Senor Candle posted:Posters like Montezuma's Revenge: Defending the Fridge. Yeah, what the hell, why so invested in defending one of the most iconically egregious things to ever happen in a comic book?
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Feb 13, 2014 15:54
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Lurdiak posted:Yeah, what the hell, why so invested in defending one of the most iconically egregious things to ever happen in a comic book? Next up: That bitch Janet really did deserve it.
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Feb 13, 2014 16:00
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Lurdiak posted:Yeah, what the hell, why so invested in defending one of the most iconically egregious things to ever happen in a comic book? Because it wasn't poorly written or anything special outside of it not being comic booky. And that it in no way justifies a 6 year run being put in the bad runs thread. Much like Emerald Twilight, it's no where near as terrible as people claimed it was. rkajdi posted:Next up: That bitch Janet really did deserve it. Oh now that's just a dick move. Trying to paint me as a sexist? Have we devolved to personal insults? I'm trying to argue this quite rationally thank you and that was quite insulting.
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Feb 13, 2014 16:05
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Maybe because its a dumb thing that's been somehow amplified into being one of the "most egregious things in comic books" over time for some reason. It's just dumb shallow comic booky writing and a hamfisted way to give someone a Uncle Ben style drama that has become a crutch for writers forced to write Kyle but can't think up anything new or interesting. I'm not saying the use of women as motivational sacrifices isn't an issue but I can't believe someone could honestly say "I read Berserk but THIS just upset me to hear it!".
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Feb 13, 2014 16:05
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Onmi posted:Oh now that's just a dick move. Trying to paint me as a sexist? Have we devolved to personal insults? I'm trying to argue this quite rationally thank you and that was quite insulting. You're defending one of the seminal lovely sexist moments in comics. That puts it up there with defending hitting Janet or whatever the gently caress we want to call the Ms Marvel thing. If you don't want to be called a sexist, stop defending sexist things.
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Feb 13, 2014 16:08
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rkajdi posted:You're defending one of the seminal lovely sexist moments in comics. That puts it up there with defending hitting Janet or whatever the gently caress we want to call the Ms Marvel thing.If you don't want to be called a sexist, stop defending sexist things. So in other words you are boiling me down into saying "If you dare defend this piece of writing by showing evidence and arguing rationally, I will lump sum you with every sexist and misogynist and racist on the planet because obviously you can't just have a different opinion. Even though you've claimed it doesn't deserve to be part of the origin anymore and have simply argued the point of the actual writing." I'm going to ask you again to stop, and to discuss in good faith. Because that is slanderous, rude, and you just look like an rear end in a top hat who can't actually argue the point.
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Feb 13, 2014 16:10
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Chinaman7000 posted:I'm not saying the use of women as motivational sacrifices isn't an issue but I can't believe someone could honestly say "I read Berserk but THIS just upset me to hear it!". That's BS, the whole reason the fridge thing is a problem is because it happened in a relatively tame superhero comic. Nobody would be bitching about a woman in a fridge in a horror movie, but hey, it turns out that context matters, and having something like this happen to Green Lantern like it's no big deal to put such brutal, misogynistic and callous imagery in a mainstream superhero comic is notable in its awfulness. Sure, it's almost tame compared to Dr. Light, super-rapist, but that's just because DC never loving learned.
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Feb 13, 2014 16:13
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Lurdiak posted:That's BS, the whole reason the fridge thing is a problem is because it happened in a relatively tame superhero comic. I would say that Green Lantern was not that tame when in the previous months it had an entire city slaughtered and then the hero goes on a killing spree. I still think that the death was uncalled for and mysoginistic, but it still has nothing on Ms. Marvel.
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Feb 13, 2014 16:15
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bobkatt013 posted:I still think that the death was uncalled for and mysoginistic, but it still has nothing on Ms. Marvel. Hey, you won't see me defend THAT mess.
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Feb 13, 2014 16:19
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I chalk the gruesomeness up to the 90's being the 90's. I look forward to the internet of the future rediscovering Identity Crisis.
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Feb 13, 2014 16:20
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bobkatt013 posted:I would say that Green Lantern was not that tame when in the previous months it had an entire city slaughtered and then the hero goes on a killing spree. I still think that the death was uncalled for and mysoginistic, but it still has nothing on Ms. Marvel. Acutally want to point out that Hal never went on a Killing Spree even as he defeated the Green Lanterns, the only two he killed (Directly) were Kilowog and Sinestro, the latter he cursed, the former he wept over    Lurdiak posted:Hey, you won't see me defend THAT mess. And neither would I, which is why I find it insulting that it was implied I would defend that or Janet being slapped.
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Feb 13, 2014 16:20
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Lurdiak posted:That's BS, the whole reason the fridge thing is a problem is because it happened in a relatively tame superhero comic. Nobody would be bitching about a woman in a fridge in a horror movie, but hey, it turns out that context matters, and having something like this happen to Green Lantern like it's no big deal to put such brutal, misogynistic and callous imagery in a mainstream superhero comic is notable in its awfulness. Sure, it's almost tame compared to Dr. Light, super-rapist, but that's just because DC never loving learned. Right. Also, I'm not defending that comic, I'm just saying that I don't think stuffing a dead woman in a fridge is tame.
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Feb 13, 2014 16:24
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rkajdi posted:
While there was dreck coming out of the early 90's there were still some gold spots and I hold that Batman's run through most of the 90's was pretty freaking solid. Also DC did try experiment outside a bit and released stuff like Major bummer.
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Feb 13, 2014 17:13
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Onmi posted:Oh now that's just a dick move. Trying to paint me as a sexist? Have we devolved to personal insults? I'm trying to argue this quite rationally thank you and that was quite insulting. There's nothing rational about it. You're defending terribly sexist poo poo and trying to back it with some weird library of gore that you apparently have at your fingertips. You actually said (of another panel) "It reminds me of a serial killer, and that's why I like it" Bypass the comic shop, go straight to a mental health clinic.
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Feb 13, 2014 18:11
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While I almost want to help you out Onmi because I do think "the fridge" has become a hyper-inflated part of Kyle's character that people bring up too much, the real reason fridging became a "thing", by which I mean the term became so prevalent as it's used, is because unlike some of the other examples you listed like the Waynes and Uncle Ben, Alex wasn't Kyle's origin. Kyle already was a superhero, as opposed to those other guys' deaths leading to Batman and Spider-Man's creations. Sure he may have learned to be more serious or great responsibility or whatever, but the point is that he ultimately got a brutally murdered girlfriend for no real reason. He didn't get the Ion power after grieving or anything, he just grieved. At least his mom kicked the bucket, silly as that was (I mean sentient virus c'mon), so that Sinestro could teach him fear or whatever for the SCW. And that's a silly reason, but it's a reason. e: wrong thread for this. TwoPair fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Feb 13, 2014 |
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Feb 13, 2014 18:25
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^^ I think you are in the wrong thread. That should not be in worst runs. TwoPair posted:While I almost want to help you out Onmi because I do think "the fridge" has become a hyper-inflated part of Kyle's character that people bring up too much, the real reason fridging became a "thing", by which I mean the term became so prevalent as it's used, is because unlike some of the other examples you listed like the Waynes and Uncle Ben, Alex wasn't Kyle's origin. Kyle already was a superhero, as opposed to those other guys' deaths leading to Batman and Spider-Man's creations. Sure he may have learned to be more serious or great responsibility or whatever, but the point is that he ultimately got a brutally murdered girlfriend for no real reason. He didn't get the Ion power after grieving or anything, he just grieved. At least his mom kicked the bucket, silly as that was (I mean sentient virus c'mon), so that Sinestro could teach him fear or whatever for the SCW. And that's a silly reason, but it's a reason. It seemed that he wanted it to be his Gwen Stacy moment, but we did not know her so it seemed cheap. It also led to Mary Jane becoming a character and poo poo with Harry. However, the reason behind it was just as bad, as she was killed since the writer did not like her and just decided to get rid of her. The best teen hero post Lee/Kirby/Ditko is still pre-52 Jaime 
bobkatt013 fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Feb 13, 2014 |
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Feb 13, 2014 18:28
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Another point, based on what I can remember from an old issue of Wizard: as originally drawn, the fridge was open all the way, so you could actually see Alex's body. DC editorial thought that was too gruesome (maybe for Code approval?), so the artist moved the fridge door over to partially cover her up. The result was that some people saw only the leg, and thought she had been dismembered. So yeah, not exactly one of DC's best moments.
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Feb 13, 2014 18:31
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TwoPair posted:While I almost want to help you out Onmi because I do think "the fridge" has become a hyper-inflated part of Kyle's character that people bring up too much, the real reason fridging became a "thing", by which I mean the term became so prevalent as it's used, is because unlike some of the other examples you listed like the Waynes and Uncle Ben, Alex wasn't Kyle's origin. Kyle already was a superhero, as opposed to those other guys' deaths leading to Batman and Spider-Man's creations. Sure he may have learned to be more serious or great responsibility or whatever, but the point is that he ultimately got a brutally murdered girlfriend for no real reason. He didn't get the Ion power after grieving or anything, he just grieved. At least his mom kicked the bucket, silly as that was (I mean sentient virus c'mon), so that Sinestro could teach him fear or whatever for the SCW. And that's a silly reason, but it's a reason. I thought that was because Simone made a fuss about it to get hits on her blog?
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Feb 13, 2014 18:39
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:I thought that was because Simone made a fuss about it to get hits on her blog? "Uppity women are only pointing out examples of horrible poo poo in comics as an example of social injustice to get attention."- The man who will not shut the gently caress up about how great Red Hood & The Woman With Her Tits Out is.
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Feb 13, 2014 19:01
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TheJoker138 posted:"Uppity women are only pointing out examples of horrible poo poo in comics as an example of social injustice to get attention."- The man who will not shut the gently caress up about how great Red Hood & The Woman With Her Tits Out is. She did have a point when it started. It was shocking to see all the examples that she had listed on the site. The problem now is like all things the term gets thrown around all the time it looses its impact. I mean it has gotten better, but not perfect.
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Feb 13, 2014 19:03
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:I thought that was because Simone made a fuss about it to get hits on her blog? While you phrased that horribly, yes, "fridging" became the term instead of some earlier example pretty much entirely thanks to Simone.
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Feb 13, 2014 19:07
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As long as ubiquity of that term and the conversation around it keeps some lazy writer from using that cliche, all is well. Even the fridge issue aside, Kyle Rayner era was pretty dry on good comics. Especially compared to what Waid did with Flash. It may be a minor and petty thing, but I was always annoyed by a superathlete phisique that artists kept giving Kyle. He is supposed to be a scrawny artist, but he is constantly portrayed as a muscular hunk, which contrasted him with other young and "legacy" heroes - like Jack Knight, Static or Invincible. Also I think that he is as much a blank state character as Hal Jordan, just one for another generation.
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Feb 13, 2014 19:20
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Kyle had a lot more personality than Hal, but a lot of that stems from being in some of the strongest JLA runs around. If Morrison, Waid, and Kelly can't make you an interesting character there's not much hope for you.
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Feb 13, 2014 19:25
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TheJoker138 posted:"Uppity women are only pointing out examples of horrible poo poo in comics as an example of social injustice to get attention."- The man who will not shut the gently caress up about how great Red Hood & The Woman With Her Tits Out is. Never read Simone's original blog and I don't have her on high regard thanks to her work still, sorry for my unwarranted sarcasm.
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Feb 13, 2014 19:31
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TheJoker138 posted:"Uppity women are only pointing out examples of horrible poo poo in comics as an example of social injustice to get attention."- The man who will not shut the gently caress up about how great Red Hood & The Woman With Her Tits Out is. Look at this guy liking comics I don't like.
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Feb 13, 2014 19:38
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Madkal posted:Look at this guy liking comics I don't like. Nah, that's totally fine. It's his thing about constantly defending it every time someone goes "why did they make Starfire into a one dimensional cheese cake character?" that makes it weird. If you want to discuss this, though, it's already happening in the DC death watch thread. Also yeah, Simone is a bad comic book writer, but that doesn't mean she was wrong about the whole fridging thing. Yes it's just one example but it's a good short hand for it that is popular.
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Feb 13, 2014 19:43
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TheJoker138 posted:Nah, that's totally fine. It's his thing about constantly defending it every time someone goes "why did they make Starfire into a one dimensional cheese cake character?" that makes it weird. If you want to discuss this, though, it's already happening in the DC death watch thread. Her Deadpool and Agent X was pretty good.
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Feb 13, 2014 19:45
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bobkatt013 posted:Her Deadpool and Agent X was pretty good. I haven't read these so I can't speak to them, I've really only read her DC work which I was not a fan of. Although I don't think any of it is bad enough to warrant a spot in this thread. It just kind of...exists.
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Feb 13, 2014 19:49
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I really really liked her Secret Six comics. I find though that she has a certain voice that goes well with less than lovable characters, and she doesn't really know how to change it up. I have heard from people (outside these forums) that her Batgirl was good but it never really hooked me.
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Feb 13, 2014 19:51
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Madkal posted:I really really liked her Secret Six comics. I find though that she has a certain voice that goes well with less than lovable characters, and she doesn't really know how to change it up. I have heard from people (outside these forums) that her Batgirl was good but it never really hooked me. I tried to get into her Secret Six run but couldn't do it. That might have been more to the fact that I didn't care about a lot of the characters in it to begin with, however. I dropped her New 52 Batgirl after the first few issues because I just found it boring.
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Feb 13, 2014 19:54
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I've heard good things about her Birds of Prey but all the cheesecake made me feel like I couldn't pick up a book without looking like a pervert. I also really liked her Villains United and Secret Six stuff, that was one of the few good things to come out of Infinite Crisis. Oh and her Deadpool and Agent X bloody own. There's an arc where Deadpool accidentally shrinks the Rhino with Pym Particles and carries him around on a keychain. That kind-of creativity puts her well ahead of the curve.
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Feb 13, 2014 19:54
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Keromaru5 posted:Another point, based on what I can remember from an old issue of Wizard: as originally drawn, the fridge was open all the way, so you could actually see Alex's body. DC editorial thought that was too gruesome (maybe for Code approval?), so the artist moved the fridge door over to partially cover her up. The result was that some people saw only the leg, and thought she had been dismembered. I actually never read the comic, but have seen the picture and I too assumed that she was dismembered. I'm actually kind of glad to know that wasn't the case.
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Feb 14, 2014 07:42
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I actively dislike 99% of the Gail Simone comics I've read, and I still think she raised valid points with the WiF stuff.
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Feb 15, 2014 21:45
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Onmi posted:Also, I'm going to be doing a writeup of Ken Penders on Sonic the Hedgehog (Archie) but it's a long one... a long, long, long thing to write. But it belongs here, along side the worst of the worst. I for one am eagerly awaiting your overview of his godawful Knuckles spin-off comic 
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Feb 16, 2014 16:08
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Chocolate Teapot posted:I for one am eagerly awaiting your overview of his godawful Knuckles spin-off comic I will in fact be trying my hardest to cover ever facit of everything wrong with Ken Penders, from his stories, to his horrid characters to his art.   I can not half-rear end this, I need to make this perfect before posting it.
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Feb 17, 2014 08:24
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Green Knuckles? Maybe leftover Gamma Radiation is responsible for his Sonic Boom design...
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Feb 18, 2014 16:16
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Goddamn that is some terrible dialog. Was Ken Penders the writer too, or just the artist?
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Feb 18, 2014 17:05
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He was the writer. In fact I'm not even sure if that's his art or not.
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Feb 18, 2014 17:53
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Evil Mastermind posted:Goddamn that is some terrible dialog. Was Ken Penders the writer too, or just the artist? Both! Depending on the issue. Ken Penders was an utterly utterly insane human being, by far up there with some of the great nutjobs of comics, although in his case he never once bosted an iota of loving talent with which to hold to past success. Don't believe me? this is a recent Penders work.  Again, this was not something he did back when he was a newbie this was recent, as in 2013 recent. To understand the sheer loving insanity of Ken Penders, let's travel back to 1993, the 90's were getting underway, the NES and Genesis were still in the heat of their console war, and Sonic the Hedgehog was just getting his feet underneath him as a property. with Sonic the Hedgehog 2 really kicking things into overdrive for the blue blur, Sega licensed out the american comic rights to Archie (And they licensed the european ones to Fleetway, but that's not for this thread). Regardless, enter our first writer, Mike Gallagher. Now Mike Gallagher was a simple man, he looked at this comic about a blue hedgehog fighting a fat man industrialist and said "this shits a comedy gold mine" so the comics roots were as a comedy, lots of jokes, silly situations and feeling more like "The neighbourhood kids fighting with the angry next door neighbour." And the comic was good, it was simple and fun and hadn't even begun to "exhaust potential stories" or anything like that...  I mean look at this poo poo, Mike Gallagher is just having fun here. And then Ken loving Penders arrived. Now in the beginning, it wasn't too bad, since Penders was flanked by Mike Kanterovich who co-wrote with him, and that probably tamed some of Penders loony tunes insanity, also helping was the fact that Knuckles didn't exist yet. But we'll get to that. See... Penders had a really, really lovely idea for a story, called "The Lost Ones" but nobody wanted to touch his complete crap comic, so what he wound up doing was basically using the Sonic Comic as springboard for his own fiction, so to start with we had to make the setting dark, like... really dark. Now I'm not saying you can't have darkness is Sonic the Hedgehog, the comics these days show that a light sprinkling of heavy poo poo can make for a delightful topping on the icecream that is the main comic. But Penders was not happy with that. Now it's worth pointing out before we go on... Penders knows nothing about Sonic. He's never played a Sonic Game, even though he worked on the comic well past Adventure 2. In fact he was fired in 2006, so from 1994 to 2006 is the scope of this "Bad Run" Process that for a moment. 12 loving years of this. Not always as the main writer, but ALWAYS there. In the back-ups, or the "Specials" or the horrible, horrible torture he inflicted upon Knuckles. And I know I'm focusing on him as a creator right now but we need to establish this, you need to understand the mind of the man heading this worst run. He had never played Sonic in the 12 years he was working on the comic, and he was an utterly terrible human being to work with. He was not the single solitary writer on Sonic, for a few years Karl Bollers was actually the head of this crazy train, and he was bad, but not WORST Runs bad, a rambler, bad art, but he got better. Years go on and he improves, and to his credit actually plays the games, wants to incorperate stuff from them into the comic. But Penders does not like this. So he just disregards everything anyone else ever wrote and continues on doing his thing, regardless of any plot holes or general stupidity left in its wake. He was 100% completely unprofessional and a noted terror to work with, when he didn't get his way? oh he would simply out his cowriters pen names and completely undermine them. Because that's how he rolls. So hopefully, with all that you can grasp what kind of man was behind this comic. So... Penders starts introducing a tonne of characters, almost all of which are human sized animals of some sort so completely missing the style of the source material that we wound up with mother goose here  Or in the chance that an introduced character belonged to a race of Hedgehogs/Echidnas etc. they would literally just be that character but with hair and in clothes.  As is the case with Knuckles extended family here, and hoo BOY was knuckles family extended. You know how we talked about Ken Penders idea "The Lost Ones" and how he couldn't get anyone to publish it? well here was Knuckles, all on his lonesome, Guardian of Angel Island, last Echidna, blah blah blah. Well Penders looked at that and went "Jackpot" and poor loving Knuckles got to be the side character in his own book so that Penders could tell his 'Wonderful' stories with people just lapping it up.  In this wonderful example of Penders writing, we see Golden Gamma, Issac, who despite predating Gamma by at least thousands of years, it could stretch to millenia, still has E-102 ENGRAVED UPON HIS BODY! Because that's how Penders rolled, this by the way was issue #148 in the year 2005! This was the standard of art and writing quality. By the way, if you're paying attention to Issacs insanity he's hinting at a Penders Original Villain, Ivan Kintobor, or "Droid" because this was the same man who named a Hunter, Hunter, born on 6/6/6. Penders had been building to that nonsense ever since he first started writing, it was after all the reason Knuckles father, Locke (Knuckles in a bathrobe and a goatee) microwaved his egg with a Chaos Emerald (of which there were thousands. Because despite the comic establishing there were only seven early on, Penders didn't care, nor had he payed attention to the games across the 12 years he'd been working on the comics.) So that Knuckles would be born the savior!  Not that he ever deigned to stay with Sonic or Knuckles, he instead preferred to greatly follow the stories of his original characters, all of who interacted with more of his original characters. Such facts lead to the lovely titled "Chaotix Caper" which despite constantly boasting to star the Chaotix, actually featured them kidnapped in the first issues, as Knuckles spent about 4 months going on and on about his backstory.  But see Penders saw himself as the one true scribe of all things Sonic, despite never having played a Sonic game etc. etc. you know the score by now. So much so that he was penning the TRUE DEFINITIVE END TO THE SONIC STORY LINE. The "Mobius, X Years Later" stories, which can best be summed up as "A bunch of characters sit around talking and Knuckles and his family" Yeah Sonic didn't get to do poo poo and nobody liked him anyway, cause he was a lovely king.  And he died in the end failing to save them all because Sonic destroyed the world by travelling to alternate worlds. If you're expecting an iota of that to have any sense, I pity you.  After all, the man believes that Vegetables are seperate things from Biological. And I could go on... and on... and on... I could tell you about how Penders truly believes he owns the characters of "Evil Sonic" and "Robo-Robotnik" And the concept of a Sonic Multiverse. I could tell you about how he's currently suing Sega and EA because he believes that Sonic Chronicles is a rip-off of his characters and ideas that had nothing to do with Sega or Archie. Despite being written for the Sonic Comic. I could subject myself to finding every terrible issue from there and back again to subject you all to the same torturous dialogue, art (which wasn't all Penders doing, but Penders was known for going over other artists work to "correct it" as one former artist can attest). I could go on about the horrible misogyny of "Hey, you saw me, so now your soul bound to me and will literally give up everything in your life just to be with me." or "Evil Sonic took off his leather jacket and Sunglasses and went around loving Bunnie Rabbot and acting like a sleeze to the rest of the female cast." But instead we'll just end two things, what finally caused Sega to smite this man, and his magnum opus, the thing you can never forget First, the smite.  The story goes that a Sega employee or executive or someone from Sega saw the cover of Issue #155, on it, Sonic was... well as you can see, bawling his eyes out in the most depressed manner possible all with the subtitle of "The worlds most way past cool comic!" Now given that this was 2006 and Sonic 06 was soon releasing, Sega had kind of hit a low point when it came to Sonics brand imaging. Now until this point they had been content to let Archie do whatever they wanted because, gently caress it, money. But after years of bad games, Sonics stock had falled and they knew they had to fix it up. So seeing this was a wake up call, and Sega promptly took Archie to task for the past 12 years of horrible, horrible comics. At this time almost all the writers save Penders had left, he had finally vanquished his steadily improving foe Karl Bollers, the editor at the time was too busy talking about Star Wars and Putting on a Pseudonym to write stories about the REAL first Freedom Fighters or Tommy Turtle Sonics best friend. Well this was a boot to Archies rear end, clean up, or lose the license. So they did, they fired almost all the old artists, demoted Penders from his position as main writer for some newcomer Ian Flynn, and behold. The comic was good.  Really  Really  Really  Good.  You could have your funny, light-hearted stuff along with every now and then something heavy and serious, which due to sparcity meant more than a constant world of darkness and war. And here's something else I forgot to mention, Penders never liked using about 98% of the actual Sonic characters, he despised Sonic and pretty much did everything possible to not have to write him, and instead write one of the two characters who were his pets, Knuckles and Tails. Amy Rose as a character debuted in 94, it wasn't until 06 and beyond, after the writer change, that she actually got to do anything, and became amazing  So for the final part, what you must always take away when you think of Penders, his magnum opus, having built up that Tails was "The Chosen One" since about Issue #20. Literally a decade of build up... for this   Destiny. Metal Loaf posted:He was the writer. In fact I'm not even sure if that's his art or not. It is, in fact, he did that issue "Solo" by which of course it's meant that no one could be cooerced into doing it with him. It's most definitly his art as the first was found directly on his web page and the latter comes from one of the back-up stories, during the whole "Chaos Knuckles" debackle, because he turned green for a year. The he became Jesus and died for everyones sins. I am not an unfair man, I have blamed him for nothing he did not do, much of the art up there was handled by Steve Butler, but that comic in particular was all Penders. I'm not kidding that I could go on forever about this poo poo. Onmi fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Feb 18, 2014 |
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Feb 18, 2014 19:24
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A few years ago I was a really big Sonic fan and I tried to get my hands on every media he was featured but when I managed to look at the comics and see them filled to the brim with talking animals than I never saw on the games, I went 'gently caress this poo poo' and never looked back. Only until the megaman crossover I picked up a sonic comic again. Is nice to know than everything was Penders fault.
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Feb 18, 2014 19:36
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