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pospysyl posted:It's not that manses make demesnes less magical, it's that they irrevocably alter the powerful essence flows that influence that demesne. For instance, when building a water manse, you're going to have to alter the flow of that magical river, or maybe even dam it up. The people downriver who age much slower thanks to their magical drinking water are slowly going to die because you wanted a hearthstone. Your disruption of earth essence might trigger earthquakes somewhere else. The manse and hearthstone section of Oadenol's Codex was great in this regard, exposing the sheer scale of what geomancy actually is. Or your alteration of the river's magic makes it stop mutating the fish into freshwater amphibious sharks that prey on a nearby village, making it a safe and more prosperous place that, oh, hey, now also has a nearby manse with all the amenities such glorious structures can provide. The theme of irresponsibly affecting common people due to your grand schemes of power is one that belongs in Exalted, but needn't be awkwardly inserted into every instance of great magical deeds. Once in a while is enough. And, of course, any half-witted Exalt who discovers a river of Age-Staving Cordial is going to be too blinded by the big dollar-signs in their eyes to consider loving it up.
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Jun 1, 2013 01:58
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Seriously, one of the more tedious ideas that seems to have crept into Exalted since I was last involved in it is the idea that "Exalted irrevocably gently caress everything up forever and are also huge assholes, just don't touch anything in case you ruin in with your big clumsy fingers you rear end in a top hat." I mean sure, let incredible power have consequences if used irresponsibly, I'm down with that, but it'd be great if that wasn't wedged into every possible aspect of the game as humanly possible right down to "oh, and that sweet magic rock you have caused an earthquake that destroyed a village, hope your +2 to jump checks was worth it O Prince of the Earth."
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Jun 1, 2013 02:16
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Kai Tave posted:Seriously, one of the more tedious ideas that seems to have crept into Exalted since I was last involved in it is the idea that "Exalted irrevocably gently caress everything up forever and are also huge assholes, just don't touch anything in case you ruin in with your big clumsy fingers you rear end in a top hat." Yeah, it's this sort of writing that made the Thousand Streams River seem reasonable when taken at face value. Let's have more consequences flowing organically from your actions and less inherent defeatism, please.
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Jun 1, 2013 02:23
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Kai Tave posted:Seriously, one of the more tedious ideas that seems to have crept into Exalted since I was last involved in it is the idea that "Exalted irrevocably gently caress everything up forever and are also huge assholes, just don't touch anything in case you ruin in with your big clumsy fingers you rear end in a top hat." Yeah, there are enough dreary things in the setting without saying "Every time someone makes a manse, all the little forest creatures die and acid wells up from the ground, the Earth withers away, and everyone dies." Yu-Shan is entirely covered with manses and it's reportedly a pretty chill place to live, but forget lore reasons; It's dumb because "Human attempts to master the untamed wilds always have big negative drawbacks" is a Werewolf thing that Exalted games shouldn't shoehorn in by default. It would be cool to have a one-off story where dismantling the Manse of a big jerk would create acres and acres of arable land, and the PCs could send up a Martial Arts Dojo in the ruins, but it should be equally valid that your manse channels raging underground water energy into creating an oasis that can feed thousands in the middle of the desert. In my opinion, a pretty big theme of Exalted is that power is eternal, and its ultimate consequences can only be determined by the character of she who wields it. Having manses categorically be a black stain on the environment in a way I would find highly obnoxious. That said, I wouldn't mind using "defective/thoughtlessly-placed manse is harming the majority of the area's residents" as a plot now and again.
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Jun 1, 2013 02:27
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Sure! I'm all for the idea that manses can be bad for the local environment if build incorrectly/selfishly, or if they've fallen into disrepair over the centuries and become broken and corrupted and need to be fixed (hint hint). But I would find it rather annoying if the writers laid it out that "well sure you can have a magic rock for your kickass sword if, y'know, you don't mind being a callous monster for your jump bonus, your move Exalts  "
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Jun 1, 2013 02:36
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I think it's completely fair and reasonable to say that unless you are specifically using the power of your new Manse to benefit its surroundings (in addition to other effects or not) then it just makes things shittier for the local peasants. Since when does snapping up resources to fight grand wars ever benefit the people living on top of those resources? If you want to be a just ruler you have to do things differently from the realm and the shogunate and the deliberative.
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Jun 1, 2013 02:37
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:I think it's completely fair and reasonable to say that unless you are specifically using the power of your new Manse to benefit its surroundings (in addition to other effects or not) then it just makes things shittier for the local peasants. Since when does snapping up resources to fight grand wars ever benefit the people living on top of those resources? If you want to be a just ruler you have to do things differently from the realm and the shogunate and the deliberative.
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Jun 1, 2013 02:40
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It's not like non-manseworthy areas in Creation are all barren, toxic shitholes either. I'm not really interested in the default tone of Exalted doing Exalted-y things being that of Dark Sun defilers. I think it should always be an option for an Exalt who really doesn't give a gently caress to magically strip-mine Bambi's secret glen in order to empower their magic glowstone, but unless they're specifically trying to squeeze every drop of juice out of the area I'd be happier with a default of "manses make things different, not worse."
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Jun 1, 2013 02:46
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I didn't mean to say that manses were always harmful and that this should be a firmly established setting truth, just that geomancy always has huge consequences that are difficult to predict. Those consequences should be a plot hook, and it's difficult to hook a plot on a positive. Of course, you could have such a mastery of geomancy that you can plan and create manses that create idyllic societies. That's well within Exalted themes too and an engaging story in its own right. There were several of those in Oadenol's Codex too. It was more a comment about scale and how to make manse creation really significant.
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Jun 1, 2013 02:53
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Who wouldn't try to extract every last drop of anything out of something? W-who would act so... sub optimally?!
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Jun 1, 2013 02:54
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Son, let me tell you a story about a certain goose...
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Jun 1, 2013 02:56
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Yeah, I love weird, unforeseen consequences and backfires when I undertake big projects. As a Storyteller I love throwing them at my players. Generally I prefer "poo poo gets weird" to "poo poo goes bad", because the latter usually ends up discouraging people from investing themselves into projects like that, which not only feels lovely, it also makes the game lamer as players hesitate to engage with it. Exalted shouldn't be making a normative moral claim about the use of power qua power. The whole point of the origin story of the Exalted, from the Primordial War up through the Usurpation, is that it contains both a titanic triumph in which tyrants are cast down from their thrones in Heaven by the champions of the gods, who usher in a (literally!) golden age, and a tyrannical, decadent horrorshow that people need to messily destroy and then they futilely struggle to hold together the pieces while everything slowly rots. The myth within the myth is where we learn the premise of the game: that both of these things are possible.
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Jun 1, 2013 02:57
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Some hope? John Morke: Re: Laughing Wounds Style: I plan not to do it, ever. Maybe he just got all the non-consensual BDSM in on other charms though.
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Jun 1, 2013 03:25
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Excelsiortothemax posted:Some hope?
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Jun 1, 2013 03:28
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BDSM-fu aside, I'm honestly surprised to see that some people are pushing for Dreaming Pearl Courtesan style to make a corebook appearance. That's the one where the ultimate technique is turning into a seahorse-monster, right? That one always made me wonder who in the world looked at that and went "Yes! Finally the answer to all my character creation prayers!"
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Jun 1, 2013 03:33
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Kai Tave posted:BDSM-fu aside, I'm honestly surprised to see that some people are pushing for Dreaming Pearl Courtesan style to make a corebook appearance. That's the one where the ultimate technique is turning into a seahorse-monster, right? That one always made me wonder who in the world looked at that and went "Yes! Finally the answer to all my character creation prayers!" Well, if you ignore that particular Charm, it's a fairly useful martial art for courtesans or scholars or basically anybody who wears scarves or long sleeves. Which is what I pretty much figure they'll do: remove the gazelle-carp, resulting in a broadly-applicable martial art for many character types, perfectly suitable for the corebook.
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Jun 1, 2013 03:35
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Rand Brittain posted:Well, if you ignore that particular Charm, it's a fairly useful martial art for courtesans or scholars or basically anybody who wears scarves or long sleeves. Noooo, not the gazellecarp! I love the gazellecarp! (Seriously I love the gazellecarp and I will make frowny-faces at Holden and John if DPC makes it into the core and the gazellecarp is gone. It's too bad Holden and John live like on the other side of a continent from me and they won't even be able to see those frowny-faces.)
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Jun 1, 2013 03:45
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Rand Brittain posted:Well, if you ignore that particular Charm, it's a fairly useful martial art for courtesans or scholars or basically anybody who wears scarves or long sleeves. That's what I could never figure out. It's like it started as "the soft martial art style for people with scarves or long sleeves" and sure, fine, I get that. I support that, even. But then it's like halfway through the process someone came up behind the guy writing it and said "you know what this needs? A charm that turns you into a freakish seahorse monster. No seriously, it makes perfect sense. Big ol' seahorse monster charm just rarin' to go. Because when players think silk scarf kung-fu they think seahorse monsters." And then for some reason the guy writing the charms said "okay." It's not bad so much as...really weird and out of place.
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Jun 1, 2013 03:50
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Sometimes you just have to say "gently caress you, this is happening" and randomly turn into an abomination against nature. It's not a good thing, it's not a bad thing. It's just what happens when people fight. I mean why would you even play Exalted if you were trying to take out all the things that would make rational activity pause in wonder, horror, and fascinated disgust at the sheer unbelievable scale of what you've just done? Turning into some sort of giraffe fish monster literally out of nowhere and without even the slightest hint that this was a thing you were building towards is exactly what your martial arts moves should do. Some dude attacks you with waves of flame from his swords, some dude splits the ground with a massive overhand hammer strike....you turn into the most baffling amalgam of animal parts in the history of time and sort of flounder and hoof it around everyone, creeping them way the gently caress out. Nobody is going to try to sing a ballad about that one, let me tell you.
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Jun 1, 2013 03:54
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Kai Tave posted:Sure! I'm all for the idea that manses can be bad for the local environment if build incorrectly/selfishly, or if they've fallen into disrepair over the centuries and become broken and corrupted and need to be fixed (hint hint). But I would find it rather annoying if the writers laid it out that "well sure you can have a magic rock for your kickass sword if, y'know, you don't mind being a callous monster for your jump bonus, your move Exalts It's a very high modern idea of wilderness/ecosystems that informs this imo. "Even in my fantasy world, I assume that everyone loves private property and forcing land to suit their whims. Even my imagination is American."
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Jun 1, 2013 04:08
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Mexcillent posted:It's a very Anglocentric idea of wilderness/ecosystems that informs this imo. "Even in my fantasy world, I assume that everyone loves private property and forcing land to suit their whims. Even my imagination is American."
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Jun 1, 2013 04:13
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Nessus posted:I believe the history of large-scale public works projects is significantly deeper than your summary indicates. My bad forgot China. Anyways, there's way more working with land and reshaping in non-horrifying tragic ways than there are total ecological nightmares all the time.
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Jun 1, 2013 04:17
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Mexcillent posted:My bad forgot China. I mean, we're talking about a setting that's basically Gordon Childe with more punching.
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Jun 1, 2013 04:25
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Oligopsony posted:Yeah, and Egypt and the Anasazi and the Soviets and Easter Island and Ancestral Puebloans (Anasazi) weren't that, though. Unless they caused climate change or Athabaskan migration. My point is that not all changes to an environment are catastrophic.
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Jun 1, 2013 04:27
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Mexcillent posted:Ancestral Puebloans (Anasazi) weren't that, though. Unless they caused climate change or Athabaskan migration.  I suppose we're agreeing in slightly different directions then.
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Jun 1, 2013 04:31
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Mexcillent posted:Ancestral Puebloans (Anasazi) weren't that, though. Unless they caused climate change or Athabaskan migration. quote:My point is that not all changes to an environment are catastrophic. Of course, it's also probably fair to say that the modern concepts of "nature" and "ecology" don't really exist in Creation. It's sociology all the way down.
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Jun 1, 2013 04:34
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Oligopsony posted:I think Exalted tends towards a romantic conservatism in being skeptical of Brilliant Plans to change complex systems around. Of course saying EVERY MANSE IS A DISASTER is really heavy-handed and would get dull after a while. AnCap romanticism is the last frontier to get over in making Exalted the best LLCO RPG on the market.
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Jun 1, 2013 04:35
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Mexcillent posted:AnCap romanticism is the last frontier to get over in making Exalted the best LLCO RPG on the market.
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Jun 1, 2013 04:45
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lmao now I'm imagining Alain Badiou as a Sidereal (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 1, 2013 04:46
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Consider also that real world landscaping projects were not planned and carried out by divinely empowered super-engineers.
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Jun 1, 2013 04:48
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A_Raving_Loon posted:Consider also that real world landscaping projects were not planned and carried out by divinely empowered super-engineers. Wow, someone's never read Rand.
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Jun 1, 2013 04:49
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I will never kung fu for another, nor ask another to kung fu for me.
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Jun 1, 2013 04:53
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Attorney at Funk posted:Wow, someone's never read Rand.
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Jun 1, 2013 04:55
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We've already talked publicly about how it's awful that hearthstones have been "Some random magic rock of +3 self-satisfaction. Oh yeah and I guess a magic house is involved?" Hearthstones will be important in different ways and also not grab bag bullshit.
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Jun 1, 2013 04:57
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Oligopsony posted:Everything good was made by Autochthon but everyone else was just a LOOTER who didn't appreciate his CREATIVE VISION well gently caress YOU the Great Maker is going off to HIS OWN PRIVATE REALITY FREE FROM YOUR MOOCHING and ohfuckgremlinismandwheredthesoulsgo There was no Usurpation - the Solars just all went Galt.
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Jun 1, 2013 04:57
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Attorney at Funk posted:There was no Usurpation - the Solars just all went Galt.
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Jun 1, 2013 05:00
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Manses and demesnes in Exalted draw heavily from the idea that humans can improve their environment. The return of the Solars is a big deal in this sense because the guys who built all these magic castles to tame the wilderness are coming back to do it again. Although I'm pretty sure there is an option in the manse creation rules that allow the creator to turn the area into a toxic hell hole that sort of thing isn't considered the norm and if I recall there's also an option to return some of the energy to the surroundings so things stay the same if you have mutants that depend on a demesnes. That being said, building magic castles for the sole reason of getting a rock of +4 to jumping is boring.
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Jun 1, 2013 05:02
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Nessus posted:I unironically assumed the Invisible Fortress was, at least in part, a sick riff on Galt's gulch.
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Jun 1, 2013 05:02
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Every world is a grave. Some just haven't been dug yet.
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Jun 1, 2013 05:03
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Oligopsony posted:Notable Gulches of Creation: Malfeas, Autochthonia, the Jade Prison, the Invisible Fortress, the Labyrinth, whatever Lunars have been doing...
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Jun 1, 2013 05:08
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