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Well, you can't be friends with everyone forever...
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Aug 6, 2013 23:29
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| # ? Apr 26, 2024 07:33 |
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GhostStalker posted:Dunno where I can go from here, I'm nowhere near Realm Divide, only about 2/3 of the way up the meter. Only hold 11 provinces outright, so unless I declare on the Hattori or something, all my avenues for expansion are blocked. And once Realm Divide hits, the Chosokabe are in a perfect position to hit my tender underside in Kyushu, unless I deal with their holdings in southern Honshu first.
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Aug 7, 2013 05:40
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Fangz posted:Well, you can't be friends with everyone forever... True, but I also don't want the Honor hit for breaking an alliance, or to send my economy crashing to the ground by declaring war on a Clan I was trading with. Maybe I should just hit the Date in the north with an amphibious landing, since they're the only ones that I'm not trading with. Only problem with that is that my lands will be utterly disconnected and hence hard to defend when Realm Divide hits...
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Aug 7, 2013 20:08
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GhostStalker posted:Maybe I should just hit the Date in the north with an amphibious landing, since they're the only ones that I'm not trading with. Only problem with that is that my lands will be utterly disconnected and hence hard to defend when Realm Divide hits... Actually, not a bad idea. The Date home province has a smith, so you can build that province up to allow you to create very nasty infantry. Also, there's a trade node for iron on that end of the map that the Date probably own. Although iron isn't particularly valuable, a full stack of merchants should generate enough income to fund a full land stack to garrison the north. Lastly, the advantage of attacking from the north is that you don't have to worry about having an opponent in your rear areas, or managing more than one or maybe two fronts simultaneously. Once the Date are out of the way there are no more immediate threats and you can focus on wearing down your opponents. Lastly, IIRC there is a province on the south-eastern part of the map that every clan must acquire as a victory condition (Musashi, I think). Having a northern base of operations would put that area in striking distance either from land or amphibious assault. Also, have you considered making use of your special characters? The monk is able to incite rebellions, which will nearly always succeed in wresting control from the rightful owner in any province with a small garrison. Rebels are at war with everyone, so you can then conquer the province with no diplomatic problems whatsoever. Be sure to park your invasion force right on the border with your targeted province before you try to incite a rebellion, lest your opponent quickly stamp out the rebels before you get a chance to invade. If enemy forces are present in the province, but not serving as garrison for the capital, other characters can be used to lock those forces in place, preventing the enemy from using them to defend or retake the capital.
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Aug 7, 2013 23:49
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Good to see you kicking this one off. Looking forward to some pretty impressive sieges and invasions in the future, given how well you seem suited to going over the walls.
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Aug 8, 2013 05:35
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Seizing green fields Autumn of 1546  "So many people, dad!" exclaimed Masanari, staring wide eyed at the bustling Omi market. "There must be all of Japan here!" Yasunaga laughed. "Not that many, but a great many people rely on this market for their livelihoods." Masanari unslung the bow from his back and struck a serious pose. "I'll keep them safe dad!" Yasunaga grinned and struck a fighting stance. "We protect all our people, that is our duty!" Suddenly, he sprung, tickling Masanari and the two went down in a fit of giggles. "Must you both you and Taketoshi encourage this silliness?" his wife sighed, the infant Kagekazu in her arms. "I'm not sure I could handle both of you." Yasunaga stood up, a sheepish grin on his face as he adjusted his ruffled clothes, one quick wink to Masanari and he turned to face his wife. "Sorry dear." We ensure our economy has a solid foundation early, by constructing markets in both Omi and Iga. It's critical in the early game to get to at least five markets as soon as practicable as each market allows you to recruit an additional metsuke up to a maximum of five, in addition to the quite impressive boost to the province from the markets themselves. Metsuke are your hidden weapon in Realm Divide, able to get the absolute most out of your tax based economy. The earlier you recruit the metsuke, the more experience they will have and the more they can help you when you need them most. By getting these two markets as early as we have, we give ourselves the best possible chance to get our empire off to a strong start.   Cost: 850 The first building in the Market chain, the Market increases the wealth of the province, the town growth of the province and allows the recruitment of Metsuke up to the number of Market chain buildings in your empire (Maximum of 5). Ingame encyclopaedia - Market posted:A market adds to a province's wealth and growth, and also allows a clan to recruit metsuke as agents. When two peasants barter, there is a market. When many come to do the same, there is wealth to be made and probably taxed. A permanent market can offer many services and goods for everyone in the province, and allow people to sell their surplus goods. Once people can trade, they can specialise, even a little, produce more and then trade for what they lack. A wise ruler encourages this.  "A Hattori soldier is worth a dozen lesser men!" the captain boomed. "Where they are soft, we are hard. Where they are weak, we are strong. Where they are blinded by light, we are the shadow." Our mobilisation continues, with the recruitment of a further two Hattori Yari Ashigaru in Iga and a Hattori Bow Ashigaru in Yamato. With the rapid expansion we have undertaken and the new lands we need to defend, recruitment of additional troops will be critical in ensuring our borders remain secure and our provinces stable.  "My Lord, two great western clans vie for supremacy, the Shimazu and the Otomo" announced the advisor. "We must begin making plans to be on good terms with the winner." "We have no information on who that might be" replied Yasunaga. "The only thing we know is that the Otomo are heathens, following some dead god named Christ." "Should we dispatch ninja to discover more, my Lord?" questioned the advisor. "No" responded Yasunaga. "We have too many immediate concerns to worry ourselves with such distant troubles." Two major clans to the west, the Christian Otomo and Buddhist Shimazu are no longer able to peaceful co-exist and have broken out into open warfare. Depending on who wins, we can expect to see hordes of gunners or swordsmen come our way in Realm Divide, as it's very rare for the winner of this war to not become a major western power.   Tokinaga paced in his room, his face worried. "The runner should have given me my posting by now!" he thought. "Did I not pass? Have they no use for me?" A knock on the door broke his concentration. Opening it, Tokinaga was relieved to see the seal of a Hattori messenger. "Are you Tokinaga?" inquired the messenger. "I have most urgent business with him." "I am" Tokinaga replied. "What is your message?" "You are to report the Daimyo himself" responded the messenger. "You were the first of your class and the Hattori have need of your skills." With the construction of the market in Omi, our first order of business is to recruit a metsuke. For a mere 500 koku, this will be one of, if not the single, best investment in the game for us.   Muneaki downed his sake and his friends cheered. "Congratulations on the new job!" exclaimed one. "What do you do, exactly?" asked another. "Stamp out corruption and make sure taxes are paid" replied Muneaki. "Something about keeping the place safe from ninja or something. I'm not too sure on the details." "Corruption? Didn't your dad buy the job?" noted one. "I saw your results, you were way down there." "That's not corruption!" protested Muneaki. "That's.... that's perks, that is." His brow furrowed. "I need another drink!" Of course, the market in Iga can also produce a metsuke and does so, although with Iga being significantly less valuable, we will see lesser returns compared to Omi. Despite that, it will be one of the better investments we will ever make.   "If we don't pick up the pace, I'll make you march without shoes!" declared the captain. "Taketoshi can't wait around forever and I don't want to be on the end of his wrath!" We dispatch our freshly recruited troops from Iga and march them towards Yamato. With the western front our expansion front at this point in time, it's critical to get Taketoshi's forces to at least a half stack, if not a 3/4 stack.  "This can't be right" Chisato thought to herself as she moved silently through the Kii castle courtyard. "Where is everyone?" The lights in the barracks flickered, but the rest of the castle lay dark, cold and still. It felt like a trap, but one that never came. "It really does seem to be abandoned" she thought. "I must report this right away." Some scouting with Chisato has revealed an incredible stroke of luck, Kii, the second richest province in the game (after Omi), is undefended, with only the basic garrison present. This is an enormous opportunity that I would be incredibly foolish to ignore.   Chisato moved in the darkness towards the granary, a slight sheen of sweat on her forehead despite the coolness of the night. "Where are the guards?" she thought, as she moved to the alley beside the granary, the street dark and silent. Taking a deep breath, she identified a spot most likely to catch away from the eyes of the somewhat less than vigilant defenders. The fire had just caught when she heard movement right behind her. Chisato spun around in terror. Our cheapest and safest option is to have another shot at burning down that granary, as it keeps Chisato's eyes on the enemy army while putting her in a position to react to anything unexpected from the west. It's also a mere 100 koku for a very solid shot at 15 experience. As you can see, with 77% chance of success, going from 1 star in sabotage to 3 stars in sabotage has made a huge difference to Chisato's skills!  Click here to see the mission!  A cat darted across her legs and she fought down the urge to giggle. "Focus!" she thought. "Focus! I need to get out of here before someone really notices this fire." As she moved out into the night, cries of alarm burst forth from the town as flames started licking the sky. She allowed herself a silent grin, she had done what Nakamitsu could not. She had killed a granary! Glorious, glorious success. While this doesn't really help us achieve anything strategically, the extra 15 experience for a mere 100 koku help us move closer to Chisato becoming invaluable to our plans. With any luck, she will survive to see our master plan unfold!   "These reports of Chisato's are most interesting" noted Taketoshi. "If the location of these hidden weapon caches is correct, we could outfit an army!" "That Hatakayama were preparing to take over Japan, it seems" replied the ashigaru captain. "Luckily, the weapon does not care who carries it." "I think we should return the weapons to their rightful owners" grinned Taketoshi. "Point first." With the first successful sabotage of an enemy building, we complete our mission from the very start of the game and gain a nice 25% cost reduction to troops produced for the next 4 turns. For the curious, if you have already bought troops before triggering the event, you can still take advantage of the now reduced price by cancelling the recruitment and repurchasing them. The cancellation restores you the full old price and you pay the new price. It works for buildings as well, so don't be afraid to do it if you manage to wrangle some mid turn bonus! Cancelling the newly cheaper troops just returns you the cheaper price, so no money exploits here.   "DO YOU THINK THIS IS A PICNIC?" bellowed Taketoshi. "If the Hatakeyama catch us coming they will do more than give you sore feet! MARCH!" We now see why Strategist is hilariously broken, as the incredible movement range boost lets generals travel rather impressive distances which would normally require several road upgrades to achieve. With Kii undefended, Taketoshi takes his army and marches upon it, with the intention of further increasing our power. While this leaves Yamato open to invasion, even if it does become a province trade, Kii is significantly more valuable than Yamato and so is one I would be happy to make.  "Archers! Forward!" commanded Taketoshi. "Sweep them with arrows! Yari! To the walls!" "You heard the man!" yelled the ashigaru captain as the Hattori forces surged forward. "Let's show them what real warriors can do!" "We will take this place" bellowed Taketoshi. "Or I will haunt your family for ten thousand years!". Spurring his horse forward, Taketoshi lead from the front. Taketoshi and his force of 2 Hattori Yari Ashigaru and 2 Hattori Bow Ashigaru fall upon the castle defenders consisting of a single unit of Samurai Retainers. The outcome is hardly in doubt, given our vastly superior troops numbers and ranged superiority.  Click here to see the battle! Climbing the walls, shoulder to shoulder with the ashigaru, Taketoshi leap over the parapet, sword at the ready, expecting trouble. This fort map is one of the easier ones to assault, offering little in the way of funnelling or protection with the exception of the lowered semi-moat at archer range that make attacking archers have a significantly more difficult time at maximum range, giving the defenders a fairly powerful ranged force multiplier. As the enemy don't have any ranged weaponry, this is unlikely to help them much.  What he saw gave him pause, as men lay dead littered with Hattori arrows, a few stragglers desperately trying to form a defence, barely a dozen men left. Laughing, Taketoshi plunged in, effortlessly skewering a defender and falling back before any could react. "Give up" demanded Taketoshi. "I'll even let you live!" "Hatakeyama!" cried the defenders, rushing the Hattori forces. The defence, though valiant, was futile as they were felled upon sharp spears. A solid victory! The archers did their jobs admirably and the yari ashigaru finished the fight in style. The losses are of no importance, as they will be replenished long before we can pull those troops out of the garrison anyway.  A great cheer rose from the Hattori forces as the last enemy was felled. "We did well here today!" announced Taketoshi. "For we have brought honour to our clan. A good battle is to win, a great battle is to bring your men home." We can really see how effective archers can be with a reasonable angle and some time to work their magic, even against moderately armoured forces.  Hattori forces burst into the great hall, Taketoshi leading the way. "The Hattori are lords here now" he boomed. "Run, run far away and let all know what happens to those who oppose us!" Another very rich province to increase the Hattori empire! Our expansion is not without cost, however, as our borders become increasingly more stretched and difficult to defend, let alone attack. A concerted effort will be needed to consolidate borders soon, so as to not present more of a border than necessary.   "It is said that the Kii ninja are the greatest smugglers in Japan" noted Taketoshi to the ashigaru captain. "This might not be true, but none can deny the wealth of this place." "On our approach it seems that extensive works have been done on the farmland here, my Lord" replied the captain. "We will not be short of food, at least." "We will be short of very little, if Chisato's reports are correct" grinned Taketoshi. "For all the major ninja clans in Japan now answer to us and us alone." Kii has the Ninja Clan speciality, meaning that the Hattori now control all of the Ninja Clan provinces in Japan, as you would expect from the ninja specialists! Like in Rise of the Samurai, Kii is a wealth powerhouse, with it's very fertile fields producing impressive amounts of koku. For central clans, Kii and Omi will be your key provinces in Realm Divide, as they are some of the few in the game able to produce the amount of koku required to keep a moderate sized empire running. Our economic focus will now be on Kii and Omi for the near future to try to secure our continued wealth. Luckily for us, the AI had recognised it's potential and has already upgraded the farm here to level 2, Improved Irrigation, saving us some koku and time! Kii contains a Fort, Empty Building Slot, Improved Irrigation (Very Fertile Soil), Trails and Mountain Hideout.  Emperor Tomohito smiled as the courtier babbled in a panic. "The upstart Hattori have taken yet more land around Kyoto, my Lord!" the man uttered in hushed tones. "We should soon find ourselves surrounded and at their mercy in a few short years!" "The actions of a minor clan are no concern of ours" replied the emperor. "Nevertheless, such things will concern the Shogun. Heaven, however, has other issues." Expansion is not all good news, however, as taking additional lands has increased our fame, pushing us closer to Realm Divide. As your fame rises, you will get several notices like this one that show you how close you are to triggering Realm Divide. When the yellow bar fills, that's when the big event kicks off. As you can see, we are a touch over a fifth full, which is about on target for the 14-16 provinces you need to trigger Realm Divide. Winter of 1546  "You have a great reputation to live up to!" boomed Taketoshi to the recruits. "Yet I know that you will prove yourselves as able as any man who wears the Hattori colours!" With our need to get both an invasion and defensive force online, we take full advantage of our troop recruitment discount and get 4 units of Hattori Yari Ashigaru, 2 in Iga, 1 in Yamato and 1 in Kii. While our recruitment is very melee heavy at the moment, that's more out of deference to the fact that you really need a certain quantity of melee troops to hold a castle effectively and so if we are going to be defending, we are better being too light on archers than too light on melee troops.  "My Lord, I bring the most grave news!" the messenger announced. "The province of Mino has fallen from the Oda to the Imagawa." Yasunaga moved over to his map. "What do our scouts tell us of their situation?" "They number a half dozen provinces, my Lord" responded the messenger. "They are the most formidable force in Japan that we know of." The Imagawa make contact with us by taking over the province of Mino, to the west of Omi from the old owners, the Oda. The Imagawa are currently terrifying, having 5 provinces to our 4 and now covering our entire eastern front. They own provinces that we need in order to win, so conflict with them is inevitable. It seems the power blocs are ramping up quickly throughout Japan!   "If you are cold then you can march faster!" bellowed Taketoshi. "I've never seen a running man freeze yet! Let's get moving!" Leaving behind a small garrison force to secure Kii, we send Taketoshi back to Yamato as the mustering point for our next attack, as Yamato lets us pick between attacking the tough nut that is Kawachi (currently defended by 7 units!) or trying our luck on the unknown Ise province owned by our trading partners the Kitabatake. While Kawachi would seem the straightforward choice, it's a barren province with no specialities, while Ise is both fertile and has the Holy Site speciality, making it the much more lucrative target.   "Warm beds are not too far away" announced the ashigaru captain. "We just need to get to them!" Our earlier reinforcements from Kii arrive in Yamato to strengthen our presence there and bring our forces up to our pre-Kii invasion size.  The trails were slick with ice and slush, coating the feet of the soldiers. Men cursed. "What sort of half-arsed hack administrator doesn't bother to fix the roads?" complained a soldier. "Maybe the Daimyo can spare some koku to do something useful for once." "If whining could clear roads we would be there by now" the sergeant retorted. "Now that's enough out of you!" The troops we recruited in Iga this turn begin their march towards Yamato, as we continue to gather men for our next offensive push.   Chisato slowly scaled the outer wall, the bitter cold turning her fingers stiff and painful. "How did I think this was a good idea" she thought. "This was a terrible plan." Suddenly her footing gave way on the slick surface, and she swung wildly, managing to get another foothold. Pausing to get her breathing under control, she pushed herself further, slowly but surely making her way to the top of the wall. "I did it!" she thought as she went over the top. "Now to find the gate and spike it. First though, a moment to catch my breath." While we could sit with the relatively safe option of sabotaging the granary every turn for experience, we have a slightly less safe but infinitely more useful option of sabotaging the castle gates of Kawachi. When castle gates are sabotaged by a ninja, the castle is considered damaged and must be repaired (for about 10 koku, but still), but a damaged castle means that troops can not be recruited in the province for the duration of the damage. This means that if we sabotage a castle gates, the province will be unable to produce troops for that turn. In this way, it's possible to prevent the enemy from building reinforcements while you muster your strength. Since that army is already going to be a handful, we go for the gates!  Click here to see the mission!  Chisato had been stopped only a moment when a guard on patrol came around, his lantern illuminating her in the darkness, his voice ringing out in alarm. "Ninja!" Forcing her tired body once more, she took off, running through the unfamiliar complex, multiple guards on her tail. "I can't do this!" she thought. "I can't run anymore, they are gaining!" The guard were fresh, while she was nearly exhausted, they rapidly gained ground. As she approached an intersection, she remembered one last trick in the haze of pain and exhaustion. Grabbing a few flash powder bombs from her satchel, she threw them in at the intersection, remembering to close her eyes as she did so. Even through her closed eyes, she could see the white flash and opened them to see thick smoke already filling the square. Picking a direction at random, she ducked into a nearby building and hid. The guards split up, but they would never find her, semi-blinded in the smoke and confusion. She would escape and fight another day. Sadly for us, 67% just wasn't high enough and Chisato fails her mission, but she lives to fight another day! Considering that failed missions only cost half their value, a mere 50 koku is hardly a huge setback when you consider what we stood to gain.   "You wished to see me, my Lord?" asked Tokinaga, bowing. "I have need of your skills" replied Yasunaga. "Hattori lands stretch much further than in years prior. I need reliable eyes and ears to take care of local matters and ensure corruption and our enemies do not become unmanageable. You will administer this province and deal with such matters." "I understand, my Lord" responded Tokinaga. "I am grateful for the chance to serve." We set our metsuke, Tokinaga, to overseeing the settlement of Omi, making sabotage more difficult and increasing the tax rate by 5% per star. Metsuke are the counter unit to ninja, but are susceptible to monks and missionaries. Metsuke can apprehend enemy agents, removing them from the game for a set period of time or permanently, have the highest ninja detection range of all the agents, can bribe enemy armies and garrisons and oversee towns, making sabotage more difficult and increasing the tax rate by 5% per star. Unfortunately, that last ability is so powerful that metsuke will rarely, if ever, see any of their other uses in an offensive manner. This is exacerbated by their skill tree, which gives ludicrous bonuses to overseeing or lacklustre boosts to the other skills, making the choice incredibly one sided.   To the left is the tax and income breakdown of Omi before the metsuke is overseeing, as you can see we have our base 30% tax rate, 1% from Art of Chi and -7.3% from administrative costs, giving us a total of 24%, yielding 649 koku. After the metsuke is overseeing Omi, we note that "Character Effects" now reads 5%, but our administrative cost has gone up to -8.5%, so we only gained 3.8% tax, which is a boost of 104 koku per turn. As the metsuke only cost 500 koku to build, this is an incredible rate of return which will only improve as the metsuke ranks up and Omi grows. The paperwork was piled high on the desk, various seals and ornate scrolls unopened. "You should really answer those" Muneaki's friend noted. "This is important stuff" "I don't know what to do!" wailed Muneaki. "None of this makes any sense! You were always the brains, what do I do?" "I can fix your problem for you" his friend replied. A glimmer of hope touched Muneaki's face. "How?" "Simple" his friend responded. "You go do whatever you do, I take care of all of this. You give me 3/4 of your salary and everyone is happy." "That's corruption!" burst out Muneaki. "No" was the response. "That's perks." We have Muneaki oversee Iga to improve the tax yield. While this won't give as much koku as in Omi, it's still enough to make it worthwhile. Not to mention, when we have more valuable provinces, Muneaki can be moved taking all the experience he gained here to further boost our empire.  Taketoshi walked back into his office in Yamato, to discover a scroll bearing the Daimyo's personal seal addressed to him. "Orders to flatten the Hatakeyama!" he thought. "Arrived too late, I'm sure." Opening it, however, he discovered something completely different. "Taketoshi, Given your incredible efforts to expand the Hattori clan, there is no doubt you are skilled beyond most men in the art of war. Yet without both the sword and quill, we will falter. You must sharpen your quill and wield it with the power and skill of your sword. You are hereby assigned the Commission for Finance. Ensure the flow of tax and the health of our empire. P.S. This is because you *really* annoyed my wife by giving Masanari the bow." Taketoshi put the scroll down on the table, his face bemused. "Who would have thought that bow would be this much trouble?" he thought. Now that we have enough of a tax base for it to make a difference, we change Taketoshi's commission from the pretty much uniquely terrible Warfare to the far more useful Finance.   Taketoshi's old commission, Warfare, reduced the cost of recruiting troops clanwide by 4% and gave the abilities of the troops under his direct command a reduction of ability cooldown by 4%. Given that we are currently producing primarily ashigaru, the cost reduction was somewhere between 5 and 10 koku per unit and the ability cooldown was totally useless as it only affected his own abilities (as we have not unlocked the Bow Ashigaru unit abilities and Yari Ashigaru's abilities are a toggle), but nowhere near enough to let us use them twice a battle. Instead, with the new commission, Finance, he increases our global tax rate by 2%, adding roughly 100 koku a turn and reducing the upkeep of units under his direct command by 4%, another saving of 26 koku, a much stronger economic performance for no military impact. In fact, it could be argued that extra unit or two we could afford because of this commission makes it stronger for military objectives than Warfare! Commissions in Shogun 2 In Shogun 2 there are 4 commissions that can be assigned to eligible generals. A Daimyo or Heir can not be assigned a commission. All other generals are eligible. Giving a general a commission increases their loyalty by 1, while removing a commission gives a general a -1 loyalty penalty (making a 2 loyalty difference). A general can only be assigned a commission once a turn and your starting general can not have his commission changed on the first turn. You may change commissions giving an existing general a commission that is unassigned without penalty. However, giving a general a commission that another general currently has will strip that general of his commission and cause the penalty, so you will need to juggle with swapping out to an unassigned commission if you wish to swap between two existing generals without penalty. If all four commissions are assigned, you can not swap without penalty. Each benefit of the commissions are multiplied by the number of general stars on the appropriate general. A rank 1 general gets the below benefits, while a rank 4 general would get 4 times the benefits.   The Commission for Development reduces the cost of buildings you construct and the resistance to invaders from provinces captured by this general. This commission is moderately useful, but tends to be useful towards the later game. Early game, buildings are fairly inexpensive and so the savings are limited and your expansion speed tends to be dictated by the army you can afford rather than the happiness of your provinces. Late game, however, a high ranked general with development is capable of flying through provinces like a hot knife through butter, leaving almost no unhappiness from invasion.   The best all round commission, Finance is always useful given that koku is the universal solution to problems in Shogun 2. The clanwide boost to tax is rather substantial and scales perfectly with your realm size, unlike other commissions, making it the perfect early commission. The upkeep reduction tends to be modest for early game armies, but can be quite impressive with endgame stacks of samurai and monks, paired with a moderately ranked general. Unlike the other commissions, the benefits accumulate (koku just keeps building up in your bank, after all) while the other commissions only work while you are performing their action (making buildings or troops, replenishing armies).   Another early game powerhouse commission, the Commissioner for Supply increases the replenishment rate of all your troops empire wide and increases the movement range of troops under his personal command. Given that early game replenishment is a paltry 4%, having a mere rank 2 Commissioner for Supply increases this by 50%! The additional movement stacks with other movement buffs, making your Commissioner for Supply amazing for either covering multiple fronts or for launching blazing attacks against enemy weak spots.   The weakest of all the commissions, Warfare under-performs in everything it sets out to do. Given that the cost of a unit is eclipsed by a mere 3 turns of upkeep, a trivial reduction to troop purchase price represents a negligible benefit to troop recruitment and army size. Even worse is the reduction to unit cooldowns, as even with the cooldown reduction at a full 12% from a rank 6 general, battles will rarely last long enough to take benefit of using abilities twice unless you purposely use everyone's abilities right at the start, but that tends to be far less effective than waiting for the right time in the battle, so you don't really gain anything there.  "So we are allies with the Ikko Ikki and the Shogun?" inquired Masanari. "I thought we needed to smash the Shogun!" "Right now we have few friends" replied Yasunaga. "We can't afford to be choosy." "So does no-one else like us, dad?" Masanari questioned. "Are they scared of ninjas?" "They worry about our growing power" responded Yasunaga. "While no-one hates us, they are worried that we will become unstoppable given what we have achieved so far." With the exception of the Ikko Ikki and the Ashikaga Shogunate, our name is spoken with contempt throughout Japan. While no-one outright hates us, they fear our success and our obvious lust for expansion. Of course, no-one really liked us in the first place, so this is really just the status-quo. No matter, the Hattori have always stood alone!  "With our friends to the north and the huge Imagawa to the east, do we have to expand west, dad?" queried Masanari. "Because that's where the Shogun is!" "We need the Imagawa lands" his father replied. "But we are not prepared for such a war. Right now we must protect our people and trust in Taketoshi." "Can I go help him, dad?" Masanari asked, his eyes full of excitement. "I could protect the fort!" Yasunaga ruffled the boys hair. "No, you are needed here to protect your mother and baby brother. There is no higher duty than to protect family." Masanari nodded. "I'll keep them safe, dad." "I know you will." Here is a clan map of Japan as it stands at the moment. The orange block to our north is the Ikko Ikki, our current allies and friends. While I'm expecting to be betrayed by them at some point, so far they seem to be keeping their end of the deal up remarkably well. The cluster of green provinces is the Hatakeyama, who we are currently at war with. When their province next to us falls, I'll sue for peace which they should accept, as it will be a paper war at that point. To our south-east, our other trading partners, the Kitabatake,are trapped between us (the big central block of black) and the Imagawa (the ludicrously big block of purple to the east). The aqua clan to the north-west currently hold Settsu, a key province that I need to capture to restore Taira glory, but we have more immediate concerns.   Wealth flowed into the Hattori coffers, wealth the likes the clan had never seen before, gold and silver, rice and gemstones. Yet with such wealth came vultures, those who eyed jealously the lands and power that the rising star of the Hattori had gained. What a difference four turns can make! Compared to our last finance report, we make a full 1399 koku a turn more in profit. In addition, this is with our military spending jumping 837 koku, more than doubling from what it previously was! With wise investment and nurturing, this early cash flow can be turned into a powerful force. It will be needed, as with so many fronts open we will need every person we can put our hands on. If we can have a strong non-trade based economy early on, we will be all the better placed to handle Realm Divide! Sneak Peak: Hard Choices... shalcar fucked around with this message at 14:03 on Aug 12, 2013 |
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Aug 12, 2013 12:47
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Yay! Update! Thanks for doing this, Shalcar. Following your Rise LP has really improved my game, especially in the economic front. I used to drop buildings on a whim rather than thinking about long term consequences, and your explanations with clear numbers really underscore the importance of thinking ahead. shalcar posted:Two major clans to the east West. You get it right later on the same paragraph.
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Aug 12, 2013 13:11
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quote:Each benefit of the commissions are multiplied by the number of general stars on the appropriate general. A rank 1 general gets the below benefits, while a rank 4 general would get 4 times the benefits. Holy poo poo, I did not know that. This changes everything. I've always kept my commissioner for finance at home away from the fighting (he's a bureaucrat, right?!?) while my commissioner for warfare did all the fighting. (it's his job description!) Fangz fucked around with this message at 13:35 on Aug 12, 2013 |
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Aug 12, 2013 13:31
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Both the Iga and Omi metsuke assignment fluff pieces mention Tokinaga, shouldn't the second one be Muneaki?
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Aug 12, 2013 13:55
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Just Winging It posted:Both the Iga and Omi metsuke assignment fluff pieces mention Tokinaga, shouldn't the second one be Muneaki? Fat Samurai posted:West. You get it right later on the same paragraph. Thanks you two for pointing those errors out to me. It all sort of turns my brain to mush after looking at it a while. Just a reminder that I still need the steam account details of K Prime and Peddler of Smiles so that I can give you your prizes!
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Aug 12, 2013 14:07
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I think I asked in the Rise thread, but in Fall when your generals get enough stars they start giving extra bonuses that are not listed on the commission for a one star general. What about Vanila? I don't think I have seen that happen, but I haven't played much in a long time, and back then I usally stuck with my Daimyo and heir. Also, what about rise?
LokAmir fucked around with this message at 14:56 on Aug 12, 2013 |
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Aug 12, 2013 14:49
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Economic strife A storm drowning the newbie Please teach me, shalcar  Much like the last LP I'm really enjoying the combination of information and narrative.
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Aug 12, 2013 15:23
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LokAmir posted:I think I asked in the Rise thread, but in Fall when your generals get enough stars they start giving extra bonuses that are not listed on the commission for a one star general. What about Vanila? Also, what about rise? In both Rise and Vanilla they don't gain extra commission abilities as they rank up, unlike in Fall. Of course, in Fall the commissions only start giving off one bonus instead of the two we have here.
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Aug 13, 2013 01:12
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You have to admit, that one guy who survived the arrow massacre and took on your entire unit single-handedly had balls of steel.
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Aug 13, 2013 01:26
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Sindai posted:You have to admit, that one guy who survived the arrow massacre and took on your entire unit single-handedly had balls of steel. He fought nobly, he fought valiantly and he died. Such is the fate of those who oppose the Hattori! 
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Aug 13, 2013 08:13
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shalcar posted:As she moved out into the night, cries of alarm burst forth from the town as flames started licking the sky. She allowed herself a silent grin, she had done what Nakamitsu could not. She had killed a granary! That line alone made this entire update entirely worth it. So true, yet so funny.
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Aug 13, 2013 09:30
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I don't think I've ever had a game where the Shimazu or the Otomo survive to midgame. The Ito clan almost always dominates, with the Shoni occasionally coming out on top. Honestly the major clans almost always seem to get wiped out. I started a Date clan playthrough to go along with your lp and with realm divide around the corner only the Chosakabe and the Hattori are left. The Kitabatake are the largest single clan.
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Aug 13, 2013 16:18
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For me normally the Shimazu or the Shoni come up on top. If its the Shimazu they become a real threat ultimately and charge through japan. If its Shoni they seem to rarely get a good foothold on the main land. Beyond that......Uesugi, Takeda, and nobunaga tend to have decent survival rates for me. And the Hattori almost always unify the center unless the Ikko kill them off in the very beginning. *As such he really dislikes the Hattori(when not played) since their ninjas by late game can be.........devastating*
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Aug 13, 2013 17:03
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I started a game as the Shimazu for the first time, and I have to say, I hate the Otomo because their peasants always hate me thanks to religious differences. Are there any tricks to converting a province to Buddhism quickly, or at least keeping them happy?Dr. Snark posted:That line alone made this entire update entirely worth it. So true, yet so funny. It's like a long-running curse has been lifted. I love the idea that the Hattori ninja clan was founded by the ultimate legendary assassin, who could not for the life of him manage to start a fire.
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Aug 14, 2013 02:06
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In my experience, the Hatakeyama leave their central Japan provinces completely underguarded. Kind of stupid, but hey you got Kii so who's complaining?  Third Murderer posted:I started a game as the Shimazu for the first time, and I have to say, I hate the Otomo because their peasants always hate me thanks to religious differences. Are there any tricks to converting a province to Buddhism quickly, or at least keeping them happy? Get at least Essence of Spirit (even deeper if you can swing it), throw up the highest temple you can and plop a monk or two down. Conversion rates are painfully slow in Vanilla, but all of this will jack up the conversion rate fairly well. Alternatively, go Christian yourself and get Naban ships and the hilariously broken Chi research rate buffs of churches. Crush everything as the Shimazu in the name of God.
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Aug 14, 2013 02:28
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So my computer has just recovered from a startling case of the completely dead. I hope I didn't miss out on too much! Edit: Finally going to use this stupid noob tag to my advantage, what's your e-mail, Shalcar? I don't have PMs and I can't seem to bring up your info for some reason.
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Aug 14, 2013 03:04
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If you want the Otomo's sweet provinces with out having to deal with revolts well. Religious tension only goes up 1 point a turn, just build units until it balances out
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Aug 14, 2013 03:46
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Peddler of Smiles posted:Edit: Finally going to use this stupid noob tag to my advantage, what's your e-mail, Shalcar? My email is my user name at rpgclassics.com I look forward to your email!
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Aug 14, 2013 03:55
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AtomikKrab posted:If you want the Otomo's sweet provinces with out having to deal with revolts well. So essentially, you're suppressing the religion with your military? Huh. I like when a game's mechanics end up encouraging you to recreate history, not because the game is railroading you into it, but because that's simply the best strategic option available to you.
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Aug 14, 2013 04:27
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cruelangeleo7 posted:Economic strife Be careful what you wish for! Shogun 2 Economic Analysis Part 1 The economy in Shogun 2 can be very tricky and quite obtuse to figure out. Buildings have several ways of generating income and it's difficult to get it all in context short of "bigger is better" and this causes a lot of newer players trouble when it comes to Realm Divide and the trade that had been propping up their economy falls over. This post is going to cover the theory behind comparing economy buildings and the various rates of return in a simple and straightfoward, yet thorough manner. This first post will look at how you really work out the economic changes in the game, setting the baseline for all the information that will follow and how it was derived. The second post will look at farms and their upgrades, with the associated economic impact. The third post in this series will cover other non-farm economic buildings and the final post in this economic series will bring all this information together to give you useful, real world applicable information in how to develop your provinces to get the most out of them. Basically, I will do the maths so you don't have to! At the heart of the matter, each building provides two possible economic benefits, base wealth and town growth. Base wealth is added directly to the value of the province and remains unchanging. We will refer to this as BW. Town growth is added to the province wealth each turn, slowly growing the province wealth. We will refer to this as TG. In order to work out how much koku we get from such a building in any given turn, we need to multiply by the tax rate. We will refer to this as TAX. In addition, depending on how many turns the building has been built, it will have added various amounts of wealth based on it's town growth. We will refer to the number of turns passed as TURNS. Koku = ((TG x TURNS) + BW) x TAX So a Market, which provides 5 town growth a turn and 200 base wealth that we built 4 turns ago with Normal taxes (30%) would give us: Koku = ((5 x 4) + 200) x 0.3 = 66 koku on the 4th turn. So far, it's all fairly simple. Unfortunately, the real situation is significantly more complicated. Each tax rate has a varying growth penalty, with lower taxes having a lesser penalty and higher ones a greater penalty. The numbers don't work out for running anything other than NORMAL taxes for anything other than emergencies, so we have a growth penalty of 30%, meaning our growth rate is only 70% of the base. We will refer to this as TAXPEN. Now, Koku = ((TG x TURNS x TAXPEN) + BW) x TAX Using our earlier example and our TAXPEN of 70%: Koku = ((5 x 4 x 0.7) + 200) x 0.3 = 64.2 koku on the 4th turn Now this isn't all that useful to us, because we don't live on a turn by turn basis, instead we are interested in how much money we make over a given period of time (ie. Will this Market make me more money than this Sake Den?). To do that, we need to find the integral of our above formula with respect to TURNS. This gives us: Koku = ((TG X TURNS^2 x TAXPEN) / 2 + (BW x TURNS)) x TAX - C It may be easier to simplify it to: Koku = ((TG X TURNS^2 x TAXPEN x TAX ) / 2 + (BW x TURNS x TAX)) - C Where C in our case gives us context for our break even point, in this case it is the COST of the building in koku and will from here on out be called COST. Lets put our 4 turn Market which cost us 800 koku in and see what we get: Koku = ((5 x 4^2 x 0.7) / 2 + (200 x 4)) x 0.3 - 800 = 8.4 + 240 - 800 = -551.6 koku So 4 turns after we have built our Market, we are 551.6 koku worse off than we would have been if we didn't build it (Alternatively, you could say that you have made 268 koku from the Market 4 turns in). Of course, this only tells us absolute values of koku made, which means we can't compare two different buildings to see which one is the better to build, as the more expensive buildings give bigger absolute bonuses, but they may not be the best to build! In order to correct for this, we use the Time To Break Even cost as our basepoint of 0 and everything is relative to that. This means that when you have broken even, you will have a normalised return of 0%, that is, you have exactly as much money as you started with. This gives us the following formula: Normalised Returns = (((TG X TURNS^2 x TAXPEN) / 2 + (BW x TURNS)) x TAX - COST) / COST Using our friend the 4 turn Market again we can see that we get: Normalised Returns = (((5 x 4^2 x 0.7) / 2 + (200 x 4)) x 0.3 - 800) / 800 = (8.4 + 240 - 800) / 800 = -68.9% In other words, 4 turns after we have built our Market, we have a remaining 68.9% of our initial investment to recoup. Lets crank our friendly Market up to 20 turns and see how he goes: Normalised Returns = (((5 x 20^2 x 0.7) / 2 + (200 x 20)) x 0.3 - 800) / 800 = (210 + 1200 - 800) / 800 = 76.25% In 20 turns we have made an additional 76.25% of our initial investment. You can just multiply this by the cost of the building to work out your absolute koku gained, in this case we have made 610 koku PROFIT. Now might be a good time to take a break and make sure you understand exactly how we got here, because it's about to step up a level in complication again, but we will build on this base rather than making changes to it, so for buildings which only affect their own province, the above formula is king (Kind of. But we need to have both feet firmly on the ground before we can build castles in the sky). There are a class of buildings that affect the growth of other provinces, the food buildings (and any building that you specifically upgrade a fortification for, but we will get to that), the farms. Each point of food you have in excess adds an additional 1 growth to every province you own. To factor this in, we need to modify our growth formula to include any additional wealth generated outside the province. By itself, the amount of koku a food building would net you on any given turn would look like: Koku = Empire Size x Food x TURNS x TAX x TAXPEN All Food buildings produce a single additional food, so that simplifies away to: Koku = Empire Size x TURNS x TAX x TAXPEN So if we had built an Improved Irrigation (only factoring in the food) 6 turns ago in our 10 province empire, on the 4th turn it would have made us: Koku = 10 x 6 x 0.3 x 0.7 = 12.6 koku earned that turn. Once again, that's not as useful as the total amount we earn over a given period, so we integrate with respect to TURNS as before to get: Koku = (Empire Size x TURNS^2 x TAX x TAXPEN) / 2 So our earlier example of Improved Irrigation (only factoring in the food) would net us: Koku = (10 x 6^2 x 0.3 x 0.7) / 2 = 37.8 koku So far so good, right? But the issue is that empire size changes as the game goes on. Food with 1 province is a totally different proposition to food with 10 provinces which is different to 20 provinces and these can all happen inside the same time period we are working out our returns on! To counter that, we need our Empire Size to adjust with respect to time to represent our ever growing empire (ideally). To do that, we need to work out how often we will be gaining provinces. A blazing fast run of the game is finishing in 60 of the allotted 120 turns, a slow game is one where you sneak over the line using your full 120 turns and we will call an average game one that finishes in 90 turns. From this we can derive our time to provinces. You need to own 25 provinces to win Shogun 2 and as you start with 1, this means you need to take 24. This gives us the following amount of time per province (TPP) taken: Slow: 5 turns per province Medium: 3.75 turns per province Fast: 2.5 turns per province This gives us our Empire Size on any given turn as (1 + TURNS / TPP). To make it accurate for starting after the first turn in the game, we need to have an offset to indicate time has passed before this building started providing it's benefit. This is called OFFSET. Now we need to put this back into our original koku formula for a given turn, which gives us: Koku = (1 + (TURNS + OFFSET) / TPP) x TURNS x TAX x TAXPEN This expands out to: Koku = TURNS x TAX x TAXPEN + ((TURNS^2 + (OFFSET x TURNS)) x TAX x TAXPEN) / TPP So on the 6th turn on a FAST TPP, we get: Koku = 6 x 0.3 x 0.7 + ((6^2 + (0 x 6)) x 0.3 x 0.7) / 2.5 = 1.26 + 3.024 = 4.3 koku earned on the 6th turn (Assuming we had our food on the first turn of the game) On the other hand, if we got that same 6 turns but we did it 20 turns into the game (so we had 9 provinces on FAST), we get: Koku = 6 x 0.3 x 0.7 + ((6^2 + (20 x 6)) x 0.3 x 0.7) / 2.5 = 1.26 + 16.38 = 17.7 koku earned on the 6th turn (Assuming the food came online on the 20th turn @ FAST TPP) Once again, it's far more useful to find out how much we would earn over a given period, instead of during a single turn, so once again we integrate to get: Koku = (TURNS^2 x TAX x TAXPEN) / 2 + (((TURNS^3 / 3) + (TURNS^2 x OFFSET) / 2)) x TAX x TAXPEN) / TPP Which is starting to get pretty complicated to follow, but nothing that we can't handle. So using our 6 provinces starting on the first game turn (0 OFFSET) at FAST TPP we get: Koku = (6^2 x 0.3 x 0.7) / 2 + (((6^3 / 3) + (6^2 x 0) / 2)) x 0.3 x 0.7) / 2.5 = 3.78 + 6.048 = 9.9 koku made over 6 turns (Assuming we had our food on the first turn of the game) Using our second example of starting at 20 turns, we get: Koku = (6^2 x 0.3 x 0.7) / 2 + (((6^3 / 3) + (6^2 x 20) / 2)) x 0.3 x 0.7) / 2.5 = 3.78 + 36.288 = 40.1 koku made over 6 turns (Assuming the food came online on the 20th turn @ FAST TPP) So now we know exactly how to handle both local province wealth/growth and the effect of food individually, but there is one final piece of the puzzle missing... TAX! The tax rate of your empire at large is significantly lower than those of your money making provinces that are stuffed with high level metsuke. To correct for this, we must modify tax into two separate sections, local tax (LTAX) and empire tax (ETAX). Luckily for us, all TAX values in the food formula are ETAX, while all TAX values in the province formula earlier are LTAX. Now we can combine the two formula together to get the full wealth impact of any given building in the game for any situation! It looks like follows: Normalised Returns = (((TURNS^2 x ETAX x TAXPEN) / 2 + (((TURNS^3 / 3) + (TURNS^2 x OFFSET) / 2)) x ETAX x TAXPEN) / TPP) + (((TG X TURNS^2 x TAXPEN) / 2 + (BW x TURNS)) x LTAX - COST)) / COST Next time: Farms and the returns on food related buildings. In English. With graphs. For sane people. It won't look like this post, I promise. shalcar fucked around with this message at 12:32 on Oct 30, 2013 |
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Aug 15, 2013 14:33
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He is the very model of a Shogun Gamer-General, Has information vegetable, animal, and mineral, He knows Tennos of Nippon, and he quotes the fights historical From Shigisan to Tsushima, in order categorical; He's very well acquainted, too, with matters mathematical, He understands equations, both the simple and quadratical, About that strange growth theorem he's teeming with a lot o' news, With many cheerful facts about the "breaking even" koku dues. He's very good at integral and differential calculus; He knows the Shintoistic names of beings metsucalculous: In short, in matters vegetable, animal, and mineral, He is the very model of a Shogun Gamer-General.
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Aug 15, 2013 15:04
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my dad posted:The Ninjas of Nanto Sung to this tune: (Chorus 1) WITH NEKO'D TREAD, UPON GRAIN STORES WE STEAL! IN SILENCE DREAD, OUR CAUTIOUS WAY WE FEEL! NO SOUND AT ALL- WE CANNOT SPEAK A WORD! A BLOSSOM'S FALL WILL BE DISTIIIINCTLY HEARD! Samurai in the trees: TA-TWING, TA-TWIIING, TA-TWING, TA-TWIIIING SO SILENTLY THE NINJA CREEPS WHILE ALL THE PALACE SOUNDLY SLEEPS! (Chorus 2) COME FRIENDS OF THEATRE NOH! TRUCE TO INFILTRATION, WE'RE ON ANOTHER GRAIN RUN! HUSH NOW, IT'S TIME TO GO, SING SCALES SABOTAGE-EOH! (spoken)SHH, QUIET! HEEERE'S YOUR KAMA, AND YOUR SHURIKEN! YOUR FAA-AAA-ARMER'S GAA-AARB, PUT THEM ON NOW MEN! YOUR POISONED HAIRPINS, AND CLOTH-LINED SHOES SEIZE! NO NINJA STYLE, JUST SERVANTS' OUTFITS, PLEASE! WITH NEKO'S TREAD, Samurai in the trees: TA-TWING, TA-TWIIING IN SILENCE DREAD! Samurai in the trees: TA-TWING, TA-TWIIING (Repeat Chorus 1) (Repeat Chorus 2) WITH NEKO'D TREAD, UPON GRAIN STORES WE STEEEAL! IN SILENCE DREAD, OUR CAUTIOUS WAAAAY WE FEEEEEEEL! [Begin kickline) COME FRIENDS OF THEATRE NOH! TRUCE TO INFILTRATION, WE'RE ON ANOTHER GRAIN RUN! HUSH NOW, IT'S TIME TO GO, SING SCALES SABOTAAAGE-EEEEOH! WITH NEKO'D TREAD, UPON GRAIN STORES WE STEEEAL! IN SILENCE DREAD, OUR CAUTIOUS WAAAAY WE FEEEEEEEL! This isn't too long, is it? Now that I actually see it posted, it's kind of embarrassing how much effort I put into it 
CommissarMega fucked around with this message at 17:13 on Aug 15, 2013 |
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Aug 15, 2013 17:08
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you didn't include arts and buildings that increase tax rates
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Aug 15, 2013 17:12
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AtomikKrab posted:you didn't include arts and buildings that increase tax rates No, I'm saving those for 'The Minister (Or The Town of Titty-poo)', a play that satirizes Japanese bureaucracy, but thinly disguised by a British setting
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Aug 15, 2013 17:16
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AtomikKrab posted:you didn't include arts and buildings that increase tax rates Firstly, none of those are spoilers and secondly, they are factored in, just not in the way you seem to think they should be. The two buildings which increase tax rate are the Infamous Mizu Shobai District and Famous Temple, both of which give a local tax bonus of 25%. You don't need a comparison chart for any provinces with any of those in them (You can only build one of each type and you wouldn't see both in one game, if ever), because any building that makes koku in those provinces is the best to build without exception unless you put them in a super terrible province for some reason and even then, it's probably still a fantastic idea. As such, you don't need to overcomplicate the general case formula with a scenario that is not needed. Tax rates can exceed 100% and with metsuke in provinces with those buildings, often do. The arts/characters that increase tax rate *are* factored in through the use of Empire/Local tax through working out the average tax rate for a game factoring in all the boosts and decreases for tax throughout the game. Since tax rates would be diminishing as the empire grows due to administrative cost, your tax rates should tend down with time. You can put this into the formula if you want, but I assure you it overly adds complication without affecting the comparison between buildings in the slightest. Given the best case scenario of a player going for Tax Reform immediately after Equal Fields, you can discern the total cumulative tax rate and average it out over the chart to give you a single value for the empire tax. While this does under value super early buildings slightly and overvalue late buildings, the reality is that you are constrained from making many super early choices about buildings and very late game nothing has time to pay itself back in any meaningful sense regardless, so it's acceptable losses for our modelling. So they are in there, you just can't see them directly. e: Just a tip for dealing with people in general. You will get a much better response if you phrase your question as a question, rather than as a statement that can be interpreted as aggressive. Especially when that statement lacks any form of capitalisation or punctuation. CommissarMega and my dad, never stop posting, those were hilarious and amazing. I absolutely adore it when my thread turns into a poetry jam. shalcar fucked around with this message at 00:33 on Aug 16, 2013 |
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Aug 16, 2013 00:24
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shalcar posted:Tax rates can exceed 100% and with metsuke in provinces with those buildings, often do. Is it best to keep your metsukes in cities doing their thing there, instead of out in the field? And what are qualities of a good city to put them in for max effect?
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Aug 16, 2013 00:47
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Arrows rain from sky My comrades fall to their shafts Alone I will fight --death-poem of a Samurai of Kii, identity unknown
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Aug 16, 2013 01:23
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I have a question for the thread, since it doesn't make any sense to include things that are literally impossible to build before x time has passed, do you want me to"bake in"the minimum times to the graphs? The only issue is that it will obscure the build time on the early graphs, although I think I have a way around that.
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Aug 16, 2013 02:58
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Flock of birds up high Turned to arrows in the sky Took one in the eye
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Aug 16, 2013 05:27
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It sounds like a good idea, but I'm not sure how obscuring the baked in times would be. Maybe an example is in order?
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Aug 16, 2013 05:45
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shalcar posted:Tax rates can exceed 100% and with metsuke in provinces with those buildings, often do. If that wasn't so broken (and likely to bar you from showing other far more interesting things) I'd want you to do that just so I could see you come up with in-story text about a province being taxed at over 100%. I imagine the spirits of Mitsukazu and Shigehira are involved. e: That or it's the Tomomori approach to taxation "I don't care if that's literally all they have, take their arms too, they're Taira by right!  "
Linear Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 05:57 on Aug 16, 2013 |
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Aug 16, 2013 05:51
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shalcar posted:Math Let's play Shogun 2: Using integrers so you don't have to. Before reading the previous LP I thought Shogun was a game about pixel mans stabbing other pixel mans. How wrong I was... EDIT: Jsor posted:If that wasn't so broken (and likely to bar you from showing other far more interesting things) I'd want you to do that just so I could see you come up with in-story text about a province being taxed at over 100%. I imagine the spirits of Mitsukazu and Shigehira are involved. Basically everything I know about Japan comes from James Clavell's Shogun, Kurosawa's movies and such, so take it with a grain of salt: The tax collectors would estimate how much a village was capable of producing, and tax a poercentage of it, while the peasants would hide as much wealth as possible, so that they could be considered poor. Bribery, lies, hidden granaries, etc... Everyone knew that this happened, and it more or less allowed. In times of need, the daimyo would ask for several years of taxes in advance, or tax over 100% of the rice produced, and the peasants would miraculously manage to do it. Fat Samurai fucked around with this message at 07:49 on Aug 16, 2013 |
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Aug 16, 2013 07:34
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Fat Samurai posted:Basically everything I know about Japan comes from James Clavell's Shogun, Kurosawa's movies and such, so take it with a grain of salt: The tax collectors would estimate how much a village was capable of producing, and tax a poercentage of it, while the peasants would hide as much wealth as possible, so that they could be considered poor. Bribery, lies, hidden granaries, etc... Everyone knew that this happened, and it more or less allowed. I may have exaggerated slightly. Obviously it's possible to semi-easily explain it with corruption, taxing non-standard items, and similar things. Edit: And on a totally different note, I've only completed one Shogun 2 campaign way back when: Chosokabe on Easy, which is a testament to how easy that combo is because I won despite taking Kyoto and triggering Realm Divide early and generally being completely terrible at the game. The (old? I haven't seen it happen recently) AI bug where the AI would just stand there and eat arrows and run out the timer instead of actually trying to scale your castle walls didn't hurt either (I recall that happening in other Total War games too). Every time since then I've tried to play Ikko-Ikki on normal and end up failing miserably. I've almost decided that building anything aside from loan swords is more or less futile. Maybe that's going a little far, but the bow ashigaru have like 10 reload, I'm lucky to get two volleys before melee starts. I also seem to have slighted Stochastia, The Random Number Goddess. I know a good player can deal with pretty much any cheeky move the AI pulls, but as a less than good player I've been having issues with the Imagawa, Oda, or Takeda getting early dominance and then doomstacking me because of their ridiculous production capacity and my comparative weakness. I'm still trying to get the balance with the Ikki -- if I expand too fast I end up overextending and dealing with the low happiness, but too slowly and I get trampled on by a full stack of samurai when I've barely gotten four provinces. Part of the problem is how huge the provinces they have are. Even with level 2 or 3 roads it can take 2-3 turns to get between almost any of your provinces making reinforcing any given front risky, ninja sabotage helps, but you can only afford so many of those a turn. If I could reinforce a bit faster, I could probably hold off the samurai armies, but I'm left with this awkward situation of having to have a small but reasonable garrison in all towns rather than a larger mobile defense force. Linear Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 14:54 on Aug 16, 2013 |
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Aug 16, 2013 07:56
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dupersaurus posted:Is it best to keep your metsukes in cities doing their thing there, instead of out in the field? And what are qualities of a good city to put them in for max effect? Well, just for fun (since I wasn't planning on covering Metsuke and Market returns until after I have done my post on farms) I decided to make the return on investment graph for metsuke for a province worth 2000 koku, which is basically the wealth floor for a very fertile province. The most useful scale for buildings is the 300% RoI as that really tells you the important stuff. Except for Metsuke, who are so ludicrous that you really need to use two graphs to illustrate how much money they make if you skill them up in province management. The first graph is to the common scale that I use in all the RoI graphs based on the earlier posts formula, from your initial expense to the time you have made 300% profit.  As you can see, on the 8th turn you have made your money back, so it's only on par with other investments, but on the 11th turn you have doubled your money and the 14th you have tripled it. Trust me when I say there is nothing in the game with returns quite like it. This next graph is your return on investment for a 60 turn game. Remember that Metsuke are linear, so if you go to 120 turns (the full standard campaign), you can expect to earn more than double that.  For the curious, this is a 22,000 koku return for a 500 koku investment over 60 turns. Always put metsuke in your richest towns. Always. Get 5. Jsor posted:Every time since then I've tried to play Ikko-Ikki on normal and end up failing miserably. I've almost decided that building anything aside from loan swords is more or less futile. Maybe that's going a little far, but the bow ashigaru have like 10 reload, I'm lucky to get two volleys before melee starts. The fact the Ikko lack Metsuke makes them much trickier. Loan Swords are amazing and so you should certainly be going for them over yari. The real issue with the Ikko is that you need to take Omi and Kii as quickly as possible, despite their being easier, softer targets nearby. In fact, the Ikko gameplan looks a lot like the Hattori one, except you need to be snagging trade nodes from the get-go, even if you don't sell them to anyone they make good money, which you will need. Ikko Ikki are hard and really not recommended if all you have done is Chosokabe on easy. Instead, try Hojo on Normal. They are a step up from the easier clans, but their position is good for expansion while still being moderately defensible, they are near to several key speciality provinces (warhorse, philosophical traditions), they start with a blacksmith and have access to a gold province speciality. You can go monk heavy with them as well, since they can afford it. Fat Samurai posted:Let's play Shogun 2: Using integrers so you don't have to. Shogun 2 is a game of pixel men (and women) stabbing other pixel men (and women). Unfortunately I got some complaints the last time I did an economic analysis that I wasn't being thorough enough and that I had "an obvious bias against town growth". Normally I wouldn't bother modelling to this level of complication, but since this is an LP, you deserve the absolute highest quality I can produce so you can rest easy knowing that due diligence was done. Also, I had to dib through the official forums and TWC to see if anyone had done anything similar and the atrocities to mathematics that I saw...
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Aug 17, 2013 03:50
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shalcar posted:Shogun 2 is a game of pixel men (and women) stabbing other pixel men (and women). Unfortunately I got some complaints the last time I did an economic analysis that I wasn't being thorough enough and that I had "an obvious bias against town growth". Normally I wouldn't bother modelling to this level of complication, but since this is an LP, you deserve the absolute highest quality I can produce so you can rest easy knowing that due diligence was done. Also, I had to dib through the official forums and TWC to see if anyone had done anything similar and the atrocities to mathematics that I saw...
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Aug 17, 2013 09:18
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