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Mystic Mongol
Jan 5, 2007


You're the right kind of dreamer to release my inner fantasy.
The invincible winner, and you know that you were born to be!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GPGQoR6f6w



In the year 2011, the Mayan's prediction of the end of the world came true. But rather than the world ending, the world changed--orcs, dwarves, elves, and trolls returned to the world as magic came creeping back. The Native Americans were among the first to use the new power of magic, using powerful blood magic to summon volcanoes under the cities of their foes and reclaim most of North America. The next several decades of warfare, plague, and hate radically changed the face of the world as power slipped from the hands of the governments and people and into the iron grip of enormous megacorporations and strange, immortal beings.

Now it is 2075. The world has segmented, with most being Corporate Citizens, members of a corporation with extraterritoriality rights rivaling that of first world nations, leading lives of comfort and safety as long as their loyalty is never in question. Others fall between the cracks, lacking a System Identification Number, becoming the SINless citizens with few rights and no expectations of protection from the private security forces that have replaced the police. While the elves and orcs can probably expect to walk down the street without being beaten to death, other groups like the sasquatches and the ghouls struggle to integrate in a society that hunts them like monsters. And magical beasts stalk the streets at night and feed on the unwary and unfortunate.

With corporations, governments, private interests, metahuman nationalists, and stranger groups all find themselves in an endless gridlock, unable to act directly against one another without setting off a war that would destroy the planet, only one group can be relied on to get things done. Shadowrunners are professional criminals, wearing suits or leather jackets or bright pink PVC, who have the skills, magical talents, cutting edge equipment, or raw moxie to do things mere humans can not. Be they hackers cracking systems and compromising security systems on the fly, riggers commanding teams of deadly drones, magicians or shamans slinging spells and summoning spirits, adepts turning their natural body into the perfect weapon, street samurai who use the latest technology to become the ultimate weapon, or anyone else with the skills to get the job done, a Shadowrunner lives a life of danger. He chooses his job, he decides if the price is too high, and he enjoys the tremendous wealth--until the day he gets betrayed, and he gets two to the back of the head.

Watch your back! Shoot straight. Conseve ammo. And never deal with a dragon.

Quickstart rules!



Shadowrun recently released the fifth edition! Let's talk about it here.





The big changes:

The Priority System

It's baaaack! No more point-buy, except for the little bit of point buy at the end. Instead, divide your A, B, C, D, and E priorities between Stats, Skills, Moneys, Race, and Being Magic. Now, every character doesn't have 200 BP in attributes and 50 BP in resources! Instead every character looks sadly between their attributes and all the sweet ware they want, because you can't have both.

Edge, Magic, and Resonance are all tied to your race priority pick, which basically means no troll technomancers. Trolls belong in the kitchen, punching me some goddamn dinner.


Armor

Your base armor is uncapped now. You can wear two different suits of armor, but they don't stack at all. Armor accessories (helmets, shields, kneepads) are limited by strength. It is relatively simple to play an orc with body + armor in the low 40s. Everyone else wears armored jackets exclusively for inexpensive armor 12.


Weapons

Everything does way more damage now. Armor up in all this new armor you get. You can't get away with wearing a Hawaiian shirt in combat any more.


Limits

Based on your stats, now you have three limits which restrict the number of successes you can get on an check. Your social limit is partially based on your essence, which means your essence matters again, and if that bothers you there's more 'ware you can get to raise your limits.

Maybe this will reward generalization and punish overspecialization. Maybe it will screw everyone who didn't go attributes A to maximize their limits. Honestly we need to see how this unfolds at the table first.


Mystic Adepts

Mystic adepts can do anything magicians can do, better and cheaper, except project into the astral plane. And no one does that now that you can't get good peyote. They are due for a good nerfing, and there's a promise that it'll be addressed in upcoming errata, but we got through all of 4th edition without them ever deciding if an agility 9 cyberarm was good enough for firearms or swordfighting, so don't hold your breath.


Cyberdecks and Rigging Command Consoles

Consumer electronics can no longer hack the gibson, and you need a stupidly expensive neon keyboard again. Piloting drones is a bit more of an investment now, but not an onerous one. Commlinks have gone back to being glorified iPhones.


Used 'ware

Starting characters can (and probably will) be filled to the brim with shoddy second hand bones they bought from a dude off of second street. It's cool, these bones only had one previous owner, a little old lady who took them to church once a week. Just, you know. Try not to let a cop see the bar code on them ribs. No reason.






IRC

Over on synirc, there's a channel called #shadowrun! It's infested with goons.








Let's try to leave the previous edition in the previous thread.

Somebody fucked around with this message at Oct 4, 2013 around 00:23

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Hypha
Sep 13, 2008

Pikurusu


I've pre-ordered fifth edition as the first PnP book I have ever bought. I have went into Shadowrun basically blind and don't know the scene at all. Are people going to be playing this edition actively or will it be like DnD and the population splits between iterations?

Mystic Mongol
Jan 5, 2007


You're the right kind of dreamer to release my inner fantasy.
The invincible winner, and you know that you were born to be!

Hard to say! The fact the copyediting on the new version is dog garbage doesn't help, but that was true of 4e before the re-release.

Certainly everyone's arguing about the differences, but we've yet to see how it shakes out. THe fact they've started a public play league should promote the new edition.

Mystic Mongol fucked around with this message at Aug 3, 2013 around 01:39

MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008


I'm actually in an IRC group that's already using the system, and has been since shortly after release. It's worked pretty damned well for us.

Mystic Mongol
Jan 5, 2007


You're the right kind of dreamer to release my inner fantasy.
The invincible winner, and you know that you were born to be!

So tell us how Limits has been working out for you.

MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008


Mystic Mongol posted:

So tell us how Limits has been working out for you.

They're mostly just keeping people from getting shittons of hits. Mostly they've popped up when shooting people and someone rolls a pile of hits to soak or shoot a man. The fact that a limit technically applies to soak is actually pretty brutal. You might have 40 dice to stop the bullet with your left eye, but your limit might be something like 5 or 6. It's actually pretty easy to hit your limit given a little luck.

Piell
Sep 3, 2006



MohawkSatan posted:

They're mostly just keeping people from getting shittons of hits. Mostly they've popped up when shooting people and someone rolls a pile of hits to soak or shoot a man. The fact that a limit technically applies to soak is actually pretty brutal. You might have 40 dice to stop the bullet with your left eye, but your limit might be something like 5 or 6. It's actually pretty easy to hit your limit given a little luck.

Armor doesn't have limits.

"Note that limits generally only apply to tests involving a dice pool derived from a skill and an attribute. Tests using a single attribute, or two attributes, do not use limits."

MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008


Piell posted:

Armor doesn't have limits.

"Note that limits generally only apply to tests involving a dice pool derived from a skill and an attribute. Tests using a single attribute, or two attributes, do not use limits."

Well then. I'm just dumb then, because I thought they did. On the other hand, that just made it a lot easier to survive, which is nice because the increased damage already hurts like crazy

edit: I should note that it really is easy to have absurd amounts of dice for soaking. We're playing a street level ganger game, and a group of cybered-up Humanis backed guys we're fighting now are rolling like 18 dice to soak

MohawkSatan fucked around with this message at Aug 3, 2013 around 02:29

Nyaa
Jan 7, 2010

What's so fun about playing with yourself?

Our street level ganger game have a run on last Wednesday with seven players and two gm. First hour is forming the plan, then one hour prepare and executing plans, and last two hours is engage and combat.

I can't really recall the details so pardon the vagueness. MohawkSatan probably can recall it better.

We ended up with three players (2 adept, 1 mage) and one F5 air spirit (player controlled) fighting against two cybered ganger with rifles.

- Everyone rolled about 2 IP worth of init, mostly thanks to the kamikaze that two of the players swallowed.
- Ganger shot the players. Player A didn't roll enough dodge and he gonna get hit with like 12 dv -2 AP, so he spend edge to finally dodge it. Weapon damage is so drat scary.
- Full defense is great! Totally worth the 10 init. Save yourself from spending that edge too.
- About one or two missed shots going here and there that I can't recall.
- Spirit one shotted one goon with elemental attack. 10 Dv -5 AP, Still powerful as ever at F5.
- Ganger goon manage to shot one player with armor jacket, do like 10 damage I think, and someone cast heal and heal it off 7 damage (10 - 3 (essence penalty))
- Spirit use engulf and also do 10 dv -5 AP. Ganger resist it down to 8 damage.
- Adept elf player with a blade melee another goon, cleave through the goon's metal brain in one hit. Melee hurt more than gun thanks to high str (and Kamikaze).
- Note that GM have pretty bad roll tonight so that might be why the ganger died a bit too quickly.

All these took two hours, and it's the first combat turn.

Yep, two hours for one combat turn with four active player vs two goon with two gm.

Gm said it would be faster once they get used to the new rule, but I think they did it pretty fast to resolve everything.

Edit: Limit wise, we have houserule to start our char with skill 4 max, so we never really hit the limit to know. So I guess it's not an issue for low power street level game.

whydirt
Apr 18, 2001


Gaz Posting Brigade

I've never actually read or played Shadowrun, but I've picked up a decent amount through secondhand sources. It sounds like the 5th edition is moving the time of the setting further into the future? If so, how does it differ from earlier editions.

MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008


Nyaa posted:


- Everyone rolled about 2 IP worth of init, mostly thanks to the kamikaze that two of the players swallowed.
- Ganger shot the players. Player A didn't roll enough dodge and he gonna get hit with like 12 dv -2 AP, so he spend edge to finally dodge it. Weapon damage is so drat scary.
- Ganger goon manage to shot one player with armor jacket, do like 10 damage I think, and someone cast heal and heal it off 7 damage (10 - 3 (essence penalty))


The character in both of these? Yeup. That was me. Also the the spirit (mostly) killed two goons: one got lightening bolted, the other got engulfed. The engulfed one survived, but then got shot in the head. The combat did go slow as heck, but it was a bit clusterfucky, and at least two of us players were basically zombies from lack of sleep at that point. Our last fight actually went a lot quicker, but was a bit more hosed up(fight versus ghouls, followed by gangland execution of ghoul kids, because they're worth money too.)

Nyaa
Jan 7, 2010

What's so fun about playing with yourself?

Oh yeah, the ghoul one was pretty fast. Same speed as Sr4 actually. About 3 players vs like 5-6 ghoul. The mage girl just fireballs them to death though.

Edit: So I guess magic is still good after all. For a street level game.

EscortMission
Mar 4, 2009

Come with me
if you want to live.


I am a little heartbroken that they changed up Food Fight but whatever I can always run the one in the Stuffer Shack after the one in the diner I guess.

Paper Lion
Dec 13, 2009





Real disappointed that technomancers are basically useless until there's some supplements and errata because as it stands, according to the letter of the rules hackers are just straight up better, even taking the lost nuyen for the expensive deck into account.

MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008


Paper Lion posted:

Real disappointed that technomancers are basically useless until there's some supplements and errata because as it stands, according to the letter of the rules hackers are just straight up better, even taking the lost nuyen for the expensive deck into account.

Care to explain? In my once-over for Technos and hackers they seemed pretty good.

children overboard
Apr 3, 2009


I quite like the new matrix and its mark system. Anyone had much in-game experience with it? Is it feasible to do things like break people's guns mid-combat or take over cars and run people over? Or is it still a more efficient use of actions for hackers to just shoot enemies?

Also I really like the suppressive fire rule that levies a penalty to actions for those caught in it.

Elfface
Nov 14, 2010

Da-na-na-na-na-na-na
IRON JONAH

Matrix MARKs are amazing compared to the big list of actions and opposing skill rolls of the previous edition. Plus you don't have to buy program's for your individual matrix actions anymore. Your Cyberdeck already knows how to Attack, Scan, Data Bomb etc. and now program's give you extra abilities, like boosting certain actions, or checking the Overwatch score.

I'm still not sure how feasible bricking guns in combat is. It looks like it's entirely dependant on if the device is slaved to a commlink, and if so, how good it's owner is. An elite guard with an expensive link will almost certainly have his gun slaved to it, and so be quite tricky. Random ganger, maybe not.

The other issue is RFID chaff. Currently, RAW, if you have 99 RFID tags and one gun, all running silent, when the hacker makes a Matrix Perception test to spot your gun, 99% of the time he'll spot a tag instead. Same goes for any place with a lot of silent devices, it's down to luck if you spot the one your after.
There are two ideas for fixing that. The first, is some sort of device priority on random reveals, that puts tags quite low, since the things are already everywhere. The second is letting the player narrow their focus with enough hits on Matrix Perception. Maybe lose two dice to search only for 'weapons'. They may still find a survival knife before the minigun, but their odds are much better. However, if the device turns out to be a Throwback with no wifi, they lose their chance to pick up a commlink instead.

Hypha
Sep 13, 2008

Pikurusu


What is the correct way to style a campaign? I was under the impression that combat was something to avoid unless the odds are stacked heavily in your favour. A parallel I am thinking of is like Thief, where entering combat usually meant you restarted. The example scenario in the quick rules though heavily implies combat will be involved and much of the rules involve combat. I thought combat was this hyper lethal thing or are just the more interesting scenarios the ones which put combat roles more to the side?

Kai Tave
Jul 2, 2012


The answer is there is no right answer. Which is a lovely non-answer but the truth of the matter is "should Shadowrun be a game of stealthy, low-profile operators ghosting through security and slipping out like the wind, careful not to trigger a single alarm or alert a single guard or you might as well consider the mission blown or should I bring the plastic explosives or the missile launcher, gently caress it I'll bring both" is a debate (and frequently an argument) that has gone on at least since I was first into Shadowrun which is coming up on 15 years and three editions ago now.

Whether combat is a good idea is going to depend heavily on the GM, the sort of game he's interested in running, and possibly how clever/sadistic the GM is feeling. Combat in Shadowrun can be dangerous, especially to characters not crunched for maximum killosity, but it's not even so much "this one particular fight might be the end of you" as "if you go around shooting the poo poo out of things you can expect the situation to escalate rapidly." Killing average corp security jockeys may not present a terrific challenge, but dealing with an elite corporate rapid response team could be a serious threat. Start a running gun battle in the middle of the city and you can expect Lone Star or Knight Errant to start deploying SWAT teams once you hit four stars.

It's often a good idea not to go in guns blazing unless your aim is wanton destruction; discretion isn't just safer, it's also cheaper and a lot of 'runners are motivated by the bottom line. But if a fight breaks out it shouldn't be the end of the world, and having some crazy gunfights isn't a guaranteed recipe for instant character death provided they're doing sensible things like wearing armor, taking cover, looking for opportunities to fight dirty, making use of things like covering fire, etc.

OB_Juan
Nov 24, 2004

I activate my Ancient Scholar ... to begin studying.


So far, the nice thing about technomancers is that they can do some things (depending on known forms) without MARKs. Fading continues to be Serious Business, however.

Invisible Ted
Aug 24, 2011

hhhehehe


children overboard posted:

I quite like the new matrix and its mark system. Anyone had much in-game experience with it? Is it feasible to do things like break people's guns mid-combat or take over cars and run people over? Or is it still a more efficient use of actions for hackers to just shoot enemies?

Also I really like the suppressive fire rule that levies a penalty to actions for those caught in it.

I don't really know about bricking guns so much, but from my experience the MARKs system runs incredibly fluidly, the only issue is that the matrix actions section doesn't have a corresponding table with all the attacker and defender tools. I ended up just making the table myself along with almost every other matrix table here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...Z3c&usp=sharing

Forums Terrorist
Dec 8, 2011

i like vlc.

OB_Juan posted:

So far, the nice thing about technomancers is that they can do some things (depending on known forms) without MARKs. Fading continues to be Serious Business, however.

Are they still hobbled out of the gate by how resource intensive technomancer bennies are?

OB_Juan
Nov 24, 2004

I activate my Ancient Scholar ... to begin studying.


Forums Terrorist posted:

Are they still hobbled out of the gate by how resource intensive technomancer bennies are?

Well, they still use their stun track as their matrix track (which also where boxes of fading usually go), they can't run programs without submerging (they can get a program per submersion level), and can't really use cyberware without tanking their Resonance. Oh, and as their living persona is dictated by their stats, they can't swap it around like a deck.

And they pretty much have to buy 2-3 extra skills. On the upside, they LOOK like they get really good later. That said, it seems like stats, skills, and technomancer ARE your first three priorities with them.

Forums Terrorist
Dec 8, 2011

i like vlc.

Welp, so much for making a troll technomancer anything that isn't a living ballista I guess

Digital Osmosis
Nov 10, 2002

Smile, Citizen! Happiness is Mandatory.

Glancing over the technomancer rules it seems like they're roughly equal to deckers, but I imagine they'll pull ahead. Their complex forms in this edition are all basically matrix spells. While they seem to need a lot of their CFs to keep up with a decker (which is bad because it exposes them to fading that deckers can ignore) it looks to me like their ability to use sprites puts them back on sorta equal footing out of the gate. The thing is, their CFs are basically spells. While most of the CFs are just analogous to decker actions or buff them like decker programs, a few of the CFs seem to circumvent or change the rules of the matrix. I feel like after a few supplements they'll be enough of a CF bloat that you'll start seeing really overpowered technomancers again.

whoda thunkit
Sep 20, 2010


My groups going to be playing SR5 soon and I'm rolling a bunch of characters to fill whatever role no one chooses. I'm pretty limitted in my gaming experience (I played 1st edition waaaay back in the day, but none of understood hacking so we pretended it didn't exist) and was debating whether to go with a technomancer or decker.

From my 1st read the impression I got was that Technomancers would make a great reconaisance player for premission cyberstalking because of their ability to bounce between grids and thier lack of equipment would limit thier signature, until they start making trouble. They also seem like good support for deckers because they can hide them from GOD or boost their stats with programs. Their use of Sprites seem kind of
interesting to me, seems like they can do a lot of multitasking on the Matrix, even if the sprites themselves aren't that tough.

Deckers seem better suited "realworld" applications in my opinion although I'm not sure why, its just the impression I get. Like you'd use a decker for taking out automated defenses or opening doors. I guess because they get bonuses from thier decks they have more raw power. Is this an accurate assessment?

I haven't even gotten started on magic yet, but was thinking of making a magical assassin. What's better magic ninja or cyber ninja?

PierreTheMime
Dec 9, 2004

Hero of hormagaunts everywhere!


whoda thunkit posted:

I haven't even gotten started on magic yet, but was thinking of making a magical assassin. What's better magic ninja or cyber ninja?

Cyberninjas tend to be better out-of-the-gate provided you've heavily invested in 'ware. Magicninjas are still strong but progress much faster and have a more flexible limit to how great they can be.

Essence and nuyen are the dual-currency of cybered characters and are the great limiter for Cyberninjas. You'll eventually be shelling out tons of nuyen to swap a part for the deltaware version of the same thing to give you that tiny shred of self back needed cram more metal in. Magicninjas instead spend karma for their upgrades and aside from the occasional initiation trial there are no downsides to becoming stronger. They also tend to heal better and have better luck with interacting with sapient beings (Social Limit takes how much of a cybered freak you are into account).

Essentially cybered fighters start strong but ramp up slow and with a hard cap to their expansion whereas magic fighters start weaker but ramp up fast and eventually greatly outclass technology.

dirtycajun
Aug 27, 2004

SUCKING DICKS AND SQUEEZING TITTIES

PierreTheMime posted:

Cyberninjas tend to be better out-of-the-gate provided you've heavily invested in 'ware. Magicninjas are still strong but progress much faster and have a more flexible limit to how great they can be.

Essence and nuyen are the dual-currency of cybered characters and are the great limiter for Cyberninjas. You'll eventually be shelling out tons of nuyen to swap a part for the deltaware version of the same thing to give you that tiny shred of self back needed cram more metal in. Magicninjas instead spend karma for their upgrades and aside from the occasional initiation trial there are no downsides to becoming stronger. They also tend to heal better and have better luck with interacting with sapient beings (Social Limit takes how much of a cybered freak you are into account).

Essentially cybered fighters start strong but ramp up slow and with a hard cap to their expansion whereas magic fighters start weaker but ramp up fast and eventually greatly outclass technology.

Or make something that uses both!

code:
Human Street Sam/Adept

Attributes A
Resources B
Metatype D
Magic C
Skills E


Attributes:
Body 5 (8)
Agilitiy 6 (9)
Reaction 5 (7)
Strength 3
Willpower 3
Logic 1
Intuition 5
Charisma 4
Edge 2
Essence 4
Magic 7 (5)


Qualities:
Catlike 7
Exceptional Magic 14
Bonded Weapon Foci 9
Qi Foci x1 2
Resources (4) 4
Negative Qualities -11



Skills:
Exotic Weapon 6
Sneaking (Urban) 6 (11)
Gymnastics 3
Perception (urban) 3 (6)


Adept Abilities Power Points 5:
Improved Ability: Agility (3) 3
Comat Sense (1) .5
Critical Strike (monowhip) .5
Adrenaline Rush (4) 1
Improved Accuracy (monowhip) foci


Gear (Cyberware):
Synaptic Booster (2) 1
Bone Density (3) .9
Reflex Recorder (Sneaking) .1
Total Essense Cost: 2
Total Nuyen Cost: 219,000

Gear (Weapons):
Monofilament whip
+Weapon foci force (3)
Total nuyen Cost: 31,000

Gear (Armor):
Chameleon Suit
+Thermal Dampening 3
+ Chemical Seal
Lined Coat
Total Nuyen: 7,100

Gear (Helmet):
+Thermographic Vision
+Vision Enhancement (3)
Total Nuyen Cost: 2,100

Gear (Headphones [5]):
+Audio Enhancement (3)
Total Nuyen Cost: 1,750

Gear (Commlink):
Transys Avalon
+Sim Module
Total Nuyen Cost: 5,100

Gear (IDs):
Fake SIN (4)
Fake Liscense For Chameleon Suit(4)
Total Nuyen Cost: 10,800

Gear (Qi Foci):
Qi Foci enhanced accuracy
Total Nuyen Cost: 3,000

Gear (Climbing):
Climbing Gear
Rappelling Gloves
Microwire 100m
Grapple Gun
Total Nuyen Cost: 800

Gear (Breathing):
Respirator (5)
Total Nuyen Cost: 250

Lifestyle:
Squatter x1 month
Total Nuyen Cost: 500

3600 Nuyen leftover

ProfessorCirno
Feb 17, 2011

The strongest! The smartest! The rightest!


Hypha posted:

What is the correct way to style a campaign? I was under the impression that combat was something to avoid unless the odds are stacked heavily in your favour. A parallel I am thinking of is like Thief, where entering combat usually meant you restarted. The example scenario in the quick rules though heavily implies combat will be involved and much of the rules involve combat. I thought combat was this hyper lethal thing or are just the more interesting scenarios the ones which put combat roles more to the side?

Kai Tave posted:

The answer is there is no right answer. Which is a lovely non-answer but the truth of the matter is "should Shadowrun be a game of stealthy, low-profile operators ghosting through security and slipping out like the wind, careful not to trigger a single alarm or alert a single guard or you might as well consider the mission blown or should I bring the plastic explosives or the missile launcher, gently caress it I'll bring both" is a debate (and frequently an argument) that has gone on at least since I was first into Shadowrun which is coming up on 15 years and three editions ago now.

Whether combat is a good idea is going to depend heavily on the GM, the sort of game he's interested in running, and possibly how clever/sadistic the GM is feeling. Combat in Shadowrun can be dangerous, especially to characters not crunched for maximum killosity, but it's not even so much "this one particular fight might be the end of you" as "if you go around shooting the poo poo out of things you can expect the situation to escalate rapidly." Killing average corp security jockeys may not present a terrific challenge, but dealing with an elite corporate rapid response team could be a serious threat. Start a running gun battle in the middle of the city and you can expect Lone Star or Knight Errant to start deploying SWAT teams once you hit four stars.

It's often a good idea not to go in guns blazing unless your aim is wanton destruction; discretion isn't just safer, it's also cheaper and a lot of 'runners are motivated by the bottom line. But if a fight breaks out it shouldn't be the end of the world, and having some crazy gunfights isn't a guaranteed recipe for instant character death provided they're doing sensible things like wearing armor, taking cover, looking for opportunities to fight dirty, making use of things like covering fire, etc.

Broadly speaking, Shadowrun tends to fall into two camps. "Mirrorshades" is the name for Shadowrun games or players that like to play as cool, cold hearted professionals, who are in it for the money. They sperg out a lot of tactical - and venture into tacticool - bullshit and come up with the DM vs Players cold war you see occasionally. "Pink Mohawk" is for games or players that are the opposite - they're loud, proud, and full of attitude. They're the ones who tend to like the kinda dumb and super cheesy old edition slang. The former group is more likely to vomit out words like "Verisimilitude" and "simulation of the setting" in terms of Shadowrun, the later group is more likely to yell "HO CHUMMER" and attach a minigun to their van.

A lot of conflict in 5e from what I've seen is basically from mirrorshades throwing a bit whiny bitch fit that 5e isn't just catering to them. SR4 made a lot of changes and is sort of the bizarro odd one out in Shadowrun, and SR5 is trying to bridge the gap, but bow howdy are they getting their poo poo in a bunch over the thought of the rules not being a perfect 1:1 with the game setting (not that it ever was before, much less in their own edition of choice).

Also I am biased towards pink mohawk so take all this with some salt.

While "how many fights should I have" doesn't fall directly into this, overall campaign building should note what your players want from the game. If they're in this to be 80's-esque semi-anti-heros who know they could make more money doing something else but more just want to stick it to the man, the campaign would run very differently from a group of consummate professionals who are in this for the cold hard cash. The former is more likely to have big, bombastic fights then the latter, while the latter is more likely to have small, localized fights (if not just assassinations).

ProfessorCirno
Feb 17, 2011

The strongest! The smartest! The rightest!


Adepts vs sammies:

In general I honestly thing sammies will still have the upper hand throughout the game. The big difference is that skills go much higher now and 'ware costs more; previously, adepts would begin much weaker then sammies due to the cost of Magic ad due to starting the game at more or less max skills. The Priority system makes the two far more balanced; sammies want high Resources, adepts want high Magic. Sammies are no longer capped in karma - skills go higher then 6. Beyond that, 'ware and adept powers aren't straight down the same; sammies tend to be better at increasing their core physical stats, adepts are better at increasing initiative; sammies get armor faster and better, adepts improve their dodging better; etc. I think the angst over cyber samurai is that in 4e they were cybergods capable of fulfilling any role, and then fulfilling another role alongside it. SR5 is like previous Shadowrun editions - you have an archtype. An archtype. If you try to do everything with your sammie, yeah, you're gonna fall behind. If you focus exclusively on being a gunbunny, I think you'll end up doing pretty drat well for yourself, and not falling behind the adept who has always had to specialize.

Deckers vs technomancers:

Deckers leave technomancers far behind. Honestly it's the same problem as 4e. Technomancer abilities simply aren't that good, and they need karma for all their upgrades; nuyen is near useless for them. Deckers on the other hand improve with both karma AND nuyen, and they don't need as many skills as technomancers have. Decks are all but guaranteed to be better the living personas. And decks can even do a ton of poo poo now that technomancers couldn't, like slave devices or run programs.

Right now the only major niche I see for technomancer is "secondary decker," which is a very poor niche altogether.

Cyclomatic
May 29, 2012


I've not really gotten a grip on the rules yet, but is the technomacner rigger option a viable one or just a bad version of a rigger?

Mystic Mongol
Jan 5, 2007


You're the right kind of dreamer to release my inner fantasy.
The invincible winner, and you know that you were born to be!

After initiating several times technomancer riggers are pretty good.

Before initiating at all I'm pretty sure they're literally incapable of rigging.

Nyaa
Jan 7, 2010

What's so fun about playing with yourself?

Mystic Mongol posted:

Before initiating at all I'm pretty sure they're literally incapable of rigging.
Anyone is good after initiating.

I think it's only worth mention if the technomancer is actually better than actual rigger after initiating.

They suck at rigging is worth mentioning though.

Mystic Mongol
Jan 5, 2007


You're the right kind of dreamer to release my inner fantasy.
The invincible winner, and you know that you were born to be!

They can initiate (well, submerge) three times, each time getting a rank in a fake Vehicle Control Rig. So a thrice initiated technomancer has a virtual 200,000 nuyen piece of availability 15 ware. Also the rig would cost 3 essence.

So once they've initiated three times, they're probably a better hacker/rigger than any traditional hacker/rigger build. Plus, because a technomancer has nothing much to spend the money on, they could have a small fleet of drones. And because they don't have a Rigger Control Console or a Deck, replacing slash reinforcing their drone army. But because you can't start submerged (right?) a starting technomancer can't be a rigger at all.

Kai Tave
Jul 2, 2012


ProfessorCirno posted:

While "how many fights should I have" doesn't fall directly into this, overall campaign building should note what your players want from the game. If they're in this to be 80's-esque semi-anti-heros who know they could make more money doing something else but more just want to stick it to the man, the campaign would run very differently from a group of consummate professionals who are in this for the cold hard cash. The former is more likely to have big, bombastic fights then the latter, while the latter is more likely to have small, localized fights (if not just assassinations).

It's possible to cross the streams too. In children overboard's game we're in the middle of pulling off a dataheist against an Ares subsidiary. The planning and infiltration were (mostly) pretty mirrorshades in spirit...a combination of free-jumping onto the roof of the building from an overhead tourist monorail after some magically-enhanced fast talking to clear the car of passengers, some grappling gun action to help get the less athletic hacker in with the rest of us, and a conveniently timed distraction in a nearby shopping complex to get the guards focused on other things while we sneak in, grab what we came for (and maybe some extra goodies on the side), and get out.

Currently the shopping complex is on fire, a panicked mob of proud firearm owners have had a brutal shootout with panicking security forces and there are probably at least a dozen fatalities, the data-hub is filling up with dangerous hyperfreon gas after a tased security nerd collided with some OSHA non-compliant coolant ducts, we have a rescued sasquatch in tow after freeing it from a live-fire weapons testing range where we liberated a prototype assault rifle and a stock of vicious corrosive chemical rounds, and we have two HRT teams inbound by helicopter, one of which is likely to be eaten by the devil rats we released from the testing range's cages before gluing door shut behind us. Oh, and the lobby's security turrets are currently being cleared with grenades by the guy who charged an Firewatch sergeant equipped with an Ares Alpha using nothing but a survival knife and barely came out on top.

But we did get the data we came for which means that technically we've hit all of our primary objectives.

ProfessorCirno
Feb 17, 2011

The strongest! The smartest! The rightest!


So, I got a question: What's going on with Horizon?

Last I checked their whole Consensus program was starting to get dramatically out of hand, and the Dawkins Group (their specops squad that every corporation and every country must have) was beginning to target Jackpoint and it's Runners. SR5's core book has close to no fluff. I know it was hinted that Horizon had some horrible dark secret, and I assume it wasn't "they have an organization of terrifyingly effective social adepts" or "their corporate culture is really creepy."

dirtycajun
Aug 27, 2004

SUCKING DICKS AND SQUEEZING TITTIES

Kai Tave posted:

It's possible to cross the streams too. In children overboard's game we're in the middle of pulling off a dataheist against an Ares subsidiary. The planning and infiltration were (mostly) pretty mirrorshades in spirit...a combination of free-jumping onto the roof of the building from an overhead tourist monorail after some magically-enhanced fast talking to clear the car of passengers, some grappling gun action to help get the less athletic hacker in with the rest of us, and a conveniently timed distraction in a nearby shopping complex to get the guards focused on other things while we sneak in, grab what we came for (and maybe some extra goodies on the side), and get out.

Currently the shopping complex is on fire, a panicked mob of proud firearm owners have had a brutal shootout with panicking security forces and there are probably at least a dozen fatalities, the data-hub is filling up with dangerous hyperfreon gas after a tased security nerd collided with some OSHA non-compliant coolant ducts, we have a rescued sasquatch in tow after freeing it from a live-fire weapons testing range where we liberated a prototype assault rifle and a stock of vicious corrosive chemical rounds, and we have two HRT teams inbound by helicopter, one of which is likely to be eaten by the devil rats we released from the testing range's cages before gluing door shut behind us. Oh, and the lobby's security turrets are currently being cleared with grenades by the guy who charged an Firewatch sergeant equipped with an Ares Alpha using nothing but a survival knife and barely came out on top.

But we did get the data we came for which means that technically we've hit all of our primary objectives.

That is beautiful and everyone involved should feel pride in a run well done.

Kai Tave
Jul 2, 2012


That was actually the groundwork job. The actual job that we did this one to get intel for is extracting a high-value asset off of an inbound prisoner transport coming in by sea. So imagine all of this happening again in an enclosed space surrounded by the ocean. At least with the IFF security codes we're significantly less likely to be shot at by automated point-defense guns as we board.

Remmon
Dec 9, 2011


Personally I manage having both in a single game by offering corp and gang/mafia jobs. Going up against corps the players are expected to use the mirror shades approach. In and out with minimal fuss and use gel/tasers on any security that they can't get around. Most of these jobs will offer a bonus if no alarms are sounded or if the incident doesn't make the news.

On the other side then you've got the 'gang/mafia' jobs which are typically are low security areas and either target the SINless. The players are expected to cause a giant mess, preferably one just short of corporate security bringing in an army to end the riots.

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Zereth
Jul 8, 2003



I remember one game (that never went anywhere) where we were strongly considering funding a very, very pink mohawk group to draw attention off our mirroshades jobs.

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