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Fuzz
Jun 2, 2003

I'm an annoying drama queen fuckass with an online videogame grudge, but I still love Starfleet Dental

It had to be done, because it was getting stupid in the main thread.

Discuss away!

On my end, I found it really interesting the backstory of Joel that they allude to pretty clearly, but don't outright tell you. After Sarah dies he goes to a FEDRA Q-Zone, decides it's a mess, and takes Tommy and goes out to be a Hunter, using ploys just like the guys in Pittsburgh. They did it to survive, but it's probably what Tommy and he ultimately parted ways over, because Tommy had a higher moral standard than Joel did and didn't want to just turn into another raider murdering innocent people for supplies, however it's pretty clear that after Sarah died, Joel just stopped giving a poo poo about everything other than survival.

Joel pretty clearly took out the group at some point after that, and it's not really clear when he met up with Tess, however it is pretty clear that she was smuggling long before he came into the picture, so maybe she just showed him a better way of life that didn't involve murdering innocent people, or maybe it was just more lucrative because there was less overhead and they only had to split between the two of them... who knows. Ultimately Ellie helps him to overcome his self-loathing and give him something to actually care about and believe in other than just pure survival, which is why he can't let her die in the end... not just because she's a surrogate for Sarah, but because without her, his life literally will have no more meaning... he just has nothing else at that point, and the single-minded task of delivering Ellie was all that was keeping him going after Tess' death.


Joel is definitely one of my favorite video game characters after this... goddamn.


EDIT: Dammit, I totally didn't notice the typo in the title.

Fuzz posted:

I updated the OP, because I think people are getting a bit too angry and pissy in this thread and I don't want it getting gassed.


REMEMBER:

Opinions are like assholes, and everyone has one (except those people with imperforate anuses, I guess). Healthy discussion is fine, thinking other people are wrong is fine, just don't turn it into a catfight.

Fuzz fucked around with this message at Jun 19, 2013 around 23:57

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ghost bones
Apr 27, 2013

everyone is fabulous always


I think all of the characters, even little bit players, got a fair amount of subtext and characterization that really combined to put this game head and shoulders above it's competitors.

Stuff like Bill and his partner, which is never made explicit or overwrought, was really dealt with a sober way that hinted at the emotion without giving into theatrics. Though I did notice the gay porn mag on top of the stacks when Ellie was first messing with the magazines, so it was even funnier when she pulls it out in the truck later.

Really, David is probably the only character that jumps to mind as sort of moustache-twirling, but they still do a hell of job subverting your initial expectations by making him seem like a genuinely good person, then actually come to like him a bit after the big fight, then pull the bait and switch on you and even tie it into the previous encounters you've had with the hunters.

I wonder if the DLC is going to address Ish. It seemed kind of interesting to have that little story all laid out (the room with Kyle and the children was particularly rough) and then just kind of have it end. It works as a brief look into another survivor's story, and also shows how these other survivors' stories are ongoing, but it also seems like (if they wanted to) they have a framework to expand on more of the world without having to immediately go back Joel and Ellie.

Man, I need to start a new playthrough already.

DreamShipWrecked
Jan 11, 2013

Shooting ourselves in the head for ~our friends~


Only a minor spoiler but something that still bothered me, the university had a hell of a lot of detail and effort put into it for such a short segment. I'm certainly not complaining, it was both beautiful and tense since I kept expecting monsters. But they never really came except for two short segments.

It's odd.

Spiritus Nox
Sep 2, 2011

Trust us, we're highly trained medical professionals bears.


Yeah, as a current college student it was almost a little eerie how well they nailed the aesthetic of the dorms, particularly given the unfortunate implication that I might be killing its unfortunate residents. The whole college sequence was great, I was surprised how gripping they made what should have been a fairly rote sequence when Joel got wounded - though prolonging the struggle that led to his fall does make it a bit hard to swallow when Ellie doesn't shoot the guy who knocks him off or something.

Fuzz
Jun 2, 2003

I'm an annoying drama queen fuckass with an online videogame grudge, but I still love Starfleet Dental

ghost bones posted:

I wonder if the DLC is going to address Ish. It seemed kind of interesting to have that little story all laid out (the room with Kyle and the children was particularly rough) and then just kind of have it end. It works as a brief look into another survivor's story, and also shows how these other survivors' stories are ongoing, but it also seems like (if they wanted to) they have a framework to expand on more of the world without having to immediately go back Joel and Ellie.

Man, I need to start a new playthrough already.

Yeah, I am really hoping that one of the DLCs is just "Ish's Story" or something, and you get to see everything that happens to him.


Honestly, I was fully expecting the game to end with Joel getting gunned down and dying to save Ellie... the direction it took was so much more interesting and thought provoking.

Spiritus Nox
Sep 2, 2011

Trust us, we're highly trained medical professionals bears.


As soon as Joel got into the elevator with Ellie, the first thing that popped into my head was "There's no loving way the doors don't open to a firing squad at the bottom." I was pleasantly surprised at what I got.

ghost bones
Apr 27, 2013

everyone is fabulous always


Yeah, one of them (specifically Joel) dying at the end would have been the cliche way to end it and I'm really glad they didn't go that route.

A game like Red Dead Redemption earned the ending it did because of the nature of the character and their place in, or rather against, the changing world. Joel is instead a creature completely of this new world who understands and accepts doing what it takes to survive and it would have felt really cheap to have him just get gunned down or bitten in a cheap way after 21 years of being one of the meanest bastards in the apocalypse.

e: I guess I'll spoil ending talk of another game because somebody somewhere will probably get the rear end for vaguely spoiling a game that's been out for years.

ghost bones fucked around with this message at Jun 19, 2013 around 04:04

BMB5150
Oct 24, 2010

Barnhart screwed me, that's typical of him, he's always been a wanker.


Spiritus Nox posted:

As soon as Joel got into the elevator with Ellie, the first thing that popped into my head was "There's no loving way the doors don't open to a firing squad at the bottom." I was pleasantly surprised at what I got.

Same here. I didn't want it to happen but everything was telling me it's going to be the generic army with guns pointed out ready to shoot him or give up Ellie, or hell both since they only need her brain at that point. I'm quite satisfied ND broke away from what's always expected to give us something different. You weren't sure how things go. Hell when in the truck departing Salt Lake, I had a feeling that Ellie was in the car, but I've been made to distrust anything that may happen.

ghost bones
Apr 27, 2013

everyone is fabulous always


They pull that tactic on you a couple times to gently caress with your emotions. Ellie on her own at the beginning of Winter was pretty troubling until she makes the plea for medicine, and they kind of do it again and by jumping forward to the truck for another brief fakeout.

Granted, you don't expect the main characters to die off screen but it just goes to show how much this game gets you to invest in these characters that even small manipulations like that can be torturous.

Sir Tonk
Apr 18, 2006

11 August 1987

ghost bones posted:

I wonder if the DLC is going to address Ish.

This is a drat good idea. I'd love for the DLC to just be different stories about the groups you read about during the game. Ish especially, that sounded really interesting. No need to include anyone from the main game either.

Brightman
Feb 24, 2005

I've seen fun you people wouldn't believe.
Tiki torches on fire off the summit of Kilauea.
I watched disco balls glitter in the dark near the Brandenburg Gate.
All those moments will be lost in time, like crowds in rain.

Time to sleep.


Hot Dog Day #82 posted:

Regarding Winter:

I wish there was a little more moral ambiguity with regards to David's village. I really liked how the inhabitants' reaction to having an infected murderer running loose in their midst] was to round up and protect the children, but I think that making them cannibals was an easy out. I would have loved it if they flipped the perspective and made it so that the player was the bad guy in that situation (as was kind of alluded to when David said that the player had murdered a scouting/scrounging group he had sent to the university). I thought winter was the best season, but I kind of wish they went in a different direction with the village. Oh well!

This just made me realize that even though I wanted Ellie to point out that their scavenging party shot first at them when they were at the university that was actually the point since they were scavenging for people to eat. I'm sure that argument wouldn't have mattered either way though.

jabro
Mar 25, 2003


Kobra Kommandant


- Superbowl XXXV -
Ravens 35, Giants 7


I missed some Artifacts or whatever they are called. The last one I seen about Ish was one in a house after the sewers saying he was the one who wrote the message on the outside, that only he and a woman made it out(Kyle's wife?), and that was it. Was there anything else to say what happened to him after that? If there is I don't want the contents spoiled since I am about to do an Easy+ playthrough to kill everything so I can explore. I just want to know if I will have resolution to the Saga of Ish.

Hot Dog Day #82
Jul 5, 2003



Are there any wikis with artifact descriptions up yet? I completely forgot to check Ellie's backpack when I was playing as her and missed a bunch of stuff :/

Red Pyramid
Apr 29, 2008


So, what's the deal with the monkeys, at the University? I feel like I may have missed a note or recording. I'm under the impression that the monkeys were infected, whoever was experimenting let them loose (why?), got bit, and then shot himself. But why were they infected? Was it a Firefly experiment in search of a cure? And why weren't they showing any symptoms of the infection?

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Watch that tongue... sticky!


Red Pyramid posted:

So, what's the deal with the monkeys, at the University? I feel like I may have missed a note or recording. I'm under the impression that the monkeys were infected, whoever was experimenting let them loose (why?), got bit, and then shot himself. But why were they infected? Was it a Firefly experiment in search of a cure? And why weren't they showing any symptoms of the infection?

They were experimenting to find a cure but had to abandon the place. The guy released them because he felt bad for them. They're not infected presumably because they're not human, the same as the horses/dogs/ect, but they can still transmit the infection.

Spiritus Nox
Sep 2, 2011

Trust us, we're highly trained medical professionals bears.


Red Pyramid posted:

So, what's the deal with the monkeys, at the University? I feel like I may have missed a note or recording. I'm under the impression that the monkeys were infected, whoever was experimenting let them loose (why?), got bit, and then shot himself. But why were they infected? Was it a Firefly experiment in search of a cure? And why weren't they showing any symptoms of the infection?

In order: Indeed, correct (because he's a twit), yup, and yes again. They were infected in an attempt to learn about the fungus and eventually derive a cure, and they didn't show any signs of infection presumably because, like real cordyceps, the fungus that zombified humans specialized in invading their bodies and didn't respond well to chimps.

Sir Tonk
Apr 18, 2006

11 August 1987

jabro posted:

I missed some Artifacts or whatever they are called. The last one I seen about Ish was one in a house after the sewers saying he was the one who wrote the message on the outside, that only he and a woman made it out(Kyle's wife?), and that was it. Was there anything else to say what happened to him after that? If there is I don't want the contents spoiled since I am about to do an Easy+ playthrough to kill everything so I can explore. I just want to know if I will have resolution to the Saga of Ish.

Yeah, that was the last Ish one as far as I know. Just that they were the only two survivors.

ThisIsACoolGuy
Nov 2, 2010

I disagree!


Just a aside but Ish is dead so not sure if he'd be worthy of the DLC spot.

In the sewers you see a drawing of a guy in a swat uniform and one with a helmet and one of them is labeled "Ish". Behind a locked door in the sewer you find two swat infected, one with a helmet and one without. Sup Ish.

ghost bones
Apr 27, 2013

everyone is fabulous always


^^ If I remember correctly the last note from him seemed pretty definitive that they were moving on and that locking and marking the tunnels and leaving them to the infected was their only option.

jabro posted:

I missed some Artifacts or whatever they are called. The last one I seen about Ish was one in a house after the sewers saying he was the one who wrote the message on the outside, that only he and a woman made it out(Kyle's wife?), and that was it. Was there anything else to say what happened to him after that? If there is I don't want the contents spoiled since I am about to do an Easy+ playthrough to kill everything so I can explore. I just want to know if I will have resolution to the Saga of Ish.

As far as I can tell, and pretty much anyone I've asked, that's the last artifact you find from Ish. They got out, one got in. That's why the single player DLC they've got planned feels like it would fit into that blank spot nicely.

But if you do happen to find Ish's skeleton . . . please don't step on his skull.

jabro
Mar 25, 2003


Kobra Kommandant


- Superbowl XXXV -
Ravens 35, Giants 7


Sir Tonk posted:

Yeah, that was the last Ish one as far as I know. Just that they were the only two survivors.

Well, I hope they release some DLC then. Going from the boat, through the sewers, and finally that house, I started liking Ish more than anyone else in the game. Just going room to room reading the notes of what he started in there for people of that street. When I arrived at the power plant and found out it was friendlies the first thing I hoped for was an intro to Tommy's friend he met while traveling from Boston to Colorado.


ThisIsACoolGuy posted:

Just a aside but Ish is dead so not sure if he'd be worthy of the DLC spot.

In the sewers you see a drawing of a guy in a swat uniform and one with a helmet and one of them is labeled "Ish". Behind a locked door in the sewer you find two swat infected, one with a helmet and one without. Sup Ish.

Ish and a woman made it out. He was the one who barricaded the sewers and wrote the graffiti not to enter because infected were inside. I don't see why he would travel all the way back to the coast to reenter an infected area with one way in or out just to die in a locked room.

jabro fucked around with this message at Jun 19, 2013 around 04:36

Fuzz
Jun 2, 2003

I'm an annoying drama queen fuckass with an online videogame grudge, but I still love Starfleet Dental

ThisIsACoolGuy posted:

Just a aside but Ish is dead so not sure if he'd be worthy of the DLC spot.

In the sewers you see a drawing of a guy in a swat uniform and one with a helmet and one of them is labeled "Ish". Behind a locked door in the sewer you find two swat infected, one with a helmet and one without. Sup Ish.

Don't you ruin my dreams!


Ish survives. He and Kyle's wife escape and lock the sewer door shut. I actually thought the sniper would end up being Ish at first, but then it was just more of those hunter assholes.


Yeah, about those hunters... I feel like having a group of literally 60 dudes raping and pillaging would not be a sustainable venture... but hey, video games.

ThisIsACoolGuy
Nov 2, 2010

I disagree!


ghost bones posted:

^^ If I remember correctly the last note from him seemed pretty definitive that they were moving on and that locking and marking the tunnels and leaving them to the infected was their only option.


As far as I can tell, and pretty much anyone I've asked, that's the last artifact you find from Ish. They got out, one got in. That's why the single player DLC they've got planned feels like it would fit into that blank spot nicely.

But if you do happen to find Ish's skeleton . . . please don't step on his skull.

I know, but it's just something implied. It's when you get the platform down for Ellie there's a side area that has two infected and it's further away from all the others, so I think it's implied that they tried to leave but didn't get far.

jabro
Mar 25, 2003


Kobra Kommandant


- Superbowl XXXV -
Ravens 35, Giants 7


ThisIsACoolGuy posted:

I know, but it's just something implied. It's when you get the platform down for Ellie there's a side area that has two infected and it's further away from all the others, so I think it's implied that they tried to leave but didn't get far.

Unless the note in the house after the sewers was made of feathers from Forrest Gump they made it out.

Captain Snaps
Jul 27, 2003

Maintol!

Well, that OP basically covered what I posted on the other thread better than I did. People keep holding up Joel's decision at the end as some sort of morally bankrupt attempt at self preservation just because he says he needs her to survive. I bet those people wouldn't come to that same conclusion if he were actually her father. By the end of the story, Ellie may as well be his daughter.

jabro
Mar 25, 2003


Kobra Kommandant


- Superbowl XXXV -
Ravens 35, Giants 7


Captain Snaps posted:

Well, that OP basically covered what I posted on the other thread better than I did. People keep holding up Joel's decision at the end as some sort of morally bankrupt attempt at self preservation just because he says he needs her to survive. I bet those people wouldn't come to that same conclusion if he were actually her father. By the end of the story, Ellie may as well be his daughter.

Agreed. But you are in a forum whose normal response to any family conflict is to advise others to sever and seek therapy.

al-azad
May 28, 2009



In one of the houses is a letter where Ish apologizes about the incident. Ish may or may not be dead as I thought one of the SWAT bodies was him as well until I found the letter.

al-azad fucked around with this message at Jun 19, 2013 around 04:54

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Watch that tongue... sticky!


Captain Snaps posted:

Well, that OP basically covered what I posted on the other thread better than I did. People keep holding up Joel's decision at the end as some sort of morally bankrupt attempt at self preservation just because he says he needs her to survive. I bet those people wouldn't come to that same conclusion if he were actually her father. By the end of the story, Ellie may as well be his daughter.

Shockingly, people can do things out of love which are still bad things to do, and people can and will do things in the middle of an emotional situation which make perfect sense as something they would do and still are bad decisions.

Even ignoring the whole Apocalypse thing, Joel made his decision and lied to Ellie because he knew, without question, that if presented with the whole truth she would have made the decision to sacrifice herself. He denied her agency and denied her the right to make her own choices because he, personally, could not suffer through that loss again. It was a decision made out of love but it was still a decision where he specifically set out to prevent her from making the decision she would if given all the facts.

The ending can be read a few ways, but it's very clear that Ellie knows Joel is lying to her and at bare minimum isn't thrilled by it. Ellie is 14, but she's also effectively Joel's equal. She's shown that she's remarkably capable and mature, and that she can survive without Joel, she just doesn't want to. Joel lying to her is showing that he has stopped recognizing that.

There are a lot of arguments to be made about if Ellie should or shouldn't have sacrificed herself, but they're kind of unimportant. Joel wouldn't have let Ellie sacrifice herself no matter what the situation. Even if it was an assured cure, even if the Fireflies were the second coming of Jesus, Joel still would have done the same thing because that is the person he is.

ImpAtom fucked around with this message at Jun 19, 2013 around 04:57

al-azad
May 28, 2009



Joel's decision isn't what bothered me, it was the lie. Ellie's not stupid, especially after everything she went through in Winter. She knows Joel is lying but his conviction is strong enough that it doesn't matter. One of the noticeable themes here is building relationships in a destroyed world. Billy pushed his lover away and became a raving hermit. Ish was content with living on his own in a sewer but took the risk to build a family and was happy until the infected came. He could have probably lived peacefully for a long time on his own but that wasn't the point. Tommy was hosed up by Joel's actions and disenfranchised by the Fireflies methods until he found a wife and they built the City on the Hill of the post-pandemic world.

Joel needs Ellie and Ellie needs Joel, she says as much when he threatens to leave her. But Joel still sees Ellie as a child, someone you can make little white lies to and made up fairy tales, even though she's practically his equal. It's just a bittersweet moment.

Fuzz
Jun 2, 2003

I'm an annoying drama queen fuckass with an online videogame grudge, but I still love Starfleet Dental

jabro posted:

Agreed. But you are in a forum whose normal response to any family conflict is to advise others to sever and seek therapy.

Yeah, I think the fundamental flaw to this sort of judgment call is that gamers, through the process of being gamers and not making hard or moral choices basically ever, have a fundamental lack of empathy when it comes to gaming. It's a construct in our heads that prevents us from getting emotionally invested in our character as he falls on yet another pit of spikes or kills another hundred questionably Russian soldiers.

Spiritus Nox
Sep 2, 2011

Trust us, we're highly trained medical professionals bears.


ImpAtom posted:

Shockingly, people can do things out of love which are still bad things to do, and people can and will do things in the middle of an emotional situation which make perfect sense as something they would do and still are bad decisions.

Even ignoring the whole Apocalypse thing, Joel made his decision and lied to Ellie because he knew, without question, that if presented with the whole truth she would have made the decision to sacrifice herself. He denied her agency and denied her the right to make her own choices because he, personally, could not suffer through that loss again. It was a decision made out of love but it was still a decision where he specifically set out to prevent her from making the decision she would if given all the facts.

The ending can be read a few ways, but it's very clear that Ellie knows Joel is lying to her and at bare minimum isn't thrilled by it.

You can make argument about how she's "only 14" but she's also a 14 year old who has kill people, seen people die for her, and proven that she is perfectly capable of fending for herself as well as any adult. Joel gave her a gun because he trusted her to act responsibly with it. That's a big and important scene where it shows Joel going from treating her like an inept child to treating her like someone who has to be allowed to make her own decisions to survive.

There are a lot of arguments to be made about if Ellie should or shouldn't have sacrifice herself, but they're kind of unimportant. Joel wouldn't have let Ellie sacrifice herself no matter what the situation. Even if it was an assured cure, even if the Fireflies were the second coming of Jesus, Joel still would have done the same thing because that is the person he is.

On the other hand, is it really fair to put that kind of burden on a desperate and somewhat emotionally stunted 14 year old girl? Particularly considering that between the fireflies' own admission of the slim liklihood of a cure and logs chroniciling various members' fuckups and stupidity ,they kind of seem like a bunch of useless, manipulative asswipes even before they just assume Ellie is perfectly happy to turn her brain over to them. If Joel had woken up and been given a chance to talk to Ellie and hear her say "It's okay" before going off to cut her brain out he might have lether go through with it - and I think he knows it and hates himself for it. But instead they dope her up, wheel her straight into the operating room, and point a gun at Joel's head and dare him to make something of it. And he's supposed to entrust his surrogate daughter to these fuckwitted strangers, on the off chance they suddenly figure out how science works? gently caress that and gently caress them, I say.

Captain Snaps
Jul 27, 2003

Maintol!

ImpAtom posted:

Shockingly, people can do things out of love which are still bad things to do, and people can and will do things in the middle of an emotional situation which make perfect sense as something they would do and still are bad decisions.

Even ignoring the whole Apocalypse thing, Joel made his decision and lied to Ellie because he knew, without question, that if presented with the whole truth she would have made the decision to sacrifice herself. He denied her agency and denied her the right to make her own choices because he, personally, could not suffer through that loss again. It was a decision made out of love but it was still a decision where he specifically set out to prevent her from making the decision she would if given all the facts.

The ending can be read a few ways, but it's very clear that Ellie knows Joel is lying to her and at bare minimum isn't thrilled by it.

This is certainly true, but the fact remains that she WASN'T given that choice. At the very least Joel has her best interests in mind. Are we so sure that she would have given herself up so willingly had she known of the other immune people they had found to no avail? Would she really be willing to lay down her life knowing that the difference wasn't anything to do with her, but to do with the strain of the fungus she was infected with? Would she be willing to leave Joel alone again in that world, meaning what they mean to each other at that point? I don't think it's quite so cut and dry, which is why I think she is ok with the lie at the end.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Watch that tongue... sticky!


Captain Snaps posted:

This is certainly true, but the fact remains that she WASN'T given that choice. At the very least Joel has her best interests in mind. Are we so sure that she would have given herself up so willingly had she known of the other immune people they had found to no avail? Would she really be willing to lay down her life knowing that the difference wasn't anything to do with her, but to do with the strain of the fungus she was infected with? Would she be willing to leave Joel alone again in that world, meaning what they mean to each other at that point? I don't think it's quite so cut and dry, which is why I think she is ok with the lie at the end.

She would have. She specifically quotes Tess and what Tess talked about before she died not long before the whole thing happens. Everything that happened with Sam basically existed to get her into that mindset. Everything we know about Ellie basically sets her up as someone who would inevitably make that decisions and Joel knows it. That is why he has to lie to her.

Fuzz
Jun 2, 2003

I'm an annoying drama queen fuckass with an online videogame grudge, but I still love Starfleet Dental

Spiritus Nox posted:

On the other hand, is it really fair to put that kind of burden on a desperate and somewhat emotionally stunted 14 year old girl? Particularly considering that between the fireflies' own admission of the slim liklihood of a cure and logs chroniciling various members' fuckups and stupidity ,they kind of seem like a bunch of useless, manipulative asswipes even before they just assume Ellie is perfectly happy to turn her brain over to them. If Joel had woken up and been given a chance to talk to Ellie and hear her say "It's okay" before going off to cut her brain out, but instead they dope her up, wheel her straight into the operating room, and point a gun at Joel's head and dare him to make something of it. And he's supposed to entrust his surrogate daughter to these fuckwits, on the off chance they suddenly figure out how science works? gently caress that and gently caress them, I say.

Yeah, it was really hard to feel empathy for Marlene when Joel went WAY above and beyond to basically get Ellie to the hospital, and then she basically tells him to gently caress off and practically sentences him to death since the guard is about to escort him out without any gear whatsoever, not even a flashlight. And then her logs are all up on her high horse about how noble it is to do what she does, though we do get a glimpse of her human side, but at the end of the day she's just as selfish as Joel is, except instead of doing something out of selfish love for someone else, Marlene is instead selfishly pursuing the pipe dream of a cure, and the costs and lives be damned. She doesn't give a gently caress about anyone else, she just wants the credit for saving humanity. That last bit with her begging for her life and Joel blowing her brains out... goddamn. He was 100% right, of course, but you could see she was basically just a shattered mess that was putting on a tough boss affect because she was just afraid of actually coming to terms with reality and the truth, which is ultimately demonstrated so eloquently by how she begs for her life because she's terrified of dying, but has shown that she has little respect for anyone else's life.

al-azad
May 28, 2009



Spiritus Nox posted:

On the other hand, is it really fair to put that kind of burden on a desperate and somewhat emotionally stunted 14 year old girl? Particularly considering that between the fireflies' own admission of the slim liklihood of a cure and logs chroniciling various members' fuckups and stupidity ,they kind of seem like a bunch of useless, manipulative asswipes even before they just assume Ellie is perfectly happy to turn her brain over to them. If Joel had woken up and been given a chance to talk to Ellie and hear her say "It's okay" before going off to cut her brain out, but instead they dope her up, wheel her straight into the operating room, and point a gun at Joel's head and dare him to make something of it. And he's supposed to entrust his surrogate daughter to these fuckwits, on the off chance they suddenly figure out how science works? gently caress that and gently caress them, I say.

The Fireflies were the biggest element of the story that pissed me off. If you've seen Children of Men, the Fishes only want Kee as a political tool to be used against the government. I was expecting the Fireflies in the game to be the same way and while it's never explicitly stated in the game, I can't help but see this as their sole motivation in the story. The Fireflies exist for what, exactly? The anti-thesis of the military? A group responsible for tighter security and more brutality from the only faction that's trying to maintain order in the world? You never know their motivation or creed, they're just an anti-military group like the Hunters except they're not a band of roving murderers.

If the Fireflies offered their resources to the military and perhaps explained what was going on, everything would have been avoided. And while this is pure speculation, I can only imagine them synthesizing a cure and using it as a recruitment tool. "Get cured, joined the resistance!"

Spiritus Nox
Sep 2, 2011

Trust us, we're highly trained medical professionals bears.


ImpAtom posted:

She would have. She specifically quotes Tess and what Tess talked about before she died not long before the whole thing happens. Everything that happened with Sam basically existed to get her into that mindset. Everything we know about Ellie basically sets her up as someone who would inevitably make that decisions and Joel knows it. That is why he has to lie to her.

So? She's 14. And rash, and optimistic, and even a bit naive for her circumstances. The fireflies were a bunch of fuckwits who didn't care about her, had only a vague idea of what they were doing, and barely a shadow of a chance of actually doing any good. They actively concealed the existance of other immune from her and Joel and talked up her importance like she was a guaranteed savior. Manipulative little shits. Ellie would have been wrong to give her brain to them, and Joel would have been wrong to let it happen.

ghost bones
Apr 27, 2013

everyone is fabulous always


Fuzz posted:

Yeah, I think the fundamental flaw to this sort of judgment call is that gamers, through the process of being gamers and not making hard or moral choices basically ever, have a fundamental lack of empathy when it comes to gaming. It's a construct in our heads that prevents us from getting emotionally invested in our character as he falls on yet another pit of spikes or kills another hundred questionably Russian soldiers.

Man, I know that the whimpering noises that Sarah made as she died in the beginning hit me like a punch in the gut. That's probably in large part to me actually having a kid, and being able to more immediately relate to how awful losing a child would be.

I think some goon was complaining that that scene didn't have any impact because you knew she was dead anyway.

Fuzz
Jun 2, 2003

I'm an annoying drama queen fuckass with an online videogame grudge, but I still love Starfleet Dental

al-azad posted:

If the Fireflies offered their resources to the military and perhaps explained what was going on, everything would have been avoided. And while this is pure speculation, I can only imagine them synthesizing a cure and using it as a recruitment tool. "Get cured, joined the resistance!"

Yeah, they were basically just another set of assholes that wanted the credit and to have the power. That's the whole point, really. The only blameless and genuinely "good" characters in the game are Tommy and his wife, who go to great lengths to try and foster a family and community and live peacefully on their own without bothering anyone else. They're the only truly noble characters in the game, from what we see. Though Tommy of course has the dark past as a raider and then a firefly himself.

jabro
Mar 25, 2003


Kobra Kommandant


- Superbowl XXXV -
Ravens 35, Giants 7


ImpAtom posted:

She would have. She specifically quotes Tess and what Tess talked about before she died not long before the whole thing happens. Everything that happened with Sam basically existed to get her into that mindset. Everything we know about Ellie basically sets her up as someone who would inevitably make that decisions and Joel knows it. That is why he has to lie to her.

She was doing so with thinking she was the cure. Not they have no clue if she is the cure or not, or even if they know what to do with her brain to find out. She is a lotto ticket with about the same odds she will pay off. If she knew the complete truth she might not be so willing to go to Salt Lake.

Spiritus Nox
Sep 2, 2011

Trust us, we're highly trained medical professionals bears.


ghost bones posted:

I think some goon was complaining that that scene didn't have any impact because you knew she was dead anyway.

Anyone who isn't at all affected by Baker's performance (and the kid's as well - that loving whimpering. ) in that scene has no soul. Though I will say it hit me harder because I didn't actually follow this game too hard in prerelease, so I thought Sarah was actually Ellie's character and that Joel was the goner.

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jabro
Mar 25, 2003


Kobra Kommandant


- Superbowl XXXV -
Ravens 35, Giants 7


Fuzz posted:

Yeah, they were basically just another set of assholes that wanted the credit and to have the power. That's the whole point, really. The only blameless and genuinely "good" characters in the game are Tommy and his wife, who go to great lengths to try and foster a family and community and live peacefully on their own without bothering anyone else. They're the only truly noble characters in the game, from what we see. Though Tommy of course has the dark past as a raider and then a firefly himself.

What about Ish? He is out to sea, almost kills a huge whale, comes back to land since he out of supplies, starts an underground commune, it gets overtaken by infected, he escapes, and Naughty Dog better make DLC explaining what happens next.

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