Namtab posted:

Going back to half of my theory as to why madoka maintains the system (to prevent a paradox), this may also explain why madoka kept homura as a magical girl. Homuras powers were directly responsible for madoka becoming as powerful as she gets. Even under a more ideal solution wherein the bare minimum of magical girls as necessary exist homura needed to have her powers to ensure that madoka gets hers.

Namtab posted:

When homura goes back in time, is it similar to the time travel in dbz, or is she moving to a previous point in time within the same universe?

Namtab posted:

What do you think of kyouko x madoka as a couple.

Lord Justice posted:

It's the Steins;Gate method of shifting World-Lines given Urobuchi's comments on the matter.

From the wiki:

"According to an interview in Otona Anime Vol. 20, translated by symbv, here is what Gen Urobuchi said on more of Homura's power: "The weapon that looks like Homura's shield is actually a sand timer. When the flow of the sand is blocked, time is stopped. And when there is no sand on the upper part of the sand timer and then the timer is reverted, one month's worth of time is turned back. But before that stage is reached, only time stopping is possible. This means the special power of Homura is the ability to manipulate one month's time's worth of sand in the sand timer. As for the time passed and then turned back, since it was not the focus in this work I did not think it through very thoroughly. I think you can say that the world split up and became parallel worlds there.""

I.E, Homura going back in time alters the "Divergence Factor" (this being the number assigned to a World-Line, such as 0.571024α) of the World-Line enough to shift it over into a new one which has different actions and consequences from the one she left. This explains why Kyousuke played the guitar instead of the violin in Loop 3, and why Oktavia's familiars were dancing Hitomis.


They're secret friends.

AlternateNu posted:

Kyousuke's playing of a guitar vs. a violin wouldn't change if Homura can only affect the events within her one month's worth of time. The Steins;Gate analogy can probably work, but that's the worst possible example because Homura is not performing any actions (i.e.; sending message back in time) that would effect the worldline up to her start point in each loop. Sure, each loop is a different branch, but they all originate at the same point in time with her waking up in the hospital.

The only time something akin to D-mails occurs is with Madoka's wish because it forced the universe to rewrite itself based on a new set of rules.

Lord Justice posted:

There's two methods of time travel in Steins;Gate, and Homura is using the latter version in pretty much the exact same way. When Okabe Time Leaps, he's also shifting World-Lines, we just don't get the effect because it's a present action from his perspective, instead of a past action like the D-Mails. You're correct that Kyousuke playing the guitar doesn't make sense; which is why I prefer the Steins;Gate theory because you can end up in World-Lines which have radically different inputs even aside from your own intervention, such as with the Omega Attractor Field and Faris' ending specifically.

Namtab posted:

When homura goes back in time, is it similar to the time travel in dbz, or is she moving to a previous point in time within the same universe?

AlternateNu posted:

Okabe doesn't shift world lines when he time leaps in the sense that nothing prior to his consciousness being overwritten has changed. Of course, divergence changes in the range of 1x10^-7 or so after that fact based purely on his new actions from that point, but time leaping never changed anything prior to the point he leaped to.

Faris' ending occurs because they send another D-mail and there is nothing to say that D-mail necessarily changed anything about Okabe's and Faris' past (e.g., Okabe's childhood w/ Mayuri) on its own. The omega attractor field could easily have been the result of further fuckery by SERN after discovering this new D-mail and altering events to prevent the lab from forming while maintaining D-mail tech knowledge (or some other wack-rear end coincidence). I'm pretty sure the so-called omega field ending wasn't thought out that much when the game was being written, anyway.

In either case, you can't use it as a model of Homura changing events prior to her one month loop because she observes all of her own actions. The reason D-mail changes seem so random is because the current Okabe doesn't observe the changes, he only observes the effects of those changes. They're not comparable situations.

a cartoon duck posted:

How does Hitomi (Hitomi) figure into this?

Cardboard Box posted:

girls cant love girls

Lord Justice posted:

This isn't really the thread for it, and I'll just respond one more time and drop it here. If you want to continue the discussion, I'd be happy to do so through PMs.

The shifting of WLs is contingent on information being sent from a future point to a past point. Whether it is a D-Mail or Okabe's consciousness, the effect remains the same. Each Time Leap causes the present Okabe to leap into and destroy a past Okabe which exists separately from that present Okabe in an entirely seperate WL by definition. The act of shifting WLs via the sending of information back in time is in itself self-actualizing an entirely new universe, from birth to death, with different inputs as indicated by the Divergence Factor. If the DF is small, then the new universe is probably almost identical to the one he left, but it is still a new universe.

Considering this, Time Leaping should actually increase the DF by a much greater margin, as it is an active actor being sent back, and not just a simple message. As well, Time Leaping can result in major shifts, such as Okabe managing to shift himself entirely from the Alpha Attractor Field to the Epsilon Attractor Field in Linear Bounded Phenogram.

Essentially, shifting universes can result in different inputs outside of the ones created by the interference of sending information back in time. In Homura's case, she ended up shifting into a universe where there was a different input prior to her waking up in the hospital which resulted in Kyousuke playing the guitar.

Ytlaya posted:

While we're shown them teaming up, don't they still need to use whatever they get from the Wraiths to detox their gems? It seems like, while being in a group would be beneficial in terms of surviving battles, you would also need to kill Wraiths more frequently to support more team members.

Also, the fact that it is nicer than the old system isn't exactly a compliment. That's like saying going to war now is nicer because armies won't use chemical/biological weapons or something. It's still clearly terrible, and it is still obviously quite possible for magical girls to die in the "line of duty" (like ends up happening to Sayaka). They still have terrible lives, even if they do have more support.

a cartoon duck posted:

What is the importance of Madoka growing up in a somewhat untraditional family model (husband taking care of the home and children and wife being the bread-winner rather than the opposite) on Madoka's character arc and the story as a whole?

Namtab posted:

What do you think of kyouko x madoka as a couple.

a cartoon duck posted:

What is the importance of Madoka growing up in a somewhat untraditional family model (husband taking care of the home and children and wife being the bread-winner rather than the opposite) on Madoka's character arc and the story as a whole?

Namtab posted:

Kill all men

Mordaedil posted:

Spoilered for gore

Mordaedil posted:

AlternateNu posted:

Are you talking about Three Contrapasso About The Abduction? Okabe sent two D-mails before Time Leaping in that scenario. He was already in the Epsilon attractor field before he jumped, so your argument about Time Leaping being strong enough to shift world lines like that is still bunk.

Kyte posted:

By all appearances the MG system seems to be necessary in some form, so you're gonna have something around. Plus, Madoka is right that the very existence of wishes have had an extremely strong positive impact in the world. Girls don't enter service just because "hey this sounds cool", they have wishes they want fulfilled. That never changed. Removing MGs means removing wishes.

a cartoon duck posted:

What is the importance of Madoka growing up in a somewhat untraditional family model (husband taking care of the home and children and wife being the bread-winner rather than the opposite) on Madoka's character arc and the story as a whole?

Namtab posted:

Epic response. Witty banter. Don't admit to saya no uta.

Mordaedil posted:

Only ever put in as much effort into posting as your conversation partner, you know.

Also, saya no uta is good. You are not.

Lord Justice posted:

So Kyousuke got his hand healed, but it cost Sayaka her life. Was it worth it? I would argue no.

Namtab posted:

Embarrassing to see this level of hostility from someone defending a paedophile vn. Shameful.

Ytlaya posted:

Eldritch monster children are still children (I haven't read Saya no Uta, but isn't the eldritch monster also really young?)

Ytlaya posted:

Eldritch monster children are still children (I haven't read Saya no Uta, but isn't the eldritch monster also really young?)


While this is obviously correct (since Sayaka's wish being "worth it" is dependent upon Sayaka having an extremely low sense of self-worth), I think that you might have interpreted Madoka's words wrongly. Think of it this way; Madoka would kind of be a douchebag if she told Sayaka "yeah looks like you hosed up and healing Kyousuke wasn't worth it, sucks to be you." Comforting someone after they suffer (and in this case even die) for making a bad decision is a normal thing to do, especially if the bad decision at least had some positive effect. You would have a point of Madoka had supported Sayaka contracting and making her wish in the first place, but that wasn't the case.