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Dravs posted:Exactly, they could still do the '5 Orcs to kill a Marine' thing, just have so if you choose Orcs, you are a Nob and you have 3 Boyz who follow you around like pets. Similarly you could be a Commissar with 7 Guardsmen who follow you, or an Eldar Warlock/ Exarch with 2 guardians. And Marines would just be solo. The trouble, is that a player with AI companion takes up more server and graphical resources than a player with none. You will never see this simply because by avoiding it, they can have more players around and/or improve the game's performance overall. It's why pet classes in MMOs only ever have a single pet at a time.
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Jul 8, 2013 21:50
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Harabeck posted:The trouble, is that a player with AI companion takes up more server and graphical resources than a player with none. You will never see this simply because by avoiding it, they can have more players around and/or improve the game's performance overall. It's why pet classes in MMOs only ever have a single pet at a time.  Ahem.. It's totally doable and plenty of games have done it.
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Jul 8, 2013 21:54
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randombattle posted:
Google tells me this shot is from City of Heroes. I've never played it, but I don't recall it being renowned having a single unified world where many players could battle in a single space. Wasn't it pretty heavily instanced?
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Jul 8, 2013 22:25
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Age of Conan necromancers had a poo poo ton of pets as well, upwards 20, if I recall correctly. Which caused some problems in the beginning, but was fixed to be no more intensive than any other class after some time, it's totally doable. I not so sure it's doable by the guys developing this game though.
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Jul 8, 2013 22:39
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Revelation 2-13 posted:Age of Conan necromancers had a poo poo ton of pets as well, upwards 20, if I recall correctly. Which caused some problems in the beginning, but was fixed to be no more intensive than any other class after some time, it's totally doable. I not so sure it's doable by the guys developing this game though. I don't know. I just think of this game as Planetside 2 in third person so then I go what if one of the battles in planetside that have upwards of 600 people participating all had 3 pet controlled characters following them around. That's 2400 models 3/4 of which also have to have their AI being processed client or server side. poo poo would just break. Of course if they are going for a much smaller scale and more tightly controlled zone populations it can be possible.
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Jul 9, 2013 00:01
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Harabeck posted:Google tells me this shot is from City of Heroes. I've never played it, but I don't recall it being renowned having a single unified world where many players could battle in a single space. Wasn't it pretty heavily instanced? More importantly, the Mastermind archetype (showed in the picture) was hands-down the worst for PVP. Knock the player character out, and their pets collapse in a heap.
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Jul 9, 2013 00:10
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Harabeck posted:Google tells me this shot is from City of Heroes. I've never played it, but I don't recall it being renowned having a single unified world where many players could battle in a single space. Wasn't it pretty heavily instanced? Anarchy Online was a single unified world (well, two American servers) where many players could battle in a single space, with multiple classes that had multiple pets, and each of those classes were very powerful and highly utilized. Anarchy Online was released in 2001. Come on man, you can do better than that. Pet AI is no more complicated than loving mob AI. There isn't any reason that would make it groundbreaking for games to have multiple pets or multiple loving mobs on the screen at the same time, because online videogames have been around for two decades and counting.
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Jul 9, 2013 01:07
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Tab target games have much simpler physics and collision detection in general than anything aspiring to be an action game, like EC. So yeah, all other things being equal they will be able to do more on screen at once than something like Planetside. That games did X so many years ago means a lot less than you seem to realize. I mean, Planetside came out years ago, so we should have tons and tons of massive FPS games, right? Well, obviously not. Having lots of network objects isn't the only place we see this. Look at the state of AI in games. We've had only incremental improvements in true AI over the past decade. The simple truth is that most development effort goes into graphics, not improved networking or AI. That's not to say there are no improvements in those areas, it's just a lot less than you would think comparing it to graphics or other areas of technological development. Also this: http://www.twitch.tv/40kcrusade/b/426266574 During the second AMA stream at about 52:30, the devs talk about how the Tyranids will act, and they seem dubious about ever having them show up in pvp battles for exactly the reasons I'm talking about. Maybe they'll somehow work some developer magic and do what no other game has done, but if they're not sure about how they can implement part of something they've stated they want to do, don't count on an unmentioned feature that would have the same downsides. Here's what it comes down to: Do you agree or disagree that adding large numbers of NPCs to a large pvp battle in a game with action combat would reduce the number of players that can be in one area? Do you understand that from a design standpoint you need to give yourself a huge buffer when it comes to performance issues in a game like this? Harabeck fucked around with this message at 03:16 on Jul 9, 2013 |
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Jul 9, 2013 02:41
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You said something that was explicitly wrong, don't move the goal posts. :/
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Jul 9, 2013 03:23
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Besides all of those examples were built for computers like 7 years ago. MMOs don't have to look like lovely wow clones until the end of time you know.
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Jul 9, 2013 05:52
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MrBims posted:You said something that was explicitly wrong, don't move the goal posts. :/ I admit I was wrong on that point, but that doesn't mean other valid arguments don't exist. There is a good reason to avoid pet classes and NPCs in general when making the kind of game EC wants to be, and my stupidity doesn't change that. randombattle posted:Besides all of those examples were built for computers like 7 years ago. MMOs don't have to look like lovely wow clones until the end of time you know. Right, so look at current examples, say Planetside 2. Like Planetside, it has zero NPCs. As I discussed, the relevant networking technology has not advanced as far as graphical technology has. And besides, with the demand for better graphical assets, you don't necessarily get the ability to put more objects on the screen because a lot of that extra performance goes into making each asset look better instead of displaying more assets. Maybe they will do it. Maybe I'll be eating these words in a year. The team is made of MMO veterans and they seem to think the engine they're working with is pretty special. But I would expect them to first put the effort into implementing Tyranids better rather than pet classes. Besides, I get the impression from these guys that they would mock a pet class user as someone who wants to cowardly hide rather than fight like a man. 
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Jul 9, 2013 15:07
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Hardware requisites have nothing to do with it. The network and hardware requirements already exist. If games like EVE can run thousands of players at once with drone and fighter swarms duking it out in environment in space, they can do the equivalent of a ground based game easily enough. The problem is that the MMO genre tends to be static at best nowadays. Everyone wants to do a theme park MMO of one variation or another since they think that's where all the money is. And having armies of NPC's clashing under the control of players tends to not work with the "narrow" combat that tends to go with themepark/hotbar MMO's. The few games that have tried that I can think of had a hell of a time just trying to get funding. Basically, blame the shittiness of the industry and its unwillingness to experiment. And the management types endemic in industry itself for cocking up any real attempts innovation (AoC, Warhammer Online, the last WH40K MMO attempt, the guy in this company screaming about MILITARY TACTICS and being a navy seal like it's some sort of dog whistle, etc, etc.) whenever a company gets the chance to push the boundaries of what's considered the norm. Any time an idea like that gets bandied about it ends up in the lap of someone like Paul Barnett. Who inevitably uses it as hype to get revenue before quietly discarding it in the pre-release development period in favor of more themepark-esque features. Regardless, I doubt this MMO will the be the one to do it. Though its sorely needed. Often times battlefields feel empty on the PVP side of games. Planetside 2 is guilty of this as well. It's part of why they had to implement the lattice system. Early era Alterac Valley is the last real example I can think of that actually tried to mesh meaningful NPC/PC combat mechanics together to make you feel like you were part of an army, instead of just a random clown-suit hero rolling around in a blob with other clown-suited heroes. Archonex fucked around with this message at 16:55 on Jul 9, 2013 |
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Jul 9, 2013 16:50
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Eve isn't the best example. They've spent years perfecting a specialized hardware setup and they still have to slow the game to 1/10th speed to handle big battles. They also do less collision detection than you might think. Most projectiles are simulated through dice roles. And frankly, being a space game allows them to take tons of shortcuts a game on the ground can't get away with.
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Jul 10, 2013 00:55
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Guys! It's hard to do that stuff. Let's just agree to expect less. We get it.
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Jul 10, 2013 05:33
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Ashrik posted:Guys! It's hard to do that stuff. Let's just agree to expect less. It's not even that hard to get the implementation in once the basic game is there. The main issue lies in balancing large-scale pet or NPC based gameplay like that. Also, designing decent AI for them if they can't run off of some variant of existing NPC AI. So most devs just take the easy way out by not trying to balance larger mob groups or work out any AI/gameplay flaws that'd be exploitable in the class. Regardless, the idea that you can't have large groups of NPC's rolling around is just flat out wrong. Several MMO's have or were going to do it in the past. Saying it's not possible is running in direct contradiction to reality. Case in point, AoC, City of Heroes, that greek/roman mythology MMO that let you roll around with a full party of NPC's before it was shut down, SWG in its early days, the last iteration of the Warhammer 40K MMO, and probably a bunch of other games i'm forgetting. Also, the idea that EVE is somehow less complicated because of dice rolls is hilarious. If only because a dice roll would be like ten percent of the entire process in running a proper damage and resistance/dodge algorithm in just about any MMO. And that's if a dice roll was a part of it at all. Heck, given that any sort of algorithm has to factor in things like range, multiple damage resistances, character bonuses, implant bonuses, ship inherents, and oh so much more just for if the ship gets hit, saying it's all run off of dice rolls displays an amazing lack of understanding behind the complexity of the mechanics in games like that. Edit: Harabeck posted:Eve isn't the best example. They've spent years perfecting a specialized hardware setup and they still have to slow the game to 1/10th speed to handle big battles. They also do less collision detection than you might think. Most projectiles are simulated through dice roles. And frankly, being a space game allows them to take tons of shortcuts a game on the ground can't get away with. Actually, to get into it more, I want to point out why you're wrong here so you don't change the goal posts again. I don't want to write up a dissertation, but I do want to explain why you need to read up on how calculations work if you actually think that the technology and underlying thought behind games like this is so primitive. EVE has far heavier calculations than "dice rolls" to do due to the grognardy combat aspects it has. To give an idea of what sort of math EVE works with, this is your average formula being run per shot when a turret tries to hit a target in EVE. It's a bit more complex than most MMO's. quote:ChanceToHit = 0.5 ^ ((((Transversal speed/(Range to target * Turret Tracking))*(Turret Signature Resolution / Target Signature Radius))^2) + ((max(0, Range To Target - Turret Optimal Range))/Turret Falloff)^2) Things like player speed, range to target, tracking speed, signature resolution, etc, etc, are not called into account in something like WoW when calculating hit chance. It's usually just a straight core stat assortment plugged in and levied against or with whatever hard coded math they have running in the background. Not a large number of environmental and rapidly changing player dependent variables like speed, range, and tracking rates. And keep in mind that things like signature resolution, radius, etc, etc, almost certainly have an unseen formula they interact with that can act as part of a defensive or offensive offset granted by implants or inherent stats associated with a ship. And that's just one of many mathematical processes you'd need to do to get things working as they do now in a game that wants to get into that level of detail. That's not getting into any sort of damage formulae either. Or that the game is essentially running on a 3D plane that utilizes the entire plane more than most other MMO's do (See, flying being mostly a travel method in WoW as probably the penultimate example for modern hotbar MMO's.) for navigation, collision, combat, NPC AI, etc, etc. Despite all that, as of 2010 it could take up to 2,400-3000 people (not counting NPC helpers) in a system, each firing off hundreds to thousands of rounds every few seconds to lag the server down to the point where it hits extreme lag like what you're implying. Suffice to say that you really don't know what you're talking about. Archonex fucked around with this message at 06:47 on Jul 10, 2013 |
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Jul 10, 2013 05:42
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I remember seeing Dark Millennium previews and it looked pretty good, albeit using the vanilla WoW interface. Then THQ went busto and that disappeared. So when I spotted this on the front page, I was leery, then optimistic, then very, very sad. The 40k universe seems like an absolutely perfect setting for an MMO, with ready made factions, shitloads of lore, reasons for everybody to fight and a literal entire universe of places to send people to for various bullshit. So it gets picked up by a company that makes games for Doritos. drat it. My requirements aren't even that high for a 40k game I would throw big stacks of money at, and I still worry that it will fall well below that. It's just going to be a browser game or something isn't it.  I admit, I can't picture how "third person procedurally generated hack n slash MMO" would work in my head. Sounds like it would be mostly PvE third person Diablo or something? It doesn't mesh.I "enrolled" either way, because I have a weakness for 40k video games.
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Jul 10, 2013 06:28
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Archonex posted:Actually, to get into it more, I want to point out why you're wrong here so you don't change the goal posts again. The "moving the goal posts" fallacy does not apply here. My statement being incorrect did not preclude the existence of other good arguments. The goal post fallacy applies when you put forward a standard of proof and then aren't satisfied when that is met. It does not apply anytime someone comes up with a counter-argument. quote:I don't want to write up a dissertation, but I do want to explain why you need to read up on how calculations work if you actually think that the technology and underlying thought behind games like this is so primitive. I'm not trying to insult Eve. CCP is loving brilliant and they've done something that no one else can current do. But that's all the more reason you should listen to what I'm saying. The things CCP does to make Eve work won't work with every game, and even if it did, CCP isn't about to share its technology. quote:EVE has far heavier calculations than "dice rolls" to do due to the grognardy combat aspects it has. First, we're not talking about most MMOs, we're talking a game promising action combat, which has complications a tab target MMO doesn't have to deal with. Moving on... While I'm sure you look at that to-hit formula and imagine yourself slaving away at solving that on pen and paper, that formula is utterly trivial to a computer. Basic arithmetic almost isn't worth considering when discussing computer efficiency (thus the importance of Big O notation, if you know what that is). So the important part is that this calculation scales at a constant rate. You do one calculation per shot and that's it. The same isn't true of collision detection. For any collidable objects within a given area, you have to check all of those objects against each other. Also, since Eve battles involve ships that are spread out quite a ways relative to their combat movement speeds, it's easier to optimize for ship-to-ship collisions than an action game where players are more densely packed relative to the collision risk. So, since shots don't do collision detection in Eve, it is far more efficient than an action game where you need good collision detection to make melee and bullets feel right. In fact, does Eve even check line of sight? If not, they don't even have to raycast (not as expensive as collision detection in general, but a little worse than basic arithmetic). Missiles and AOE effects are slightly more expensive (AOE being the worse of the two), but that's only a fraction of what's going on in an Eve battle, as opposed to a shooter that needs to run collision detection on every bullet. So while I'm sure Eve is running all sorts of neat formulas in the background to make your experience more enjoyable, from the computer's point of view, those formulas are many times more efficient than collision detection, which is why CCP did it that way. quote:Or that the game is essentially running on a 3D plane that utilizes the entire plane more than most other MMO's do (See, flying being mostly a travel method in WoW as probably the penultimate example for modern hotbar MMO's.) for navigation, collision, combat, NPC AI, etc, etc. That the game is in 3D space means absolutely nothing relevant in this conversation. It does mean your client has be good at efficiently rendering many things because you have nothing to break LOS, but the server couldn't care less. In fact, having terrain is just something else you have to check collisions against. quote:Suffice to say that you really don't know what you're talking about. Look, Eve is a great game and CCP are geniuses. But having said that, Eve is irrelevant when discussing performance issues in Eternal Crusade. They get to do all sorts of things most other games could never get away with (can you imagine a shooter that purposely slows itself to 1/10th speed?). That's why I've been bringing up Planetside 2 instead, which deals with many of the same issues EC will have to deal with. PS2 can handle 2000 people per continent, but sure as hell can't handle them being in the same place on that continent. Hopefully, you now partially understand why.
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Jul 10, 2013 16:18
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Awesome, we have a nerd off.
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Jul 11, 2013 08:28
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He's gonna throw out his back moving those goalposts.
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Jul 11, 2013 11:19
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Dravs posted:Awesome, we have a nerd off. My nerd penis is harder and longer than yours.  I was just trying to point out how ranting about collision detection, dice rolls, and such as a reason why these types of games can't have large battles is as bad as the whole "MILITARY TACTICS!" thing that one executive was on about earlier. I got a wall of text in reply ignoring the practicalities of coding a game like that (And the games that have done it.) instead, though. The whole argument is fairly ridiculous anyways since I kind of doubt these guys are going to go the route of massive Dynasty Warrior-esque tier battles. The current interviews makes it sound like the game is fairly instanced with tightly focused content. Not like there's much else to discuss unfortunately. They need to run another interview with the navy seal CEO again to whip people out of shape. That way there's something to talk about. Archonex fucked around with this message at 11:58 on Jul 11, 2013 |
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Jul 11, 2013 11:31
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The website opened up another phase, adding thisquote:Battle Brothers of the Adeptus Astartes
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Jul 11, 2013 22:31
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No real surprises in those 4 chapters, I guess. Ultramarines and Space Wolves are obvious, Blood Angels are integral to the lore and the Dark Angels have their whole terrible secret angle. Though the fact that all of them are original founding Chapters makes me wonder where they're planning to set it in the timeline.
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Jul 11, 2013 23:25
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Zaodai posted:Though the fact that all of them are original founding Chapters makes me wonder where they're planning to set it in the timeline. I don't think they care much about the timeline, as you said yourself its because they're most familiar. It would be cool if they put Space Sharks or Raptors but its understandable why they went with the safe bet. Not that theres anything wrong with that, if this game actually comes out I'll probably be a Dark Angel since they love plasma weapons  vvv Do you mean Black Templars? frajaq fucked around with this message at 08:11 on Jul 12, 2013 |
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Jul 12, 2013 07:56
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frajaq posted:I don't think they care much about the timeline, as you said yourself its because they're most familiar. It would be cool if they put Space Sharks or Raptors but its understandable why they went with the safe bet. There are popular non-first founding chapters though. Dark Templar for example. And honestly, part of me was hoping for the Salamanders.  I do wonder if the various Chapters will have bonuses to different aspects of the game, though. Just from those four and going off of very generic video game mechanics, you could make Ultramarines generically shooty and/or give them buffs that apply to their squad (to represent Rowboat Gooeyman's magic codex of crap), Space Wolves melee bonuses, Dark Angels heavy weapon bonuses, and Blood Angels... uh... better defense, because it's all I've got. Or a movement bonus, they were big on mobility as I recall?
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Jul 12, 2013 08:09
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Zaodai posted:There are popular non-first founding chapters though. Dark Templar for example. And honestly, part of me was hoping for the Salamanders. Yes, some Blood Frenzy bonus move thing or some such(I haven't played 40k in ten years, going on memory). And I'm totally with you on the Salamanders thing. I was a fan of that chapter since Rogue Trader days when barely any info was available on them. Just loved the dragon iconography as a teen, I couldn't buy that Salamanders skin for SM fast enough.
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Jul 12, 2013 09:11
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Zaodai posted:No real surprises in those 4 chapters, I guess. Ultramarines and Space Wolves are obvious, Blood Angels are integral to the lore and the Dark Angels have their whole terrible secret angle. To be fair if they throw in Space Wolves there could be every single chapter in the game and I wouldn't care because I'm going to be a goddamn space viking.
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Jul 12, 2013 19:33
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I really never understood why people like Space Marines so much. They are arrogant assholes with OP armor. The real men are in the Guard.
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Jul 12, 2013 19:57
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BadLlama posted:I really never understood why people like Space Marines so much. They are arrogant assholes with OP armor. The real men are in the Guard. This. The Imperial Guard is badass. Space Marines on the other hand are loving boring. Dan Abnett's Gaunt novels illustrate this fact pretty well.
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Jul 12, 2013 20:03
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It's not hard to see the appeal. Guardsmen are commendable for facing the horrors of the galaxy with (usually) just paper armor and a flashlight but most people just want to be unstoppable 7 feet tall power armored angels of death that know no fear.
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Jul 12, 2013 21:06
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Senjuro posted:It's not hard to see the appeal. Guardsmen are commendable for facing the horrors of the galaxy with (usually) just paper armor and a flashlight but most people just want to be unstoppable 7 feet tall power armored angels of death that know no fear. Through extensive genetic manipulation to the point that they should not be considered human any longer. Space Marines are Xenos and the guard needs to rid them from the galaxy.
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Jul 12, 2013 21:12
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orphean posted:To be fair if they throw in Space Wolves there could be every single chapter in the game and I wouldn't care because I'm going to be a goddamn space viking. What other space marine faction would let you have chest length braided neckbeards and badges of honor depicting three wolves howling at a moon? Not the generic, space vampire, or  Also, space vikings are cool I guess. Definitely better than the others. Even by the standards of WH40K they're the  faction of the bunch. If you're going to play a Warhammer game and play as a space marine you had might as well throw aside your shame and go with the most ridiculously grim, hammiest, wolf and viking obsessed murder machines the game has to offer. Archonex fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Jul 12, 2013 |
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Jul 12, 2013 21:14
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I dunno if you're looking at a warhams games and you're not going for the grimdarkiest silly horseshit possible I'm not sure why you're looking at warhams games. 
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Jul 12, 2013 22:45
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Why can't somebody just make a Dark Heresy themed Silent Storm remake? It even natively supports that one Grey Knights book since it already has walking tanks with autocannons for sidearms that break the difficulty curve in half
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Jul 12, 2013 22:49
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orphean posted:I dunno if you're looking at a warhams games and you're not going for the grimdarkiest silly horseshit possible I'm not sure why you're looking at warhams games. Plus, they're the only faction that can get drunk. On super powered space ale that can kill a normal man with a sip, no less. And they roll into battle with car sized (space) wolves and bitchin' awesome beards while screaming about ale, honor, vikings, and the glory of battle every other sentence. They're basically both the gooniest and faction out of the bunch. Either way though, if this game can let me stumble down a hillside drunk off my character's rear end, TKing guardsmen left and right due to me swiping at a lone (and extremely confused) orc player with a chainsaw sword in a vain attempt to kill him, all while slurring praises to the Emperor, i'll forgive this game for any flaws it has. Because it will be the funniest drat game ever. Especially if I can get some friends to join me on my drunken rampages. Asehujiko posted:Why can't somebody just make a Dark Heresy themed Silent Storm remake? It even natively supports that one Grey Knights book since it already has walking tanks with autocannons for sidearms that break the difficulty curve in half Technically speaking, they did make a top down strategy game a long time ago. It's called Space Hulk and has been remade in tons of different ways (Including probably that.) in the form of many fan games by now. Only, in true grimdark form the power curve is broken the other way in favor of the genestealers. That autocannon can't save your terminator marine from the capricious nature of the turn based combat system. Or the two genestealers waiting behind the one you just blasted.  A serious Dark Heresy game would be the tits though. Or better yet, since we're fantasizing about games that'll probably never get made, a Rogue Trader game with elements from Freelancer and the X series. Throw in some half-assed ground gameplay and you'd have a classic. Rogue Trader is basically just Dark Heresy scaled up to where you start out commanding a space ship and a small army anyways. The only difference is that the scale of the interactions with the game world are bigger. And instead of becoming a lone high end acolyte to an inquisitor you can eventually (theoretically) progress to the point where you command an armada of ships and troops to loot and pillage the galaxy in the name of Archonex fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Jul 13, 2013 |
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Jul 12, 2013 23:47
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BadLlama posted:I really never understood why people like Space Marines so much. They are arrogant assholes with OP armor. The real men are in the Guard. Lucy Heartfilia posted:This. The Imperial Guard is badass. Space Marines on the other hand are loving boring. Dan Abnett's Gaunt novels illustrate this fact pretty well. I am glad there are others who hold these opinions  Imagine how awesome it would've been for each player to control a dozen fighting men each, crushing the enemy under the sheer firepower (and dead bodies) of our forces.
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Jul 13, 2013 04:29
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Grog purveyors par-excellance Matrix Games are seriously putting out a full fledged wargame version of Armageddon which is probably the 40k game I'm personally most excited about. http://www.matrixgames.com/news/1085/Armageddon.invasion.starts.in.2014
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Jul 13, 2013 04:35
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orphean posted:Grog purveyors par-excellance Matrix Games are seriously putting out a full fledged wargame version of Armageddon which is probably the 40k game I'm personally most excited about. Holy poo poo I did not know about this. Holy poo poo am I so psyched for this. Armageddon is my favorite thing in 40k  e: liberation of the planet my rear end they're still at war
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Jul 13, 2013 07:01
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S.J. posted:e: liberation of the planet my rear end they're still at war Freedom is a constant war against tyranny.  I knew about that game from the Wargames thread, I'm hoping it ends up halfway decent and not just a bunch of codex pages crammed on the screen with NATO counters for some reason.
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Jul 13, 2013 07:22
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Haha, I want to see the NATO counter for a Warlord Titan. XXth Div [ >:< ] 20-6
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Jul 13, 2013 07:28
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What level will it be at? Moving entire regiments around or down to a tactical level. Also, the wording worries me. Players will be fighting "alongside" the named characters so I'm afraid the missions will involve "greetings commander noname, please clear this flank for the main advance so you can look to the north of the map and see how awesome our licensed character is" Finally, wasn't Slitherine part of Paradox but got kicked out for somehow failing to meet the QA standards that even Gettysburg: Armoured Warfare passed or am I getting my turn based strategy developers mixed up?
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Jul 13, 2013 13:00
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