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Third Murderer posted:Enemies of the Hattori beware! This fortress* is guarded by the invincible bowninjasamurai, Masanari! This is a good post and I'm throwing it into the OP. LokAmir posted:You said 'Gomuyumi' was one of the top 3 retainers: what are the other two? Sydin covered them quite well, although I think he underestimates Chinese Courtier (+1 honour and +10 diplomatic relations), which I would place in the top 3, as it's by far the best diplomatic retainer (although it lacks the flair of Pet Tiger!). It probably makes more sense to sort the top 3 into those that give combat bonuses and those that give campaign bonuses. These are simply my own opinion, of course, but there are very, very few places where you would pick another retainer if given a choice of any of these 6. All retainers that start with "Legendary" can only be an option if the slot is for the rank 6 general, to the best of my knowledge, so you couldn't get all 3 combat retainers on the one general, for example. Combat: 1) Gomuyumi (+10 accuracy for bow units) 2) Legendary Naginata (+2 melee attack for all naginata units) 3) Legendary Biwa Player (+2 morale for all units) Campaign: 1) Surgeon (+5% to replenishment) 2) Chinese Courtier (+1 honour and +10 diplomatic relations) 3) Shichiroji (+7% campaign map movement)
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Jul 26, 2013 10:14
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shalcar posted:
Isn't this overly niche to be a top-three pick? Disclaimer: I haven't played Shogun 2 before. JosephWongKS fucked around with this message at 10:33 on Jul 26, 2013 |
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Jul 26, 2013 10:29
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JosephWongKS posted:Isn't this overly niche to be a top-three pick? It takes the most heavily armoured unit in the game (with also the highest melee defence) and makes them 1 melee attack less than the anti-infantry unit in the game. It basically eliminates their only weakness. It's amazing. To further illustrate the point, Katana Samurai (which are the anti-infantry unit), have 12 melee attack, 4 melee defence and 5 armour. Naginata Samurai would have 11 (9+2) melee attack, 6 melee defence and 9 armour, in addition to getting a large boost vs cavalry that Katana troops don't have. Naginata troops with the retainer will handily thrash their counter, while remaining untouchable to ranged troops and cavalry, which are the counters to katana troops. Basically, the way melee attack scales makes this a ludicrous boost. e: Part of why this is so good is the way that experience tends to be drained out of your line troops through the casualties they take relative to the casualties you deal. Naginata Samurai with extra killing power take significantly less casualties as a proportion of their kills and so rank up much faster, which in turn makes them kill better and die less, which perpetuates the cycle. As it takes significantly more experience to rank up for each level and you lose more experience out of a unit when an elite soldier dies, you do hit equilibrium, but it tends to be around 3 ranks higher for Naginata boosted in this way compared to katana (around rank 7ish to rank 4). It makes sense when you think that Naginata are balanced around their huge survivability with their low killing rate. Up their killing rate and they just go nuts. e2: It's also part of why Blacksmiths are so heavily sought after and are considered amazing advantages, as the fact they give flat boosts rather than proportional to melee attack or armour makes certain units awe inspiring. I'm purposely not going for Blacksmith provinces for this reason. Infantry Leader suffers the same issue (As does Stand and Fight to a lesser extent). shalcar fucked around with this message at 10:48 on Jul 26, 2013 |
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Jul 26, 2013 10:40
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Actually, JosephWongKS brings up a very good point about the units having not really been explained properly, which I imagine would make quite a bit of what various posters talk about rather difficult to follow as we don't really have a spoiler policy regarding units we have not seen (since it really wouldn't have much point). It's important to note there are no hard counters in the game, simply soft counters that will win if a match is otherwise perfectly even. The best victories are those where you use superior tactical ability to defeat an opponent that outmatches you on paper! Shalcar's guide to the units of Total War: Shogun 2 Units in Shogun 2 can be broken down roughly three different ways: Unit quality Unit weapon Mounted? Firstly, each unit consists of one of four quality types: Ashigaru Samurai Monk Hero Ashigaru units are the cheapest and most accessible of all the quality types, characterised by large numbers in a unit, low morale and low combat statistics. Without exception, ashigaru units are poorly armoured. Given their almost universally non-existent building requirements, ability to be produced almost anywhere and low cost, these are the units that provide the bulk of early game armies. Although they become less useful as the game progresses, they remain the most plentiful units and never stop being useful. Ashigaru units are countered by any ranged fire and morale shock (rear charges, flank attacks, gunpowder, being outnumbered). Samurai units are the defensive units in the game. Generally heavily armoured and well skilled with their weapons, these are the core troops as every weapon type in the game can be wielded by samurai units. Samurai units have moderate numbers of men in the unit and a moderate price tag that will prevent too many from being in your armies until at least mid game. In addition, all samurai units have art requirements which must be met before they can be produced (with the exception of Yari and Bow Samurai) and so will not become prevalent until the mid game, their availability dictated by your arts allocation. Samurai units are countered by monk units. Monk units are the offensive powerhouses in the game. Although they sport exceptional combat skills, they are without exception poorly armoured but with sky-high morale. Monks are limited in their weaponry, only able to wield the generalist naginata and bow, although some have mastered the matchlock. Monks have relatively few men and a high upkeep in addition to a very large arts and infrastructure investment required, so they are mid to late game units. Monks are countered by ranged fire, with Bow Ashigaru devastatingly cost effective at their destruction as well as attrition through being outnumbered. Monks tend to need to be killed almost to the man and so need to be countered with a high lethality weapon (No-Dachi, Katana). Hero units are Samurai turned up to 11. Possessing the armour of Samurai and the combat killing skills of the Monks, they massively amplify the benefits of their weapon. Heroes will, almost without exception, fight to the last two or so men. Hero units are tiny but relatively affordable, however they require extreme arts investment and will only ever be seen in end game, sometimes never appearing at all! Heroes need to be shot (guns work best or a lot of elite archers) or completely drowned in troops. Extreme lethality weapons like the No-Dachi work best (don't expect any unit going up against heroes to come back, though). As a rule, Monks beat Samurai, Samurai beat Ashigaru and (Bow) Ashigaru 'beat' Monks (This is in cost effective terms, not in actual 1v1). Heroes beat everything, although they have the hardest time against monks and but can consume basically infinite ashigaru. Of those quality types, they each wield one of the following weapons: Yari : Ashigaru, Samurai, Hero Bow : Ashigaru, Samurai, Monk, Hero Katana : Ashigaru (Ikko Ikki only), Samurai, Hero No-Dachi : Samurai, Hero Naginata : Samurai, Monk, Hero Matchlock : Ashigaru, Samurai, Monk (Ikko Ikki only), Hero Melee weapons: The lethality of infantry weapons against infantry is rated (from most lethal to least lethal) No-Dachi -> Katana -> Naginta -> Yari The lethality of infantry weapons against cavalry is rated (from most lethal to least lethal) Yari -> Naginata -> No-Dachi -> Katana The survivability of infantry weapons against infantry is rated (from most survivable to least survivable) Naginata -> Yari -> Katana -> No-Dachi The survivability of infantry weapons against cavalry is rated (from most survivable to least survivable) Yaro -> Naginata -> Katana -> No-Dachi Yari units are the supreme units against cavalry, able to annihilate any and every cavalry unit in the game with minimal losses. Yari units tend to be highly mobile and moderately survivable. In infantry fights, however, they are little better than roadblocks, lacking the supreme survivability of naginata or the killing power of katana. Katana units are the designated anti-infantry units of the game, providing high killing power with a moderate defence. Katana units lack flexibility however and tend to fare poorly against cavalry or ranged weapon fire. Katana units are an exceptional 'core' unit for starting players, able to out-muscle most units if given yari support. No-Dachi units are the glass cannons of Shogun 2. The incredible damage they deal is only matched by the incredible casualties they take. No-Dachi units are poorly armoured no matter their quality and will be destroyed by ranged units and cavalry. No-Dachi should be used like cavalry for hitting flanks or getting powerful charges off to cripple key enemy units. Naginata units are the most defensive ones in the game, possessing either incredible armour (Samurai) or melee defence (Monks) while maintaining a moderate killing capacity against both infantry and cavalry. Naginata units perform no role amazingly, but perform all of them competently. Naginata units make good 'core' units, but will lose to the katana 'core'. Ranged weapons: The lethality of ranged weapons is rated (from most lethal to least lethal) Matchlocks -> Bows (Monks, Samurai, Heroes) -> Bows (Ashigaru) (Ashigaru have special bows that have reduced armour penetration capacity) The range of ranged weapons is rated (from longest to shortest) Bows (Heroes) -> Bows(Monks) -> Bows (Ashigaru, Samurai) -> Matchlocks Bows (Ashigaru) provide a large volume of fire that struggle to deal damage to even moderately armoured units but is equally powerful against low armour units. Effective against Ashigaru units, No-Dachi units and Monk units. Bows (Samurai, Monks, Heroes) deal respectable damage to all but the most heavily armoured units (Naginata Samurai, Heroes), making them incredible versatile at the price of cost effectiveness being average across the board. Effective against Ashigaru units, Katana units, Yari units, No-Dachi units and Monk units. Matchlock units have the shortest range and all but ignore armour. Although they put out few projectiles compared to other ranged units, their lethality is all but assured. Matchlock units inflict terror on everyone they shoot at, friend and foe alike. Effective against Ashigaru, Heroes and Mounted units. Lastly, mounted units have their weapons work in a somewhat different way: The charge lethality of cavalry weapons is rated (from most lethal to least lethal) Spears -> Naginata -> Katana The sustained killing power of cavalry weapons is rated (from most lethal to least lethal) Katana -> Naginata -> Spears Spear cavalry should be used to charge in, do huge damage and then pull out, similar to the classical idea of cavalry. Once their charge has stopped, their killing power is abysmal. Naginata cavalry has a reasonable charge and moderate sustained killing power, at the expense of being not ideal at either. Katana cavalry have a very poor charge but huge sustained damage. They should be used like portable katana units, charge a high value unit and remain engaged. While this all might look like a lot to take in at once, it actually becomes pretty natural fairly quickly and the game's arts tree is such that units get introduced in a fairly slow and steady manner so as not to overwhelm you. It's no coincidence that you can get only 2 Ashigaru types, yari and bow at the start and these also happen to be the weapons that you can get on your samurai at the game start. You even get a unit of yari samurai to start with so that you can see straight away how samurai perform compared to their ashigaru cousins!
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Jul 26, 2013 14:41
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How significant are the melee capabilities of missile units? When my front line is doing not so well, I often have a temptation to throw my bow infantry forward to try to plug the gaps. Is this a good idea?
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Jul 26, 2013 15:26
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Fangz posted:How significant are the melee capabilities of missile units? When my front line is doing not so well, I often have a temptation to throw my bow infantry forward to try to plug the gaps. Is this a good idea? That is pretty much a move of absolute desperation. They would be very unlikely to turn the tide unless maybe you can use them to flank the enemy for the morale shock.
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Jul 26, 2013 15:34
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Fangz posted:How significant are the melee capabilities of missile units? When my front line is doing not so well, I often have a temptation to throw my bow infantry forward to try to plug the gaps. Is this a good idea? Pretty terrible. It's a waste of units for all the good they do in melee.
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Jul 26, 2013 15:36
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Fangz posted:How significant are the melee capabilities of missile units? When my front line is doing not so well, I often have a temptation to throw my bow infantry forward to try to plug the gaps. Is this a good idea? It's never really a good idea to try and use bow infantry in place of melee units. Bow ashigaru are especially vulnerable to any melee unit, and while Bow Samurai have better melee stats, they don't have any sort of melee killing power. It just means they give you a few extra moments to pull them out of engagement so another unit can take their place.
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Jul 26, 2013 15:36
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Well, obviously I won't be doing it if I had other options, but my thoughts would usually be that it'd be preferable to losing part of the battleline to the enemy, and letting them reform and get a flank on my other forces, or even just charging my missile line themselves. Or that if I can engage their own missile units in melee with my own, that'd stop them from shooting at my more valuable units. Can't bow samurai outfight ashigaru, at least?
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Jul 26, 2013 17:26
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Fangz posted:How significant are the melee capabilities of missile units? When my front line is doing not so well, I often have a temptation to throw my bow infantry forward to try to plug the gaps. Is this a good idea? They're pretty similar to the yari ashigaru melee stats. I tend to draw them around the flanks and rear charge when the enemy is all tied up in melee, and my cavalry has pushed their archers off the field.
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Jul 26, 2013 17:35
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Deadmeat5150 posted:He's a secret Korean. Fun fact: Even Korean has a similar overlap between L and R. It's not quite as bad as Japanese, but there's definitely confusion.
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Jul 26, 2013 18:37
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Is there a short guide as to what one should do first in Shogun 2? Maybe a 'First 10 Turns™' thing? Shalcar's info writeups are useful, but they are a little overwhelming. I want to play Ikko Ikki, but all I remember from the previous thread was 'build temples every other province'.
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Jul 26, 2013 20:02
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CommissarMega posted:Is there a short guide as to what one should do first in Shogun 2? Maybe a 'First 10 Turns™' thing? Shalcar's info writeups are useful, but they are a little overwhelming. I want to play Ikko Ikki, but all I remember from the previous thread was 'build temples every other province'. Your first 10 turns really makes a difference depending on which faction you are, so it's a bit hard to say for each faction in turn. I could probably help out a bit with it, but honestly, I frame my strategy around cheese free legendary, which doesn't help a lot of people who can't win outnumbered significantly all the time.
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Jul 26, 2013 20:06
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What do you mean by 'cheese free'? As I recall, the Ikko need as much help as they can get, so I don't mind being maximum cheesy.
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Jul 26, 2013 20:18
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Fangz posted:How significant are the melee capabilities of missile units? When my front line is doing not so well, I often have a temptation to throw my bow infantry forward to try to plug the gaps. Is this a good idea? I had a tiny battle once with two bow ashigaru vs two naginata ashigaru and a general. My bowmen nearly won the battle on mostly melee. If you charge and you have a good position they can do some OK damage. If they are getting rushed and you really have no choice its better to turn melee on and have them rush the enemy.
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Jul 26, 2013 20:19
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CommissarMega posted:What do you mean by 'cheese free'? As I recall, the Ikko need as much help as they can get, so I don't mind being maximum cheesy. You can abuse the AI in some cases through siege defense, as the AI is a bit glitchy on those, it's actually possible to save scum a legendary run. The biggest though is taking advantage of the AI's siege abilities, or using autoresolve on siege attack battles that are in your favour. It's also possible to "run the clock" while defending so the AI "loses" due to the timer by using 1 unit of scout cavalry. That one can hold up a pass with just 1 unit for pretty much ever.
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Jul 26, 2013 20:24
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Yukitsu posted:You can abuse the AI in some cases through siege defense, as the AI is a bit glitchy on those, it's actually possible to save scum a legendary run. The biggest though is taking advantage of the AI's siege abilities, or using autoresolve on siege attack battles that are in your favour. It's also possible to "run the clock" while defending so the AI "loses" due to the timer by using 1 unit of scout cavalry. That one can hold up a pass with just 1 unit for pretty much ever. Is there anything that's as broken as Rome TW phalanxes?
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Jul 26, 2013 20:26
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my dad posted:Is there anything that's as broken as Rome TW phalanxes? Spear wall IMO. I use those to beat katana samurai heavy armies in multiplayer on a 1 per 1 or even 2 against on a regular basis, and I don't even have the right set up for that. Works just as well against the AI. So basically phalanxes still. And if you know what the hell you're doing, shotgun cavalry makes my opponents flame me in chat. Yukitsu fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Jul 26, 2013 |
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Jul 26, 2013 20:41
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Yukitsu posted:Spear wall IMO. I use those to beat katana samurai heavy armies in multiplayer on a 1 per 1 or even 2 against on a regular basis, and I don't even have the right set up for that. Works just as well against the AI. Wait, I thought spear wall only works on cavalry?
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Jul 26, 2013 20:57
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my dad posted:Is there anything that's as broken as Rome TW phalanxes? I've played Rome TW a lot, and am playing Europa Barbarorum now, but what makes phalanx so broken? I've never tough too much how to use phalanx, cause I almost exclusively play with Romans in Vanilla, and I still don't like phalanx in EB. Always found phalanx too rigid for my taste.
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Jul 26, 2013 20:59
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Jesenjin posted:I've played Rome TW a lot, and am playing Europa Barbarorum now, but what makes phalanx so broken? After a certain level of experience, phalanxes are literally invincible from the front. And in city battles, you can block off entire roads with them and basically beat infinite numbers of enemies without losing a man.
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Jul 26, 2013 21:03
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Fangz posted:Wait, I thought spear wall only works on cavalry? Spear wall works on anything that charges into it, but it's most effective on cavalry. Basically why it's the number one reason you want to kite with cavalry rather straight up charge most of the time.
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Jul 26, 2013 21:06
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Jesenjin posted:I've played Rome TW a lot, and am playing Europa Barbarorum now, but what makes phalanx so broken? Phalanxes use a different method for generating damage, and also form a physical obstacle, so for example, a regiment of iberian swordsmen fighting the sacred band don't actually get into close combat, as the spears form a palpable, physical barrier that they can't move into. If you can use them facing directly towards the enemy, they'll always win. Similarly, yari ashigaru work differently from other units in terms of how combat is "rolled". A yari ashigaru basically puts his spear forward, and has a chance to hit, miss or knock back anyone that walks within their range. Since multiple spear points can affect the same area, it's unlikely that any swordsman can actually get into that duel animation that is required to generate a chance for a kill, and even if they do, a spear behind can knock them back and interrupt. This contrasts to normal combat where participants square off and fight one on one. Edit: Old video from multiplayer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Jt7FPECdKM Yukitsu fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Jul 26, 2013 |
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Jul 26, 2013 21:06
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Fangz posted:After a certain level of experience, phalanxes are literally invincible from the front. And in city battles, you can block off entire roads with them and basically beat infinite numbers of enemies without losing a man. That cheesiness. Yeah I know about that one, but didn't though about that one use when I posted. Using it against AI is like shooting fishes in barrel. And my favorite exploit for winning in Rome TW when you are under siege is just to sally forth. AI for some reason retreats even if it has more and better equipped men. (This is on Normal AI, don't know about higher difficulty) Edit: ˄˄˄˄˄˄˄ What I do when I see phalanx is attack it from front and back, and then break up it's formation and swarm it with better quality men. Is that the best way, or am I doing it wrong? Jesenjin fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Jul 26, 2013 |
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Jul 26, 2013 21:07
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Jesenjin posted:That cheesiness. Yeah I know about that one, but didn't though about that one use when I posted. Using it against AI is like shooting fishes in barrel. It is the best way, but you'd have to be an idiot to let it happen.
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Jul 26, 2013 21:10
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Yukitsu posted:This contrasts to normal combat where participants square off and fight one on one. Participants don't actually fight one on one it's just the animations that do that! Any soldier with an opponent in range will generate a combat roll up to around 10 or so (since more men can't fit around the enemy to be in range). Cavalry are less likely to surround infantry (due to their large size) and are more easily surrounded by infantry (as more men can fit around them and therefore attack them!)  e: Also, the Total War Megathread is here. Please take all non LP related talk there (That means all other Total War.)
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Jul 26, 2013 21:11
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EDIT: apparently Shalcar posted during the writing of this post.
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Jul 26, 2013 21:14
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Jesenjin posted:That cheesiness. Yeah I know about that one, but didn't though about that one use when I posted. Using it against AI is like shooting fishes in barrel. Worst part about some of the phalanx formation the AI uses is that I swear they turn on a dime. I've had it happen where I've hit them from behind with a unit of anything, and they just swivel, and instant kill anything, while blocking all attacks. Hate it when the AI uses them.
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Jul 27, 2013 01:01
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Well, it was actually a really hard choice to pick the prize winners of our little Haiku competition! I want to thank everyone who participated (and remind you that Haiku's are perfectly acceptable LP content if you feel the need to keep going!) for all their hard work. Unfortunately, there can only be three winners (and I kind of wish I had more copies to give out, but I'll see if the budget can stretch to a few DLC or something.). In no particular order: cruelangeleo7 posted:Castle gates flung wide Frijolero posted:Lights making color DivineCoffeeBinge posted:Defensive Error Congratulations cruelangeleo7, Frijolero and DivineCoffeeBinge! Please PM or email me your steam email address so that I can send you your prizes! Send your emails to my user name at rpgclassics.com Thanks everyone who participated and I hope to not only see our contest winners in the tournament (I'll give you personal training!) but I also hope that the awesome Haiku's and artwork continue to keep this thread the amazing thread it has been so far! On a slightly less exciting note, I would just like to remind everyone that there are to be no discussions of AI exploits, difficulties higher than Normal or the other Total Wars in this thread please. I would very much appreciate it if the thread could be kept for LP discussion, LP content (haiku's, artwork, jokes, speculation) and Shogun 2 strategy as it applies to the restrictions. Units and buildings in the game are not considered spoilers, so feel free to post away about them. e: Peddler of Smiles and Third Murderer, Please send me a PM/email with the same information (For no reason at all). shalcar fucked around with this message at 10:57 on Jul 29, 2013 |
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Jul 29, 2013 10:35
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A silent blade Spring of 1546  "Meet your new brother" Masanari's mother encouraged. "Say hello to Kagekazu" Masanari looked apprehensive. "Go on" Yasunaga urged. "He really wants to meet you" Masanari moved over to the bundle in his mother's arms, his eyes widening in wonder. "He's so small!" Yasunaga laughed, his rich baritone filling the room with warmth. "You were that small once" "I'll protect him until he's big like me!" announced Masanari. "Then we can go exploring!" Yasunaga looked at his wide-eyed eldest son and his smiling wife cradling the sleeping bundle. For all too brief a moment, the world was perfect. Fantastic news! The birth of a son means that we have a little extra insurance against assassins or unfortunate events, albeit with the caveat that it will take at least 56 turns (14 years) before he is old enough to become a general. While if everything goes well we probably won't need him at that point in time, if things get bogged down then an extra general will make a big difference to holding our many fronts.  "You are going to love this news" the Ikko Ikki ambassador announced, striding into the main hall. "I would love it more if you would learn some manners" noted Yasunaga, dryly. "What good news do you bring?" "The Sakai mon flies no more" replied the ambassador. "The Ikko Ikki have upheld their word as your allies" Yasunaga smiled. "That news is indeed worth skipping formalities. It seems that I am a blessed man" The Sakai to the north, the allies of the Asai, have been destroyed by our allies, the Ikko Ikki. Although this means that our allies are stronger (which is not ideal, allies that are too strong can be liabilities for you) it also means that we are no longer at war with anyone at all. The Hattori are free to set their own path!   Chisato moved through the fields humming a nameless tune, feeling confident. Slipping into the encampment, she made her way towards the quartermasters tents and the vital water and food supplies within. "Leaving guards nearly got me killed last time" she thought. "Best to take no chances." Moving behind the guards, she drove her dagger deep into the back of one guard, her sword flashing as it cut open the other guards throat. An opportunity exists to leave the province of Yamato defenceless and ripe for the taking! If we can get Chisato to sabotage that army outside the fortress, it won't be able to come to the assistance of the garrison and we will easily outrun it. With a 44% chance and only costing 250 koku, it's far too good an opportunity to pass up. You will notice that we also had another option that is currently listed in red, to assassinate the Daimyo leading the stack. It's in red because we currently don't have the koku to perform the mission, but missions can be in red because the likelihood of success is too low (<15%). In this manner, you can't just throw rank one agents against high value targets and hope one gets lucky. We can also see that assassinating Daimyo's is very tricky indeed, as this one is only level 1 but is already almost impossible to kill for an equal level ninja.  The guards fell, Chisato's eyes widening in shock as she tried to catch both at once. With an almighty crash, the bodies tumbled to the floor and shouts of alarm rung out in the camp, bursting into a flurry of activity. "It came from the quartermasters!" yelled a voice of command. Not looking back, Chisato ran as fast as her legs could carry her into the night. Unfortunately for us, Chisato fails in her mission and the army is still fully operational. Fortunately for us, Chisato managed to escape with her life. Not too many rank 1 ninjas get out alive when they mess something up, so I'll take all the silver linings I can get. In addition, failed missions cost exactly half the koku of a successful one, so this failed sabotage mission only cost 125 koku. It's always worth weighing up the costs before doing something risky, as that money could often be put to better use.  "Those Hattori dare!" yelled the Tsutsui Daimyo. "Attempting to sabotage my army in my own lands and now they want war!" "Reports indicate an army encamped near Kyoto of Hattori forces" the assistant noted. "I'll make those fools regret their arrogance" stated the Daimyo, his eyes narrow. Even with that army nearby, I'm confident I can still take the castle, so to that end we declare war on the Tsutsui in Yamato. Our allies the Ikko Ikki and the Ashikaga Shogunate join us, while the Hatakayama join them. Neither the Ikko Ikki or the Ashikaga Shogunate will be able to lift a finger to help us, so it's a purely paper war on their end. The Hatakeyama are to the west of Yamato and so can't directly threaten Hattori lands, although they can reinforce Yamato if given time. Since I don't plan to leave the Tsutsui alive a moment longer, this won't be an issue. What will be an issue, however, is the fact that the western front will still be completely hostile after the Tsutsui are dead.   "THE GLORY OF THE HATTORI RESTS ON YOUR SHOULDERS" thundered Taketoshi. "WE ARE THE FURY OF THE STORM!" We send Taketoshi and his army of 3 Hattori Yari Ashigaru and 1 Hattori Bow Ashigaru and march right into Yamato with the intention of taking it from the Tsutsui.  "LISTEN UP!" bellowed Taketoshi. "The Tsutsui are coming to stop us. We won't let them. We take Yamato from under their noses and use their own walls against them!" "My Lord, is this wise?" questioned the ashigaru captain. "If we get caught we will be crushed between the walls and the enemy." "Hah" sneered Taketoshi. "Best not get caught then! I have utmost faith in your men." "You are staying here, I take it?" replied the captain. Taketoshi's eyes narrowed. "I'll be fighting for those walls right there with you. I'm the last man in, you have my word on that, even if I have to fight the entire Tsutsui force myself." Yamato is defended by 1 Samurai Retainers, but has a reinforcement army of 1 General, 2 Yari Ashigaru and 1 Bow Ashigaru compared to our army of Taketoshi, 3 Hattori Yari Ashigaru and 1 Hattori Bow Ashigaru. Normally I could have skipped the whole attempted sabotage and this reinforcement army by just electing to take a night battle, but since that is something that only the Hattori have access to at the start of the game, I thought it would be a great opportunity to show off what I like to call "A castle race", where our goal is to seize the castle before the enemy reinforcements arrive.  Click here to see the battle! "Take the walls!" bellowed Taketoshi. "Archers, to the west gate, I'll cover the north approach!" A battle cry burst forth from the Hattori forces, as they threw themselves upon the wall. "We buy time for our comrades!" commanded Taketoshi. "If you don't let me in I'll come back from the dead and haunt the lot of you! OVER THE WALL!" This Fort map has, like most fortification maps, quite steep slopes, although they are relatively gentle on two of the approaches. As the enemy reinforcements were to the south-east of the town, that's the direction we can expect to see them come from. Luckily for us, that's also the direction with the steepest slopes, so the enemy army should be very tired by the time they get to the castle. If we get held up, this should be the edge we need. Knowing this, we deploy on the north and the west, hoping to overwhelm the defenders on the walls and take the gates, which should in turn buy us time to capture and hold the central Tenshu.  "I've never been prouder of any men" announced Taketoshi. "Heroes of the Taira could not have done better. I'm proud to serve alongside you." "Thank you, my Lord" responded the ashigaru captain. "Hideyaki's unit held their own against the samurai that resided here. Without their noble efforts, many more of us would not be here." That went off far better than planned! The fact that the Kisho Training allows our troops to deploy even closer than normal bought us so much time that the enemy reinforcements had not even reached the walls before we had captured the town. Normally, without Kisho Training, the timing is a lot tighter, but the principle is the same. Our delaying unit of Hattori Yari Ashigaru is all chewed up, but it's a small price to pay in order to seize a town.  Taketoshi nodded. "Hideyaki and his men are an example to us all that your station does not define you as a man!" Hideyaki saluted. "Just following your lead, sir" "You did more than that" replied Taketoshi. "You and your men are given leave to return home, your service is honourably discharged. Iga needs men like you more than ever. Your families need men like you more than ever." Unsurprisingly, the unit that did most of the killing also did most of the dying, managing to snag a rank for their troubles. Of course, by the time that unit is replenished it will have lost that rank and it's too badly damaged to be cost effective to keep, so we will use the men to top up the remaining ashigaru to full strength and then disband it.   "I'M IN CHARGE NOW" roared Taketoshi to the cowed administrators. "Anyone have a problem with that?" The administrators were silent, heads bowed. "I can't hear you!" bellowed Taketoshi. "No sir!" the administrators replied. "Good" responded Taketoshi, his voice suddenly quiet and full of menace. "I'll throw the first one of you that makes a mistake off the tenshu, personally. Don't make me regret letting you keep your lives." With Yamato now firmly in our control we have the options of keeping it for ourselves, looting it or making it a vassal. From now on assume that I occupy every province I take unless I specify otherwise. Looting provides roughly 12 turns worth of tax income for the province and so can be useful if you don't think you can hold the province for more than a few turns or denying that income to the enemy (with the permanent loss of town wealth!), but with the loss of honour is generally a bad idea. You tend to know a good looting target when you see it. Vassals, on the other hand, can be incredibly lucrative once you have a few unsold trade goods but can be unreliable unless made after Realm Divide. It's often worthwhile to vassalise poor provinces on fronts you don't plan to expand into, as the vassals not only can act like shields against attack from that direction but provide decent income while doing so. Since none of these are applicable to Yamato, we occupy it.   Taketoshi had never seen so many reports, or administrators generating such paperwork at such a pace. He grinned. "Sometimes a little gruff is what gets the job done" he thought to himself. "What's this?" The scroll detailed the construction of a katana school and the formalisation of the training regimes. "Now, this" he thought. "This is useful stuff." Yamato is a province of moderate wealth, containing a Fort, Sword School, Rice Paddies (Fertile Soil), Trails and a Holy Site. This is a very valuable province strategically for us, as we currently do not have the art required in order to build a Sword School, so for the near future at least, Yamato is the only place where we can train katana troops. With the Holy Site province speciality, Yamato is able to produce either exceptionally experienced Warrior Monk units or raise the morale of all units produced here as well as making master Monk agents depending on how we choose to develop it. For the time being, we lack the arts to take advantage of either option (being unable to build temples for Monk agents or Warrior Monk troops), so it will be some time before we can make use of it.   The first building in the Sword chain, the Sword School allows the recruitment of Katana Samurai units, the prime anti-infantry units of Shogun 2. Ingame encyclopaedia - Sword School posted:The sword school allows the recruitment of katana samurai units. Use of the sword is a serious business, and the teaching and practise of sword fighting is equally serious. Students are expected to approach the subject with the deepest reverence. This is not unsurprising, given that a katana, or long sword, can easily sever a limb if handled carelessly!   The first building in the Holy Site chain, the Holy Site increases the skill of monk agents produced in the province, as well as providing a small experience bonus to all warrior monk troops created there. It can be upgraded into one of two separate buildings. Ingame encyclopaedia - Holy Site posted:This province has a site of religious significance. By developing this site, better monks can be produced for use on the battlefield as fanatical warriors. Alternatively, the site can be developed along less martial lines, and be inspirational to all the clan's warriors, increasing their morale on the battlefield. This more contemplative approach also allows monk agents to be trained to a high standard.  "The Tsutsui never knew what hit them!" boasted Taketoshi. "The Hattori demonstrate their power to all Japan!" "That's all well and good, my Lord" replied the ashigaru capatin. "But their Daimyo and primary force are unlikely to just slink off into the night." With the capture of Yamato, our war with the Tsutsui is over as swiftly as it has begun. Another clan joins the ranks of the fallen, the fate of all those who oppose the Hattori.  "That's a salient point" noted Taketoshi. "I expect they would have moved their forces towards the border, trying to buy time" "I agree it's the best way to go" replied the ashigaru captain. "They will have unfettered access to our outer holdings." Taketoshi's eyes narrowed. "Good men died to take this town, we won't let it be for nothing. Order the men to form up, we march." Like the Asai, however, their Daimyo and troops are still in the field, ready to do grave damage to us. Our overwhelming success in taking the fort without engaging them meant that while the earlier battle was much easier, the one to come will be far harder than if we had used their own walls against them.  "YOU CAN BE TIRED WHEN YOU ARE DEAD" bellowed Taketoshi. "No point doing half the job! We end the Tsutsui once and for all." We can't afford to have them running rampant and our forces are the equal of theirs, so Taketoshi sets forth to eliminate this threat.  "The enemy forces believe themselves to be our equal" announced Taketoshi. "But they make a critical mistake! No man is the equal of a Hattori!" A cheer went up from the troops. "I don't expect this to be easy" Taketoshi continued. "I do expect it to be done. I personally swear I will collect many heads, by your side!" A perfectly even fight, with both sides having a General, 2 Yari Ashigaru and 1 Bow Ashigaru (although ours are Hattori versions, giving us a slight deployment edge). Perfectly symmetrical fights are very rare in Shogun 2 and are almost always decided by the superior use of the landscape or by capitalising on your enemies mistakes. For some reason, completely even fights feel a lot more tense, especially with such small numbers as the slightest mistake can turn total victory into total defeat. To make things worse, their forces have slightly better morale than ours, as they are lead by their Daimyo, while we only have a General.  Click here to see the battle! "It's no good!" screamed the archery sergeant. "We can't strike their troops while they are in the trees! I'm losing men!" "Archers, fall back! Spears, forward!" commanded Taketoshi. He adjusted his armour and turned to his bodyguards. "Let's show those bastards how Hattori fight." While an incredibly interesting map, it doesn't really work in our favour. We want to meet the enemy on open ground and take advantage of our superior generalship, but if we deploy on the open ground we run the risk of the other army hiding on the hill and forest to the south, which would make our attack incredibly difficult. Instead, we need to deploy down there, but that seriously limits our options for skirmish and cavalry action. The one saving grace is that we can deploy directly on the hill with our Kisho Training and so deny it to the enemy, but I doubt the AI is going to be stupid enough to attack us while we are there.  "The day is ours!" cheered the ashigaru captain. "Run these bastards down, no mercy!" Adrenaline coursing through his veins, Taketoshi laughed. "Hattori! Hattori! Hattori!" A wonderful victory, but it could just have easily been the other way around. With the terrain locking out the effective use of our Hattori Bow Ashigaru, we were forced to use Taketoshi to swing the balance our way, always a risky move with ashigaru. Fortunately for us, it paid off and eliminated a key threat to our provinces making it a risk well worth taking.  "Once again, I am amazed and proud of the skills and courage you demonstrated here today" announced Taketoshi. "A grave threat to the people of this province has been eliminated." "You were incredible, my Lord" gushed the ashigaru captain. "How could men falter under such leadership?" "A leader is nothing without his men" replied Taketoshi. "If I had an army of men such as you, I could conquer all of Japan." While all the melee units performed well, Taketoshi really demonstrated the power of a well timed charge and slew many enemy units gaining his unit a full 3 combat ranks while only losing a handful of men. This extra melee capability will further cement his ability to deal damage in combat and let us punish enemy mistakes heavily. We will be limited by the glacial replenishment time that all general units suffer, but early on it's a nice advantage to have.  Men looked at Taketoshi with a new-found respect. He was not some common lord, willing to risk the men under his command while he stayed behind the lines. Taketoshi's willingness to lead from the front and fight in the bloodiest parts of the battle inspired the men and marked the beginning of a legend. The continued experience in battle has paid dividends and Taketoshi has gained a general rank. As he is on the front which still contains the hostile Hatakeyama, any additional army power that we can gain is critical to helping secure a swift end to the fighting.    Our two retainer choices for this rank are Master Drummer and Hayashida Heihachi, boosting Rally and melee attack of katana troops respectively. The boost to Rally is extremely nice, but generally speaking by the time a unit that has been rallied is routing, a small amount of extra morale buys maybe a few seconds. It's probably the better of the two in an objective manner as katana troops already have very good attack and so don't really need any more (although it's always nice), but Rally can be critical when you are up against the wall.  "The battle can be won before men are even on the field" stated Taketoshi. "Battle is as much about position as it is about combat." "I'm not sure I understand, my Lord" replied the ashigaru captain. "How can you win without fighting?" "We defeated the Tsutsui by being inside their walls before they could respond" Taketoshi responded. "That is how you seize victory without battles." We decide to put two points into Strategist for the hugely useful extra campaign movement, as we don't really need anything from the Warrior tree at the moment and with the amount of movement that we will need to do in order to secure the provinces to the west, we will need the speed. In almost all cases, your first two points will go into Strategist as it's just far too useful in too many situations to ignore.    "My Lord, you must see this!" the ashigaru captain announced. "This man's skill is beyond anything I have ever seen!" Taketoshi followed the excited man down to the courtyard, where a large crowd had gathered to observe a practise match. Taketoshi recognised one of the men as a member of his bodyguard, but the other was a stranger. Seemingly able to move his practise sword through the guard of his opponent, the stranger disarmed and put his practise blade at their neck. "I yield!" "Impressive" announced Taketoshi. "Who are you, to best one of my finest so easily?" The stranger turned and bowed. "I am Hayashida Haihachi, a fencer of the Wood Cut school, my Lord" "Haihachi, I have need of such men as you" replied Taketoshi, turning and walking towards his council hall. "Come with me." We decide to take Hayashida Haihachi for the little extra oomph with katana units, simply because it's quite helpful in sieges (Samurai Retainers also benefit) and with our Sword School in Yamato, we should see some benefit from it shortly. Summer of 1546  "They go on forever!" announced Masanari. "This must be enough rice to fill the entire world!" Yasunaga laughed. "Perhaps not that much, but Omi is a very fertile province. It will help show the greatness of the Hattori to the whole world." "Then I shall protect it too!" announced Masanari, his face suddenly becoming concerned. "But if you have gone away I won't be able to see over this wall!" Yasunaga tried, and failed, to suppress a smile as he ruffled Masanari's hair. "When I leave Omi you shall return to Iga with your mother and baby brother. We will need you to defend our ancestral home." Masanari gave this some thought, before nodding to himself. "I'll protect it from everything, dad. I promise." Yasunaga knelt down and engulfed Masanari in a hug. "Don't ever grow up, my son. You are perfect the way you are." The first of our economic boosting buildings comes online in Omi, providing an impressive 450 wealth and 1 food due to the very high fertility of the province. If we can keep being efficient with our military forces and invest heavily in our economy early, it will pay massive dividends come realm divide.  "You have a great and mighty legacy to live up to" announced the garrison commander to the new recruits. "The men of Yamato are known throughout Japan for their courage and valour! Prove your reputation right and you will be true men of the Hattori!" We recruit an extra unit of Hattori Yari Ashigaru in Yamato to help cement our control on the province. It's always a good idea to produce some extra ashigaru in a freshly conquered province as they tend to be on your front lines and a few extra troops where you tend to need them most rarely go astray, especially this early on when we are running with such small armies!  The men of Iga had always had options to appeal an unjust or brutal local administrator. Other provinces, however, had not always been so lucky. As the power of the Hattori spread throughout Japan, so did this rightful pillar of justice, giving all, peasant and samurai alike, a chance to bring their problems to a higher power. As faith in this oversight grew, corruption and cruelty was reduced, merchants were encouraged and the society worked that little bit better. Todofuken continues our drive to start our economic engine providing a critical 5% reduction to our ludicrous troop upkeep costs as well as unlocking the always useful Post Roads and Stations as well as the rather nice Rice Exchange. Not only this, it's the pre-requisite for Equal Fields, our early game research goal. A few Rice Exchanges in your key economic provinces can pay off solid dividends in the short and mid term and while they become less attractive on the longer campaigns, as this LP is on the standard size, they are a solid investment.   Ingame encyclopaedia - Todofuken posted:A daimyo who wishes to hold his lands must be prepared for war with one hand and maintain peace with his other. Laws and administrators keep the people in order and, if such laws are fair and just, then they will also be content with their rulers. A wise daimyo establishes a hierarchy of commissioners, councillors, tax collectors, secret police and magistrates. Each answers to his superior for his conduct, leaving the daimyo and his advisors to consider strategy and policy.  "My Lord, the Oda have announced their control of Mino" reported the advisor. "We share a border with the descendants of Ietoyo." Yasunaga looked thoughtful. "What of the old owners, the Saito?" We discover that Mino, the province to the east of Omi, now has new owners, the Oda. I'm unsure about this development, as the Oda are only a few provinces big and I do need to conquer Mino, so I face the eternal choice of to trade with them and shore up that border or simply to ignore them and move when the time is right.  "They have been destroyed, my Lord" replied the advisor. "They are a powerful clan no more." The Saito used to own Mino before the Oda kicked them out and now another clan is eliminated from Japan. While the number of clans thins rapidly early on as everyone consolidates, these sorts of single province eliminations will become significantly less common later on.  "It's time for a hot meal, a hot bath and a hot woman!" announced Taketoshi. "We march for Yamato!" As Taketoshi didn't quite manage to get back to the safety of Yamato last turn, we now take the liberty of putting him and his men in charge of the garrison there. No need to antagonise the Kitabatake to the east of Yamato any more than necessary!   Granary sabotage. Every Hattori ninja was required to perform a mock one before they were given their first real mission. Failing the test was joking referred to ask "Being Nakamitsu", an honour reserved for the best and the worst. "Failure to die is the best talent there is", a tutor had told her once. It had seemed stupid at the time, but now that her life really was at risk, it suddenly seemed incredibly apt. Now she had a real granary to sabotage, guarded by real troops and the real risk of death. It was said that if it could bleed, Nakamitsu had slain them all, usually in bulk. Sabotage was never the strong suit of the Iga ninja. Silently, she worked her way towards the granary. The lands of the Hatakeyama provide ample opportunity for sabotage and scouting all in one high value package like Chisato. To that end we decide to cause a little low cost trouble and burn down their outlying farmsteads for the experience.  Click here to see the mission!  She tripped! Of all the things to happen, tripping over a discarded wooden post and slamming into the granary wall had to rate as her most embarrassing. Silently cursing, Chisato picked herself up and looked around for signs of alarm. Guards with lanterns became visible, the granary guards becoming alert and suspicious. No matter how Chisato looked, she just couldn't see a way in. She had failed. Sadly for us, Chisato once again fails in her mission. On the upside, she survives it and since it was just a chance to cause mischief and of little strategic importance, not much is lost. Nevertheless, it's always a good idea to have your agents be doing something cost effective for experience so that they can be ready for when the critical mission arrives.  "Why had her luck gone sour?" Chisato wondered. "What was she doing differently to make the last few missions such a disaster?" She idly ran her fingers up and down the handle of her dagger. Suddenly, she stopped. That was it! "Observation!" she thought. "I've been so busy focusing on the big or the small that I lose track of what is important!" That paltry 3 xp was enough to push Chisato over into rank 2, making her missions more likely to succeed, cheaper and with a lesser risk of death. We got lucky and it worked out cheaper than hiring a brand new rank 2 ninja from Iga, so it's especially welcomed. and justifies our ninja aggression.  She thought back to her training and the feats of skill and pranks that the students used to pull. The highest prestige feat was to sneak into Masanari's room and take one of his wooden toy soldiers as proof. No-one had ever managed it, but Chisato had been determined to. The students had been all abuzz that she was trying it and talk had gone around the school for weeks. Her approach had been better than ninjas ten years her senior and she had managed to make it all the way to Masanari's bedroom before a man had stepped out of the shadows, put a blade to her throat and demanded her explanation. She had broken down and told him about the prank and the man had escorted her under guard all the way back to the ninja school. Rumours circulated that she had been captured by Yasunaga himself, but she always dismissed them out of hand. Now she wasn't so sure. Was that why she was chosen above all the others? Given the target rich environment of this part of Japan and taking into account that the most important action an agent can perform right now is information gathering, we put a point in both Spy and Saboteur. This will improve Chisato's ability to see what troops are inside an army and see them from further away, as well as making the sabotage of buildings much less risky and slightly cheaper. As setting things on fire is one of the easiest ways to rank up a low level ninja, this will really help kickstart our plans to make ninja to be feared, as well as making it a little more likely to sabotage castle gates.        Our choice of retainers are the Flash Powder Bombs and Sushi Chef, increasing the effectiveness of assassination and escape or likelihood of critical effects, respectively. If a critical success is rolled, different things happen for different missions. A critical success for assassination kills the target, removing them permanently, unlike a regular success which wounds them and takes them out of action for a few turns. Critical success for sabotage of armies and buildings simply increases the number of men killed or the damage dealt to the building and so is not particularly appealing. Given that you get +5% to base critical success of assassination for each star, Flash Powder Bombs is the only real choice.  "The bombs!" she thought. "I had forgotten all about them!" After he had confirmed her story with the ninja masters, the man had given her a satchel of bombs that exploded in a incredibly bright white light and lots of smoke. She had no idea what made them or where they could be acquired, no training mission ever important enough and now forgotten in the rush of being chosen. Perhaps these were the edge she needed. We go with Flash Powder Bombs to round out Chisato's skillset and also to make her slightly more likely to survive in the event of a failed mission. Like the idea of success and critical success, mission failure has three possible outcomes. The first outcome is detection and death, the second outcome is detection and escaping, while the third outcome is non-detection and escaping. Given that "better" outcomes push the lesser ones off the dice roll (down to a minimum, they can never be eliminated completely), this basically reduces the likelihood of Chisato dying in a failed mission by 5%, not too shabby.  Like all the skill trees in vanilla Shogun 2, the Ninja skill tree is a complete mess with wildly disproportionate skills. While there is a real synergy on the right hand side of the tree based on assassination, the middle and left side are a total mismatch of skills that boost all of the various ninja attributes with little cohesion. While it's possible to see that the middle tree is meant to make your ninja more survivable, the boosts are so minor as to be of real limited effectiveness. A ninja that never dies is nice, but if they don't have the skill to do their job they are little more than a cash sink. There is a nice synergy with adding campaign movement though, which can let you move a truly ludicrous distance with an army if you manage to make it that far, but the problem is that all the pre-requisites lack any success boosting abilities, making the chances of being useful on the way there minimal. On the other hand, if you fill out the left side and get Noble Bandit and Defender of the People, your ninja abilities become free. The tree has the perfect number of points to do this and fill out the assassination side, making building ninjas any other way almost pointless. In fact, with the total lack of cohesion in the ninja tree, not going for Noble Bandit and Defender of the People is a little like avoiding Infantry Leader in the General tree. You could do it, but there really isn't any good reason to.  "You need the money and we need to demonstrate our good will towards you" stated Taketoshi bluntly to the ambassador. "You don't need to accept the deal, but it would be better to be friends, don't you think?" "A clan has few true friends" replied the ambassador. "I doubt your altruism in this deal. We will, however, accept." It looks like we will have our hands full dealing with the Hatakeyama in the next 10 or so turns and we need to stabilise our eastern Yamato front. One of the better ways to do this is to get a trade agreement with the clan to raise their opinion of you up front and then slowly continue to improve as time passes. It also gives you some extra koku that's ever essential to keeping your economy and military ticking along nicely. Sneak Peak: Seizing green fields... shalcar fucked around with this message at 08:35 on Aug 4, 2013 |
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Aug 4, 2013 06:22
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shalcar posted:Sneak Peak: Seizing green fields... Kii next, I take it? Also I'm really starting to like Taketoshi.  He basically won that second battle by himself, the spears were just there to pick at his scraps. Also I think this is the first time in 300+ hours that I've ever seen perfectly mirrored armies fight. Same troops, same numbers, same vetting... how rare. Not that it helped the AI much. 
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Aug 4, 2013 08:49
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Hmmm... I generally never go for the left side. The problem is that the first three skills are all about scouting and spy networks and so are totally irrelevant to what my ninja does generally. By the time you actually get to the cost reduction skills, my ninjas would have spent so much money already, and the savings would be useless relative to the risk of losing my high level ninja. I tend instead to focus on misdirection for the army sabotage options, and then grab assassination later. Does opening castle gates use building sabotage?
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Aug 4, 2013 08:59
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One of our winners has let me know that they forgot to put that they already owned the game in their haiku post, so I have picked another lucky prizewinner!K Prime posted:Soldiers all fall K Prime please send me your details as per my previous post so I can give you your prize! Congratulations! I'm also still waiting on Peddler of Smiles's details. Fangz posted:Hmmm... I generally never go for the left side. The problem is that the first three skills are all about scouting and spy networks and so are totally irrelevant to what my ninja does generally. By the time you actually get to the cost reduction skills, my ninjas would have spent so much money already, and the savings would be useless relative to the risk of losing my high level ninja. I guess it's more personal preference in a way, but generally speaking it's possible to have all the builds (Building sabotage, army sabotage and assassination) combined with the free actions. While this does mean you don't get to mix both (army sabotage and assassinations, for example), I find the reduced costs to be far more useful than a little bit more flexibility, especially when mixed with army sabotage, as it's quite possible for a sabotage to cost in excess of 2-3k koku. Actually, Army Sabotage is a bad example as you can max out the bonuses you get by rank 2 with only 4 points, so you get an extra 2 to play with even if you grab the free abilities tree. You really just miss being able to do both things at once, but you tend to find ninjas get most of their rank up from burning farms or speciality buildings anyway. I'm not sure I understand your point about not bothering with cost reduction skills because you have to invest so much in them. You have to invest that money regardless of what you do with them, so it doesn't really have an opportunity cost (in your one speciality field, obviously you forfeit a second speciality). If you get a dozen missions out of your rank 6, that's between 6-12k koku you saved by taking those abilities, which can be critical in Realm Divide. If your arguement is that the ninja is more likely to die because they have to spend skills in the pre-requisites, that's not really the case as you build them in such a way that you fill out the bulk of your points in the boosting skill first, as the cost reduction skills are rank 5 and 6, so can be filled out last if you plan your build well. It does mean your rank 5/6 ninja doesn't get that extra boost in his second speciality, but to be honest rank 5/6 ninja are more than capable of doing everything but the trickiest sabotages or assassinations anyway. Fangz posted:Does opening castle gates use building sabotage? It does.
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Aug 5, 2013 00:58
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Well, my point is that getting a ninja even up to level 6 represents a massive expense, of both time and mission completion money, moreso if you count the risk of losing all that investment if you fail a mission badly or run into the wrong metsuke. Getting two up to level 6 to nab both specializations means twice the cost, more if there aren't enough genuinely useful ninja mission opportunities to feed them exp through. Ignoring the left hand tree means you get someone who can perform acceptably in both specializations that much earlier and cheaper initially, and which makes it easier to have two (for instance covering both fronts of the war), and giving you a bit more redundancy. The cost is that in the extreme long term they can cost you much more, if they survive, but the earlier parts of the game tend to be the ones where money is tightest, anyway. It's also much easier and safer to level up an already high level ninja in a second specialisation, than from scratch. Fangz fucked around with this message at 12:02 on Aug 5, 2013 |
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Aug 5, 2013 01:42
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Just throwing this out there, but the writing of this LP is really, really good. This is one of the screenshot LPs I take in in its utter entirety.
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Aug 5, 2013 02:24
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ChaosSamusX posted:Just throwing this out there, but the writing of this LP is really, really good. This is one of the screenshot LPs I take in in its utter entirety. Cheers! A lot of work goes into this, so I appreciate the kind words. Well, it seems like no-one has any comments or questions, so I may as well respond to Fangz. First off I just want to say that if the trees were remotely cohesive and balanced, I would agree with you completely, but the problem is that they are not. Fangz posted:Well, my point is that getting a ninja even up to level 6 represents a massive expense, of both time and mission completion money, moreso if you count the risk of losing all that investment if you fail a mission badly or run into the wrong metsuke. Getting two up to level 6 to nab both specializations means twice the cost, more if there aren't enough genuinely useful ninja mission opportunities to feed them exp through. I'm going to operate on the assumption that everyone goes for the full five ninjas, as that's the one that has the most relationship with a real in-game scenario, at least when we are discussing heavily ranked ninjas. It does represent a substantial expense (although it can be done as cheaply as 2000 koku or 1400 with the ninja clans speciality building!), but it's important to remember that the time expense is able to be taken in parallel. It's interesting that you talk about the risk of losing investment considering that the risk is equally borne by both the generalist and specialist strategies, a dead rank 6 is a dead rank 6, there are other ninjas (if not, why are all your eggs in one basket?). Generalist strategies are also only able to become generalist from specialist in the last 2 ranks or so simply due to lack of points, so for the first four ranks, it's indistinguishable from the specialist strategy, as they both take exactly the same skills. You also can't max out both sabotage and assassinations as it takes 14 points out of an available 12, so by it's very nature your generalist is going to have to be inferior to an associated specialist. You can argue that at the higher levels the difference is limited and it has a lot of merit, but the issue is always the incredibly difficult missions (Sabotaging that full stack of monks and samurai or assassinating that 5 star Daimyo) which come at incredible expense, expense that isn't really required. Fangz posted:Ignoring the left hand tree means you get someone who can perform acceptably in both specializations that much earlier and cheaper initially, and which makes it easier to have two (for instance covering both fronts of the war), and giving you a bit more redundancy. The cost is that in the extreme long term they can cost you much more, if they survive, but the earlier parts of the game tend to be the ones where money is tightest, anyway. You can't though, you literally don't have the points at the lower level to break into both trees without hugely increasing the risk of death of your ninja relative to early specialisation. That also ignores that the Realm Divide cash crunch tends to happen right around when you get a rank 5/6 if you start early... Fangz posted:It's also much easier and safer to level up an already high level ninja in a second specialisation, than from scratch. This one is pretty debatable in several senses. While it's completely true that once a ninja hits rank 3/4, they are able to farm their experience missions (sabotaging farms, sabotaging 1 or 2 unit armies) relatively safely, it also takes significantly more of these to gain the extra rank compared to the fresh ninja (4 successful missions to rank 3 from 1 compared with needing 6 more to rank 4 from 3) and they will end up incredibly competitive, star wise. You take it further and you can be basically drowning in reasonably ranked ninjas and if you lose one, so what? Lastly, let's imagine the endgame, where we both have 5 ninjas running around at rank 5/6. You can't actually afford to run 5 useful ninja missions a turn. Hell, running 2-3 useful ninja missions tends to wipe out whatever income you made in that turn, especially if you need a decent sized army sabotaged. There are a huge number of cash considerations towards the endgame where having even a single free ninja makes an enormous difference. Do you bribe the army, sabotage it or build a garrison force? Having one of these options being free means getting two shots at hauling yourself from the fire and maybe even start preparing for your counter-attack with the money you would otherwise have spent. This, of course, completely ignores the hilariously broken skill combination in the left hand tree(s) that no-one ever goes for because they are too busy filling out the assassin tree. But then, no-one ever actually *looks* at the trees. I want to re-iterate that I don't think your idea is lacking in merit, just like builds lacking Infantry Leader are not lacking in merit, but you can really end up selling yourself short for very little gain by ignoring what it gives you. Of course, Shogun 2 is a pretty easy game so I guess it doesn't really matter much.
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Aug 6, 2013 12:54
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Tried playing Shogun 2 for the first time last weekend. Played as the Shimazu, since it seemed like a good beginner clan. Haven't played any Total War game since Rome, so I wasn't sure what I was getting in to. Took over Kyushu easily enough, grabbing all the named victory provinces I need besides Kyoto, but I think I took too long in doing so. Cleaning up the Otomo took a while, and they generally were a pain in the rear end with their spreading Christianity everywhere giving me minor problems with public order, especially in their former home provinces. Allied with the Chosokabe later, but they wound up taking all of Shikoku and most of southern Honshu. Was able to grab a few provinces on the mainland here and there, but I think I'll have a hell of a time defending them once Realm Divide hits. At least they're connected to one another, so I can shift armies around there where needed when it comes down to it... The mainland of Honshu has basically consolidated under the Hattori around Kyoto after they took out the Ikko Ikki, the Date up north, the Uesugi in the Kanto region, the aforementioned Chosokabe in the south, and the Hojo hanging around on the coasts around Kanto but about to get swallowed up by the Hattori and Uesugi. Dunno where I can go from here, I'm nowhere near Realm Divide, only about 2/3 of the way up the meter. Only hold 11 provinces outright, so unless I declare on the Hattori or something, all my avenues for expansion are blocked. And once Realm Divide hits, the Chosokabe are in a perfect position to hit my tender underside in Kyushu, unless I deal with their holdings in southern Honshu first. Any advice would be helpful, but I'm pretty sure I'm not going to have the time to be able to play again until the end of the month, so no rush. Probably should have asked in the general Total War thread, but I've learned a lot so far about the early game from reading this LP, shalcar, so thanks for that. On the other hand, I managed to win a Fall of the Samurai campaign for the first time this morning, once I figured out how to use gun troops in sieges well. But that's a story for another thread, like an upcoming Fall of the Samurai LP that you've hinted at before, shalcar. Still, best to finish this one first, I would think... GhostStalker fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Aug 7, 2013 |
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Aug 6, 2013 22:03
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GhostStalker posted:Dunno where I can go from here, I'm nowhere near Realm Divide, only about 2/3 of the way up the meter. Only hold 11 provinces outright, so unless I declare on the Hattori or something, all my avenues for expansion are blocked. And once Realm Divide hits, the Chosokabe are in a perfect position to hit my tender underside in Kyushu, unless I deal with their holdings in southern Honshu first. I just finished a Shimazu campaign. I had spent most of the early game planning on walking up the bottom of the main island, but an opportunistic stabbing of my back took me to wiping out the Chosokabe, and fully taking Honshu. I went to the mainland from there. Fortunately the whole area around Kyoto was a clusterfuck so it was easy to establish a three-province foothold (the realm divide happened a couple of battles after 14 provinces for me) and bide my time until everybody wore themselves down. I made my move on realm divide, and I secured Kyoto and the final half of my province requirement in two years and little fuss (thank god for vassals), but you're mileage is probably going to vary if Kyoto and its surrounds are secure. When you do make your move, though, be sure you have lots of money in the bank to buffer the trade loss, and be prepared to capture like mad to grow it back.
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Aug 6, 2013 22:16
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GhostStalker posted:Stuff Do the Chokosabe love you, or so they merely like you? If the former, time to do an amphibious landing, probably south of Kyoto. If the latter, backstab them fast.
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Aug 6, 2013 22:30
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Fangz posted:Do the Chokosabe love you, or so they merely like you? If the former, time to do an amphibious landing, probably south of Kyoto. If the latter, backstab them fast. They love me, since I allied with them really early. Like right after I met them and proposed a trade agreement. The problem with the amphibious landing approach is that I'm pretty friendly and have extensive trade relations with both the Hattori and Uesugi as well, and the former are the ones who hold all the territory around Kyoto. I could do an amphibious landing to take out the remains of the Hojo around the Kanto area, and I think that's what it's going to come down to. There's still a two province minor clan that's bordering my holdings in the middle of Honshu over by Kyoto and I'm at war with them, so that's another expansion opportunity. I know the strength of an amphibious landing, as that's how I won my Fall of the Samurai campaign, fittingly, as the Satsuma. Landed a couple of armies in Edo Bay. Of course, I wasn't the one who finally took Edo, who went to one of the AI clans that supported the Emperor, but it still counted as the Imperial side controlling Edo, and fulfilled that victory condition. Speaking of Fall, right after Realm Divide, when I became the Imperial Vanguard, the amount of times my armies and generals kept saying "For the Emperor!" made me think I was in a 40k game. This is even more spectacular when you realize that Sega was the one who picked up Relic when THQ went bust along with the possibility of their 40k license. In addition, Creative Assembly, a subsidiary of Sega, holds the license to make Warhammer Fantasy games. So maybe we could see a 40k Total War game in the not so far future... At least, one can hope... GhostStalker fucked around with this message at 00:41 on Aug 8, 2013 |
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Aug 6, 2013 22:38
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