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I find at least 3 stars well worth it for the Honor bonus, so that you keep everyone else more loyal. Plus generals don't die that often if you're even reasonably careful with them in battle.
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Jul 16, 2013 20:51
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AtomikKrab posted:You realize you could have just shot them with arrows and lost 0 men? They may have fixed this, as the last few times I've done this, the AI just ran his units out of the fortress. Either that or I'm just unlucky.
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Jul 16, 2013 20:54
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That was, almost step for step, the exact actions I took the last time I played Shogun 2. I love the Hattori clan. Always wondered though, what the hell is up with the giant inflated sacks on the general's bodyguard units?
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Jul 16, 2013 20:57
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Deadmeat5150 posted:That was, almost step for step, the exact actions I took the last time I played Shogun 2. I love the Hattori clan. They're allegedly arrow catchers. Certain Japanese soldiers or messengers would wear large whale bone and cloth sacks that could tangle up and catch arrows that came from behind. I think they were also something that could indicate status and affiliation a bit like a sashimono. Edit: I am the fasterest! Yukitsu fucked around with this message at 01:59 on Jul 17, 2013 |
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Jul 16, 2013 21:04
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Deadmeat5150 posted:That was, almost step for step, the exact actions I took the last time I played Shogun 2. I love the Hattori clan. It's called a Horo. It's a silk parachute. Only wealthy samurais would have one and it was a mark of stature and was supposed to ward off misfortune. It was tired to the back plate or mask. My guess would be that the parachute would dissipate the force of an arrow that would attempt to hit the target from the side or the back. e;fb
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Jul 16, 2013 21:05
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Deadmeat5150 posted:That was, almost step for step, the exact actions I took the last time I played Shogun 2. I love the Hattori clan. I don't remember the name but I think they were a real thing, used to catch arrows. They'd lodge harmlessly in the bag rather than the wearer's back. E: beaten
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Jul 16, 2013 21:06
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ZenVulgarity posted:It's called a Horo. It's a silk parachute. Only wealthy samurais would have one and it was a mark of stature and was supposed to ward off misfortune. It was tired to the back plate or mask. My guess would be that the parachute would dissipate the force of an arrow that would attempt to hit the target from the side or the back. Seen some show on Discovery where they tested this silk cloth sack. It worked provided one is riding at half speed horse is possible to provide. It does work something like how you described. Seen that show loooooong time ago so I don't remember details. And that sack would only deflect the arrow, not catch it.
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Jul 16, 2013 21:23
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dupersaurus posted:What's the general take on how to treat your daimyo? Is it better to keep him alive and safe, or are the rewards of putting him on the front lines worth the risk? As was said before, it's worth it to get them to three stars for the Honor bonus. Past that, I tend to keep my Daimyo away from the frontlines: I usually give him a few units of decent samurai and some ashigaru chaff to act as a roving security force through my core provinces. A good show of force through your territory above and beyond your usual garrisoned units can help keep unhappiness in check during lean times, and every now and then religious friction or food shortages can cause a rebellion, which a Daimyo back in your core can quickly respond to. Once the Daimyo gets to be in his late 50s, though, I just start thinking about who I want my heir to be and use the Daimyo on the front lines; it's very rare to see ANY character make it past 60 so you might as well be putting that 3-star general to good use.
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Jul 16, 2013 22:35
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It depends on the Daimyo. Some of them you start with are quite old, so sending them into battle to level them up is a waste when you could have used one of your generals for it, or levelling up a potential heir preemptively.
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Jul 17, 2013 01:36
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And we're off! I really enjoyed the last LP and was really looking forward to this one, so it's awesome that you are now a) employed and b) carrying on. That said, I noticed that in the video you brought up the general's aura and rally without explaining them - while I'm sure a lot of us followed you in from the last instalment, there might be new people who haven't, so they might appreciate a rehash of some of the basic mechanics. Unless of course you were planning to cover them in the next video.
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Jul 17, 2013 01:56
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LeschNyhan posted:That said, I noticed that in the video you brought up the general's aura and rally without explaining them - while I'm sure a lot of us followed you in from the last instalment, there might be new people who haven't, so they might appreciate a rehash of some of the basic mechanics. Unless of course you were planning to cover them in the next video. I'm certainly planning on covering all the mechanics again, but as you may have noticed there are an awful lot of them to cover and I'm trying to section off the information dumps into more manageable pieces, since I won't get a chance to talk about much else if I tried to cover everything at once! A good catch though and one I appreciate, especially since I will be covering those two items in the next update (I'm saying that a lot lately, it seems!) Randalor posted:Shalcar, are you planning on getting into the siege weaponry at all, or will the Hattori LP be mostly "use climbing advantage and just swarm"? No siege weaponry is planned at all given our climbing advantage, but to be honest you don't even need siege weaponry for the other clans either, just burn down the gates or go up and over the walls. Siege weaponry is so terrible in vanilla Shogun 2 that it's really not worth dragging along. It slows down your army significantly on the campaign map and they require a substantial arts investment that just isn't warranted (unless you are going gunpowder in which case you need them as a pre-requisite).
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Jul 17, 2013 03:16
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Siege in vanilla is fun, but ultimately isn't practical at all. Cannons are very inaccurate, need a direct line of sight, and can't be moved past deployment. Mangonels have all the same problems but are even worse. Fire rockets are a blast, but they're slow as hell, have limited ammo and their unit freaks out of a stiff breeze blows past them. Also while they're fun to look at, they're deceptively not all that good at killing dudes. The only siege that I find can genuinely be useful are Hojo Hand Mortors, their DLC special unit, and even then after they've been recruited from an accuracy upgrading province and gotten a few ranks. They cause decent kills and can lob over walls / hills / trees / etc, and are also excellent at general sniping or completely flipping out a few units. Even then though, they're so far down the tech tree that the game is almost certainly over by the time you have them. I actually feel that siege weaponry is a real missed opportunity in vanilla. It just... isn't good. It's too expensive, doesn't really do anything your units can't accomplish on their own by burning down gates, and is way too far down the tech line.
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Jul 17, 2013 03:57
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Some of you might have noticed that Shogun 2 now has Steam Trading Cards. Just for fun and in the interest of keeping this LP as current as possible, I decided to spend a little cash to get myself a full set so that I could post the (quite nice!) artwork here in the thread. Some are better than others, but it's an interesting sort of collectable. Attack:  Daimyo and Arrows:  Geisha:  Leader:  Ninja:  Volcano:  Well Rested: 
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Jul 17, 2013 07:11
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I don't remember the game telling you about certain difficulties of climbing walls. One of the first mods I ever installed was getting rid of that Horo. It did make an amusing sight of people very prepared to loot the province. If you want to use siege weapons, you play Fall.
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Jul 17, 2013 08:24
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Scalding Coffee posted:I don't remember the game telling you about certain difficulties of climbing walls. It's mentioned briefly in that disaster of a tutorial when talking about the Kisho Ninja, but it's not documented anywhere. I'll admit I have done no personal testing (which if I have the time might be a fun little experiment to get numbers), but the general consensus taken from other testing and hundreds of hours of observation is as follows: To gain a certain amount of wall height, a check is made to see if the individual a) holds on and climbs up the animation height or b) falls off. Higher walls have higher casualties when climbing because this animation check has to be repeated more times before the unit reaches the top. Units are independent (they won't knock each other off or crush anyone when they fall). Certain things modify animation time (making climbing faster or slower): Certain things modify the chance of falling: Kisho training (less likely), The main thing to take away is that adverse conditions change how you need to approach a castle assault/defence, since what could possibly work in a sunny day may very well be complete suicide at night in the rain.  Confirmation bias is a real bastarde1: Running some numbers now with some surprising results so far: Both the Ashigaru and the Samurai have Kisho training, the Monks do not. Starting unit sizes are in parenthesis, final counts for climbing a moderate size wall. Daytime, Sunny Yari Ashigaru (150): 129, 133, 132 Exhausted Yari Ashigaru (150): 132, 135, 131 Naginata Samurai (120): 108, 106, 110 Exhausted Naginata Samurai (120): 109, 102, 108 Kisho Ninja (45): 45, 45, 45 Exhausted Kisho Ninja (45): 45, 45, 45 Monks (120): 106, 101, 103 Exhausted Monks (120): 103, 102, 103 Right now, it looks like Ashi and Samurai are losing about 10% per climb, with the monks losing around 15%, marginally worse performers in perfect conditions. Ninja are untouchable, although I have seen two fall off a wall before, but I suspect that's almost a freak occurrence. Both Kisho trained ashigaru and samurai climb at the same speed as the non kisho trained monks. Fatigue appears to play no part in the ability of units to climb walls under these conditions. Armour impacts the fatigue of climbing, but doesn't seem to increase the lethality. Night and Raining Yari Ashigaru (150): 130, 133, 130 Naginata Samurai (120): 108, 112, 108 Kisho Ninja (45): 45, 45, 45 Monks (120): 104, 105, 104 Well, it turns out I have been living a lie! Neither night nor rain appear to impact the lethality of wall climbs (although rain does increase the fatigue of wall climbing from my testing). Kisho training appears to be a small boost, the 10% losses vs 15% losses appearing roughly constant across all tests. For fun I sent Kisho Ninja up the biggest wall in the game multiple times, never a death from the wall no matter the conditions or their fatigue. I'm forced to conclude that the advise I gave out in my video was wrong and that conditions don't make the walls any different. Kisho training does not increase the climbing speed, although it does reduce the lethality. The only things that impact climbing speed are being a Kisho Ninja unit (or the hero ninja unit) and the only things that impact lethality are being a Kisho ninja unit (or hero ninja unit) or being Kisho trained. Nothing else matters. Even the Kisho Training appears to be a line call (although if it doesn't have any impact I got one hell of a run of numbers) Deaths based on wall size for a Kisho/Non Kisho unit appear to be as follows: 1 Terrace high: 5%/7.5% losses 2 Terraces high: 10%/15% losses 3 Terraces high: 15%/22.5% losses So there you go. Now we have the answers! shalcar fucked around with this message at 10:18 on Jul 17, 2013 |
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Jul 17, 2013 09:11
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It's nice having something close to hard numbers for it. Still not going to run people up walls unless I have to, but it's nice to see just how much of a loss one should expect to take by doing so.
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Jul 17, 2013 13:33
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What I like to do is have the AI start to send his guys up walls, then sally my cavalry out and hit the climbers from behind. Is that a good idea?
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Jul 17, 2013 13:51
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This is turning out to be a great LP. Thanks a bunch Shalcar. Your previous LP convinced me to buy the game and I have had a ton of fun; though it is a MAJOR time consumer.
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Jul 17, 2013 18:09
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Fangz posted:What I like to do is have the AI start to send his guys up walls, then sally my cavalry out and hit the climbers from behind. Is that a good idea? Circumstantially. First off, it's not great having a much cavalry for garrisons, so I'd only consider that if they happen to be around, and you need to bulk up a defense because it isn't at cap garrison, second, it's not great against yaris, especially not yari samurai, and lastly, if the enemy has a ton of troops invading your walls, usually they stagger their climbs a little, which means it's unlikely that you'll get clean rear charges, in which case having them hunt archers may be more profitable.
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Jul 17, 2013 21:33
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shalcar posted:Leader: Does anyone know what the vest/surcoat thing he's wearing is called? Ken Watanabe wore one in the Last Samurai too and it looks sweet.
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Jul 17, 2013 22:21
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Fangz posted:What I like to do is have the AI start to send his guys up walls, then sally my cavalry out and hit the climbers from behind. Is that a good idea? Like the other guy mentioned, if you have cavalry available, using them to hunt down enemy archers is a good way to use them. The alternative is to hit a unit right after they clear the walls and get into the open courtyard, but it leaves the cav open to bow fire longer than I prefer.
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Jul 18, 2013 01:27
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Fangz posted:What I like to do is have the AI start to send his guys up walls, then sally my cavalry out and hit the climbers from behind. Is that a good idea? It's a great use for cavalry in sieges, who otherwise can be of limited effectiveness. It's especially useful for breaking units which may give you real trouble if they get in the walls in force (Katana Samurai, Naginata Samurai), as the fact the unit is under attack from the rear, fighting cavalry and losing men from the wall combines to be one hell of a morale shock, often breaking the unit before it reaches the top. It's not a good idea to leave the cavalry stuck in for extended periods, but you can easily disengage because the wall climbing unit is unable to pursue you.
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Jul 18, 2013 08:19
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ninjahedgehog posted:Does anyone know what the vest/surcoat thing he's wearing is called? Ken Watanabe wore one in the Last Samurai too and it looks sweet. It's called a jin-baori, if I remember correctly.
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Jul 18, 2013 14:25
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I've learnt two things this past week playing Shogun 2. The first is that archer's fire arrows can actually take out archery towers and fort walls. It's one of those things that... honestly, it takes several volleys, and after the first couple didn't seem to do anything, I just assumed that it couldn't actually light the sections on fire. Now that I know that they can... yeah, there's no use for siege equipment when a unit of archers with fire arrows can do about the same thing, and for a fraction of the cost. The second is... the "Autoresolve battle" option is TERRIBLE. I mean, to the point of "Enemy is attacking my stronghold with 1600 troops, I have only the house defenders. Autoresolve he routs the forces only losing 40 men. I do the battle myself and I slaughter his forces and kill all his generals. And I'm terrible at the game." Does the autoresolve not take into account things like "This is a siege battle. You are in a castle and they have to climb the walls"? It reminds me of Star Wars: Empire at War's Autoresolve, which didn't seem to take into account things like Tie Fighters carried by Star Destroyers or Star Bases.
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Jul 18, 2013 14:49
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Autoresolve ignores castles. AFAIK it is a simulated battle on a plain field. If you are defending you also lose out on things like elevation, but the differences are the most noticeable in castle sieges, especially with higher level castles.
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Jul 18, 2013 14:53
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taremva posted:Autoresolve ignores castles. AFAIK it is a simulated battle on a plain field. Autoresolve doesn't ignore castles, but it applies them as, I believe, statistical bonuses instead of dealing with them at all realistically. But yeah, autoresolve combat is very different from normal combat. For siege combat they greatly favour the attacker, which is fairly exploitable given siege assaults are a pain in the arse. For field combat they are fairer, but I find that generally I can get much better results (albeit not reliably) if I play myself.
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Jul 18, 2013 15:11
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Autoresolve also handles naval battles in a weird way, but that is for later.
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Jul 18, 2013 16:58
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Autoresolve gives better results than what is actually possible to achieve if you can get a 75-80% advantage. It gives way worse results than actually possible otherwise. Often times you can use a full stack to take out 1/4 stack and only lose like 50 men.
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Jul 18, 2013 17:11
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Randalor posted:I've learnt two things this past week playing Shogun 2. The first is that archer's fire arrows can actually take out archery towers and fort walls. It's one of those things that... honestly, it takes several volleys, and after the first couple didn't seem to do anything, I just assumed that it couldn't actually light the sections on fire. Now that I know that they can... yeah, there's no use for siege equipment when a unit of archers with fire arrows can do about the same thing, and for a fraction of the cost. Try to take castle walls intact. There's rarely a reason to try and burn down sections, and capturing the towers gives you a tremendous advantage in taking the remainder of the fortress. It also saves money, which is always a good thing when you're spending a ton to refurbish a newly conquered town. This is the same reason I never autoresolve siege. If you're in a situation where you would consider scorching the walls, it may be best to rely on something like a ninja, or on waiting up the siege. Yukitsu fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Jul 18, 2013 |
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Jul 18, 2013 18:38
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Yukitsu posted:Try to take castle walls intact. There's rarely a reason to try and burn down sections, and capturing the towers gives you a tremendous advantage in taking the remainder of the fortress. It also saves money, which is always a good thing when you're spending a ton to refurbish a newly conquered town. This is the same reason I never autoresolve siege. I was playing Chosokabe, who get a bonus to income from farms, and it was generally easier, quicker and cheaper to burn out the section of wall enemy archers and any arrow towers and then repair the damage, than it was to play arrow-tag with enemy archers that are protected by walls. The cost to repair the damage was usually negligible compared to the income I would get from the town anyways, and it meant my force was back up to full strength faster. Plus the walls go up with a satisfying "Thump!" while sending enemy archers flying through the air.
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Jul 18, 2013 19:05
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Yeah....I didn't know archers could knock out walls until one random battle I lost most of my ranged defenses to a wall simply EXPLODING from fire arrows flinging every archer touching that segment of wall to their death. It was a little.....unrealistic. :P It seems they expect all damage to walls to come from a cannon ball plowing through not some dinky arrows smacking it. Personally I still don't really use that to my advantage though and I do quite dislike auto-resolves tendency to decide that since you auto-resolved its going to damage everything meaning all the gates are burned down and we chopped apart our walls on the way in to kill 45 samurai attendants standing there by themselves.*this has come back to bite me once when a large army was hiding in the trees nearby and jumped out to retake the castle after I'd blown it up getting in.*
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Jul 19, 2013 21:17
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Chaeden posted:Yeah....I didn't know archers could knock out walls until one random battle I lost most of my ranged defenses to a wall simply EXPLODING from fire arrows flinging every archer touching that segment of wall to their death. It was a little.....unrealistic. :P It seems they expect all damage to walls to come from a cannon ball plowing through not some dinky arrows smacking it. The wall reaching 100% damage represents the structural supports giving way (wood structure burned until it can't take the weight anymore), which with that much mass behind it would certainly be pretty catastrophic. The fact the men fly into the air rather than tumble down the collapsing wall is perhaps a bit comical, but it provides key visual distinction for what just happened when you are zoomed out.
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Jul 20, 2013 04:41
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shalcar posted:The wall reaching 100% damage represents the structural supports giving way (wood structure burned until it can't take the weight anymore), which with that much mass behind it would certainly be pretty catastrophic. The fact the men fly into the air rather than tumble down the collapsing wall is perhaps a bit comical, but it provides key visual distinction for what just happened when you are zoomed out. Does damaging the wall make it easier to climb/ provide any benefits other the the units that you kill?
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Jul 20, 2013 05:54
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twig1919 posted:Does damaging the wall make it easier to climb/ provide any benefits other the the units that you kill? Damaged walls don't protect defenders from incoming missiles like intact walls do and, if my quick testing is any indication, causes you to lose around 3% of the unit climbing a broken concourse instead of the ~7% you do if they are intact! I have no idea if broken walls are less tiring to climb.
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Jul 20, 2013 05:56
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Hi everyone, just dropping you all an update on the update! It's certainly a monster update covering topics that include but are not limited to: Province Buildings, Ninja missions, General Skills, Replenishment and more! It's size has meant that I'm not quite as far advanced as I would like to be given that I start a new job tomorrow and have no way of estimating my workload (likely very high!), so if I do miss the update window by a day or two I apologise but I'm sure the wait will be worth it. As of right now it's planned to hit midweek, but it may slide to just before next weekend. Hopefully that won't happen and I'm confident you will find it worth the wait.
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Jul 21, 2013 08:59
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Huzzah, more updates on the way! I tried to play Shogun 2 again the other day, after being inspired by the LP, and I realized I'm terrible when I have to fight a multiple front war. I picked whoever gets bonuses to monks because they seem nifty, but after I take 2-3 provinces I always get squished and destroyed.
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Jul 21, 2013 18:11
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quote:Huzzah, more updates on the way! I tried to play Shogun 2 again the other day, after being inspired by the LP, and I realized I'm terrible when I have to fight a multiple front war. I picked whoever gets bonuses to monks because they seem nifty, but after I take 2-3 provinces I always get squished and destroyed. The Uesugi? One of the hardest starting clans, hand down. No real advantages early game and you get stretched thin almost no matter what you do. It's important to try and break up the Takeda/Imagawa/Hojo hegemony diplomatically, as united they will steamroll you.
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Jul 21, 2013 21:44
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Arcturas posted:Huzzah, more updates on the way! I tried to play Shogun 2 again the other day, after being inspired by the LP, and I realized I'm terrible when I have to fight a multiple front war. I picked whoever gets bonuses to monks because they seem nifty, but after I take 2-3 provinces I always get squished and destroyed. I think people are under willing to use this, but it's sometimes important to bite down your pride and just bribe people into becoming your friends, trade partners or allies to avoid a two front war. Protecting your vassal is also a great way to let you focus your aggression somewhere without having to worry about your flanks until you're better established. I'm running a legendary for it, and yes, the Uesegi start position is ridiculously hard to fight your way out of.
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Jul 22, 2013 02:18
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Since Shalcar's planning to hold another tourney later, here's some news that might be relevant to folks: Steam's lovely Summer Sale is ending in just four hours, and one of the games currently being advertised as a Flash Sale is Shogun 2. It's only $7.49 right now, which is an amazing deal for the content you get with it. I don't know if anyone'll see this in time to take advantage, but if you do, grab a copy and have some fun lopping off pixel samurai heads as we all watch Shalcar and Yukitsu bicker about competing economic theories! (I kid, we love you both, guys.)
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Jul 22, 2013 13:49
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I've seen things you people wouldn't believe, game prices on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched Steam Sales glitter in the dark near the Gaben Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like dollars in my wallet. Time... to buy... Well, it wouldn't be a Steam Sale without some Christmas in July cheer, so I've brought a little love to the thread in the form of 5 free copies of Shogun 2. Free is never simple though, so for the next month I will be running a Fan Art Competition where the best two pieces of Fan Art in the thread will receive a copy of Shogun 2. Topics can be anything from this or my past LP, events real or fictional! Get your pencils/pens/mice ready and do your best! That's only two though, what about the other three, I hear you cry? Well, that's easy! The remaining 3 copies of Shogun 2 will be given away to be the best three Haiku's (Suitably awesome or funny entries will be forgiven for not being perfect Haiku's) about why Total War is great. These will be judged in a weeks time, so get those thoughts cranking. Of course, it would be greatly, greatly appreciated if the winners of these competitions would join our multiplayer tournament, but it's not required. Best of luck to everyone! GenericServices posted:I don't know if anyone'll see this in time to take advantage, but if you do, grab a copy and have some fun lopping off pixel samurai heads as we all watch Shalcar and Yukitsu bicker about competing economic theories! But you love me more, right? =p
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Jul 22, 2013 14:44
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