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shalcar posted:...the game had long ago been won even if I didn't realise it. That's always the annoying thing with TW games, although it is a good (and unique) thing. When I was playing my first Rome 2 game I was trying not to mess with Egypt until I actually had to, and made sure I had a few doomstacks ready when I did... and there was only one full stack to deal with. I think I finished the final third of the game in 20 turns or so.
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Aug 7, 2014 03:46
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Well, today ended up being... eventful. Unfortunately, I didn't even get a chance to make dinner, let alone write up my clan post, so I'll have to do that tomorrow. In the meantime, I'll answer some of the thread questions.Affi posted:My only pet peeve with this game is at higher campaign difficulties the AI magicks up full stacks of elite samurai constantly throwing them at you. It's really quite hard. This both is and isn't true. The Shogun AI, even on the hardest level doesn't cheat in the sense of being able to break the rules. It does cheat in the sense that it has a different set of rules to you, but some of those rule changes actually exist on all difficulty levels! The first big rule change is that the AI, no matter the difficulty, always recruits units in 1 turn no matter how long they would take to construct. So while we take 2 turns to recruit as unit of Katana Samurai, the AI only takes one. The second rule change is that on Hard and above, the AI gets extra recruitment slots in all their towns (+2 slots for hard, +4 slots for Very Hard/Legendary). This means that on Very Hard the AI can produce 5 units a turn in the basic town! What it can't do, however, is make units that could not normally be made in that province (so no making Katana Samurai in a province without a Sword School). The third rule change is that the AI pays reduced upkeep to your increased upkeep as the difficulty levels increase, in addition to getting a greater base income. The end result of this is that on Legendary the AI pretty much has the capacity to run 2 or so full stacks of samurai as only a single province clan, but this doesn't scale with clan size so a 5 province clan can only support around 3 stacks. It also gets additional morale for their combat units the higher the difficulty goes, as well as a boost to researching arts. Other than that, the AI gets no ability to spawn units in the fog, the ability to build things it hasn't researched or additional veterancy on units or anything of the sort. It follows every other rule exactly the same as the player. That doesn't mean it isn't hard though! Timing your pushes becomes critical when the enemy can so rapidly replenish their forces. Knowing when to defend and when to attack is key. petrol blue posted:Shalcar, you mentioned your elite Yari Ashigaru in the update, and that you'd preserve their rank by merging - what are your thoughts on their value? I've not played the series, so it's hard to judge how useful experience is. What are their current stats, and is there any unit you would consider them roughly equal value to? A basic Yari Ashigaru, Yari Samurai and veteran Yari Samurai look like this:    As you can see, the elite Yari Ashigaru have the same morale as the Yari Samurai with both superior attack AND defence, although less armour. Most importantly though, they get this power with an upkeep cost of 95 koku a turn instead of 190 koku a turn and have 150 soldiers in the unit compared to the 120 of the Yari Samurai. Their value is their supreme cost effectiveness, performing slightly better than the unit a tier above them and with more soldiers for less than half the price, quite a bargain! As a general rule, a rank 5 unit can be treated as if it was one tier above (Ashigaru -> Samurai, Samurai -> Monk) and a tier 9 unit is 2 tiers above (Ashigasru -> Monk). Cythereal posted:Finally got caught up on this thread. Thinking about earmarking this game for if it goes on a Steam sale, but I've never played the Total War series before. Is there a steep learning curve even if I set it to easy and a long game? I'm another one of those people who likes to turtle and research. The learning curve on Shogun 2 is primarily on learning what the various units actually do and relative power levels. The game gives you so many options to take that it can be really quite overwhelming and a lot of players just kind of freak out from information overload. Simply by having followed the LP, the game will make a lot of sense (and the LP will suddenly make a lot more sense too!) and I wouldn't expect you would have any problems. I would suggest a Normal Long campaign, but you can go Easy if you are worried. It's very forgiving on Easy so you will have a lot of time to try out different things without being under too much pressure. The game does a great job of easing you in and explaining everything, but sometimes you just need to see things in action (Except for the attacking a fort tutorial battle, that thing is a disaster). Turtling is an odd one, because it means many things to many people. If you mean you like to get everything completely finished before you make your game winning move than, no, you won't have time to get everything, you can really only get about 80% of the total arts (Which is more than you would ever really need anyway, you can only fit so many speciality units into an army!). The game is set up in such a manner that more research and buildings gives you more options, rather than flat out better things, as everything is competitive throughout the game. As such, turtling is really more making yourself ready to take on the Japan with the army you want to fight with and the agents you want and that is not only achievable, but relatively simple. What sort of strategy games have you played in the past? As Sydin said, you are either getting ready to fight or fighting. Getting ready to fight doesn't have to be recruiting troops! It can be researching gunpowder or better farms. It can be building markets or negotiating trade routes. Defensive play is not only workable, but encouraged! Part of taking lands is keeping it and the AI won't hesitate to punish you for too much aggression. Frogfingers posted:I guess breaking out of that style is the hardest lesson to learn, since it becomes econmically unviable to not conquer. The rewards of researched tech and well-garrisoned cities need increasing returns. This isn't true. Province improvements work on a curve, where generally speaking in the building chains that are 4 long, the first one and third one are equally valuable, the last one has the worst returns and the second is between the two. Taking new provinces is a great way to get new income, but you can easily be making a loss by taking many weak provinces and driving up your administrative costs, especially when garrison costs are factored in. It's all about picking your targets and picking your investments to get the best return. 10 provinces will always outperform 1 province, but 1 province properly developed can outperform 3 provinces that are only somewhat developed. I won't deny the vanilla tech tree falls down in a few places, but I don't think it needs more rewards so much as having the rewards be better spread through the tree. I'm not sure what you mean by well-garrisoned cities needing increased returns, do you mean well developed ones?
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Aug 7, 2014 17:14
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shalcar posted:I won't deny the vanilla tech tree falls down in a few places, but I don't think it needs more rewards so much as having the rewards be better spread through the tree. I was mostly talking in relation to turtling, which means building up an expensive garrison that does nothing, and also trade routes being eaten due to lack of naval presence. Those trade lanes are crucial if you're playing defensively.
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Aug 7, 2014 21:42
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Regarding clans in the game, ahead of shalcar's inevitable effortpost about it I'll just say that there are about 10 major clans who you can play as (each with their own bonuses and specifically better units and so on), and then every single other province in the game is ruled by a minor clan (some of the minor clans have 2-3 provinces but most are just a single province). This means that there's about 40 minor clans, although they're pure vanilla and don't have anything special about them (no bonuses to certain units, nothing like that). Major clans aren't necessarily guaranteed to thrive, and in every game I've played I've ended up with some of the 'minor' clans becoming major players and rivals by the end, while some major clans often crash out before turn 5-10 (Oda seems prone to doing this).
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Aug 7, 2014 22:54
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Yeah the Oda are a clan that's very powerful in the hands of a human, but the AI can't make it work. Starting the game at war with either two or three other clans (I can't exactly remember) and having no special resources in your starting province is not exactly an enviable position. On the other hand, their special trait is extremely useful in the early game and well into middle game
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Aug 8, 2014 01:59
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I've found that a clan's starting traits matter less than it's starting geography. The Chokosabe have a good star not because their archery bonuses rock (I actually use few archers) but because they can easily control the lines of movement on their island.
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Aug 8, 2014 02:04
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I've had a fair few games where the Oda managed to beat back the Ikko and thrive quite well. The only clan I have never, and I mean never seen do well in AI hands is the Tokugawa. They're lucky to make it past turn five, and I've actually had games where they get destroyed on the second turn. It makes sense though: I'd argue the Tokugawa have the trickiest opening of any clan, considering you start as a vassal, and at war with the Oda who have a stack sitting two feet from your lone province, which is undefended. If the AI doesn't win the fight against the Oda stack or immediately fall back to its only province, it gets instantly flattened.
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Aug 8, 2014 02:58
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Looking over this game on Steam, I notice it has a demo available. Is the demo any good, or is it one of those demos that doesn't actually give you a good idea of how the game plays? I'm a complete newcomer to the Total War franchise - my strategy pedigree is mainly the Civilization series and a smattering of real-time strategy games like Starcraft, Supreme Commander, and the Dawn of War series.
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Aug 9, 2014 01:50
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Cythereal posted:Looking over this game on Steam, I notice it has a demo available. Is the demo any good, or is it one of those demos that doesn't actually give you a good idea of how the game plays? I'm a complete newcomer to the Total War franchise - my strategy pedigree is mainly the Civilization series and a smattering of real-time strategy games like Starcraft, Supreme Commander, and the Dawn of War series. Rather surprised you have a bunch of RTS under your belt but not Total War though.
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Aug 9, 2014 03:30
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Sober posted:Rather surprised you have a bunch of RTS under your belt but not Total War though. Somehow I just never got around to the series. Got the original Rome Total War for my dad for Christmas several years ago and he loved it, but this LP has piqued my interest in the game.
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Aug 9, 2014 03:36
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They demo will give you a reasonable idea of how it plays (although not how it looks - IIRC most of the graphics options above medium are effectively disabled for the demo so as to keep the filesize down).
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Aug 9, 2014 15:46
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John Charity Spring posted:They demo will give you a reasonable idea of how it plays (although not how it looks - IIRC most of the graphics options above medium are effectively disabled for the demo so as to keep the filesize down). Nope, the demo will happily play at max settings. Not sure I'll pick the game up, though. My RTS skills aren't much beyond "move giant blob towards enemy," and the much more tactical nature of combat in this game doesn't come naturally to me. I'd still appreciate a rundown on the clans, though. The demo has the game's full encyclopedia, and playing a Christian clan sounds like it could be all sorts of fun. Well, fun for you, misery for the rest of Japan.
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Aug 9, 2014 21:11
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Cythereal posted:Nope, the demo will happily play at max settings. Not sure I'll pick the game up, though. My RTS skills aren't much beyond "move giant blob towards enemy," and the much more tactical nature of combat in this game doesn't come naturally to me. It is absolutely perfectly viable to play Shogun 2 as a pure TBS and auto-resolve all the battles you don't want to fight. It's still an incredible amount of fun playing like this and I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few people reading the thread played the game like that. I, personally, didn't play naval battles for about a year because I could never get a handle on them and now I'm pretty solid at them. I'm still working on the clan rundown for everyone, life has broken out with a case of busy.
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Aug 10, 2014 03:58
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Major Clans in Shogun 2 There are 12 playable (called Major in the game) clans in Shogun 2 if you have all the DLC (9 if you don't). Each clan starts the game with one (in some cases, two) provinces which is indicated on bright green on the map and roughly half a dozen named victory provinces which must be captured (marked in transparent green on the maps) in order to win, as well as satisfying the total number of controlled provinces. Each major clan has several units replaced with a unique version of it, which either more powerful, cheaper or both. In addition, each major clan has a single unit that only they can ever produce which fills a role unique to that clan. As a rough guide in difficulty, the easiest to play clans are located to the left, with the relative difficulty increasing as you go to the right. New players should stick to the leftmost clans until they are confident they can handle the tougher starts of the rightmost ones.   Shogun 2 Encyclopaedia posted:The Chosokabe clan claim descent from the Chinese Emperor Qin Shi Huang. Despite their long history, the Chosokabe clan has had mixed fortunes, and has been under the protection of the Ichijo, who helped them to recapture their castle at Oko. Chosokabe Kunichika, the daimyo, is certainly bold and brave enough to have imperial blood in his veins: he once jumped off an Ichijo castle wall for a dare! He has now broken with the Ichijo, rebuilt Chosokabe influence, and vowed revenge on his enemies. Kunichika can take advantage of the Chosokabe's traditional strengths: they are phenomenal farmers, and gain extra income from their lands; they produce superb archers and cheap archer units too. With their strength concentrated in Tosa province, the Chosokabe are already at war with the Kono clan of Iyo to the northwest. Now they have to make an interesting strategic decision: deal with their immediate enemies in Iyo, crush the Ichijo clan at home in Tosa, or attack the Miyoshi clan of Awa province. This last might seem like madness, but Awa is blessed with plentiful warhorses, a valuable resource for anyone planning to expand their clan army. The other nearby resource that will be incredibly useful is the good building stone in Sanuki to the north east. Once these immediate opportunities and problems are resolved, then who is to say the next shogun will not be a Chosokabe lord? Unique Units: Chosokabe Bow Ashigaru, Chosokabe Bow Samurai, Chosokabe Bow Warrior Monks, Chosokabe Bow Hero, Chosokabe Daikyu Samurai Clan Overview: The Chosokabe are arguably the easiest clan in the game to play as, with better than usual farms (nothing to write home about, but every province has farms and it adds up), a great start with natural expansion and chokepoints, powerful archers and a relatively rich island. Chosokabe are perhaps the most neutral of the clans, with their bonuses not so much about changing your playstyle but simply letting you be better than any other clan. This makes them very good for beginners. Their ranged firepower can be deadly and their archers are better in melee combat than most. Those fighting against the Chosokabe can expect a ranged heavy army and should plan accordingly by bringing cavalry and heavily armoured units.   Shogun 2 Encyclopaedia posted:The Shimazu are a proud clan, with a long history worthy of their pride. To the Shimazu, loyalty is everything, and their generals are less likely to develop ambitions of their own. Shimazu katana samurai are cheaper to recruit and maintain in the field than those of other clans; they can also recruit superior katana-armed samurai. The clan can trace its ancestry back to Minamoto Yoritomo, the founder and first shogun of the Kamakura shogunate. In 1187, Yoritomo appointed his son, Tadahisa, as military governor of southern Kyushu. The young man took the name of Shimazu in Hyuga province, his seat of government, as his own. Thanks to a well-organised army and administration, abundant local resources, and a certain distance between Kyushu and the Kamakura court, the Shimazu clan became rich and powerful. They did not, however, become hidebound: when their vassals in Tanegashima met a strange, shipwrecked people from the other side of the world, the Shimazu were quick to see that trade with these "nanban" Europeans might be worthwhile. Now, under the daimyo Shimazu Takahisa, the clan has a chance for true greatness. Their home province of Satsuma is secure, and they are at peace with the Sagara of Higo province to the north. Higo, however, is a tempting target for expansion because of the warhorses to be found there. There is the small matter of a war with the Ito clan in the provinces of Osumi and Hyuga, but once these local difficulties are resolved the distance from Kyushu to the shogun's palace is not so great after all… Unique Units: Shimazu Katana Samurai, Shimazu Katana Hero, Shimazu Heavy Gunners Clan Overview: Another great pick for beginners, the Shimazu enjoy a natural expansion area in one of the richest parts of Japan and katana infantry that is both better than usual and cheaper to maintain. This translates into a huge infantry advantage, especially early on against armies of mainly ashigaru. The main risk with the Shimazu is becoming the big fish in a small pond and not working towareds Kyoto, as the distance from the capital is a major drawback for this clan. On the other hand, the sheer wealth available to this clan from trade with the western nodes combined with the fertile lands means that you can support not only a colossal army, but many powerful fleets as well. Those fighting against the Shimazu can expect a katana heavy army and should bring heavy cavalry and powerful ranged units. Avoiding a head on fight tends to be your best option.   Shogun 2 Encyclopaedia posted:The Hojo are greater builders than any other clan. Any castle costs are reduced for them, and damage is cheaper to repair. They can also produce cheaper, and better, siege weapons than any other clan. These skills allow the Hojo to pursue a strategy of occupying land, then daring an enemy to evict them. The Hojo began their rise to power modestly enough on the Kanto plain, taking advantage of civil war and the troubles of others to establish themselves. Ise Shinkuro, a powerful official in the shogunate, founded the clan, but it was his son who adopted the name Hojo, even though the family have no connection with the Hojo clan of elder days. The clan did not go unchallenged, and they fought both Uesugi factions: the Uesugi even stopped fighting each other to take on the Hojo! They have also had incidents with the Imagawa and Takeda clans, but for now there is an uneasy peace. Should the Hojo daimyo ever be in a position to become shogun, peace will vanish faster than the cherry blossoms. From their homelands in Izu and Sagami, the Hojo are surrounded by threats and great opportunities. They are, for the moment, at peace with Imagawa, and the Takeda in Kai to the northwest. The Takeda, in addition to being superb horsemen, also occupy a province with superior warhorses, and no warlord can afford to ignore such a potential prize. Suruga is also a prize worth contemplating. However, the Hojo also have an immediate problem: they are under threat from an Ogigayatsu clan army about to invade Sagami from Musashi. Unique Units: Hojo Fire Projecting Mangonels, Hojo Fire Rockets, Hojo Hand Mortars, Hojo Cannons, Hojo Fire Bomb Throwers Clan Overview: The Hojo are another good clan, but strangely enough it has nothing to do with their clan units or abilities, which are universally pretty terrible and should basically never be built. Instead, the Hojo benefit from starting with not only two provinces, but one which has a gold mine, giving them incredible wealth. With cheaper fortifications, the Hojo are more defensively focused, able to hold onto what they take more cheaply than other clans. I won't pretend their special units are not absolutely fun as hell though. Basically nothing compares to Fire Rockets backed up by Hand Mortars to bomb the hell out of everything. Fighting against the Hojo can be a real slog, as their provinces tend to be highly fortified. Don't bring siege weaponry, instead, bring more wall fodder or just siege them out. Hojo armies tend to be well balanced.   Shogun 2 Encyclopaedia posted:The Mori have a long history of seafaring and are sea masters without equal. They can read the waves and move their fleets further than other clans, and their shipbuilding skills make the construction and maintenance of ships cheaper too. They can also build some rather superior vessels as well. The Mori came to prominence as jito, or stewards, of the Aki province after the Jokyu War in 1221. Despite owing their position to the Kamakura shogunate, they distanced themselves from their sponsors, and were in league with Ashikaga Takauji when he overthrew the old order. They got caught up in the struggles between the Amako and Ouchi clans, and only survived by combining military might with astute diplomacy. Under Mori Motonari, their daimyo, the clan is still at war with the Amako and, indeed, their home in Aki is threatened by an invasion from the north by the Amako. They are still allied with the Ouchi clan of Suo and Nagati to the west, and have peaceful relations with the Kikkawa and Kono in Bingo and Iyo respectively. The war with the Amako is not without opportunity, though: the Amako's home province of Iwami has deposits of precious metals. Access to other valuable resources would require the removal of the Kikkawa and Kono. But with the sea-going skills of the Mori and the wealth of Iwami, an ambitious daimyo could go far, perhaps as far as the shogun's palace? Unique Units: Mori Bow Kobaya, Mori Fire Bomb Kobaya, Mori Matchlock Kobaya, Mori Nanban Trade Ship, Mori Cannon Bune, Mori Siege Tower Bune, Mori Medium Bune, Mori Sengoku Bune, Mori Heavy Bune, Mori O Ataka Bune, Mori Wako Raiders Clan Overview: The Mori are a seafaring clan with superior ships to everyone else (substantially so) that also move further than everyone else. They have a fantastic position, well able to expand to the island down south and claim all the benefits of the Chosokabe start. This is tempered by their exposure on other flanks as well as their mediocre land troops. Wako Raiders should not be underestimated in their fighting capacity however! The Mori give you the benefit of speed, able to strike when and where you need to. Since knowing this comes with experience, it can be tricky for new players to get the most out of them. Fighting against the Mori can often mean being forced to abandon the sea unless you have decent numerical superiority. They field balanced armies, but don't pack any surprises.   Shogun 2 Encyclopaedia posted:From his castle in Owari, Oda Nobuhide commands a clan with a formidable reputation. The Oda are rightly respected for their skills as inspiring battlefield commanders of ashigaru. These common soldiers are cheaper to train and maintain than samurai, if not quite as deadly. Numbers, however, are becoming important in warfare, and ashigaru can be recruited in very large numbers. The Oda not only produce ashigaru efficiently and economically, they can also recruit superior ashigaru forces as well. Originally retainers of the Shiba clan, the Oda grew as the Shiba faded, but this only led to decades of strife within the family for supremacy. Eventually, the Kiyosu branch of the family came to prominence and eventually changed the clan name to Oda, a respectful acknowledgement of their ancestor, Taira no Chikazane, who had settled in Oda in Echizen. Now, the Oda confront outsiders: to the north, the Saito of Mino province; to the east, the Tokugawa clan in Mikawa and, beyond them, the Imagawa lurk. An attack to the east could destroy the clan's enemies, and will also give the Oda access to valuable warhorses in Mikawa province. No warlord should ever ignore the chance to improve the quality of his cavalry, particularly at the expense of his enemies! Relations with the Tsutsui clan in Ise to the west have been peaceful recently, but Ise is a tempting prize because of its inspirational religious sites. And beyond the immediate lies the prize of the shogunate… Unique Units: Oda Yari Ashigaru, Oda Long Yari Ashigaru, Oda Bow Ashigaru, Oda Matchlock Ashigaru Clan Overview: The Oda are a real mixed bag, with incredible unique units (everyone uses a whole lot of ashigaru and the Oda don't really need anything else) with a terribly precarious starting position that will see you either crushed or booming towards victory. Located in the incredibly rich but incredibly exposed central Japan, the Oda are best placed to take advantage of that with their cheaper and superior ashigaru allowing them to take and hold vast swathes of land for a pittance. Oda are boom or bust and require some skill with using ashigaru, but if you have the capacity, the Oda can win faster than any other clan. When fighting against the Oda you can expect to fight large numbers of superior ashigaru and should bring katana or naginata units to weather the swarm. Although cavalry can be useful if well used, the sheer numbers of spears you are likely to be up against make them a risky proposition.   Shogun 2 Encyclopaedia posted:Date warriors have fierce and unforgiving natures. Their foes learn this on the battlefield, shortly before they die. All Date units have a charge bonus, and their fearsome no-dachi samurai, with two-handed swords, are cheap to recruit and maintain. The Date can also recruit superior no-dachi units as well: attack is a Date watchword! Seen from their home province of Iwate, there are many rivals worth attacking. Date Harumune, their daimyo, is already at war with rebels at his own door, not to mention the Mogami clan of Ugo and Usen to the west. An attack there could put holy shrines under Date control. To the southwest, matters are a little more settled: the Hatakeyama clan in Miyagi is currently at peace with the Date, but who knows if such a situation will last? The forests of Miyagi represent a useful resource too. The clan was founded by Isa Tomomune when he was given control of the Date district by the shogun Minamoto Yoritomo at the end of the 12th Century. The clan steadily gained influence until recently, when fighting broke out within the clan over the issue of a marriage alliance with the Uesugi. Date Harumune quarrelled violently with his own father, Tanemune, over plans to marry off his younger brother: a large number of the Date retainers and warriors agreed with Harumune and the old man was removed. Now, Harumune needs a new challenge, perhaps the shogunate? Unique Units: Date No-dachi Samurai, Date Bulletproof Samurai Clan Overview: Another clan protected by being a long way from anywhere, the Date have a very limited set of special units, but make up for it by giving a charge boost to all their units. In effect, every unit is a special unit when charging into battle! The sheer size of the provinces at the east end of Japan means that you will often get several turns warning when an invasion is coming. The flipside is that it takes several turns to launch an invasion, so taking advantage of opportunities can be quite difficult. Luckily, all their victory provinces are their only natural expansions and are relatively rich. When fighting against the Date you can expect to fight a decent number of No-dachi samurai. Bring cavalry and archers. Try to use the terrain to blunt their charge, which can be far more devastating than you would think.   Shogun 2 Encyclopaedia posted:Takeda warlords have ruled Kai, their home province, since the 12th Century, but they have known little peace. Clan infighting, a long series of struggles against repeated invasions from the neighbouring Shinano province, and wars against the Hojo and Imagawa clans, saw to that. They have, however, mastered diplomacy as well as horses, and have achieved peace on occasions. Now, under their daimyo, Takeda Shingen, the clan have opportunities and threats on all sides. A Murakami army is about to invade Kai from northern Shinano; the Kiso clan from beyond the mountains in Shinano, is at peace with the Takeda. Shinano itself, if its current owners are destroyed, has valuable stone resources for the taking. To the east, in Musashi, the Ogigayatsu clan are also peaceful, as are the Hojo of Sagami and Izu provinces. Sagami must be considered a tempting target for an ambitious warlord, thanks to the skilled smiths who live there. To the south the Imagawa clan have recently been reliable allies. The Takeda clan, then, have enemies, worthwhile prizes to aim for, and worthy allies. Not all clans are so blessed! As might be expected of horse-masters, the Takeda clan can recruit and train cavalry much more efficiently than other clans. They can also produce a superior class of horsemen to anyone else. And it may be those horsemen who carry the Takeda daimyo to the shogunate! Unique Units: Takeda Light Cavalry, Takeda Fire Cavalry, Takeda Yari Cavalry, Takeda Bow Cavalry, Takeda Katana Cavalry Clan Overview: Masters of cavalry, the Takeda have no real way to leverage their advantage early on while everyone is fielding a great many yari ashigaru. In addition, the Takeda have relatively few expansion options, being hemmed in by geography. While this does have the advantage of making defending easier, as soon as you have expanded, Japan opens up and that advantage is lost again. On the other hand, Fire Cavalry have to be seen to be believed, these powerful units can easily change the tide of any battle. As you would expect, the Takeda tend to have cavalry heavy armies, so a solid compliment of yari is a must for anyone wanting to fight them. Don't expect to have cavalry superiority, the battle will need to be won by your infantry alone.   Shogun 2 Encyclopaedia posted:Although the Tokugawa are an ancient family, claiming descent from Minamoto no Yoritomo, the first shogun of the Kamakura shogunate, they have known hard times since those glorious days. They have also changed their clan name, with the permission of the Emperor, from Matsudaira to Tokugawa, the place where Yorimoto's descendent settled. The Tokugawa have been squeezed between two powerful and ambitious clans: the Imagawa to the east, and the Oda in the west, a most uncomfortable position. By accepting the protection of the Imagawa, the Tokugawa only guaranteed that they were frequently attacked by the Oda. This goes some way to explaining their superior diplomatic skills, their training and use of very good kisho ninja, and the superior metsuke who keep order in their lands. Now, they are at war with the Oda once again. An Oda army has actually invaded the Tokugawa province of Mikawa. In theory, the Tokugawa are vassals of the Imagawa clan to the east in the provinces of Suruga and Totomi. They do not, however, need to worry about the Kiso in Shinano province, as relations with these neighbours are peaceful. That said Shinano has useful stone resources that could prove useful to an ambitious warlord. Historically, after much struggle, Tokugawa Ieyasu did become the seii taishogun, the "great general who subdues the barbarians" and the ruler of Japan with the emperor as a figurehead. The Tokugawa clan kept control of Japan for over 200 years, shutting the country off from pernicious outside influences. History need not turn out that way: another Tokugawa could quite easily become shogun. Unique Units: Tokugawa Kisho Ninja, Tokugawa Mounted Gunners Clan Overview: The master of politics, the Tokugawa are basically doomed. In the hands of the AI, they generally don't make it past turn 3 and often don't survive turn 1. If you can make it past their rather tough 5 turns, you have all the same positional advantages as the Oda, but don't have their cheap and plentiful ashigaru. Even so, it will be easier to maintain peace with the boost to diplomacy. Mounted Gunners are absolutely incredible, but require you to dedicate your entire game to getting them, something that is too likely a luxury for the Tokugawa. The Tokugawa are just tough and bland. You won't ever be fighting the Tokugawa.   Shogun 2 Encyclopaedia posted:The Uesugi are proud of their Buddhist faith. They can recruit and maintain warrior monks far more cheaply than any other clan. They can also recruit much better fighting monks and more effective monk agents than any other clan. Despite this religious solidarity, the history of the Uesugi is not tranquil. The current Uesugi leaders were originally the Nagao clan of Echigo, and were vassals to the Yamanouchi faction of the Uesugi clan. The Nagao fought alongside their masters against the Ogigayatsu, another part of the Uesugi clan, in a bitter dispute. The Yamanouchi, weakened by a war with the Hojo, were forced to seek help from the Nagao lord, Kagetora. His "help" included adopting the name of Uesugi, and taking control of the whole Uesugi clan! Just to make matters even more complicated, Uesugi Kagetora (as he now called himself) changed his name again to Uesugi Kenshin. He was an adherent of Bishamonten, the war god and took Buddhist vows. He then stepped down in favour of his brother, who proved to be staggeringly divisive and unpopular. Kenshin returned to power and now contemplates the future. There is much struggle yet to come if the clan is to be secure and an Uesugi is ever to be shogun! There are Uesugi rebels in Echigo itself, and to the south there is unfinished business in the shape of the Yamanouchi clan of Kozuke province. Luckily, there are peaceful relations with the Ashina clan of Fukushima, and the Mogami clan of Uzen province, but both of these areas have resources, wood and stone respectively, which could be of considerable use. In keeping with the religious bent of the Uesugi, Kozuke province has a tradition of philosophical scholarship that could be harnessed to the Kenshin's purposes. A navy might also prove useful, as Sado, off the coast of Echigo, has plentiful gold deposits. Unique Units: Uesugi Warrior Monks, Uesugi Bow Warrior Monks, Uesugi Naginata Warrior Monk Hero, Uesugi Marathon Monks Clan Overview: The Uesugi are one of, if not the toughest start in the entire game. Their position is several turns from any other province but exposed on multiple sides which makes invasion difficult at best, since you will often find as soon as your army moves out, an enemy army tries to move in. In addition, their benefits are purely for endgame units which won't help your brutal start. The boost to trade is nice, but just isn't substantial enough to make Uesugi anything other than really, really hard. If you can get established and get to monks then you are laughing, but you have to actually get there. When fighting against the Uesugi you can expect a balanced army unless it's late game at which point you can expect lots of elite monks. Bring your guitar, because you are going to get rocked. Quality archers are your best friend and will do great things. Fire into your own men if you are in melee, you will kill more monks than friendlies and the Uesugi monks were going to kill them anyway. I'm serious. Failing that, bring 5 men for every 1 of theirs.   Shogun 2 Encyclopaedia posted:The Hattori are the leading family in Iga, a mountainous province, and the home of the independent Iga Sokoku Ikki, a kind of proto-republic which denied the power of the Kamakura shogunate's feudal lords. The people of Iga developed a school of martial arts, the Iga-ryu ninjutsu, which combined martial arts, assassination techniques and unconventional warfare tactics. They used their ninjutsu to keep their independence, and then to make themselves wealthy as swords-for-hire. The tradition of independence, however, has remained strong in Iga and among the Hattori. Ninjutsu remains a dark art, passed down through families and jealously guarded from outsiders' eyes. It is not surprising, then, that the Hattori can recruit ninja warriors more cheaply than any other clan, and their ninja also have more expertise, both on and off the battlefield. Under the leadership of Hattori Yasunaga, the clan remains dangerous. As he looks beyond the borders of Iga, who knows where ambition may take his clan: perhaps to the shogun's palace? The Hattori are largely at peace with their neighbours, although such arrangements have a tendency to fall apart. To the north, the Asai in Omi represent a tempting target, as there is a school of ninja there. To the south, the Kitabatake and Tsutsui defend holy sites that might be better under Hattori stewardship, while the Ashikaga of Yamato represent all that is wrong with the old tired system of government, as they control what passes for a shogunate at the moment. Unique Units: Hattori Yari Ashigaru, Hattori Bow Ashigaru, Hattori Matchlock Ashigaru, Hattori Kisho Ninja, Hattori Bandits, Hattori Katana Samurai, Hattori Yari Samurai, Hattori Naginata Samurai, Hattori Bow Samurai, Hattori Matchlock Samurai Clan Overview: Located in rich central Japan, the Hattori have wonderful victory provinces and many lush lands to conquer. Unfortunately, despite the fact that every Hattori unit has Kisho training, they also cost 20% more in upkeep. This makes things very difficult, as central Japan has many different fronts and the extra wealth will be quickly consumed just in the troops needed to hold it all. Their unique unit, Hattori Bandits, is barely more than marginally improved Bow Ashigaru and have ludicrous building requirements. Luckily, the Hattori units have marginally more morale than non Hattori units, so they will win in a straight fight. Unfortunately, the extra upkeep means you won't ever be in a straight fight. Luckily, the Hattori get incredible Ninja agents to help cover the reduced number of troops they get. The trick is being able to afford them both at once. The Hattori start in a war for survival and never, ever stop until you have won the game. When fighting against the Hattori you need to remember that their units are marginally superior to yours in a one on one fight, but that shouldn't be happening. Bring more soldiers against the Hattori. Also bring Metsuke, because their Ninja will murder everything.   Shogun 2 Encyclopaedia posted:The Ikko Ikki, the "single-minded league", are inspired by their faith, Jodo Shinshu Buddhism, the "true pure land", a sect founded by the monk and philosopher Shinran. Unlike other Buddhist monks, Shinran married and many of his descendants have been the high abbots, or monshu, of the sect since. Rennyo, the most influential and persuasive of the high abbots, led his sect to Echizen after the Jodo Shinshu temple in Omi province was destroyed as a nest of heretics by Tendai monks. Despite this setback, Rennyo has made Echizen and Kaga provinces into strongholds of his faith. While largely a movement of peasants, inspired by a vision of paradise to create that paradise on earth, the Ikko Ikki are not without military skills. Members of the Shimozuma clan have acted as advisors and commanders for the Ikko Ikki. Shimozuma Rensu was, for example, a staunch supporter of the movement, and a military advisor to Rennyo. Rennyo professed a belief in non-violent action, but not in being defenceless. This explains why the Ikko Ikki can recruit superior warrior monks, and large, relatively cheap ashigaru units. The monks spread the faith; the people believe. The Ikko Ikki also rely on their appeal with the common people to spread the word and dissent in other lands. This makes them a threat to the established order of the great clans and their lords. A religious republic offers many attractions to the downtrodden, but not to the already mighty. Wherever they turn, the Ikko Ikki are likely to be opposed by the clans, and welcomed by the people, assuming the word is spread carefully first… Unique Units: Ikko Ikki Loan Sword Ashigaru, Ikko Ikki Naginata Warrior Monks, Ikko Ikki Marathon Monks, Ikko Ikki Bow Warrior Monks, Ikko Ikki Naginata Warrior Monk Hero, Naginata Warrior Monk Cavalry, Ikko Ikki Bow Ashigaru, Ikko Ikki Matchlock Ashigaru, Ikko Ikki Matchlock Warrior Monks Clan Overview: The Ikko Ikki are a unique clan that follows a unique religion, Jodo Shinshu Buddhism. This means that everyone has an enormous diplomatic penalty with you and you will struggle to find trade partners and allies, often being at war with everyone around you. The Ikko Ikki have a unique Monk agent and their Generals also have their own skill tree. In addition, the Ikko Ikki can't build Metsuke, which puts a huge cramp on your economy. Their initial position is quite powerful with access to both Crafts and a Blacksmith, but their need to convert a province means that conquest is slow going and you will never be able to blitz like a Buddhist clan. Their ashigaru units are weaker than everyone but more numerous, while their samurai units are less numerous but more powerful, watch out for Bow Ronin. They have several unique monk units, including monk cavalry and monk matchlock gunners. In addition, their monks are just flat out superior to everyone else and cheaper, while they get monk units as garrisons. The Ikko Ikki are very powerful but struggle to get the money to get started and are at real risk of being flooded off the map. On the upside, you don't even notice Realm Divide! When fighting against the Ikko Ikki you can expect a fairly balanced army and should endeavour to bring the same, except go a little cavalry heavy. Never, ever try to outshoot Bow Ronin. It doesn't work. You will lose. Badly. The Bow Ronin is why you bring the cavalry.   Shogun 2 Encyclopaedia posted:Coming to prominence during the Kamakura Shogunate following the Gempei War, the Otomo clan have remained at the forefront of Japanese feudal politics for almost four hundred years, through the transition to the Ashikaga Shogunate and on to the present day. Alongside the Shoni and Shimazu, the Otomo are one of the largest clans on the southern island of Kyushu, and therefore were amongst the first to make contact with the Portuguese, establishing trade links soon after the Europeans were shipwrecked near the tiny fishing port of Nagasaki. Their daimyo, Otomo Sorin, sees the benefits to both the clan's economy and the military advantages that trade with the West can bring, making good use of their emerging gun technology. Following the arrival of the Jesuit missionary Francis Xavier and their subsequent meeting, Sorin has showed tolerance towards Jesuit conversion of his subjects to Christianity, and may even consider conversion himself if it becomes expedient to do so. As a result, the Otomo can recruit cheaper gunpowder units more quickly that other clans, the actions of Jesuit missionaries are cheaper to perform, and the population can be converted to Christianity faster. Yet their policy of religious tolerance has brought the Otomo into conflict with their neighbours, the strictly Buddhist Shimazu. If they can be defeated, the Otomo may be able to control Kyushu in its entirety, meaning there is a chance that Japan may yet see its first Christian shogun! Unique Units: Otomo Matchlock Ashigaru, Otomo Matchlock Samurai, Portuguese Tercos, Otomo Matchlock Kobaya, Leased Land Clan Overview: The other non Buddhist clan in the game, the Otomo are Christian, trading with the Portuguese. Like the Ikko Ikki, they are hated by everyone and have to convert the provinces they capture. In the same great position is the Shimazu, they are hampered by the fact their unique units are defensive in nature and they have difficulty expanding. This is compounded by how far away they are from central Japan. If they can get a foothold their access to gunpowder weapons will see them sweep to ascendancy, but early on they are vulnerable and weak. Unique to the Otomo is the ability to lease a building slot to the Portuguese, granting a huge amount of wealth but reducing the Daimyo's honour. Unfortunately, the starting honour is terrible and everyone already hates you. When fighting the Otomo you can expect to see many gunpowder units and should bring archers to counter. Cavalry can also be useful, but massed guns can quickly obliterate even the best charge. shalcar fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Aug 10, 2014 |
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Aug 10, 2014 16:32
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The last three are on the right mostly just because they're DLC, not for their difficulty, right? I mean, Hattori starts are a bitch and giving that out as a pre-order bonus that people were likely to start with was a masterful way to make people stop playing the game, but I'd put the Ikko Ikki and Otomo basically just in the middle of the pack in a player's hands. Even I've managed to win campaigns with them. 
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Aug 10, 2014 17:30
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Huh. Interesting. The demo has you play as the Chosokabe, which from what you've said makes sense. If it is practical to just always use autoresolve and play the game as essentially turn-based, I think I will earmark this game for if it goes on a big steam sale. The idea of overruning Japan as the Otomo or Hojo using guns and rockets to trump swords and spears greatly amuses me.
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Aug 10, 2014 17:47
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Eh...I'd say yes and no the Otomo especially are fairly difficult for some people*me notably* for various reasons they start out surrounded in hate with gunpowder units I'd NEVER had the opportunity to use until I played them*and still can't use effectively* and they start pretty close to the Shimazu who might have a decent katana stack by the time you get out of your mire of minor clan battles to get to them. Once you are out of their early game I assume the Kyushu start basically wins the game for them but with minimal gunpowder experience you can find a heap of trouble. The ikko though.....so long as you know how religion works and don't try to over extend your reach your probably okay their main difficulty is just the fact that everything they have is different from the norm. Personally the one I find a bit oddly place is the Date since they are put to the right of the Oda and have a good start and no serious flaws. Their only flaw is that you'll feel like its taking them ages to get anywhere at first.*Roads my kingdom for some roads* So yeah, as he said its a rough guide they probably belong somewhere to the right but probably not all the way to the right.
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Aug 10, 2014 18:16
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I had some good fun doing a campaign as the Mori in which I converted to Christianity. It gave me the edge I needed on land with easy access to gunpowder while my fleets were augmented further with Nanban Trade Ships to make them essentially invincible.
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Aug 10, 2014 20:02
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John Charity Spring posted:I had some good fun doing a campaign as the Mori in which I converted to Christianity. It gave me the edge I needed on land with easy access to gunpowder while my fleets were augmented further with Nanban Trade Ships to make them essentially invincible. Not to mention that the Mori get a unique improved version of the Caravel. 
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Aug 10, 2014 20:31
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I could have sworn Ikko Ikki Ashigaru had a higher base morale, but I haven't played them for a long time and I could be wrong. And yeah, the Date No Dachi samurai are a bitch to use properly but a successful charge or two will melt Ashigaru almost instantly, and samurai not long after. Date Bullet proof samurai are nothing to sneer at either, even if they take twice as long to get anywhere on the map.
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Aug 10, 2014 20:51
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Ikko Ikki also get ashigaru with swords, which helps out a lot in the rock paper scissors of sword-spear-horse
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Aug 10, 2014 21:25
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Jade Star posted:Ikko Ikki also get ashigaru with swords, which helps out a lot in the rock paper scissors of sword-spear-horse I believe you mean sword axe lance. 
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Aug 10, 2014 22:23
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TehKeen posted:I believe you mean sword axe lance. That's Fire Emblem silly! This is TOTAL WAR! (is now imagining a fire emblem army fighting a total war army)
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Aug 10, 2014 22:58
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Chaeden posted:Eh...I'd say yes and no the Otomo especially are fairly difficult for some people*me notably* for various reasons they start out surrounded in hate with gunpowder units I'd NEVER had the opportunity to use until I played them*and still can't use effectively* and they start pretty close to the Shimazu who might have a decent katana stack by the time you get out of your mire of minor clan battles to get to them. Once you are out of their early game I assume the Kyushu start basically wins the game for them but with minimal gunpowder experience you can find a heap of trouble. Matchlock units do take bit micromanagement to use effectively on the field, but when you do they're lethal. A key thing to remember is to not have your fire at will on. You'll probably only get one volley off during the initial skirmish so wait till the enemy is a bit closer and focus fire on one or two of their units to cause an instant route. Then, once your melee units are engaged pull your matchlocks around and pepper the enemies flanks at long range. I've been playing Otomo on very hard difficulty recently and I've found its best to turtle up a bit at the start and focus on monopolizing trade routes and unlocking Portuguese Tercos (aka the most broken unit in the game).
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Aug 10, 2014 23:32
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Aug 11, 2014 04:47
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Otomo have a pretty strong steamroll effect. They own the waves with early naban trade ships, which means they own all the western trade routes. Tercos are very powerful and your priests are great at causing rebellions in the provinces you want to soften up before you conquer.
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Aug 11, 2014 09:58
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After playing through the demo again and watching some of the multiplayer videos, I think I am going to keep a watch for a good Steam sale on this game. The demo's idea of a siege tutorial is to throw more than a dozen units at you, including a hero, cannons, warrior monks, and kisho ninja, and throw you at one of the higher tier forts with instructions to use those special units' unique abilities to win. I have no idea where to start with that mess, and hopefully the actual game will have a gentler learning curve.
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Aug 11, 2014 23:20
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Cythereal posted:After playing through the demo again and watching some of the multiplayer videos, I think I am going to keep a watch for a good Steam sale on this game. The demo's idea of a siege tutorial is to throw more than a dozen units at you, including a hero, cannons, warrior monks, and kisho ninja, and throw you at one of the higher tier forts with instructions to use those special units' unique abilities to win. I have no idea where to start with that mess, and hopefully the actual game will have a gentler learning curve. Oh, BTW, it's not Shogun 2 proper but Fall of the Samurai is on sale this week on Steam,  for Fall and all the DLC. fake edit: S2 proper is 7.50$ on GreenmanGaming, but no DLC, just the vanilla game there.
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Aug 12, 2014 00:33
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Yeah, I was worried about what that fort mission meant for the game as a whole too, but I actually played the game and I found it was much easier. I would start as the Chosokabe on Easy and Long. You start out on an island unconnected to the main islands and you can take your time learning the game. A few things though. These might sound obvious, but when you're coming to a new series, it's good to have some guidelines. 1. Don't assault forts unless you have at least a two to one advantage. 2. Don't split your forces unless you have a very good reason. Moving an army as two halves instead of one whole makes it twice as easy for the enemy to crush you. Likewise, if the enemy has their army split up, or an army is reinforcing a garrison, focus on the reinforcements first. 3. Cavalry should avoid prolonged melee combat if possible. Use cavalry for flanking or chasing down routed units. Never, ever, send them against spears. An elite hero cavalry unit will get mauled by the weakest spear unit. 4. Ashigaru are great for cannon fodder. They're cheap to replace and they were going to die anyways. Just make sure they don't break and start a chain rout. On the other hand, they're fantastic for garrison duty as their low morale isn't an issue. 5. If you initiate an battle, you must go to the enemy. If the enemy initiates the battle, they must come to you. This means that on the attack, the enemy chooses where you will fight. On the defense, you get to choose where to fight. 6. Always remember that you can pause in the middle of battle, give your orders, and then unpause. This helps a lot. 7. Don't bother with siege weapons. Seriously. Hope that helps. Mr.Morgenstern fucked around with this message at 06:30 on Aug 12, 2014 |
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Aug 12, 2014 00:53
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Cythereal posted:After playing through the demo again and watching some of the multiplayer videos, I think I am going to keep a watch for a good Steam sale on this game. The demo's idea of a siege tutorial is to throw more than a dozen units at you, including a hero, cannons, warrior monks, and kisho ninja, and throw you at one of the higher tier forts with instructions to use those special units' unique abilities to win. I have no idea where to start with that mess, and hopefully the actual game will have a gentler learning curve. The second tutorial mission is a trainwreck and not remotely representative of any battle you will ever fight in Shogun 2. Remember, the armies you bring to big events like a fortress assault will be one you have built yourself in the style you like to play. Take heart that we don't have a single battle anything like it in the LP and we won't have one like it.
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Aug 12, 2014 01:44
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I've only played one game of Shogun 2 and it was as the Shimazu. Really easy to get started, especially once you own all of Kyushu, as you need for your required victory provinces. The Blacksmith in your starting province is no joke either, or the better Katana Samurai you get. The Otomo might give you some trouble, especially if they're allowed to grow, and the religion will trouble you for a while, requiring a growing garrison, unless you pull down all their buildings providing that religious pressure (and lose out on their sweet bonuses to Chi arts research and trade ships) or until you get high level Monks and Buddhist temples in there and nearby to nullify and then decrease the Christian pressure and then building Shinto-Buddhist pressure back up. Still, Kyushu gives you some absolutely great provinces, with their trade resources and incredible tax value. You only have one real chokepoint from southern Honshu onto Kyushu that you have to hold, provided you have enough of a navy to prevent landings, which you should with the amount of money holding all of Kyushu will be giving you. Plus monopolizing the trade nodes with your trade ships and the fleets to guard them will be a great source of income, which I wish I realized sooner in my own game, since by the time I had a fleet going with trade ships and enough of a fleet to protect them, most of the western trade nodes were already claimed by Clans that I had allied with. I eventually got some of my own trade ships onto some of the nodes, but when Realm Divide rolled around, I didn't keep an eye on the fleets there and they got ravaged by larger enemy fleets that moved in. Didn't help that I had no idea how to play naval battles and mostly auto-resolved them, losing more men and ship armor than I needed to, eventually losing whole fleets to enemy action followed by them retreated into the deep attrition waters to lose more men on ships that were already damaged. A lesson for next game, I guess. One downside of playing Shimazu is that your capital is so far from everything, so all of your generals will spawn away from the action and need some time to get to the frontlines. If you tend to build your armies in southern Kyushu for the bonuses there (Blacksmith in Satsuma, Warhorses and Crafts in other provinces), they will also take a while to get to the action, as well as any agents that are injured in the line of duty. Despite this, you have an incredible position and can likely steamroller everything in your path to Kyoto once you get going. Just don't play too cautiously like I did and let the Chosokabe and Hattori blob like crazy, which limits your expansion opportunities if the former takes southern Honshu like they did in my game. I had an alliance with them that I was unwilling to break, because of the trade agreement that I had going with them as well as the honor hit, so that really limited me expansion-wise, which became a non-issue once Realm Divide hit. Really my problem was that I was too cautious in taking territory, building up my army into doomstacks and improving my provinces as much as I could with the koku I had available, while researching more military and civil tech to build my armies and provinces even larger, before finally heading out to conquer. It still worked out in the end, as my armies were pretty much unstoppable then once I moved them into position, but it really took a lot longer than it should've. And the economy crash once all my trade relations dried up after Realm Divide (as all of my former allies abandoned me and broke my trade routes) really hurt, at least until I conquered enough to have my economy get back on its feet, through base tax, Metsuke bonuses, and developing my provinces. The Chosokabe look like a fun clan to play as well, since they have basically the same situation as the Shimazu, but with powerful archers instead of Katana Samurai. Once I get back into Shogun 2 after finishing some of my other backlog, it looks like I'll be playing a game as them next.
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Aug 12, 2014 04:41
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My most enjoyable campaigns in standard Shogun 2 were the Oda, Mori (going Christian), and the Ikko Ikki. The Ikko Ikki in particular were a ton of fun because they feel very different from the other factions. And shalcar's guidance (in the LP and out of it) was very helpful at times in giving tips on how to handle things; I'd never have figured out the economic side in this sort of depth otherwise.
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Aug 12, 2014 09:15
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John Charity Spring posted:My most enjoyable campaigns in standard Shogun 2 were the Oda, Mori (going Christian), and the Ikko Ikki. The Ikko Ikki in particular were a ton of fun because they feel very different from the other factions. And shalcar's guidance (in the LP and out of it) was very helpful at times in giving tips on how to handle things; I'd never have figured out the economic side in this sort of depth otherwise. Quaecumque Vera doce me, eh captain?
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Aug 12, 2014 11:07
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Ex Creative Assembly semper aliquid novi, lad.
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Aug 12, 2014 11:10
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GhostStalker posted:I've only played one game of Shogun 2 and it was as the Shimazu. Really easy to get started, especially once you own all of Kyushu, as you need for your required victory provinces. The Blacksmith in your starting province is no joke either, or the better Katana Samurai you get. The Otomo might give you some trouble, especially if they're allowed to grow, and the religion will trouble you for a while, requiring a growing garrison, unless you pull down all their buildings providing that religious pressure (and lose out on their sweet bonuses to Chi arts research and trade ships) or until you get high level Monks and Buddhist temples in there and nearby to nullify and then decrease the Christian pressure and then building Shinto-Buddhist pressure back up. Bah, screw that. Embrace the strange foreign worship and reap the benefits. Most of the rest of Japan is going to hate you anyways not long after you get off Kyushu so why not take advantage of it?
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Aug 12, 2014 16:23
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Taerkar posted:Bah, screw that. Embrace the strange foreign worship and reap the benefits. Most of the rest of Japan is going to hate you anyways not long after you get off Kyushu so why not take advantage of it? What's the deal with Christianity in Shogun 2 anyway? I get that the Otomo start off Christian, it causes unrest for Buddhist clans, and it gets you improved access to guns, but how exactly does all that work? And can any clan go Christian or is it just western Japan?
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Aug 12, 2014 16:36
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Any clan can once you have exposure to Christianity, I think?
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Aug 12, 2014 16:41
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Cythereal posted:What's the deal with Christianity in Shogun 2 anyway? I get that the Otomo start off Christian, it causes unrest for Buddhist clans, and it gets you improved access to guns, but how exactly does all that work? And can any clan go Christian or is it just western Japan? The Otomo are unique in that they begin the game as Christian, while every other clan starts as Buddhist in some form. For other clans, there is an event that fires at some point in the game about Nanban traders appearing in your ports hoping to trade. The further west you are in Japan, the quicker you get this event. So the Shimazu get it almost immediately, while the Date don't get it until very late in the game. If you accept the trade, you get the option to build a Nanban port. This gives you access to some gunpowder units (imported cannons and imported matchlock ashigaru) but spreads Christianity in the province it was built in. At this point, you get the option to flip your clan to Christian. Flipping reduces Daimyo honor by 2, makes all the Buddhist clans enraged with you, and starts to rapidly raise religious unrest in all your Buddhist provinces. It however also allows you to build the Nanban quarter, which not only reduces the recruitment times of the aforementioned gunpowder units, but also allows you to build Nanban Caravels: massive ships armed with cannons. It cannot be overstated just how broken caravels are: a single one can wipe out a whole stack of Bune. You also gain the ability to build churches (rather than temples) and recruit missionaries (rather than monks). Churches give give a collossal bonus to Chi art research (something like +15% vs the +5% of a similarly upgraded temple) and missionaries can very easily incite riots in Buddhist provinces. As I mentioned though, there are harsh trade-offs. The sudden honor drop means all your generals are suddenly disloyal as hell, the religious unrest means your lands and army are paralyzed for a good chunk of turns keeping the peace until it settles down, but you really can't sit around doing nothing because all of Japan hates you and will have no problems preying on you in this moment of weakness. The first 20ish turns after going Christian are a scary, scary time, and it takes a lot of skill and a fair bit of luck to survive. But if you do survive? You become an unstoppable naval power with advanced gunpowder units long before anybody else does, with a economic research bonus and agents that can constantly keep enemy clans occupied with province revolts. It's an interesting mechanic and makes for a very high energy game. Wouldn't recommended it as a beginner move, though.
Sydin fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Aug 12, 2014 |
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Aug 12, 2014 16:48
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It is Nanban.
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Aug 12, 2014 17:04
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| # ? Apr 24, 2024 09:38 |
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Potato, potatoe. But really, thanks. I've corrected my idiocy.
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Aug 12, 2014 18:24
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