Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Locked thread
Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos
I have been following this thread for a while, and I find myself of a different opinion than when I had started. I used to go with the "well, if there's nothing wrong with it, why are they against labeling it?!" crowd in terms of GMO, and thought that organic growing was more sustainable; my view of nuclear plants was also very much of the environmental consensus variety. I am now seriously questioning all of these.

More selfishly, I am now wondering whether overspending on organic food provides me with anything more than a placebo effect and a lighter wallet.

Is there anywhere to start reading something serious about these issues? Let's say, starting with the latter: which types of organic/freerange/grassfed is actually helpful? I do like the free-range eggs better, and I know that's not what people have discussed in the thread, but I would like to have some information with which to make more intelligent decisions, and then start arguing with my friends, many of which are probably more of the Atomkraft: Nein Danke and No GMO persuasion.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos

Hypha posted:

Maybe somebody has a better recommendation but from my perspective, there is no nice little approachable book like you find for the anti-GMO crowd. Please note, I am from a grains perspective, so I have limited ability to comfortably talk about anything to do with animals. The pro-literature is more-so in scientific journals and agronomic trials and they don't have the same narrative. Statements like "more parasitic mycorrhizal associations were encouraged in an organic system compared to the conventional control" do not grab audiences but it is from where I get my opinions. Sadly, a lot of these resources are not free to the public. Man, how wonderful it would be if all science was open-source.

To put it bluntly, as an industry, we have lost. Our narrative is poo poo and all parties have little interest to get engaged. Farmers do not want to argue with urban "yuppies" on how to do their jobs; few scientists have the luxury or ability to be Carl Sagan of biotech and business has the power to not have to care. I wish I could point you to something nice but I got nothing that is suitably unbiased and also easy to read. There is a huge communication problem from the farm gate to the table and right now, there is no solution. I can't ask you to just trust me either, that would be just an appeal to authority and no authority is good enough here.

All I got is that Organic is no magic bullet.

E: To argue for the other side, the best impact for organic will not be found on the farm but in the city. Cities produce little to no food and has killed more good soil than probably anything modern agriculture has done. If the developed world is serious about organic production, food has to start coming from more than just the grocery store. Probably the only safe way to increase usable arable land enough to match conventional production. It is a good idea no matter what side of the debate you are on. Personally, I don't have a lawn. I have a vegetable patch.

Yeah, quite a few people around here are into urban agriculture; I haven't had the chance to have an apartment or house where I even have the possibility of doing anything about that myself, though. As for non-free sources, I have some access through my university, so if you have a couple of nice citations, I'll put them somewhere on the back burner for later perusal.

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos
As seen in an anarchist infoshop near you:


:ghost:SO WHAT ABOUT BIOTECHNOLOGY??!:spooky:

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos

Tight Booty Shorts posted:

Because most corn is used for purposes other than to feed people.
Let's assume you reply with a good explanation of why those other purposes are bad.

Still, it would make more sense to grow corn more efficiently so that whole fields can be freed up to either grow other things or allow wildlife to take it over again.

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos

karthun posted:

So why is Cuba's yield for rice (2700 lb per acre) less than half what the US's is (7694 lb per acre)?

Because apparently an improvement from total dependence on import is not the same as improvement from modern high-yield methods.

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos
To tie some of these allegedly conflicting views together, it seems that biodiversity is actually very important for making better GMO's, as well as for drug discovery: transgenic properties are usually discovered in wild organisms, rather than invented from whole cloth. The fewer wild varieties and species there are, the less likely you are to find the genes you would want to use to improve crops, whether through the old-fashioned way or through molecular biology. The WWF link here actually explains the history of this quite well.

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos

icantfindaname posted:

Okay, millions of people would be dying of vitamin deficiency if not for golden rice and other biotech products. Is that better?
Just to comment that Golden Rice has still not been used to help fight vitamin A deficiency. I believe a post about this was referred to a few pages back in this same thread.

While looking that up, I ran into this page by Greenpeace:

quote:

GE 'Golden' rice has been in development for over 20 years. The tens of millions of dollars invested in GE 'Golden' rice would have been better spent on VAD solutions that are already available and working, such as food supplements, food fortification and home gardening. Greenpeace believes that, by combating VAD with ecologically farmed home and community gardens, sustainable systems are created that provide food security and diversity in a way that is empowering people, protects biodiversity, and ensures a long-lasting solution to VAD and malnutrition.

What a pile of disingenuous tripe. They encourage opposition to not-for-profit research into Golden Rice and then trash it for not having been tested well enough.

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos
I'm not sure this particular harmful scientific monster has appeared in this thread, so I present to you, the ADD-causing, cancer-inducing, kid-hating phenomenon: :ghost: wifi in schools! :siren:

Metroland posted:

Readin’, Ritin’, Radiation

WiFi in school classrooms is the wave of the future, but critics warn that daylong exposure may not be the healthiest choice for our children

[I]t does seem like New York state is moving forward with the Wi-Fi in public schools. Here is an excerpt from a Power Point presentation at the April 8 Stillwater Board of Education meeting regarding Gov. Andrew Cuomo’s Smart Schools bond referendum.
...
The push to embrace technology and implement Wi-Fi throughout our schools has gained such momentum that districts resisting the rush, such as the Waterford-Halfmoon Union Free School District, are barely noticed.

And that, according UAlbany Professor David Carpenter, director of the university’s Institute for Health and the Environment, is cause for concern.

“I’ve been sort of a spokesperson for this issue [of Wi-Fi health implications],” Carpenter says. “I can’t seem to escape it. I testified to the President’s [Obama’s] cancer panel three years ago, and I testified to the House of Representatives.” The professor also is outspoken on the subjects of fracking, electromagnetic fields from appliances and waste sites, wind turbines, and other environmental health topics.

He’s been studying radiation effects on children since the 1980s. “We confirmed the previous observations that children who live in homes that are very close to power lines are more likely to have leukemia,” he says. “There are now appearing studies of leukemia around cell phone towers and around radio transmission towers.”

Carpenter thinks that cell phone and Wi-Fi radiation are similar. “The exposure that you get from using Wi-Fi is exactly the same. I have Wi-Fi in my home; it’s not like I am vehemently opposed to Wi-Fi in all circumstances. But the issue with schools is that in an electronic computer room in a school where every kid has a wireless laptop, you are going to have a hotbed of radio frequency radiation. Every child in that room is going to get radio frequency radiation that at some level probably will be approaching that which they would get if they were on a cell phone.”
...
Carpenter believes that school administrators are in the dark on this topic. “They want to be contemporary with technology, and I don’t disagree with that at all,” he says. “I think it’s just not responsible for school administrators to implement a program that may put students at risk both of developing diseases like cancer and impairing their ability to learn, when there are alternatives [namely wired Internet] that don’t do that.”

Ray Pealer, a community health advocate living in Vermont who runs wifiiinschools.com, notes that while Wi-Fi advocates reference that school Wi-Fi routers function within FCC (Federal Communications Commission) safety standards, he thinks that those standards are inadequate. “They do not recognize any biological effects other than heat, despite thousands of peer-reviewed studies showing a myriad of other effects,” he says.

In 2012, [U.S. Rep. Dennis] Kucinich endorsed a bill requiring cell phones to have warnings similar to those on cigarette packs. “It’s not going to be easy to make the legislative process work in this case because of the enormous financial resources the industry has at its disposal,” he said in September 2012.

Radiation studies go back to at least 1932, when “microwave or radio sickness” was reported by the British NAVY as fatigue, insomnia, headaches, high susceptibility to infection and general anxiety. Carpenter adds that these concerns are amplified for kids. “There are reports of reduced ability for kids to learn, there appear to be some people that are particularly sensitive to radiation and respond by having headaches, fatigue, ringing in their ears.”

The World Health Organization has been studying the radiation effects on children since 2009; however it has no official recommended safety level for any age group. Pealer adds, “There is evidence, it’s growing that if you are younger then the risk is even greater than if you are older. That is a concern because these days every kid has a cell phone.”

Pealer references a Yale School of Medicine study indicating that wireless exposure causes ADD (attention deficit disorder) in mice. According to YaleNews, “Their conclusion was that exposure to radiation from cell phones during pregnancy effects the brain development of offspring, potentially leading to hyperactivity.” Another 2008 study at the University of California-Los Angeles, titled “Prenatal and Postnatal Exposure,” linked cell phone exposure with hyperactivity.

Not every study draws the conclusion that wireless is potentially dangerous to humans, including a recently released study in New Zealand indicating that Wi-Fi exposure to children is relatively harmless.

The International Agency for Research on Cancer of the World Health Organization officially classifies Wi-Fi radiation as a “possible carcinogen.” Carpenter explains that means Wi-Fi gets a three on a one-to-five scale. “Known is the strongest, then probable, then possible, then not, and finally unclassifiable.” Other IARC possible carcinogens include asbestos, lead, paint, and DDT.

“It means that the evidence is suggestive but not absolutely definitive,” says Carpenter. “There is evidence that people exposed to high radio frequency fields are more likely to develop cancer. But they can’t quite say that the cancer was caused by those fields because that evidence is still being looked at. And that evidence is primarily from studying cell phones.”

The professor further compares cell phone studies to Wi-Fi. “The difference is that most people don’t stay on a cell phone more than 10 minutes, maybe. Sitting in a classroom, you can be there all day. What we are concerned about is both the intensity and the duration.” He notes that school Wi-Fi routers are advertised as “industrial strength,” stronger than home routers because they service more computers.

A report in 1971 by the U.S. Naval Medical Research Institute, obtained through the Freedom of Information Law, suggests that the wireless industry may be withholding information about potential danger. An excerpt reads, “If the more advanced nations of the West are strict in enforcement of stringent exposure standards, there could be unfavorable effects an industrial output and military functions.” The NMRI documented more than 2,300 research articles citing more than 120 illnesses associated with non-ionizing (non-heating) microwave radiation.

Carpenter says that the most practical solution is to use cables. “No one is going to deny that kids should be using technology and the Internet. A wired computer lab gives you no exposure whatsoever to radio frequency radiation. From my judgment, there is just no reason to go to a wireless school computer lab.”

Pealer says that we can use hands-free devices for our cell phones, and use line phones instead of DECT (digital enhanced cordless telecommunications) cordless phones, which emit radiation even when not in use. He also recommends that people who are regularly exposed to these technologies take supplements such as vitamin C, ginseng and antioxidants to counter radiation effects.

More government regulation might be a hard sell in the United States, but some European nations have taken steps to ban or limit cell phone use among children, and the Council of Europe has recommended that Wi-Fi be banned from all schools in Europe. San Francisco is considering putting warning labels (like those proposed by Kucinich) on cell phones.

Carpenter warns against becoming too paranoid. “I think that one has to have some perspective, as one cannot avoid all the different things that could be dangerous. If you can do things that decrease your exposure that are not expensive, that are not terribly difficult, even if the evidence for how dangerous it is still somewhat debatable. It’s still stupid not to do that.”

Pealer counters that some of us aren’t paranoid enough. “A lot of people, when they hear the term ‘research,’ they disqualify themselves. Also because wireless technology is so popular, people are so addicted to it, that they don’t really want to look at the issue.”

“My public responsibility is to protect people from getting sick even if we don’t have all of the answers of what the mechanism is,” concludes Carpenter, “In this situation, I think it is extremely unsafe to go to Wi-Fi in schools. Of all places, schools should be the last.”

Anyone with any familiarity with the issue want to comment? On the surface it seems ludicrous to connect non-ionizing radiation to cancer, and it seems that even the research they are bringing up mostly has to do with pregnancy, not childhood, but I'm just a physicist in training.

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos
The fear of WiFi couldn't sustain me long, so I think it's time to go back to :siren:Monsanto:siren:. From an OP in Aljazeera:

quote:

A recent US Department of Agriculture study of the first 15 years of US experience with transgenic crops concluded that the technology had produced only limited and uneven yield improvements over conventional hybrid varieties of maize. The main benefit, when there was one, came in the reduced need for labour, since insect-resistant transgenic maize reduces pesticide applications and herbicide-tolerant varieties reduce manual weeding by allowing the liberal spraying of entire fields with Monsanto's Round-Up weed-killer.
Nothing misleading here. I mean, it's not like one could easily check that the summary of the study is saying anything different:

quote:

The adoption of Bt crops increases yields by mitigating yield losses from insects. However, empirical evidence regarding the effect of HT crops on yields is mixed. Generally, stacked seeds (seeds with more than one GE trait) tend to have higher yields than conventional seeds or than seeds with only one GE trait. GE corn with stacked traits grew from 1 percent of corn acres in 2000 to 71 percent in 2013. Stacked seed varieties also accounted for 67 percent of cotton acres in 2013.

Planting Bt cotton and Bt corn seed is associated with higher net returns when pest pressure is high. The extent to which HT adoption affects net returns is mixed and depends primarily on how much weed control costs are reduced and seed costs are increased. HT soybean adoption is associated with an increase in total household income because HT soybeans require less management and enable farmers to generate income via off-farm activities or by expanding their operations.

Farmers generally use less insecticide when they plant Bt corn and Bt cotton. Corn insecticide use by both GE seed adopters and nonadopters has decreased—only 9 percent of all U.S. corn farmers used insecticides in 2010. Insecticide use on corn farms declined from 0.21 pound per planted acre in 1995 to 0.02 pound in 2010. This is consistent with the steady decline in European corn borer populations over the last decade that has been shown to be a direct result of Bt adoption. The establishment of minimum refuge requirements (planting sufficient acres of the non-Bt crop near the Bt crop) has helped delay the evolution of Bt resistance. However, there are some indications that insect resistance is developing to some Bt traits in some areas.

The adoption of HT crops has enabled farmers to substitute glyphosate for more toxic and persistent herbicides. However, an overreliance on glyphosate and a reduction in the diversity of weed management practices adopted by crop producers have contributed to the evolution of glyphosate resistance in 14 weed species and biotypes in the United States. Best management practices (BMPs) to control weeds may help delay the evolution of resistance and sustain the efficacy of HT crops. BMPs include applying multiple herbicides with different modes of action, rotating crops, planting weed-free seed, scouting fields routinely, cleaning equipment to reduce the transmission of weeds to other fields, and maintaining field borders.

Nope, reduction of labor is the only clear advantage. :rolleyes:

Another amusing and telling tidbit from the OP:

quote:

I asked Monsanto officials whether their goal was just to open up yellow maize markets in Mexico to transgenics. It made no sense to me. The seed provider already has the Mexican market for yellow maize seeds; 90 percent of US maize is in GM seeds, and that is the source for Mexico's imports of yellow maize. Monsanto's seed market won't get bigger because some of the seeds get planted in Mexico.

The response was surprisingly clear.

"In order for the penetration of biotechnology crops to be successful, it will have to be for both white and yellow corn," said Jaime Mijares Noriega, the company's Latin America Director for Corporate Affairs. "If it was only yellow, we would not be investing."

I was shocked. Why would company officials, in the middle of a lawsuit, state so openly that their goal is to put transgenic maize into Mexican tortillas?
It's as if they don't think that Mexicans share his anti-GMO hysteria! Insane!

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos
It's been more than a month before I've posted GMO bullshit! Can't have that!


quote:

GMO Inside has partnered on releasing the film Unacceptable Levels! Your purchase helps us continue our work! http://ykr.be/24b4k9a6x Ed Brown presents, Unacceptable Levels a story of how the chemical revolution brought us to where we are, and where, if we’re not vigilant, it may take us. This film poses challenges to our companies, our government, and our society to do something about a nearly-unseen threat with the inspired knowledge that small changes can generate a massive impact. Buy or rent a copy here: http://ykr.be/24b4k9a6x ‪#‎food‬ ‪#‎chemical‬ ‪#‎contamination‬

A comment posted this other pile of misinformation:

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos
How dare I argue with experts! Under a friend's Facebook post (I'm Anderer; Phil Anderer):




Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos

Ytlaya posted:

You have a lot more patience than me. I would have also gone the "compare with Kosher" route, though I think that after a while you should have just limited your posts to a demand that someone explain the difference; if you say too much stuff it makes it too easy for people to pick and choose what they want to respond to and ignore everything else.

I seriously need to fight my urge to ramble and just open myself to attack like this, you're absolutely right. I think I'll stick to "what would be a sufficient testing regime; why is the current regime deficient" and "why is GMO free different from Kosher", depending on which of the two arguments is pursued.

ETA:
Speaking of rambling, a very long argument in defense of Monsanto, linked from another discussion:

The New Yorker posted:

Why the Climate Corporation Sold Itself to Monsanto

For this week’s issue of the magazine, I wrote about the Climate Corporation, a company that is trying to deploy a vast and growing trove of data to help farmers cope with the increasingly severe fluctuations in weather caused by climate change, in much the way that Google organizes and presents the world’s information. The New York Times, citing a forthcoming report from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, also noted this weekend that warming trends will pose an increased risk to the world’s food supply in the coming decades.

While I was reporting the piece, David Friedberg, the Climate Corporation’s thirty-three-year-old chief executive, told me that Monsanto had agreed to purchase the company for about a billion dollars. The deal was finalized last week. The Climate Corporation, which has nearly two hundred scientists trying to make sense of fifty terabytes of weather data every day, will continue to operate as an independent unit, but I was surprised at Friedberg’s decision, because many food activists consider Monsanto to be the definitively evil corporation. Friedberg was not prepared for the response from his family, friends, and colleagues. (“When I shared the news with my dad recently, his first reaction was, ‘Monsanto? The most evil company in the world? I thought you were trying to make the world a BETTER place?’”)

Friedberg is deeply methodical; his research led him to believe that the common view of Monsanto was simply wrong. He wrote a letter to everyone who works for the Climate Corporation explaining the decision, and he has agreed to let me post it here. It is frank and explicit: “I am not the kind of person that would take easily to partnering with a company that ‘poisons the world’s food system,’ lays waste to the land, puts farmers out of business, or creates a monoculture that threatens the global food supply,” he writes.

It is not possible to assert publicly that Monsanto is anything other than venal without being accused of being a sellout, a fraud, or worse. If Friedberg doesn’t know that, he will soon learn, as I did many years ago. No matter what you think you know about Monsanto, Friedberg’s letter is worth reading. He is an ambitious man and his goals are not minor: “The people of The Climate Corporation are going to lead the world to revolutionary solutions to historic problems,” he writes. I have no idea if he will succeed, but for the sake of us all, I certainly hope so.

He sent me the following version of his letter:

David Friedberg posted:

Folks:

I understand there are a lot of questions emerging about the Monsanto partnership. I’m certain a number of you have been feeling assaulted by friends and family about “joining up with Monsanto” and that you feel ill-equipped to respond to claims and accusations made about the company.

For some of us, this is a very difficult time. I understand and want to try and address concerns head-on and make sure everyone feels like they have the appropriate context and information needed to feel informed, comfortable, and hopefully, excited about the unique opportunity in front of us.

When I shared the news with my dad recently, his first reaction was “Monsanto?! The most evil company in the world?! I thought you were trying to make the world a BETTER place?” Now, my Dad has a bit of a dramatic flare (might be where I get it from), generally tends towards reading “liberal” blogs as his primary news source, and likes to quickly jump to big hefty conclusions, but I was not prepared for the sort of reaction I got from him. In fact, it hurt to hear this from my close family—especially after all of the work needed to get to this point and with so much excitement about what was ahead; to be chastised for this exciting decision was really really hard. So, I started sending my dad information, talked to him at length about GMOs, the history and business practices of Monsanto, and the future we could now enable, and, ultimately, he understood my perspective. In fact, he actually started sharing my enthusiasm, telling some of his friends over the past few days how they have it all wrong. It definitely took me a while to get him to that point—I had many months of research behind me to prepare for those conversations and the conversations themselves were lengthy and detailed.

Now I know a lot of you don’t yet feel that well informed, making it very difficult for YOU to respond to the family member or recruiter that emails you with the awful subject line “Do you REALLY want to work at the MOST EVIL COMPANY IN THE WORLD??!!”.

Like I said the other night when we announced the news, I too knew very little about Monsanto when we first met with them. I knew they were a big agribusiness and had some reputation issues, which followed my reading of various websites and blogs. As I dug in, it all changed for me. And I found myself shifting from saying we’d never sell our company to being more excited than I’ve ever been about the impact possible through our work.

In 2004, I was working at Google when we announced Gmail. At the time, it was an extraordinary revolution—1GB of free email! Prior to that, I think you had to pay lots of money for anything 10MB or more. To make this service free, Google used its automated advertising system (AdSense) to identify keywords from the content in an email and provide keyword-triggered ads on the right side of the page. There was outrage over this “evil” technology (see http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/04/03/google_mail_is_evil_privacy/). In addition to “reading your emails”, Google was accused of storing all your email for the Federal government to read, and Google now CONTROLED ALL YOUR INFORMATION. This blossomed into a nuclear mushroom cloud of evil-calling. A silent sadness fell over everyone for creating something they never thought of as “evil”—they were creating a great free product for the world that could make email as accessible as web browsing, helping billions of people around the world communicate more easily with one another. Over time, as the benefits of the service were better understood, the pundits learned about the complicated technology that enabled Gmail and its advertising system, and more people fell in love with its utility, the noise died down.

Calling a company evil is easy. And if you do it enough times it can become the “reality”—because reality is just the most common perception. Say something enough times and everyone thinks it’s the truth.

Generally, things that are big or revolutionary are the easiest targets. I think this is because, ultimately, people can feel out of control in the face of very new and very big things. This is especially true for new technologies delivered on a large scale. As Arthur C. Clarke commented “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.” Meaning it can’t really be understood at first. Done at scale, something that can’t really be understood can be very scary. And the reaction is to call it evil. And find reasons to frame it as evil.

For a long time, Google was evil. Sometimes, Apple is evil. Sometimes, Microsoft is evil. Over the course of history, both Republicans and Democrats have been labeled evil by the populous. Nowadays, Monsanto is frequently labeled as evil. As has been the case throughout history, with new and revolutionary science, Monsanto has delivered hugely impactful technology and people don’t understand the science, see it working at scale, and don’t mind it being labeled as evil. And so, a mushroom cloud of evil sentiment has emerged.

From Galileo to Servetus to Mendel to Einstein. Revolutionary science has always incited visceral hatred on a mass scale. Galileo told us that the Bible was wrong and he was chastised for denying the word of God. Mendel was engaged in the devil’s work. And Einstein “invented a weapon that killed millions” because of his original theories of physics.

It’s a lot easier for a reaction to something new to turn into repeated statements of evil, supported by anecdote and innuendo, and eventually turn into a meme, ultimately becoming the commonplace perception. Melissa McEwen is a blogger who writes about sustainable agriculture and healthy eating. She recently penned an article titled “Just Kale Me: How your Kale habit is slowly destroying your health and the world”. She chastised Kale (a very healthy vegetable) as being deadly (http://huntgatherlove.com/content/just-kale-me-how-your-kale-habit-slowly-destroying-your-health-and-world). She used innuendo, extrapolation, unscientific references, out-of-context facts and statements to make her point. Her “fake” article spread like wildfire and for about a day was considered “truth” by many “healthy living” bloggers and readers alike. The very next day, she edited the article and admitted to the truth—she was trying to make a point that it is so easy to demonize something without clear logic and fact, and still get everyone to believe you and repeat the bottom line. Her declaration was that when you read “an article that demonizes a food, think about whether or not there are citations and follow those citations”. Her article struck me as very poignant, in light of all the GMO research I had been doing in the prior weeks. There are so many articles (some are repeatedly published) that are wholly inaccurate, based in half-science, extrapolation, innuendo, and out-of-context rhetoric. When I did my own research—to the source and in the science—I was amazed at how far these inaccurate statements had gone and how wrong so many people were, thinking they were right because they repeated the same things others did.

Perhaps Monsanto should have adopted the mantra that Paul Bucheit so cleverly and timely introduced at Google in 2000—“don’t be evil”. Just saying that was their mantra has helped Google countless times avoid the evil designation that so many people have tried to hurl their way over the years. It has worked.

Did you know: Google sues more of its customers each year than Monsanto does? Google spends 3 times as much as Monsanto on Federal lobbying? There are more ex-Googlers in the Obama administration than there are ex-Monsanto employees?

I could go on. But a lot of the “bad things” being said about Monsanto are simple truths about the nature of doing business at scale. On the list of top lobbyists on payroll in DC, Monsanto is not even in the top 50. The “Monsanto Protection Act” is actually called the “Farmer Assurance Provision” and was drafted and written by a number of farm groups, including the American Farm Bureau Federation, American Soybean Association, National Corn Growers, and others, to help ensure farmers aren’t denied the right to grow crops that are approved and regulated by the Federal agencies, protecting them from emerging state propositions that aren’t based on science or research.

It seems to me that innuendo, anecdotal evidence, and out of context facts are used to support a simple statement—“the company is evil”—and are rooted in a lack of understanding and fear of the unknown.

In high school I started and was the President of the environmental club—we named it “Students H.O.P.E. (Students Healing Our Planet Earth)”. We ran campaigns, attended rallies, cleaned the beach, organized Earth Day events, and we even had our own green t-shirt that my friend designed.

I am also a vegetarian. I’ve never eaten chicken, fish, or meat in my life. My parents are pseudo-hippies and always taught me that we should try and avoid harming the world and do as much good as possible. Since I was very young, I’ve tried my best. When the first Toyota Prius came out in 2003, I ordered it months before I could even test drive the car. At home, I compost, recycle, and avoid bottled water.

I am not the kind of person that would take easily to partnering with a company that “poison’s the world’s food system”, lays waste to the land, puts farmers out of business, or creates a monoculture that threatens the global food supply. I make decisions as a scientist. Since I was a kid, I’ve loved science, and believe that truth in the world comes from science. So, I have allowed myself to be informed by science and fact as I have explored this partnership opportunity for The Climate Corporation.

Humans have genetically engineered seeds for 11,000 years, primarily through seed breeding, where we “got rid of” the traits we didn’t want and introduced the traits we did. Modern advancements in science have allowed for those genetic advances to be much more organized and specific, rather than haphazard, over time. The notion of introducing specific genes into specific places to create a protein that did not evolve through a natural process has been a breakthrough—one that is hard to understand and comprehend, but powerful in its implications. And through science, we can study the efficacy and risks of this technology. I have read the science—it was not a short and easy effort. And I think Monsanto has created amazing and safe technology. It took me a while to get there. You should take your time, learn about their science, and I’m certain you will get you there too.

As for the history of their company, their business practices, and their future, I suggest you take your time to fully understand these matters—they are not simple and can’t be summarized in a simple sentence or two.

The Monsanto of today is a conglomerate of seed companies that were acquired in the 1990s and 2000s, bundled together, and spun out as a separate company. This new agriculture company was formed to incorporate new science and technology in the development of seed, providing farmers with the ability to create more food with less land, water, and chemicals than had been previously possible.

Monsanto executives debated a new name for that new company, and determined it would cost them $40 million to develop a new brand. They decided to save the money and, in my opinion, made the biggest mistake they ever made. The old Monsanto chemical business would be renamed Pharmacia and was sold to Pfizer and the new seed company would be named Monsanto and spun out as a “new Monsanto”, to this day tarnished by legacy products of an entirely different chemicals business (now owned by Pfizer).

Now, there are some other really important tactical questions that I want to answer directly about our future as “part of Monsanto”. We are going to continue to operate and exist as The Climate Corporation, as an independently run business, owned by Monsanto. We had 100+ shareholders, now we have 1. We used to have a Board, now we don’t. We are not going to be “integrated” into Monsanto. We will not be forcibly “integrated” into IFS or FieldScripts or any of those other products/groups. (We may, at some point, choose on our own to propose some partnerships with other groups at Monsanto). No one will “work for Monsanto”—everyone still works for The Climate Corporation, with the same roles, titles, and responsibilities as you do today. Monsanto does not “set our policy”—what we do, how we operate, and our culture are still our decisions. I am a member of the executive committee at Monsanto, so I can help lobby for resources and data that we may want.

If at any point, you aren’t doing work that you’re passionate about, or we’re operating in a way that doesn’t meet your model or standards, then you can very simply walk away. It is my job to make sure that doesn’t happen. It is my job to keep our culture intact, our team happy, and our work exciting and impactful. I wouldn’t do this if that weren’t the plan.

When the Monsanto team first showed up here, they said “what you have here is really extraordinary; we could really mess this up,” which is exactly why they’ve agreed to let us run independently. They made it really clear that THEY WANT TO LEARN FROM US.

We have an opportunity to be a model for the broader Monsanto organization about how we operate. Our DNA is what makes us who we are, and it might frame for the bigger Monsanto who they want to be in the future. Let’s take advantage of that—the biggest agribusiness in the world can now be modeled by us. That is why this opportunity is so exciting. There is no bigger platform to impact the world. Our work can dramatically change how most people do what they do, to survive and thrive.

I will ensure we get the resources we need to exceed our wildest aspirations—from developing our own satellite and radar systems to opening new engineering offices to launching in new markets. We should aim to be aggressive, impactful, and revolutionary in our science.

Now, none of your questions or concerns will feel fully addressed in 24 hours, and maybe not even for a few weeks. This is going to be a learning process (you don’t learn an entire subject on the first day of class). Those of us that have had some time with Monsanto over the past few months believe that this is the most exciting thing possible for our company and our work. You should not be beholden to rhetoric (on either side of the debate) in determining what it is you want to do with your life, with whom, and how. We are still The Climate Corporation, but you should inform yourself with facts, knowledge, and an understanding of the company that now owns our shares.

The people of The Climate Corporation are going to lead the world to revolutionary solutions to historic problems. This partnership enables us with capital, data, and reach we would not have had on our own.

Let us not be deterred or distracted by misinformation, fear, or anecdote. Let us not be unduly influenced by unfair social pressure. Be strong. Let science and fact guide you. Learn about our opportunity. Learn about our partnership. Take your time.

Eventually, you can inform; but make sure you take the time to first be informed.

We only live one life and should make sure that the work we are engaged in and the way we work delivers to us what we want from our short time here. I believe that is what I am doing and know that all of you will eventually feel the same.

Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 07:03 on Jul 4, 2014

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos

Absurd Alhazred posted:

How dare I argue with experts! Under a friend's Facebook post (I'm Anderer; Phil Anderer):






IT KEEPS HAPPENING (Will Power is now Curt N. Call, the rest are new)



I'm thinking I'll respond by stressing the comparison to Kosher foods and demanding that if there is evidence for issues with a GMO product, it can be taken off the market, like trans-fats.

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos

Anosmoman posted:

Keep asking for evidence and make him back up the claim that transgenic seeds can't co-exist with organic seeds. Maybe point out that mutagenic strains can legally be grown in organic fields and organic companies happily market food that was created with RADIATION as organic with no reference to how they were created. You could also point out that you could probably produce toxic crop strains through selective breeding if you were so inclined so therefore...?

But sure, let's have labelling - the "GMO", "Mutagenic" and "Artificial design" labels should cover pretty much all the crops on market today.

But you don't understand, he linked to a book. So now I would have to have second-hand arguments with another source that this idiot will repeatedly misrepresent. It's a losing direction to go.

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos

Martin Random posted:

Who wouldn't behave in a bizarre way under such circumstances?
Anyone who made sure to eat fruits and vegetables when they are in season, and aimed for ones that were grown nearby, when possible, instead of blaming this on GMO's or the horrors of industrial agriculture. My salad has tomatoes that were grown nearby, and this is Upstate New York. They taste delicious By the way, it's funny that you go for tomatoes and strawberries, both of which have no GMO variants on the market. And tomatoes can be grown anywhere and quickly, so it's easy to move to more flavorful ones, assuming the popular variants aren't and there's sudden consumer demand for that.

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos

Martin Random posted:

Yeah, I think you missed my point. If it were just about having tasty tomatoes, these folks would be growing tasty tomatoes themselves or buying heirloom varieties. But they'renot doing that. They're holding protest, spreading paranoid conspiracy stories about cancer, chemtrails, world trade organization conspiracies, and other crazy poo poo.

And somehow they are not open to rational discussion about it. That should be your big hint. Ever had a girlfriend or boyfriend who got all pissy about something in an unreasonable way, but they were really angry about something completely different which somehow, because of the dynamics of the relationship or social decorum eluded direct discussion?

These people aren't simply angry about not getting a tomato that tastes how they want it to taste. There's something more.

Yeah, great, you can grow hothouse tomatoes. PROTEST MOVEMENT SOLVED.

Sorry for being trite. That discussion left a bad taste in my mouth, and probably mixes in sentiments from the I/P thread. So... I guess I exemplify the problem of which you speak. :eng99:

Deteriorata posted:

That's not really his point. People are pissed about the commoditization of food, and can't figure out exactly what the problem is. GMOs became a symbol of this, of a creeping "progress" they don't really want. The problem isn't GMOs, but they've become a convenient scapegoat.

Consumers don't generally connect that the real problem is people wanting fresh tomatoes in January without paying anything extra. Flavorless fruits and vegetables are the grocers' response to the demand for fresh, cheap food out of season - but people tend to just see it as technology run amok.

It's rather like how plastics were blamed for all the world's problems a generation ago.

Then how am I to respond to reach out to these people? Is that even possible?

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos

peter banana posted:

um, wow. Thanks for the info. Glad I was buying certified organic stuff already. Without whining.

Certified by whom? I wonder about those organizations. How much oversight do they really have?

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos
From my personal experience, after years of buying only "free-range, organic brown" eggs, I switched to regular eggs, and they're both cheaper and look and taste exactly the same. I feel I've been scammed.

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos

FuriousxGeorge posted:

Well, at least free range generally asserts some less inhumane treatment for the birds. If you care about that sort of thing it can be a useful thing to know. If humaneness has any impact on taste or quality of the eggs? Not that I've ever noticed.

Well, according to that link, the USDA-based labels have minimal relevance to how well the chickens are treated. All the "free-" types only seem to indicate no cages, there don't seem to be any other restrictions on how much room they have. I'm not sure if I have access to that which is third-party certified. Although most of those those don't look too exacting, either.

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos

Nintendo Kid posted:

The current status of study is that we simply aren't sure, there's reports that lean both ways on the issue that are equally robust.

Are you certain? Have you updated your conclusions based on the study referred to here?

quote:

Study strengthens link between neonicotinoids and collapse of honey bee colonies

For immediate release: May 9, 2014

Boston, MA — Two widely used neonicotinoids—a class of insecticide—appear to significantly harm honey bee colonies over the winter, particularly during colder winters, according to a new study from Harvard School of Public Health (HSPH). The study replicated a 2012 finding from the same research group that found a link between low doses of imidacloprid and Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD), in which bees abandon their hives over the winter and eventually die. The new study also found that low doses of a second neonicotinoid, clothianidin, had the same negative effect.

Further, although other studies have suggested that CCD-related mortality in honey bee colonies may come from bees’ reduced resistance to mites or parasites as a result of exposure to pesticides, the new study found that bees in the hives exhibiting CCD had almost identical levels of pathogen infestation as a group of control hives, most of which survived the winter. This finding suggests that the neonicotinoids are causing some other kind of biological mechanism in bees that in turn leads to CCD.

The study appears online May 9, 2014 in the Bulletin of Insectology.

“We demonstrated again in this study that neonicotinoids are highly likely to be responsible for triggering CCD in honey bee hives that were healthy prior to the arrival of winter,” said lead author Chensheng (Alex) Lu, associate professor of environmental exposure biology at HSPH.

Since 2006, there have been significant losses of honey bees from CCD. Pinpointing the cause is crucial to mitigating this problem since bees are prime pollinators of roughly one-third of all crops worldwide. Experts have considered a number of possible causes, including pathogen infestation, beekeeping practices, and pesticide exposure. Recent findings, including a 2012 study by Lu and colleagues, suggest that CCD is related specifically to neonicotinoids, which may impair bees’ neurological functions. Imidacloprid and clothianidin both belong to this group.

Lu and his co-authors from the Worcester County Beekeepers Association studied the health of 18 bee colonies in three locations in central Massachusetts from October 2012 through April 2013. At each location, the researchers separated six colonies into three groups—one treated with imidacloprid, one with clothianidin, and one untreated.

There was a steady decline in the size of all the bee colonies through the beginning of winter—typical among hives during the colder months in New England. Beginning in January 2013, bee populations in the control colonies began to increase as expected, but populations in the neonicotinoid-treated hives continued to decline. By April 2013, 6 out of 12 of the neonicotinoid-treated colonies were lost, with abandoned hives that are typical of CCD. Only one of the control colonies was lost—thousands of dead bees were found inside the hive—with what appeared to be symptoms of a common intestinal parasite called Nosema ceranae.

While the 12 pesticide-treated hives in the current study experienced a 50% CCD mortality rate, the authors noted that, in their 2012 study, bees in pesticide-treated hives had a much higher CCD mortality rate—94%. That earlier bee die-off occurred during the particularly cold and prolonged winter of 2010-2011 in central Massachusetts, leading the authors to speculate that colder temperatures, in combination with neonicotinoids, may play a role in the severity of CCD.

“Although we have demonstrated the validity of the association between neonicotinoids and CCD in this study, future research could help elucidate the biological mechanism that is responsible for linking sub-lethal neonicotinoid exposures to CCD,” said Lu. “Hopefully we can reverse the continuing trend of honey bee loss.”

Funding for the study came from Wells Fargo Foundation and the Breck Fund at the Harvard University Center for the Environment.

“Sub-lethal exposure to neonicotinoids impaired honey bees winterization before proceeding to colony collapse disorder,” Chensheng Lu, Kenneth M. Warchol, Richard A. Callahan, Bulletin of Insectology, online Friday, May 9, 2014

Funny aside, though: neonicotinoids have nothing to do with either GMO or Monsanto! :pseudo:

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos

shrike82 posted:

Monsanto sells neonicotinoid pesticides.

No it doesn't:

quote:

Eight neonicotinoids from different companies are currently on the market.[7]
code:
Name 		Company 				Products 				Turnover ($M) (2009)
Imidacloprid 	Bayer CropScience 			Confidor, Admire, Gaucho, Advocate 	1,091
Thiamethoxam 	Syngenta 				Actara, Platinum, Cruiser 		627
Clothianidin 	Sumitomo Chemical/Bayer CropScience 	Poncho, Dantosu, Dantop 		439
Acetamiprid 	Nippon Soda 				Mospilan, Assail, ChipcoTristar 	276
Thiacloprid 	Bayer CropScience 			Calypso 				112
Dinotefuran 	Mitsui Chemicals 			Starkle, Safari, Venom 			79
Sulfoxaflor 	Dow Agrosciences 			Transform, Closer 			N/A
Nitenpyram 	Sumitomo Chemical 			Capstar, Bestguard 			8

You'll note that 0 of these are Monsanto. 3 of these are Bayer, though.

A GIANT PARSNIP posted:

Yes, Monsanto sucks like pretty much every company in the world. But much like pharmaceutical companies being lovely doesn't make vaccines or antibiotics bad, and Google/Microsoft/Apple/whatever being lovely doesn't make the internet bad, Monsanto being lovely doesn't make GMOs bad.

Frankly, there is so much bullshit FUDware spread about Monsanto that I don't think I've even managed to encounter a single thing that they allegedly did that proved to really be a heinous crime, as opposed to false accusations and deliberate misrepresentation.

Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 23:09 on Jul 6, 2014

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos
You thought Seralini's rat cancer paper could be stopped simply by being retracted?! :smug:

quote:

Paper claiming GM link with tumours republished

Change of journal does not convince critics that rat diseases were caused by genetically modified maize.


A controversial paper linking genetically modified maize to the development of tumours and other severe disease in rats, which was published in 2012 and retracted in 2013, has now been published again, by a different journal.

Four other journals offered to publish the paper, lead author Gilles-Eric Séralini says. He and his team chose the journal Environmental Sciences Europe, he says, because it is open access so would make the study’s findings available to the whole scientific community.

The paper that went online today1 was slightly amended from the original, notably in the way the data were analysed. Four of the authors, including Séralini, also wrote an accompanying commentary2 in which they say that they were the victims of censorship and that that their critics had “serious yet undisclosed conflicts of interests”.

The authors also published their raw data; Séralini says that he wanted to be a paragon of transparency, and hopes that companies making and selling genetically modified (GM) food will follow his example. He insists that his work complies with standard international practice for toxicity studies, and laments the fact that Monsanto and other companies publish no toxicity data for their products. “Not a single study has been conducted on the long-term effects of Roundup on rats’ blood,” he says, referring to the popular brand of pesticide made by Monsanto and used with Roundup-resistant GM maize. “This is completely abnormal, and a scientific anomaly.”

Paper retracted

The journal that originally published the paper, Food and Chemical Toxicology (FCT), retracted it in a storm of criticism in November 2013 after Séralini’s team refused to withdraw it (see ‘Study linking GM maize to rat tumours is retracted’). A post-publication review of the paper found that “the data were inconclusive, and therefore the conclusions described in the article were unreliable.” However FCT found “no evidence of fraud or intentional misrepresentation of the data”, according to the journal's publisher, Elsevier in Amsterdam.

Séralini's team had found that rats fed for two years with a glyphosate-resistant type of maize (corn) made by Monsanto developed many more tumours and died earlier than did control animals. It also found that the rats developed tumours when Roundup was added to their drinking water.

Environmental Sciences Europe (ESEU) decided to re-publish the paper to give the scientific community guaranteed long-term access to the data in the retracted paper, editor-in-chief Henner Hollert told Nature. “We were Springer Publishing’s first open access journal on the environment, and are a platform for discussion on science and regulation at a European and regional level.” ESEU conducted no scientific peer review, he adds, “because this had already been conducted by Food and Chemical Toxicology, and had concluded there had been no fraud nor misrepresentation.” The role of the three reviewers hired by ESEU was to check that there had been no change in the scientific content of the paper, Hollert adds.

The publication of the new version of the paper gives critics no reason to change their mind, says food-allergy researcher Richard Goodman of the University of Nebraska–Lincoln and biotechnology editor at FCT. "To my knowledge, no-one has demonstrated that a two-year feeding study of Sprague Dawley rats has uncovered any hazard that actually poses a risk to human or farm-animal health," he says, referring to the breed of rodents used in the study.

Health issues

Sprague Dawley rats, one of the most commonly used lab animals, become prone to health issues once they pass 18 months of age, making the results by Séralini and his colleagues “uninterpretable”, Goodman says. “If you look closely at Séralini’s data, giving glyphosate and the GMO protected one group of rats compared to those having a single treatment. The study was — and, I believe, remains — flawed."

Séralini claims that Goodman, who worked for Monsanto for seven years, was pulled from the FCT post-publication review committee after the research team complained about potential conflicts of interest. Goodman acknowledges that he withdrew from the committee at Séralini's request, because "this was the only way that Séralini would produce the data the committee needed to evaluate the paper". But, he adds, “I had no part in FCT's decision to retract the paper, and I do not see why my wealth of experience and information is considered a conflict of interest rather than useful."

David Spiegelhalter, a statistician at the University of Cambridge, UK, says: "The article still does not appear to have had proper statistical refereeing, and the methods and reporting are obscure. The claimed effects show no dose-response, and so the conclusions rest entirely on a comparison with ten control rats of each sex. This is inadequate."

Spiegelhalter also says: "The study needs replicating by a truly independent laboratory using appropriate sample sizes. I agree with the authors that this whole area would benefit from greater transparency of data and improved experimental and statistical methods."

ETA: Poignant comment:

quote:

Mary Mangan • 2014-06-25 01:24 PM

Now, every research animal in the US (and probably other places around the world) has been eating GMO animal feed for going on 2 decades, right? Don't you think the highly trained professional breeders at The Jackson Lab, or Charles River, or those in any animal facility would have noticed all the giant tumors by now? These animals are not getting organic chow. We are talking about many generations by this point. If there was an issue--wouldn't every single image of a "control" animal be bogus then? Shouldn't they all be riddled with problems--all the measured kidney and blood values would be out of whack? Or maybe it's all just a conspiracy, right, and all the control animals are photoshopped? Or maybe there's nothing there. Still.

Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 03:50 on Jul 7, 2014

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos

shrike82 posted:

Sure, I'm perfectly happy to say that neonicotinoids have nothing to do with GMOs.
Monsanto is still selling a product laced with them that might be responsible for CCDs.

To say that we can't criticize Monsanto for doing so because the anti-GMO nuts are talking garbage is like saying that I can't criticize Obama for his drone policies because the Republicans are frothing in the mouth about him.

Wait, are you going to excoriate Monsanto for using a specific type of pesticide in what it had reasonably grounds to think would be an environmentally safe way? Because we have not established that it is the lacing of seeds with neonicotinoids which causes CCD, nor that Monsanto has been aware of this while using them. Unless both of those are established, Monsanto is not liable, anymore than anyone else buying Bayer pesticides, which were subsequently found to be environmentally unsafe, assuming that this use of neonicotinoids really is unsafe, rather than at other stages of plant development.

ETA:
shrike, you missed an important point in the article you yourself linked:

quote:

Peter Neumann, a biology professor who studies bee health at the University of Bern, Switzerland, said the extent of the bee die-off varied across Europe, but that in Switzerland, 50 percent of colonies were lost in the winter of 2011-12, compared with about 10 percent in a normal year.

And yet, “the role of the neonicotinoids is really hard to pin down,” Mr. Neumann said. “It’s hard to believe that they’re not contributing to the problem, but we really have no data.”

What you quoted was the process by which neonicotinoids work when they are fully operational. "[they] really have no data" about whether the resulting plant retains enough of them to harm bees. What I linked may be stronger than this, but at worst, it just says that Monsanto should stop using this process. If they refuse to do so, then you may have an argument against them, but then they will face bigger issues from actual regulators, so they are not likely to. That's how proper regulation works.

Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 04:49 on Jul 7, 2014

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos

shrike82 posted:

I've been very clear that I'm not singling out Monsanto out but include industry players such as Bayer. If anything, posters like you have been deflecting any criticism by saying "the other guys are doing it too".

If we're restricting the topic to literally only discussing the company Monsanto and the topic GMO, then have fun shooting fish in a barrel.

Fine then. We're done with Monsanto and GMO's. Monsanto is not at fault even if it turns out neonicotinoids in the seeds do lead to CCD, and GMO's are not at all a problem here.

Do you have evidence of foul play by Bayer? What are the specific areas where regulation of agricultural production have failed in that instance, and how can they be fixed?

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos

Deteriorata posted:

It's one study, one of many. There are others that suggest no link between neonictinoids and CCD. No one study is definitive and none should be focused on to the exclusion of the others. They need to be considered in aggregate, and then judged where the preponderance of the evidence lies.

At the moment, the preponderance of evidence does not point in any particular direction. Neonictinoids may be complicit in CCD, they may not be. It does seem clear that it's a complicated issue with lots of interacting variables - so it's probably not any one thing, but a combination of things that work together to cause the problem. Again, it may be neonictinoids in combination with some other pesticide or parasite, or neonictinoids may be an innocent bystander.

Since we don't really understand the problem or what's causing it yet, banning anything at this point would be rash and unwise. Neonictinoids are very useful in insect control, and banning them may not help bees in the least while inflaming lots of other problems.

There is no simple answer here. We don't know what's going on yet, despite a lot of research.

Wouldn't localized banning of neonicotinoids in, say, some EU states while not doing so in others allow a useful comparative study? Similarly for states in the US? We can worry about mechanisms later, but this seems like an experiment that could bring conclusive results about at least one culprit within one or two planting seasons, couldn't it? (I am not an agronomist)

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos

shrike82 posted:

To use an analogy from finance, there's been a lot of back-and-forth about the impact of HFT on the markets and whether the liquidity that HFT shops claim to provide are essentially fake. There has been a lot of research published finding evidence that HFT is lovely or that it isn't bad. Regulatory restrictions on HFT have been hampered by industry lobbyists. But I suspect that a lot of posters here would be in favor of regulatory restrictions on it due to distrust of the financial institutions involved. As someone in the finance industry, the lack of "solid evidence" regarding HFT's ills seems somewhat analogous to that of neonicotinoids. Note that I'm in favor of heavy restrictions on HFT.

I'm just curious why the attitude is so different towards a potential issue highlighted by scientists that impact the food supply. From what I can see online, scientists first highlighted the potential link in the early noughts but haven't been able to enact localized and temporary bans until late last year, which would have provided further data. And dismissing industry lobbying as something they'll do seems peculiar given that we are critical of other industries who rely on it to derail regulatory threats on them, whether in finance or energy.

I guess my broader question is, do you guys actually think the agri industry is somehow qualitatively "better" than the FIRE sector for example. And if so, why?

I know people in finance like to pretend that they can apply their expertise to all industries ever (Nassim Taleb is big on this), but this is in fact an entirely different situation. Neonicotinoids, GMO's, all of these new products are researched, developed, and tested in controlled circumstances for decades, long before they come on market. They are then under scrutiny, and removed if and when unforeseeable hazards are found. How much testing was conducted on HFT's? What kind of safety assessment is done on new financial products before they are brought to market? What kind of framework is there of removing individual instruments if they are found to cause harm? If anything, new financial products are introduced exactly where there is no regulation, and no oversight. So I think it's a poor comparison.

You're taking a product that is thoroughly researched, developed, and tested, and constantly is under the threat of recall with something that can basically be pulled out of some financial wizard's rear end and only passes scrutiny after it may have caused harm, by which time it's really hard to assess it or separate it from the milieu of other interactions. Apples and shorting virtual orange futures.

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos

shrike82 posted:

Are you making the claim that neonicotinoids are unlikely to be an issue because of the agri business's depth of testing?
I am making the claim that agricultural products undergo far more testing before delivery and are recalled when they are found to be harmful, so they are in no way comparable to financial instruments, in which neither actually happens. For this reason, as well as others I imagine a financier like yourself could easily come up with, this is a bad comparison and not useful for informing regulatory policy in the agricultural sector.

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos

shrike82 posted:

I provided further examples of DDT and pharmaceuticals. If you're making an appeal to authority, I figure all of us should stop posting till an agronomist swings by.
Those examples are irrelevant. You are critiquing an industry replete with regulation and a century of experience in testing, implementing, and correcting them, where the incentives are different, and errors and harm are ultimately very hard to hide, and saying we should take cues from a poorly regulated, poorly tested industry where damage is easy to hide and basically impossible to pin down. These things are just incommensurate. For USDA and FDA regulated agriculture and pharmaceuticals to get to the point where they are anywhere near the level of snake-oil money sink that the financial industry is now, they would have to basically become whole foods and nutritional supplements, respectively.

I think you are missing something really fundamental: when a food is bad or a drug causes harm, and this is found out, they are recalled. This happens frequently, and companies as well as individuals lose money and occasionally run out of business. Their entire business model is built up to prevent this. This has been the case for almost a century now. Can you say anything even remotely close about the financial industry?

There are two main reasons that I trust agribusiness more than the financial industry: the former is strictly regulated, the latter is not; the former is amenable to less personalized scientific analysis, the latter is not. I don't think Monsanto or Bayer are any better morally than Blackstone or Bank of America. I expect all of them to be money-grubbing assholes. That is not going to change under a capitalist system. What can change is regulation and liability, that is, the constraints under which they are money-grubbing assholes, and those need to respond to actual problems and actual evidence, not to some vapid unease with new technology, or this gut feeling that "these are evil companies". In that sense, also, the financial industry really has nothing to teach us.

ETA:

shrike82 posted:

Funny how the goalposts have shifted from we need more research about neonicotinoid to they're a "wild guess". If a paper published in Science and precautionary bans enacted in Europe aren't sufficient cause for concern, stop pretending that you're being rational about the topic.
The paper wasn't published in Science. An overview was published in Science, the actual paper was published in Bulletin of Insectology, and was then critiqued by someone in this thread:

moebius2778 posted:

The actual paper is here.

Reading through the paper, my biggest problem is:

The bees were adminstered 0.74 ng of imidacloprid or clothianidin / bee / day for 13 weeks. This amount was chosen because it was significantly below the LD50 (3.4 ng of imidacloprid / bee and 118.7 ng of clothianidin / bee) of the two neonicotinoids. Whether or not this was a reasonable amount of exposure of either neonicotinoid for a honey bee in the wild is never discussed. Which probably should be considered before pointing to neonicotinoids as the sole cause of CCD. Heck, in a previous study, the same authors found that 0.10 ng of imidacloprid / bee / day were sufficient to cause complete loss of all colonies so treated due to CCD. If that dosage was sufficient, why was it increased by a factor of seven for the next study? This is never explained.

I'm also not happy about the lack of pesticides used in the control - if the bees are dosed with sub-lethal amounts of another pesticide, does CCD still occur? I.e., is it neonicotinoids causing CCD or is it pesticides?

I'm also unhappy at the lack of analysis of the health of the bees - it was either - bees are alive, dead, or CCDed. CCD is commonly associated with stressors - cold weather is one, starvation is another. Were the bees all getting the same amount of food? This is kind of important if starvation turns out to be a trigger for CCD.

And, if, as the paper posits, neonicotinoids and cold weather are the trigger for CCD, why does it happen in places with mild winters?

But, really, the entire no explanation for the dosage used should be a big, red flag. Also, minimal analysis of the health of the various colonies should be another big, red flag.

Have you understood the critique? Do you understand the poster's concerns? Do you have anything to add to that?

As for precautionary bans in Europe, if they were not enacted for good reasons, then they provide no good reasons for concern. The EU also bans some GMO's for spurious reasons that have nothing to do with the safety of those GMO's.

Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 07:03 on Jul 7, 2014

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos
This thread has been going on for a while, so I think it might be a good time to take stock. What is the list of things that Monsanto has actually committed, rather than has been accused of? I am starting to think that it is a true unicorn, the one true good multinational corporation, because all of the accusations brought up in this thread (or, really, anywhere) seemed to have been debunked with a little use of google+wikipedia.

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos

Slanderer posted:

There are two things going on here:

1. Monsanto gets latched on to as the casual agent behind every agricultural issue, concern, or insane delusion.

2. An argument from (1) is gish gallop'd with more (1) and also with generic sins of capitalism.

At a point it becomes "well, this and this didn't actually happen, this is misrepresented, and these things are something that every global corporation is part of". At some point it becomes kinda tiresome to separate actual grievances from the chaff (since disproving a wild, unsourced assertion is way more effort than making it in the first place), and it is necessary to specifically separate out the sins of capitalism (ie, "look how many patents monsanto has!" "look how many countries they operate in!") because, while often completely valid, they lend undue credence to some of the more ridiculous assertions, while diverting any discourse from actual issues.

I understand all that. I really do. But seriously there has to be something they did wrong. Really wrong. That they, themselves, really did. I don't know, did they cheat on their taxes? Cheat on their spouse? (Corporations are people, my friend!) Anything!

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos

Slanderer posted:

Well, they continued manufacturing Agent Orange long after they had discovered (and reported to the government) that their manufacturing process could produce a horribly-toxic dioxin as a side-product under certain conditions (as far as I'm aware, the defoliant itself was mostly benign, but even a tiny amount of dioxin contamination was enough to cause health problems with people who were exposed).
Is this any more serious than blaming Ford for Henry Ford being an antisemitic union-buster? I don't think there's much in blaming GM as it stands now for how their 1930's management handled the Flint Sit-Down strikes, but rather at the negligent way in which they've handled vehicle safety in the last decade, with some of the same people responsible currently running things. Is crimes from the 1960's and 1970's really the best one can do?

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos

FRINGE posted:

:psyduck:

Thats why these threads never go anywhere.

Yeah, because people like you bring up the Mary Antoinette of Indian agriculture. "Let them eat greens", she says. If that is impractical for hundreds of millions of her countrymen, while Golden Rice would freely make up the difference saving lives and eyesight, who cares? They're probably of lower caste and don't matter, anyway.

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos

FRINGE posted:

You didnt even look into who she is did you?

I did, though. I wasn't using "caste" just to be a racist anti-Indian shithead. She's a Hindu nationalist and very much into the caste system, as well as misrepresenting her history and qualifications. She makes for a great token third-worlder for upper class Western anti-GMO nuts to use, though.

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos

FRINGE posted:

You just pulled an op-ed hit piece from a blog dedicated to GMOs.

Ok heres here wiki. Wheeeee.

I'm sorry I'm not up to your rigorous sourcing standards. How about I quote the really relevant portion of her Wikipedia page, so that even the laziest of readers can judge for themselves?

quote:

For biodiversity

Vandana Shiva has spent much of her life in the defence and celebration of biodiversity and indigenous knowledge. She has worked to promote biodiversity in agriculture to increase productivity, nutrition, farmer's incomes and climate resilience. It is for this work she was recognised as an 'Environmental Hero' by Time magazine in 2002. Her work on agriculture started in 1984 after the violence in Punjab and the gas leak in Bhopal from Union Carbide's pesticide manufacturing plant. Her studies for the UN University led to the publication of her book The Violence of the Green Revolution. [12][13][14]

Shiva defended the arsonist of Michigan State University premises used for biotechnology and said that "it is criminal" to treat the arsonist as a criminal.[15][16]

Vandana Shiva criticized environmental activist Mark Lynas: because GM plants can spread into surrounding fields, Lynas' position is "like saying rapists sh[oul]d have freedom to rape".[17][18] A follower criticized the comparison of GMOs to rape, but Shiva answered that also plants have right to integrity and we need to abandon "anthropocentric worldview" in favor of "Earth Democracy".[18] The follower wrote that also Mother Earth violates the integrity by moving genes from wild species to others.[18][19]

Golden rice

Shiva also opposes Golden rice, which, according scientific experts, could prevent millions of children from becoming blind every year and alleviate vitamin A deficiency of 250 million people in the developing countries.[20] Shiva said that the women of Bengal grow and eat 150 greens which can do the same.[20] Martina McGloughlin, director of the biotechnology program at the University of California at Davis angrily compared this to Marie Antoinette, who said that the peasants should eat cake if they don't have bread. The Nutrition Foundation of India's study of indigenous food in India confirms that there are plants with much higher beta carotene than what is being touted to be the selling point of 'Golden Rice' [21] Doctor Patrick Moore writes that most of these 250 million children don't eat much else than a bowl of rice a day.[22] Doctor Adrian Dubock says that golden rice is as cheap as other rice and vitamin A deficiency is the greatest reason for blindness and also causes 28% of global preschool child mortality.[23]

Shiva argues that Golden Rice is more harmful than beneficial in her scientific explanation of what she calls the "Golden Rice" hoax: "Unfortunately, Vitamin A rice is a hoax, and will bring further dispute to plant genetic engineering where public relations exercises seem to have replaced science in promotion of untested, unproven and unnecessary technology... This is a recipe for creating hunger and malnutrition, not solving it."[24]

At the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, the director of the Consultative Group on International Agricultural Research, Ismail Serageldin, asked: "do you want 2 to 3 million children a year to go blind and 1 million to die of vitamin A deficiency, just because you object to the way golden rice was created?"[20]

GM, India, and suicides

While Shiva called GM seeds "seeds of slavery", Indian farmers desperately stole those seeds (Bt cotton).[25] Seven years later they already used it on 2,5 million hectares. Bt cotton allows them to avoid the dangers and costs of using pesticides.[26]

According to Dr. Shiva, as mentioned on the Al Jazeera web site (opinion): "Soaring seed prices in India have resulted in many farmers being mired in debt and turning to suicide". [Reuters] The creation of seed monopolies, the destruction of alternatives, the collection of superprofits in the form of royalties, and the increasing vulnerability of monocultures has created a context for debt, suicides, and agrarian distress. According to data from the Indian government, nearly 75 percent rural debt is due to purchased inputs. Farmers’ debt grows as GMO corporation's profits grow. It is in this systemic sense that GM seeds are those of suicide. An internal advisory by the agricultural ministry of India in January 2012 had this to say to the cotton growing states in India: “Cotton farmers are in a deep crisis since shifting to Bt cotton. The spate of farmer suicides in 2011-12 has been particularly severe among Bt cotton farmers.”"[27]

However, farmer suicides had begun to grow before the introduction of the GM seeds, and the growth decreased when GM seeds were introduced. International Food Policy Research Institute (IFPRI) analyzed twice academic articles and government data and concluded the decrease and that there was no evidence on "resurgence" of farmer suicides, GM cotton technology has been very effective in India and there have been many other reasons for the suicides.[28][29][30]

Dr. Shiva replied to these assertions and stood by her claims, refusing to back down.[31]

I mean, to me it sounds like she is a mendacious, anti-science twit with a PhD in an entirely irrelevant field, who refuses to accept evidence contrary to her views, but, you know, that's just from that crazy pro-GMO source, Wikipedia.

ETA:

FRINGE posted:

In the meanwhile though the FDA is supposed to protect the public health over the "right" of the industry to sell contaminated products.

If the FDA is so corrupt and useless, how come it banned trans-fats? That affects many more agribusinesses, after all. It's as if there is only so far you can get with lobbying and regulatory capture!

Also, if you nevertheless want to give the FDA a better ability to assess risk, spend more money on public research into GMO's so there is more for the FDA to work with. None of the anti-GMO activists seem to be headed in that direction, though!

Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 07:06 on Jul 8, 2014

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos

FRINGE posted:

Im sure Slanderer will continue to no-effort shitpost in the thread he made hoping to fill the void in his life.

:ironicat:

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos

FRINGE posted:

There are too many fetishists in this thread. Seek solutions instead of satisfaction.
There may be fetishists in this thread, but the Golden Rice Project sure isn't. Instead, it acknowledges the alternatives, but points to their limitations:

quote:

Golden Rice has the potential to complement existing efforts that seek to reduce blindness and other VAD induced diseases. Those efforts include industrial fortification of basic foodstuffs with vitamin A, distribution of vitamin supplements, and increasing consumption of other foods rich in vitamin A. Those programs are successful mainly in urban areas but still around 45% of children around the world are not reached by supplementation programs. Moreover, these programs are not economically sustainable. Small countries, like Nepal or Ghana, require about 2 million dollars every year to run the campaigns, in spite of the negligible cost of the vitamin A capsules. A large country like India cannot afford to run country-wide programs, because the costs become prohibitive. There is no guarantee that donors and governments will be able to carry on funding those programs year after year (UNICEF, Micronutrient Initiative). Biofortified crops, like Golden Rice offer a long-term sustainable solution, because they do not require recurrent and complicated logistic arrangements once they have been deployed.

That's actually a very peculiar argument, because Ghana's GDP in 2012, for example, was $83.74 billion (Index Mundi), with 5.2% of that being health expenditures (WHO). Makes me wonder why they even need a philanthropist to do a $2 million job.

Have to say, I am quite confused. Do or don't the logistics work out?

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos
A friend from Vermont started posting these:





Imagine how much non-profit GMO research you could fund with the money thrown at this kind of bullshit. :sigh:

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos

Tatum Girlparts posted:

The fact that they're calling their enemy 'big food' is telling enough.

Also, I'm fine with labeling GMO foods, I assume this means nearly literally every food will be labeled. It's kinda fuckin weird to see but hey, sticker makers need jobs I guess.

I think it was a miscalculation by agribusiness to even fight this. They should have just revamped all their products to say "may contain GMO for your pleasure", or something. All of them. Not even bother checking.

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos

Mrit posted:

When you start labeling GM food, people will avoid it because it will look like a warning label. This will push people away from the product and make stores drop them to look 'green'.
Basically it's a back door to banning GMO's, just like they 'banned' irradiated food.

Not if they label everything. As in, you go to the supermarket, and suddenly everything says "Oh, this also may have GMO's in it because we didn't bother checking it because there is no evidence it could harm you." Except a few things in the Organic section. Then it's basically business as usual. They just need to own this.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos

Strudel Man posted:

The food industry is pretty well consolidated, but not enough that this would work. There would be a competitive advantage to having non-GM products under a labeling scheme, and it's not one that everyone would be willing to ignore for the sake of "GM is actually fine" universal labeling.

If the following graphic was not pulled out of someone's rear end, then a whole lot of the industry came together against labeling. It seems like basically biting the bullet once and showing it as being bullshit would be cheaper than having to fight and lobby against labeling every single state, every single appeal, etc.

  • Locked thread