveys the same (non-)ideas. I'd say i love both approaches and i find them both really important. What is important is the ability to go from one to the other. Sometime, nebulous and really formal, classical writing, has a strong effect on the reader because the meaning is not easily accessible, and it is in fact why it is written like that : cause ultimately, there is no "real" meaning, there is nothing to attain. So i think this old fashioned style of writing is really important in showing this. On the other hand, it's really great to be able to read "easy", "real life" stuff. But i would do both, really. Reading Dogen helps me understand what Suzuki says ; reading Suzuki helps me understand Dogen. It's really complementary, for me.
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Sep 16, 2014 17:09
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I'm probably not particularly qualified to comment, not having read many myself, but you're right that something written in English is going to read better than a translation. Also it obviously depends on the intended audience, if it's going to be read by a monk or theologian (or someone who reads a lot of Bhuddist books) they will probably prefer the "scholarly" version which is less than half the wordcount of the "casual" example you gave. And if you're writing poetically I guess you can have layers of meaning or more subtle meaning which leads to more contemplation than a simple statement.
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Sep 16, 2014 17:13
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The traditional Tibetan writing is always done in a strict form with sets of four verses and so on. This makes scholarly Tibetan texts especially tedious to read because they tend to drop arbitrarily drop syllables from words to make sure it fits the verses. I agree that there are definitely people who benefit from the scholarly, intensive "scriptural" writing, I'm not saying that one is better than the other. My thing was just that I caught myself with rigid thinking, saying to myself "well this is just a casual book, not really scripture." But really I have realized I think that any book is right. There's nothing more likely to lead to enlightenment from a book written 1800 years ago by a qualified master than there is in a book written 10 years ago by a qualified master. The zen bits are very interesting, I am not very familiar with zen writing or texts. I am glad to hear there is more casual writing even back then. An example of the kind of casual writing I'm talking about here is an excerpt (I have selected this randomly from ones I've already typed up): "I don't have any special recommendations, but I just want to say, "Be there in your day-to-day life with some understanding. Be aware of your every moment so that you can practice Buddhism or spirituality without 'doing' anything." That's the best way. You can carry out your duties of looking after the children, looking after the family and all these things, but you are really not doing anything in terms of spiritual practice. Neveretheless, you are doing without doing, if you are aware of yourself. Be aware of every moment and every minute, and try to understand to be aware of all actions as something relative. If you realize this, you will really be doing something worthwhile." - His Holiness the Gyalwang Drukpa, Walking an Uncommon Path.
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Sep 16, 2014 17:25
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Here is an example of a comparison between Suzuki and Dogen. They both talk about separating practice, enlightenment, and every day life. It's also about "emptiness" (sunyata). Suzuki : "Even before we practice it, enlightenment is there. But usually we understand the practice of zazen and enlightenment as two different things : here is practice, like a pair of glasses, and when we use the practice, like putting the glasses on, we see enlightenment. This is the wrong understanding. The glasses themselves are enlightenment, and to put them on is also enlightenment. So whatever you do, or even though you do not do anything, enlightenment is there, always." Shunryu Suzuki, Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind. Dogen : "When all dharmas are seen as the Buddha-Dharma, then there is delusion and realization, there is practice, there is life and there is death, there are buddhas and there are ordinary beings. When the myriad dharmas are each not of the self, there is no delusion and no realization, no buddhas and no ordinary beings, no life and no death. The Buddha's truth is originally transcendent over abundance and scarcity, and so there is life and death, there is delusion and realization, there are beings and buddhas. And though it is like this, it is only that flowers, while loved, fall ; and weeds, while hated, flourish." Dogen, Shobogenzo (Genjo-Koan). Both texts do not really exactly match in meaning, but they approach the same stuff in different styles. I find both really interesting and complementary. You understand Suzuki better thanks to Dogen ; you understand Dogen better thanks to Suzuki. Ugrok fucked around with this message at 10:31 on Sep 17, 2014 |
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Sep 17, 2014 00:29
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I agree with the idea that there is a certain power in casual books. I like to think that at certain points my life, I need help and dharma texts on situations with the relative world. This is where things like Pema Chodron or some of the more popular books really come in handy and help me see clearly. At the same time, there are also parts of my life where I have lots of clarity and spaciousness, and a book such as Jewel Ornament of Liberation or some obscure sutra can be particularly powerful practice. Not to mention, there are also many phenomenal contemporary books that exist too, such as Progressive Stages of Meditation on Emptiness or Pointing Out the Great Way, which one could argue will be critically important practice texts for future Western Buddhist practitioners.
reversefungi fucked around with this message at 02:36 on Sep 17, 2014 |
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Sep 17, 2014 02:30
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Hey, everyone, I just wanted to introduce myself. I've been lurking a bit. I've had a bit of an off-and-on relationship with Buddhism. I'm a therapist, and my therapeutic model is heavily based on Buddhist psychology; there's a heavy emphasis on mindfulness and acceptance, and it focuses more heavily on changing our relationships to our thoughts and emotions, rather than attempting to change them. However, I haven't been the best about maintaining my own practice. I was raised Christian, and identified as Quaker for a long time, but I've always felt pulled toward Buddhism. I'm starting to practice zazen daily, and I'm reading just about everything I can get my hands on. I'm lucky in that all of the major schools seem to be represented in my city (Austin). I'm thinking about checking out the Zen center soon. If it feels like a good fit, I should be able to attend zazen every day at noon before I go to work, which would be great. I'm currently reading The Heart of the Buddha's Teachings. I feel like I've got a good (mental) grasp on the basics (Four Noble Truths, Eightfold Path, Five Aggregates, etc), but I'm just not sure where to go from here. Hopefully all of you can understand this, but I've just had a really insatiable hunger for knowledge and insight. That's all well and good, but it interferes with my mindfulness practice from time to time in that, rather than just sitting and being mindful, I get wrapped up in thoughts of trying to understand everything (what is reality? what does no-self mean? what is emptiness? who is thinking? what are thoughts? etc.) Anyways, just looking forward to getting to talk to some of y'all. Thanks for the awesome OP.
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Sep 17, 2014 08:18
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discoukulele posted:Austin Austin Zen Center was my go-to for a while, itʻs amazing and you should look into it 
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Sep 17, 2014 08:43
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WAFFLEHOUND posted:Austin Zen Center was my go-to for a while, itʻs amazing and you should look into it Excellent! I went to Dharma Punx there one time, and definitely liked that. It kills me that, apparently, I just missed Brad Warner a week or two ago.  Anyways, I'll definitely check it out!
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Sep 17, 2014 10:20
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I think everyone goes through the "trying to understand everything" phase. Just keep on practicing. It passes. Then it comes back. Then it passes again. Like everything else, ahah ! The thirst for truth is a really good thing for practice, which is paradoxical because practice is there to end suffering, and most of our suffering is due to wanting to know and perfectly grasp everything we meet, ultimately, completely, etc. Don't struggle with the questions, leave them be. Or better, you can do as is done in a famous koan ; sadly i don't remember the details, but it's about turning questions into exclamation. Question : "Who am I ?" Answer : "Who am I !" From time to time, practice also has to do with becoming a living question, a living contradiction, and being ok with that.
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Sep 17, 2014 10:36
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I think casual books really bring Buddhism up to times, if you will. Newcomers would be far and few in between if all there was were ancient texts. Thich Nhat Hanh alone is responsible for bringing the Dharma to countless individuals, who without his books probably would never learn anything about Buddhism. I've always been interested in Buddhism, but his books are what really brought me in and even my girlfriend (who is a Christian) enjoys his writings. Most of his writings probably aren't studied in monasteries, his books are invaluable. You can almost feel his compassion radiating from the pages, and I think that makes many want to investigate further. The next book on my list to read is Walking an Uncommon Path. I have gotten much out of everyone of HH Drukpas' Youtube videos I have watched thus far, so I'm looking forward to this book. Welcome, discoukulele. You are fortunate to have some many locations near you! I myself and still struggling to make to a center, although I have decided which one interests me the most. Dr.Caligari fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Sep 17, 2014 |
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Sep 17, 2014 16:06
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Does anybody know of any resources, like books or dharma talks or what not, that talk about the sangha and the practitioner's relationship to it in more detail? This is something that I've realized I should probably pour more conscious thought and care into, and I'd love some guidance and ideas on this topic.
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Sep 18, 2014 18:07
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The Dark Wind posted:Does anybody know of any resources, like books or dharma talks or what not, that talk about the sangha and the practitioner's relationship to it in more detail? This is something that I've realized I should probably pour more conscious thought and care into, and I'd love some guidance and ideas on this topic. http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/x/nav/group.html_1305527811.html That's one of the better things on the subject I've ever run into.
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Sep 18, 2014 23:38
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Continuing on the news about the issues between the Drukpa and Karma Kagyu schools, holiness Drukpa has appealed to the Indian government for relief, while the Karmapa's office denies involvement. I suspect that the Karmapa is not responsible. It remains unknown what the Chinese agenda is here. http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/Tibetan-Buddhist-Sect-Seeks-Indian-Intervention/2014/09/18/article2436748.ece Paramemetic fucked around with this message at 11:38 on Sep 19, 2014 |
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Sep 19, 2014 11:35
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Thich Nhat Hanh's organization released a re-translation of the Heart Sutra that he recently completed, it is available here: http://plumvillage.org/news/thich-nhat-hanh-new-heart-sutra-translation/ I thought the attached article was a good read. I am just posting this for informational purposes. No personal anecdote, no message. I just think the Heart Sutra is important.
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Sep 22, 2014 17:57
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Paramemetic posted:I was thinking of getting Holiness Drukpa's books "Everyday Enlightenment" and his new one, "Happiness is a State of Mind," Did you get these in the end? How were they? I've been getting an itch to read something like those too now. If you did find them useful, which would you recommend starting with? And am I right in assuming they're kind of secular? By that I mean a self help book aligned with Buddhist philosophy rather than pushing the more "religious" aspects like rebirth or whatever.
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Sep 22, 2014 18:09
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Crack posted:Did you get these in the end? How were they? I've been getting an itch to read something like those too now. If you did find them useful, which would you recommend starting with? I haven't gotten them yet, as I'm still working my way through Walking an Uncommon Path, which I highly, highly recommend. I mainly read between calls at work (EMT) so I do not slam out books very quickly, and in fact I haven't really finished reading a book in years, but this book has been excellent. Holiness Drukpa is very informal and casual, but I wouldn't call him secular. He is traditionally educated as a monk, but eschews an academic approach in favor of a more practical approach to practicing Buddhism. He isn't quite secular, but he really embraces Ri Me and not only for within Buddhist traditions, in Walking an Uncommon Path he rails against religion in favor of spirituality, endorsing religion as a means towards spiritual understanding only, and not an end in itself, but he includes Jesus, Mohammed, and so on as great teachers and strongly urges that he doesn't really care if a person is self-described as Buddhist or not, if they're skillfully practicing a spiritual path, since all labels (including "spiritual practitioner" and so on) are just traps that form attachments. So "secular" doesn't quite work, but open and not very strict does. Again in this book at one point he talks about not wanting anyone to do anything just because someone says so. He says for example that he is very sure his disciples would become vegetarians immediately if he said they must, but instead he'd rather them do it if they want to, and don't do it if they don't want to, because that kind of thing should come from genuine spiritual understanding, not from religious mandates. I am definitely going to get these books, but can't review them at this point. I think though that I would be fairly surprised if Holiness promoted a metaphysical belief like that in particular as very important, he does not seem one to get caught up in the particulars of the trappings of belief so long as one is living spiritually. On a separate note, it is absolutely amazing to me how fully devoted and just really enamored with a person one can become when they encounter a spiritual teacher like Holiness Drukpa. I cannot get enough of anything this man says, and everything I read or watch of his resonates so deeply with me that I can't help but be overtaken simultaneously by joy and awe. I really have no doubt that I have studied his teachings for many lifetimes, and I am planning to attend one of his walking eco-pilgrimages in the next two years. Incidentally, he is a huge environmental activist, and really puts a lot of things into action rather than focusing on the academic study, which is hugely appealing for me. Hell, I've quoted his book to some regulars in this thread who know me well just because I feel like things he says in this book are so close to things I'd said or believed before I even knew he existed that it's just eerie to me. Basically 
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Sep 22, 2014 18:27
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I went ahead and bought Walking an Uncommon Path. It's fair to say it was your over HH Drupka in this thread that prompted me to pick up one of his books. I agree with him on spirituality though, it's much more powerful to develop your own morals or whatever based on understanding than being told "if you kill you'll go to hell" or "be reborn as a louse" and I guess you'd be a lot more confident in your actions.
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Sep 22, 2014 23:25
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I forgot to mention and so hope you bought it on Google books or from Drukpa Publications since the one for sale on Amazon is priced about 10x higher.
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Sep 22, 2014 23:46
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Hey guys, what do y'all make of Reginald Ray? I've been listening to his podcasts, going through some of his audio programs and books and absolutely love what he says, and I feel a really strong connection to him. I'm considering taking a winter dathun with him in Colorado later this year.
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Oct 4, 2014 07:30
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I think he seems like a good guy, I've never been to any of his events or been to Dharma Ocean or anything. He's got a storied history with Shambhala, Naropa, and Chogyam Trungpa though, which isn't exactly a checkered past, but it might help to understand where he's came from to see why he teaches Vajrayana over anything else. Also I could have sworn I've seen someone on these forums who worked for Dharma Ocean, and I think that's how I found out about Reggie Ray, but I knew about Naropa long before. And Colorado is nice so you can't go wrong visiting the place for a retreat. It's in Southern Colorado and their admin office is in Boulder.
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Oct 4, 2014 20:11
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Yeah, I am totally unfamiliar with him, but Shambhala is legit, if a little unorthodox, and I wouldn't consider being a student of Chogyam Trungpa's a problem, but depending on to what degree he has adopted Trungpa's methods, it may be odd. My understanding with Trungpa though is that while he definitely demonstrated crazy wisdom, he did a good job of not misleading his disciples into thinking that "gently caress it do what I want" is something that works for everyone, which is the usual trap that people fall into following that kind of guru.
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Oct 6, 2014 02:17
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Reginald Ray is/was the teacher of Shadowstar if i'm not mistaken, a goon who posted a lot in buddhism thread a few threads ago.
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Oct 6, 2014 13:21
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Thanks guys, I'm definitely gonna go ahead with this retreat, finances permitting. I've had nothing but great experiences with Shambhala before, and I like Trungpa's teachings a lot, even if he is quite the controversial figure. From what I've seen and heard of Ray, he seems great at being able to separate tradition/cultural trappings from teachings and present them in as pure a way as possible, while including his somatic meditation message. I really feel a strong connection to him as a teacher, and when I see Paramemetic talk about H.H. the Gyalwang Drukap I can't help but have similar feelings about Reggie Ray. Lots of texts that I've been reading lately have been stressing the importance of finding a teacher/spiritual friend that you feel a strong connection to, and this feels like something I really need to explore. On a completely unrelated note, how have you guys dealt with the presence of doubt on the path? I understand that in Zen, for example, they emphasize "great faith, great doubt, and great effort." I'm wondering if any of you guys had, for example, moments of sitting in a retreat where you thought "What the gently caress am I doing" and how you processed that afterwards. In general there is this intuitive sense that all this practice and reading is leading somewhere positive and that it's completely worth the effort, but there are definitely times where I'm struck by sensations not dissimilar from an existential crisis of sorts. Have any of you guys ever dealt with anything like that before? Doubts about the spiritual path itself?
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Oct 6, 2014 16:33
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The Dark Wind posted:On a completely unrelated note, how have you guys dealt with the presence of doubt on the path? I understand that in Zen, for example, they emphasize "great faith, great doubt, and great effort." I'm wondering if any of you guys had, for example, moments of sitting in a retreat where you thought "What the gently caress am I doing" and how you processed that afterwards. In general there is this intuitive sense that all this practice and reading is leading somewhere positive and that it's completely worth the effort, but there are definitely times where I'm struck by sensations not dissimilar from an existential crisis of sorts. Have any of you guys ever dealt with anything like that before? Doubts about the spiritual path itself? I think it's natural for doubt to arise and it's even important for this to happen. I think in fact that it's a large part of the retreat experience. Dudes who do the 3 month Ngondro retreat formally in the East often have doubt about what they're doing and what they're doing it for, I'm told, but working through this purifies the karma and obscurations that arise that doubt. Doubt comes from uncertainty, after all, and there's much to be uncertain about! One thing that has helped me is realizing that it doesn't really matter. A sort of Pascal's Wager, I suppose. But yeah, there are times when I've had sort of dark periods where I have stopped doing all but the barest minimum practices, just tending a shrine in the morning and some prostrations. Everything else was just "gently caress it," and I felt generally darker and uninspired. But by continuing my practice through that, and then eventually doing some other practices, at the end of it I feel like I've developed because of it. Everything, including our doubt and cynicism about the path, arises from our karma. It's important to not get attached to results I think, and to just be honest about everything. Phakchok Rinpoche posted on Facebook recently Kyabgon Phakchok Rinpoche posted:My friends, we all need to learn to hang loose and relax. You can't be an uptight, judgmental, perfectionist and have a genuine spiritual practice. All of the great yogis of the past have had a LOT of problems, but their problems weren't a problem because they weren't uptight. Relax, hang loose, enjoy your life. I think this is important. And when we do that, it's less of a problem. Another thing that was really inspirational to me in this regard was one time when I was looking at a promotion at work. I was going to be moving to a very stressful position with lots of overtime but good opportunities to benefit sentient beings. I asked Khenpo if I should apply for that position, or for another simpler one that paid less but which I would like more. He told me basically two things. One was that if I take a difficult stressful job, this will likely leave me more stressed and less able to practice, and this is very true. Even now, I've been working a lot of overtime and such, and when you are totally spent on your days off it's harder to motivate to practice. The other thing that is more pertinent is that he told me that I should also take care of myself and my family, and I don't have to be a great bodhisattva right now, or in this lifetime. I can be a just okay bodhisattva in this lifetime. Think of all the limitless lives we've been in this samsara, with every sentient being having been our mother at some point. If we don't attain in this lifetime, that's okay, if we benefit sentient beings and bring happiness to other sentient beings, then that's good, and we are establishing the karma of our future lives right now. Even if you have just a terrible lovely rebirth, and you're a butcher or something, benefit sentient beings as best you can based on your capacity, and you're planting the seed that will fruit into Buddhahood. If you take Refuge sincerely, this will help you as a practitioner, and it will plant a seed for future lives. I used to really criticize the Hinayana for being slow and I couldn't understand the mindset of practitioners who were content to live this life just to be a monk later just to be an Arhat in some future life. But now I have a much better understanding, and realize that impatience and thinking "I need to be a Buddha right now" is just more grasping, more afflictive behavior. So for now I will practice based on my ability based on my karma. This will help my practice in the future in this life and future lives. It's just like why we do the Ngondro, preliminary practices, in Vajrayana. First we do refuge 100000 times to establish a base, then we do 100000 Vajrasattva mantra recitations to purify and clear away past karma, then 100000 mandala offerings to establish a great store of merit to benefit all sentient beings, and then 100000 Guru yoga practices to establish our connection to a Guru. Then there's a special Bodhicitta practice! Then we're ready to practice the Tantra because until then, it's less likely to be fruitful. But back to the original point, yeah, I think getting discouraged happens just based on our karma and the fact that we have obscurations and obstacles. I mean, we get discouraged in other things, too, not just our spiritual path. But I think when we're discouraged in our spiritual path, we take it harder and we make it harder on ourselves, because we identify strongly with our spiritual path, and because it's really important! Like, I'm learning Tibetan and have hit some major snags and am just not really doing it very seriously right now, but I'm okay with that because it's just a side thing. But if we're not practicing then we like to make ourselves feel really badly like "oh I'm so bad a practitioner I'm the worst." And that's not helpful, that's just more negative thinking. So the way I overcame that is to just to the bare minimum. Set up the shrine, do three prostrations, roll out. Before that I'd been doing the full set of opening practice prayers. But Khenpo-la told me to do those prostrations, so I'm doing them, and I just kept doing them even though it was the barest minimum. Then eventually I just plowed through that doubt. I also used to be very upset because Khenpo would not strictly just tell me "hey do this thing daily" where I would say "okay" and then would do it because I told him I would. I really wanted him to just give me the instruction to do it. But then, reading Holiness' book, I realized that if he'd done that and I'd followed, it wouldn't really be authentic, it would just be religious devotion, not any kind of spiritual development. But that's a different topic I think, and this is enough gossip from me anyhow.
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Oct 6, 2014 17:13
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Thanks for that post Paramemetic! I really appreciate it. I think that, it's not that I've been feeling discouraged, but rather I've been putting in a TON of time and effort into meditation and reading lately and there's a part of me that's wondering if it's prudent to be dedicating pretty much all my spare time to practice. I don't mind it at all, in fact I love meditating so much and constantly being immersed in the practice, but there's a side of me that wonders whether I'm forsaking a more "complete" life, whatever that may mean. I still try to do things outside of practice in my spare time like go to concerts and hang out with friends and what not, but I just recently moved to NYC and have been going to a different meditation group almost every night. That part of me is wondering if instead, maybe I should pick up a couple of more hobbies so I don't become some hyper meditation-obsessed individual and fall out of balance, so to speak. Perhaps that's an irrational fear, but it's something that's been bubbling up the last couple of days. I definitely appreciate the reminder that doubt is a common factor and not something that I should stress myself out over too much, and to just relax and not be too uptight every once in a while.
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Oct 6, 2014 17:23
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The Dark Wind posted:Thanks guys, I'm definitely gonna go ahead with this retreat, finances permitting. I've had nothing but great experiences with Shambhala before, and I like Trungpa's teachings a lot, even if he is quite the controversial figure. Reggie Ray is not a Shambhala teacher. In fact, he split from the Shambhala lineage some years ago and leads a group called Ocean of Dharma. I was similarly impressed by him listening to podcasts and reading one of his books, so asked a senior teacher in the Shambhala lineage what their take on him was. "Arrogant" was the reply. The teacher went on to say that Reggie has some degree of realization and apparently can manufacture a sense of profound connection with students during interviews post-meditation, but warned me not to get too close. I encourage you to investigate for yourself. Go on retreat if the finances work out, but be aware. Don't confuse Reggie Ray's teachings for those of the Sakyong's or Shambhala. He left Shambhala and is teaching as an individual claiming to be the authentic continuation of the Vidyadhara's lineage. In no way am I claiming to be an authority or trying to gossip here, I just wanted to repeat the information I was given when I asked a few questions and I hope it is helpful. The Dark Wind posted:I just recently moved to NYC and have been going to a different meditation group almost every night. Dude, I'm moving to NYC in a couple of weeks. I'd love to pick your brain about the different groups you've sat with. During previous visits, I sat with the Dharma Punx and enjoy that group. I also have sat with Shambhala people from NYC, they're great. Leon Sumbitches fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Oct 6, 2014 |
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Oct 6, 2014 17:27
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The Dark Wind posted:
practice doesn't lead anywhere, it literally doesn't lead anywhere. doubt is the other side of the thinking that if you follow someone else's instructions you will get what you want. And as long as you are following someone else's instructions you are doing literally nothing different than if you never considered practice in the first place. The doubt/reassurance game can go on for infinity. There is no culmination to the practice you are doubting, doubt is itself the thing. There is no path and also the doubt, there's only the doubt. Not saying this as something everyone would tell you but maybe it is something everyone should tell themselves, that's what I think. edit - This isn't to say anything at all about certainty. I know nothing about that. the worst thing is fucked around with this message at 17:48 on Oct 6, 2014 |
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Oct 6, 2014 17:29
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Paramemetic posted:Yeah, I am totally unfamiliar with him, but Shambhala is legit, if a little unorthodox, and I wouldn't consider being a student of Chogyam Trungpa's a problem, but depending on to what degree he has adopted Trungpa's methods, it may be odd. My understanding with Trungpa though is that while he definitely demonstrated crazy wisdom, he did a good job of not misleading his disciples into thinking that "gently caress it do what I want" is something that works for everyone, which is the usual trap that people fall into following that kind of guru. I'm saying the following as someone who's parents were very involved with Chogyam Trungpa for a long time, and grew up in the Shambhala community (I've moved on to other teachers ATM): Trungpa did some very, very wild things. Some of his students asked him about it, and he told them all that if they lived like him, they would be dead within the course of a few years. Some took that to heart and have learned to fold in the teachings without emulating his behavior. Others have not. Max fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Oct 6, 2014 |
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Oct 6, 2014 17:48
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