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So Ten seems to know Clover, well enough that not being trusted by her hurts, but she doesn't recognize him for some reason. Furthermore, he's able to reveal something to her that causes her to trust him implicitly. He also knows about ALL-ICE. This probably has something to do with those cryo pods. And Dio has a thing for Luna. Hmm... GilliamYaeger fucked around with this message at 04:07 on Feb 11, 2014 |
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Feb 11, 2014 04:00
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Even coming from 999 and its weirdness, this scene really got to me. People may not like her, but Alice sure has a lot of mindblowing scenes attached to her!
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Feb 11, 2014 04:02
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Oh god. An entire game full of morphogenetic field-assessing peeps. No wonder the cause-and-effect is so screwy! Wonder what the hell is going on between Tenmyouji and Clover? Could that old lady be... nah, impossible. Wait, if time-travelling and cloning shenanigans are involved, could Tenmyouji be the older version of one of the characters in the cast, like Quark?
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Feb 11, 2014 04:05
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xxlicious posted:Oh god. An entire game full of morphogenetic field-assessing peeps. No wonder the cause-and-effect is so screwy! Wonder what the hell is going on between Tenmyouji and Clover? Could that old lady be... nah, impossible. This makes me think that Quark is DEFINITELY a clone of someone.
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Feb 11, 2014 04:20
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Why limit yourself to VLR's cast? Maybe Tenmyouji and Phi are both evil(er), slightly altered clones of Santa! Don't you see the resemblance? You know, white hair, general unfriendliness, stuck in a stupid 9-man game of number bracelets and death?
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Feb 11, 2014 04:36
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xxlicious posted:Oh god. An entire game full of morphogenetic field-assessing peeps. No wonder the cause-and-effect is so screwy! Wonder what the hell is going on between Tenmyouji and Clover? Could that old lady be... nah, impossible. Color Printer posted:......how is this confirmed, exactly?
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Feb 11, 2014 04:39
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Am I the only person who finds all this morphogenic field stuff to be the least interesting part of these games? I seriously love the premise of these games, but the fact that the mystery always comes down to the anime equivalent of "a wizard did it" makes everything else in the game less interesting and significant retroactively.
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Feb 11, 2014 04:44
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Color Printer posted:......how is this confirmed, exactly? Well Quark with the whole 'everybody's going to die' thing, and it seemed like Ten was tapping into some other timeline just now where he and Clover were a lot closer/more trusting of each other. edit: new page 
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Feb 11, 2014 04:54
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Zoe posted:Well Quark with the whole 'everybody's going to die' thing, and it seemed like Ten was tapping into some other timeline just now where he and Clover were a lot closer/more trusting of each other. There was something going on between Ten and Clover in the Magenta branch as well.
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Feb 11, 2014 04:55
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Guest posted:Am I the only person who finds all this morphogenic field stuff to be the least interesting part of these games? I seriously love the premise of these games, but the fact that the mystery always comes down to the anime equivalent of "a wizard did it" makes everything else in the game less interesting and significant retroactively. No, you're not alone. I also don't really like that part, and find that it detracts from a pretty interesting story. It has such wonderfully undefined "do anything the writers want" rules.
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Feb 11, 2014 05:35
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The whole idea of a moving perspective outside of the events is central to the entire thing, though? I don't see how you'd have anything approaching what the game is without it.
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Feb 11, 2014 05:38
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If you pick Betray first then go back and Ally, do you get the same rock-paper-scissors section on the Ally side? Or something else?
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Feb 11, 2014 05:39
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PlaceholderPigeon posted:If you pick Betray first then go back and Ally, do you get the same rock-paper-scissors section on the Ally side? Or something else? The latter. In that version of the scene, Phi and Alice have a brief bonding moment over Sigma's stupidity but that's it. It's much shorter than the rock-paper-scissors thing we got here.
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Feb 11, 2014 06:02
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flatluigi posted:The whole idea of a moving perspective outside of the events is central to the entire thing, though? I don't see how you'd have anything approaching what the game is without it. I don't think so. The central premise of this game is that it's a murder mystery about people who have been abducted and forced to play a demented game where their own lives are on the line. That the player can go back and pick different options to see events playing out differently is just a game play mechanic, it doesn't need to be given a narrative explanation. It's like how nobody explains why your health regenerates in Modern Warfare.
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Feb 11, 2014 06:04
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Guest posted:I don't think so. The central premise of this game is that it's a murder mystery about people who have been abducted and forced to play a demented game where their own lives are on the line. That the player can go back and pick different options to see events playing out differently is just a game play mechanic, it doesn't need to be given a narrative explanation. It's like how nobody explains why your health regenerates in Modern Warfare. That feels a bit too much like a simplification of the premise to me. Or rather, you're not considering the fact that VLR was made and designed to be a sequel to 999. If this was a standalone game, you would have a point, because 999's central premise was that exactly, 'a murder mystery about people who have been abducted' etc. People who bought VLR are expected to be familiar with the pseudo-science that 999 used for its ending, which allows them to bring up said pseudo-science faster and make it a vital part of the plot, as opposed to 999's usage thereof as a climatic twist. See the previous scene we just got through, which could be done as early as the second playthrough.
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Feb 11, 2014 06:14
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Guest posted:I don't think so. The central premise of this game is that it's a murder mystery about people who have been abducted and forced to play a demented game where their own lives are on the line. That the player can go back and pick different options to see events playing out differently is just a game play mechanic, it doesn't need to be given a narrative explanation. It's like how nobody explains why your health regenerates in Modern Warfare. No, that's what you want the central premise to be. There's a difference. 999 and VLR are science fiction games disguised as a different genre. It's what they were always intended to be, and it's what a lot of people like about them. I'm not saying you have to enjoy the science fiction elements if that's not your thing, but to say that it's just a game play mechanic is just wrong when the mechanic is completely integrated into the story they're telling. I think it's really cool how they take a multi-path visual novel gameplay mechanic that usually exists without explanation or role in the story, and turn it into something that's very much a part of the story being told. Regy Rusty fucked around with this message at 06:17 on Feb 11, 2014 |
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Feb 11, 2014 06:15
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If the creator of this game played Modern Warfare, he would totally make a game explaining why health mysteriously regenerates in Modern Warfare. That's his entire shtick, after all. He really, really, really, really likes playing with the meta aspect of choices and savescumming and branching in visual novels. That's the whole point of all his games.
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Feb 11, 2014 06:19
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slowbeef posted:Same. (well, I think you mean first two paths) This is what I was talking about in Retsutalk when I talked about VLR with Betus and Psychedelic Eyeball. Which ep is this? I wouldn't mind hearing you talk about it.
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Feb 11, 2014 06:52
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KamikazePotato posted:Even coming from 999 and its weirdness, this scene really got to me. People may not like her, but Alice sure has a lot of mindblowing scenes attached to her! I'm guessing it's because players coming over from 999 would be most likely to see what the gently caress the deal is with her first and foremost.
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Feb 11, 2014 06:59
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I don't see how Morphogenetic field is the same thing as "a wizard did it". The game clearly explains what it is and how it works, or at least 999 did. It's an extension of the idea of quantum entanglement, mixed with a couple other ideas.
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Feb 11, 2014 08:59
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Regy Rusty posted:No, that's what you want the central premise to be. There's a difference. 999 and VLR are science fiction games disguised as a different genre. It's what they were always intended to be, and it's what a lot of people like about them. I suppose that's fair, but I stand by my comment that it's dumb bullshit that detracts from the more interesting aspects of the game. Spatula City posted:I don't see how Morphogenetic field is the same thing as "a wizard did it". The game clearly explains what it is and how it works, or at least 999 did. It's an extension of the idea of quantum entanglement, mixed with a couple other ideas. In 999 the morphogenic field stuff came out of loving no where midway through the game, which up until that point had been a murder mystery. It's convoluted as hell and allowed them to wash their hands of having to come up with a satisfying answer to all the questions that had been raised until that point. Guest fucked around with this message at 09:06 on Feb 11, 2014 |
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Feb 11, 2014 09:03
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Guest posted:I suppose that's fair, but I stand by my comment that it's dumb bullshit that detracts from the more interesting aspects of the game. The idea of morphogenic fields gets brought up super early in 999. Like literally in the first set of real puzzle rooms with June, Santa, and Lotus. Lotus gives a whole lesson on Sheldrake and telepathic communication. Seven does something similar behind Door 7. Morphogenetic field talk was all over 999, I've never gotten where people think it came out of no where. The only thing that was different in the ending was that they added the time travel wrinkle.
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Feb 11, 2014 09:16
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Guest posted:In 999 the morphogenic field stuff came out of loving no where midway through the game, which up until that point had been a murder mystery. It's convoluted as hell and allowed them to wash their hands of having to come up with a satisfying answer to all the questions that had been raised until that point. Except that the mystery exists only to service the morphogenetic field concept in the first place. It's not like they invented that solution out of nowhere. They created the mystery intending to use that solution from the very start. In fact, forget the scifi babble, that's just how they justify the whole "the protagonist can use information from other playthroughs" premise. It's about explicitly making this a thing and saying "now what can we do with this conceit"? It's just that VLR plays with this conceit far more thoroughly than 999 did. Really, this might not be the game for you. You might perhaps find Higurashi no Naku Koro ni (When the Cicadas Cry) and Umineko no Naku Koro ni (When the Seagulls Cry) more to your tastes. Perhaps. From what I've seen, they're more straight up mysteries than the No Escape series anyways.
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Feb 11, 2014 09:33
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The mystery in these games is usually finding out who's masterminding the whole thing and not so much finding out the murderer who killed X. I mean in 999 the only legitimate murders were the 9th man and Snake imposter, one of them died via bomb and it was accepted among the cast as part of the rules. When Snake imposter died the first question was "who pushed him in through the door" but it eventually came out that it wasn't Snake at all, but another of the Cradle dudes, and in the end it was explained as being an outright murder executed by Zero/Santa for revenge's sake. The other "murders" were bad endings, and everyone knew it was Clover or Ace, and Junpei usually died soon after so it didn't really matter and they weren't valid. So the "murder mysteries" are inconsequential as the greater part of the endgame story unravels. It plays more of a role in this game, obviously, but it's certainly not the selling point and usually ancillary to further push the morphogenetic field theory to validate the game mechanic (which is cool as hell for a visual novel type game actually). edit: Laugh to your heart's content but if you want anime murder mystery then check out Dangan Ronpa.  edit2: I forgot about the captain in 999. That ended up being Zero too. It was a mystery for all of maybe one hour I think? HoneyBoy fucked around with this message at 10:00 on Feb 11, 2014 |
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Feb 11, 2014 09:55
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Yeah 999 was never a good old murder mystery.
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Feb 11, 2014 11:23
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Color Printer posted:......how is this confirmed, exactly? I wouldn't say confirmed, but I think Quark and Dio's vote might point to kid's ability to access the morphogenetic field. In the two previous paths we've seen them vote betray and accuse each other. Here they vote Ally, and the way Dio acts makes it pretty clear that it wasn't his intention. My theory is that Quark gets a premonition that Dio's going to be a dick, and votes before the douchebag can do anything.
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Feb 11, 2014 11:43
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Guest posted:
So what you're saying is that VLR is Lost in anime video game form? I doubt there are many people who played VLR without playing 999 first, so in VLR, morphogenic fields shouldn't come as a shock. In fact, I'd be more shocked if they weren't in VLR especially as Clover's here. And that makes me think the big science thing in this one is something far more esoteric. Actually speaking of Clover's ability to delve into the field, has she sent out a distress signal to Snake? I loved Snake so much, I desperately want him to turn up and save the day again.
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Feb 11, 2014 12:03
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By the way, isn't Radical-6 just like a reverse Gold Experience punch ?
Ledgy fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Feb 11, 2014 |
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Feb 11, 2014 12:41
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legendsuper posted:By the way, isn't Radical-9 just like a reverse Gold Experience punch ? Radical-6, and yes, it has been described as "sensory input on fast-forward."
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Feb 11, 2014 12:51
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PlaceholderPigeon posted:If you pick Betray first then go back and Ally, do you get the same rock-paper-scissors section on the Ally side? Or something else? Betray: Sigma and Phi get slapped, no RPS Ally: "We're fine, I'm sure she picked Ally. WHAT THE HELL", no RPS Betray: See last update So yeah, you get new dialogue thrice if you pick Betray first. I don't think there's anything new if we picked Ally now though. Kaja Rainbow posted:Really, this might not be the game for you. You might perhaps find Higurashi no Naku Koro ni (When the Cicadas Cry) and Umineko no Naku Koro ni (When the Seagulls Cry) more to your tastes. Perhaps. From what I've seen, they're more straight up mysteries than the No Escape series anyways. No, they're not. I don't want to spoil anything about either one, but unless they're willing to stretch their concept of a mystery to around the same levels as VLR (or even further in a certain sense), a diehard fan of regular old murder mysteries would not like either one. They're both pretty good VNs. It's just that if you think VLR has a bad case of "a wizard did it" and that it ruins the story (neither of which I think it does), don't even try either. tiistai fucked around with this message at 13:29 on Feb 11, 2014 |
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Feb 11, 2014 13:27
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Zoe posted:So Phi, Sigma, Quark, Clover, and now Ten all confirmed for being able to access the morphogenetic field. Wouldn't be surprised if Alice, K, and Dio turn out the same, so I think we finally have the thing that connects them all and is probably their reason for being targeted by Zero. Alice's ability to access the field seems obvious, though. Now that we've already played through a scenario where we pick 'ally,' Alice gets some premonition of this, thinks she knows what to expect and picks 'ally' instead of betray. might be wrong fucked around with this message at 13:45 on Feb 11, 2014 |
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Feb 11, 2014 13:41
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 One of the great unsolved mysteries of the universe is exactly how much of Virtue's Last Reward's dialogue is dynamically altered by the order in which you play paths. As I'm sure we're all realizing, this is a story experience shaped as much by the order of events as the events themselves, where the way you progress through the flowchart and what you know colours what you see. We're discovering a meta-narrative, with meta-twists, of which the first is our gradual realization that jumping around in the flowchart is not just a videogame contrivance; it's a plot point. This is what Uchikoshi does. But I digress. As I was saying, there are bits in this game that are static, and bits that change depending on order, and at times it is most unclear which is which. This is mostly because of the combined effect of two things: First, there is as of yet no way to obtain text dumps from 3DS/Vita games. Perhaps this will change in time, but not yet. Second, actually experimenting with playthroughs of this game is extremely arduous. It just takes too long once you pass a certain depth on the flowchart and depending on the distance betweeen points you want to compare. And you can't use fastforward because testing for first-time-through exclusive states by definition requires a fresh save. Fortunately, the particular part of the game we've just seen is relatively early on, and it turns out helpful forums poster Admiral H. Curtiss had a stereo-out cable and some time on his hands, so here we are; some alternate dialogue! I took the liberty of pasting in my usual talking heads and guessing at who had what expression on when. And all the voice clips are included because a) Siggyyyyyyyyy! and b) Tara Platt actually gets a bit angry here. Cool as this is, don't expect this to become a habit; it gets increasingly more of a pain the further we play. But for now, enjoy. --- First off, betraying Alice the first time through: Listen in: [English]  I... did the right thing, right?  What do you mean? You know what I mean. You were right there. You watched me choose "betray".  Oh... Well, what choice did you have? That's the kind of game this is. ...  Yo! Wasssuuuuuuuup? Siggyyyyyyyyy! Phidooooo! Hey! What're you kids doing over there!  We're about to announce the results! Let's go. We'll find out if you made the right choice. All right. [results] Listen in (really recommended): [English] *slap* *slap* Ouch...  Huh... That was quite a smack.  What the hell is wrong with you?! Don't you realize what you've done?! Of course. We chose "betray". Hence the slaps. Right? *slap* *slap* Come on now, I think once was enough. A thousand times wouldn't be enough! I don't think you understand just how bad this is! I'm sorry... This isn't the kind of thing you can just apologize for! Then...what am I supposed to do? The fact that you're even asking that question is insane! How stupid are you...? ...  Alice, why did you choose "ally"? Can you even hear yourself? It's almost like you're saying I'm the idiot for choosing "ally"! We didn't say that...  Haven't you ever heard of the prisoner's dilemma?! ... ... We have. Then why, for gently caress's sake, did you choose "betray"?! We all get out of here the quickest if everyone chooses "ally". Any idiot can see that! So... why did you...? ... ... I'm sorry... Really, I feel terrible. So-- Forget it. I'm never going to trust you or Phi again. You'll pay for this. Okay then, let's go back and ally with her! [boo-eee-oop!] Listen in: [English]  What the hell were you thinking? Did you hear anything I said? Yeah, I was, and yeah, I did. That's why I chose "ally". You told me that unless we were sure Alice would choose "ally" we had to vote "betray". That means that if we do know Alice is going to pick "ally". we can too. So you're sure you know what she voted? Yeah. I guarantee Alice chose "ally." How do you know that...? ... ... I guess you could say I just know. You making fun of me? Maybe. ... Yo! Wasssuuuuuuuup? Siggyyyyyyyyy! Phidooooo! Hey! What're you kids doing over there! We're about to announce the results! Let's go. We'll find out if you made the right choice. All right. [results] Listen in: [English] Hey! Alice! What the hell is this?!  Excuse me?  I just made the most rational choice. The best way to minimize risk and maximize reward in this situation is to choose "betray". Anyone who thinks otherwise is... well... An idiot. But last time you chose "ally" for this round! So...I was sure you'd... That's why I... No... Why...  W-Wait a minute... Last time? What on Earth are you talking about? ... I thought you said you were sure. ... Thanks to you, now our BP is down to 1. ... I take it Sigma was the one who made the decision? Yeah. Is that so. Well, he must be awfully naive. Who bets on a complete stranger like that? I agree. ... Goddammit... Fedule fucked around with this message at 21:00 on Mar 1, 2014 |
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Feb 11, 2014 13:52
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Thanks Fedule and Admiral Curtiss. That was pretty cool. Though I'm guessing Alice getting mad isn't going to do much to endear her to the folks who already dislike her.
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Feb 11, 2014 14:30
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Neat! it's nice that they set it up to work both ways, but I like the way Ally -> Betray flows more than Betray -> Ally.
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Feb 11, 2014 14:52
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Gandalf21 posted:Morphogenetic field talk was all over 999, I've never gotten where people think it came out of no where. The only thing that was different in the ending was that they added the time travel wrinkle. Uh, that's kinda a big deal and it does violate all the pre-established 'rules' 999 had established up to that point, and I contend that it DOES take into "a wizard did it" levels, because it's incredibly powerful, breaks causality via time-travel, and whether or not it works in any given situation depends on whether the writers want it to work. If we were to go back and play the Laboratory path now, would Sigma get a flash and realize that handing the Axelevir bottle to Dio would be a bad move and not do it? I doubt it. Stabbey_the_Clown fucked around with this message at 14:56 on Feb 11, 2014 |
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Feb 11, 2014 14:54
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 Okay, Sigma and Phi being smug little fucks in the slap sequence was 100% hilarious and worth the inevitable ensuing clusterfuck of betrayal.
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Feb 11, 2014 15:11
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Alice: a study in hypocrisy. You know what? The sob story does even less for me now. Onwards with loving the stripper up! (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 11, 2014 15:24
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Suspicion over Quark for stopping Dio from betraying but nothing on Alice's superhuman ability to never look like the bad guy? Stabbey_the_Clown posted:[...]and whether or not it works in any given situation depends on whether the writers want it to work.
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Feb 11, 2014 15:33
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Aumanor posted:Alice: a study in hypocrisy. You know what? The sob story does even less for me now. Onwards with loving the stripper up! I think strippers need like a shirt to take off first.
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Feb 11, 2014 16:00
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Aumanor posted:Onwards with loving the stripper up! drat, dude. I hate Alice and all too, but you're still creeping me out.
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Feb 11, 2014 16:00
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