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Crasical posted:Where do you think that Shadowrunners should be sitting, dice-pool wise? About equivalent to elite corpsec? Less? More? People ask this question a lot and it always confuses me. It's going to be based on whatever your group is comfortable with and it can only really crop up if everybody is making their characters in a total vaccuum. I mean what Ron said holds since if you know nothing about the other characters you have to assume the baseline is the highest you can get through base states which is 12 or so. Still figure out what the GM and other players have in mind or somebody's going to have a Bad Time.
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Nov 14, 2015 05:33
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Baseline max dicepool for a normal human out of chargen with nothing else is 12 (6 attribute, 6 skill points). That makes a good "Legitimately Better Then Most." From there naturally it can be boosted further through various augmentations, but it's sorta...unnecessary. At a certain point extra successes won't actually mean much. If you're sneaking, you just gotta beat the threshold; anything above makes you sneak real cool but mechanically doesn't do much. Remember that having a skill at 12 makes you flat out one of the best of the best in the world, which would put a dice pool of 15 (attribute 4) at "special forces good." I think there are two reasons for the at-times schizophrenic focus on how hard to specialize. For starters, chargen pushes for it. The economy of karma means it costs increasingly more to put more points into something, which means the more you can boost anything without paying those costs, the more valuable it is. This means that, in chargen, where you don't really use karma, you're strongly encouraged to go full peaks and valleys. The more points you put into a single thing in chargen, the more karma you potentially save in the future. It what makes Jack of All Trades such a valuable quality; you push ffor specialization in chargen, then after chargen you enjoy your discount on widening your skills. The other thing is the varying difficulties. Most of the time you're up against security devices. Those are gonna by and large roll DRx2. Except the max device rating is 6 - and that's the max rating. The average is 3, meaning it's rolling 6 against you. In general, the average requirement for successes is 3, 4 for very difficult situations. A dice pool of 12 will on average hit 4 successes; thus making it a great place for being "specialized." Right until it's not, like Hosts, where even your standard local corp office Host might start at a dice pool of 12 against you and goes up depending on the spider in charge. So you're typically ok with 12...until you aren't. So personally? Consider the following. With a dice pool of 9, against a TN of 3 successes needed, you'll hit it more then 50% but less then 75% of the time. Against a TN of 4, it drops to less then 50%. With a dice pool of 12, you got better then 75% chances each time to hit TN 3, and that same between 50-75% chance to hit TN 4. At a dice pool of 15, failures to a TN of 3 are extremely rare, and you'll succeed at TN4 far more often then fail. That tells me that a dice pool of 6 is the low end, a dice pool of 9 is "mostly ok," a dice pool of 12 is "substantially good," and a dice pool of 15 is "costly specialization." Once you go past a dice pool of 15 you are squarely in "maybe one of the best of the best" territory. Which, you know, kinda fits. Most Runners will want to roll with an augmented agility close to 6, given it's the god stat, and one point in sneaking with a specialization in urban gives you 9 - which represents someone who's mostly ok at it, it's not their thing but they aren't garbage. Any ol' troll who wants to be good at talking can put 6 points in negotiation and/or persuasion, and then even if their charisma is capped at 4, that gives then 10-12 depending on specialization - which is right in "substantially good" territory. Smack on some adept powers, a mage spell, or some pheremones, and you can hit 15. It's also important to note that there are in most cases limited returns. One more die is not worth the same no matter what. Going from 6 dice to 7 dice increases your probability of success against TN 3 far, far more then going from 15-16 (going off vague calculations, going from 6-7 gives ~11% higher chances of success, going from 15-16 gives 2%). The only real time this isn't true is in combat, specifically because you can use multiple attacks to split your pool. Sure, rolling 20 dice to hit someone with a dodge pool of 6 is almost completely guaranteed...but each extra hit is worth only 1P. Instead, you could roll 10 and 10 against them to hit twice, or to hit two different dudes (though here, you'd be better served by rolling with a shotty). This is generally where adepts want to look, with their ability to stack a single skill sky high, which is why I tend to lean towards high Edge adepts for dual pistoleers (though there is also something to be said about sammies with two cyberarms and gyros going double SMGs on full auto to reduce dodge pools to a nonexistent point)
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Nov 14, 2015 12:28
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Hi, sorry if this is something that gets asked here a lot but this thread is huge and I've only managed to chew through a little. I want to start playing Shadowrun but the rules and "If you aren't throwing 15 dice you're poo poo" attitude kinda make me worried, as I'm not confident I can generate a 'good' character my first time. I'm also not sure where to find a game to join (I live in Japan and no one here plays TTRPGs) so I was considering trying to join Reddit's Runnerhub thing and playing there, but again I'm not sure if they want to be weighed down by a new player. Are there any places that run online games to introduce players, or maybe a SA IRC channel for Shadowrun where I can ask tons of dumb questions to Also, what is the general opinion on Runnerhub? Bunch of weird shitheads or a legit cool thing?
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Nov 26, 2015 04:33
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I posted above my opinion regarding the sorta dice pools needed to do stuff, but I know absolutely nothing about shadownet or runnerhub, other then that most people on this thread prefer the former over the later. Also I was under the impression that at one point Shadowrun was decently popular in Japan at least insofar as ttgs go, but that was awhile back. I also sadly have no idea how to connect with players there; only visited it it briefly one or two times hahaha.
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Nov 26, 2015 04:45
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Wrr posted:Hi, sorry if this is something that gets asked here a lot but this thread is huge and I've only managed to chew through a little. #shadowrun on SynIRC is where we hang out, and we're always up for character creation advice/threats. Most goons play on ShadowNET, rather than Runnerhub, since it only has a few weird shitheads.
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Nov 26, 2015 08:26
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^^^ What he said. Come aboard. We've had several new folks shown up lately and they haven't fled. Yet.
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Nov 27, 2015 01:24
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Also ShadowNET at least don't seem to mind new players.
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Nov 29, 2015 02:38
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Yeah, pretty much all of the gm's I've played with have been really helpful in learning the system . And the weirder characters don't really do much to make them weird in actual play, surprisingly.
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Nov 29, 2015 02:52
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Yeah, i tell horror stories of 17 year old foxgirls but in game she's just the person that mind controls guards and makes them throw their guns off the building/throw themselves off the building depending on how supervised she is at the moment. The thing with a dog/fox/generic furry snout is just the decker that I need to shut down various bullshit so I can put hole in man/vehicle/wall. Also, accommodating GMs, you have to schedule a private run to get anything at availability 20 or higher or has "milspec" in the name. I just got cleared to go a'huntin' for that burst fire missile launcher.
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Nov 29, 2015 04:15
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Great, hopefully I'll be able to find a game on ShadowNET that isn't happening at 4am my time. So, like, is this character. . . poo poo? https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8_fhKVnoTc4VGoxc2RKcEQ4YXM/view My friend was teaching English to a bunch of junior high school kids here and one was trying to be tough with the sentence "May I you swim in the pollution pool?", which sounded pretty punk and figured it would make a good runner name. Most of the gear selection came from a page on RunnerHub's wiki where they laid out the 'essentials' for a runner. I don't know how accurate it is but it made it way easier for me to make this first character. All that gear is to choose from is really overwhelming at first!
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Nov 30, 2015 06:05
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That guide is fairly useful but in general, if it costs under 100 nuyen I've never really seen a gm give a poo poo. Field medicine is rarely useful on the net and almost always handled by a rating 6 medkit. Instead of pistols I'd recommend just going automatics and using machine pistols. This means you can also use ARs if needs be. Put two of those points to buy Heavy Weapons 1 (Grenade launcher+2) which means an ares alpha is a good all around gun if you need to mohawk.(And even if you need to stealth. Put a silencer with gel rounds and less lethal grenades like flashbangs and chem nades. You don't have a way to boost your initiative easily, especially with low edge. I'd use some jazz in the meantime and find a way to free up 10 karma and buy edge 1>2. The fluff is good but a connection 1 fixer is going to make it really hard to acquire gear. Most folks spend the full 7 points on the fixer (usually loyalty 2/connection 5 or loyalty 3/connection 4. Some loyalty 4/connection 3. Loyalty 1/Connection 6 is just waiting for a major backstab. I'll probably have more thoughts on it in the morning but "troll shootman" is a solid starter pc, keep in mind though, in-game racism is a thing that's done widely by shadownet gms, so your dude is going to get harassed by the popo disproportionately, especially going through checkpoints. If you get on #shadowrun on irc.synirc.net we can probably help you more, that's also where the shadownet goons hangout.
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Nov 30, 2015 07:02
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In addition to the above, it's worth pointing out that if you're going by standard chargen rules your Dermal Plating 4 exceeds the availability cap (unless it's used, in which case you've calculated your Essence incorrectly). If you can possibly free up an extra 6k somewhere I'd swap it out for some Aluminum Bone Lacing, which is just as protective but will cost you less Essence and make your unarmed attacks actually threatening (if they hit). You can also take the lacing as 'used'/Omegaware for only 1.5k nuyen over the 12k you've got in dermal plating. Also I think you might want to very strongly consider being "uncouth" in roleplaying terms without actually being Uncouth in game mechanic terms- at the moment your decentish (for a Troll) Charisma and fast-talking ability is only going to be of very limited use because you're completely incapable of blending in socially. And are probably going to be called upon to make frequent tests (that you'll automatically fail, or at best have 1-2 dice on) to avoid calling people racial slurs. Plus you'll get a couple of skill points back from the no longer double-cost Con and Intimidation! I'd be similarly wary about the Uneducated quality, since your character seems to have a long term interest in mechanics and that quality will be a real barrier to improvement down the road. A character who grew up in an orphanage until they were 16 might have all sorts of personal and behavioral issues, but they also presumably would have had access to schooling and even if that schooling was of poor quality, by Shadowrun standards you probably wouldn't really be Uneducated. (Basically both of those qualities are really limiting and harsh for the points they provide, and I don't think they jive with the background you've provided- while the character may have been quite underprivileged compared to the average SINner, they also were in a situation where they should have been socialized and had access to some basic public and educational services. I'd suggest finding the Karma via other qualities.)
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Nov 30, 2015 09:28
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Addictions are a nice goto 
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Nov 30, 2015 17:17
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You also probably have 2 edge unless I'm missing something. Trolls start with 1, and the worst metatype priority gives them 1 point to put into special stats (magic or edge). Since you don't have magic, it goes to Edge, bringing you up to 2.
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Nov 30, 2015 18:58
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Prejudice is always a fun thing to pick.
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Nov 30, 2015 20:01
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Okay, I've taken your advice and made some changes. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8_fhKVnoTc4U1Z3YVpobHVLZVU/view?usp=sharing R2! I swapped out the pistol for a machine pistol (kept a silencer for it, do I need it?) and the old AK for a Ares Alpha. I imagine it must be huge since it has a 42 round magazine and a 6 round grenade launcher on it. Good thing I'm a troll! I bought a handful of random grenades since I don't really know what is the best to buy. As for ammo, do I absolutely need 100% APDS ammo or can I get by with only two full mags (84 bullets!) of the stuff and the rest be normal ammo? That stuff is really expensive. I dropped the two fluff contacts and pumped up ol' Masa (who is based off a real old man I know, who does drive his motorcycle through his restaurant). I didn't realize that a contact rating of 1 meant they will only ever betray me, but I guess that must be GMs seeing an open door and walking through it. I used 10 karma to bump up my edge to 2 and changed my qualities. I was originally thinking of going for prejudice (Humanis) but I figured that would be like "Prejudice (Nazis)" in that it isn't really to crazy to hate them. But, I guess if I'm radical (justified by backstory) then it would be pretty negative. Addiction to jazz fits with fluff and the fact that I'll be staying hosed up on jazz to help boost my initiative, which again, I didn't realize was that huge of a deal. I guess Shadowrun is much more lethal and "whoever goes first wins" sorta game? Picked up some bone lacing and striking calluses as well. Invested points into unarmed and heavy weapons to fit these new weapons. I'm not 100% attached to my positive qualities either, I just took them cause they sounded fun in a fluff kind of way, but if there are obvious better choices my ears are open. As for licenses, is my situation good with them? Do I need separate licenses for all of my guns? Do I reeeeally need a driver's license (or my scoot-scoot for that matter)? Things are drat expensive. You know I don't think I ever actually had fun making characters like this when I played D&D! edit-- Do I actually need any points in pilot (groundcraft) if I'm not going to be maxing it out or being a rigger? The pilot programs on the groundcraft itself would be better right? Wrr fucked around with this message at 03:59 on Dec 1, 2015 |
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Dec 1, 2015 03:45
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Will comment more later, but no, while its highly advisable to have some points in pilot ground its entirely possible to go without (unlike, say, stealth/athletics stuff which every runner will have to roll in a critical situation at least once.)
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Dec 2, 2015 11:54
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Is there any way to pull off the 'Sniper on another building picking off guards and watching poo poo' thing? Ways to see + shoot through walls? Or should I stick to a rigger who doesn't even go directly into where they're making runs?
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Dec 2, 2015 13:48
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KittyEmpress posted:Is there any way to pull off the 'Sniper on another building picking off guards and watching poo poo' thing? Ways to see + shoot through walls? Or should I stick to a rigger who doesn't even go directly into where they're making runs? Radar Sensor cyberware lets you see through wall, get a high damage sniper rifle with APDS or AV rounds and you should be fine.
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Dec 2, 2015 14:26
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Ronwayne posted:Will comment more later, but no, while its highly advisable to have some points in pilot ground its entirely possible to go without (unlike, say, stealth/athletics stuff which every runner will have to roll in a critical situation at least once.) Thanks. I submitted my sheet to the ShadowNET char-gen section and it's already got two upvotes. Which is. . . good? Also, MAN I always knew Reddit had a poo poo interface but after making an account (felt dirty) I was opened up to a whole new world. I think I spent a half-hour trying to get rid of all those sub-reditts they automatically subscribed me to. gently caress that place.
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Dec 3, 2015 00:16
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Would someone be willing to help me build a really good sniper? I'd like to be able to do something besides just snipe, but the character's background as is is literally 'corps black ops sniper who got burnt and their whole life erased from existing'.
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Dec 3, 2015 02:00
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things I recommend getting off the top of my head: Ghillie suit(urban), to hold you over until you can get an RPC cloak while not being too expensive. Gecko Gloves(and some gymnastics dice), because less people are gonna ask questions about your sniper rifle if you find an alleyway to climb up in. Plenty of APDS for dat triple shot
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Dec 3, 2015 03:25
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I just finished reading Neuromancer and Count Zero and I'm riding high on cyberpunk settings real friggin hard. Does Shadowrun fulfill my Gibson fantasies because Cyberpunk 2020 is dead/bad?
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Dec 3, 2015 04:21
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Mortimer posted:I just finished reading Neuromancer and Count Zero and I'm riding high on cyberpunk settings real friggin hard. It's the best cyberpunk game I've ever played! It's the only cyberpunk game I've played.
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Dec 3, 2015 07:26
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Which skills would be good to pick up if I want my character to have been a butler before becoming a runner, including knowledge skills? I'm thinking about making it an adept too so I could boost relevant things and pick powers that fit with the theme. Disappointingly enough I can't find anything that really fits with butlers or any specific service industry which is kinda strange if you think about it, considering the setting.Crasical posted:It's the best cyberpunk game I've ever played! 
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Dec 3, 2015 17:20
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 Perception, negotiation? Etiquette and knowledge skills related to your past employer's seedier side. Who might he or she have dealt with for less-than-savory work?
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Dec 3, 2015 22:35
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I see, thanks. I was kinda hoping for something like craft: butlering or the equivalent. Maybe I've spent too much time reading other rulebooks.
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Dec 3, 2015 23:07
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I'm pretty sure there are generic Artisan and Profession skill on the list somewhere, but good luck leveraging them. As others have said, I'd say etiquette is your core skill. Speaking generally of service jobs there aren't a lot of gamable systems to represent them. Most people who excel at service jobs do so because they have the correct temperament. It requires a combination of loyalty, patience, and even temper - most of which is just represented by higher than normal Willpower. People who are good at their jobs leverage knowledge or additional skills they can apply to their profession. Butlers are more than just servants. They're also managers. Leadership is justifiable here. A butler typically managers the mundane affairs of their employers, so Negotiation works, too. If the character is particularly severe or kind of an rear end in a top hat, Intimidation. In a pinch a butler is probably required to defend their employer's life, since they have close access. I'm not saying you need to gear up on combat skills here (or maybe you can if you want to) but that it's pretty easy to justify basic proficiency with pistols or melee weapons. I'm sure other secondary skills also work here. Being able to repair the plumbing or electronics without hiring a contractor could be valuable. Specialized knowledges represent years of experience. In my games I usually just let my players take Professional Knowledge (Butler) and just explain how their experience is relevant but if your GM is more strict you might consider knowledges on a variety of topics from law, to books, to the names and titles of other rich people.
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Dec 3, 2015 23:15
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Ah, that makes a lot more sense than what I was planning. Thank you. But something like, for example, ironing a suit would use an active skill, right?
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Dec 3, 2015 23:22
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Poil posted:Ah, that makes a lot more sense than what I was planning. Thank you. Honestly 'ironing a suit', along with 'giving a good shave' or 'knowing how to get a stain out of a wine-soaked rug' probably wouldn't require any skill use. If you were at my table I'd know that you wanted your butler-backstory to matter, so I'd basically ask two questions: 1.) Is it important that you be able to differentiate yourself from other, non-butler character? In that case I would just say you know how to do that stuff and they don't, no roll required. It's just character flair. 2.)Is it important that your ability to perform domestic chores have an impact on the game? If so I'd try to fold it into other skills. Being able to iron a suit might not matter in most practical situations but if you were trying to demonstrate your worth or show up to a dinner party in appropriate attire, I'd call it an Etiquette check. Another possibility is to roll it into a knowledge skill or two and see if the GM will let you teamwork yourself. E.g., Knowledge (Butler) might not solve most of your problems but it might give you bonuses on appropriate actions. Shadowrun, like a lot of 90's and 00's "crunchy" games is concerned with results-focused gameplay as opposed to means-focused gameplay (like Fate). Skills that don't interact with the game's intended results are generally moved to the wayside. One doesn't solve a problem with suit-ironing or stain-busting, they solve it with Etiquette or Negotiation or Chemistry with a specialty in Stains. The how of what a skill represents is largely left up to the player outside of highly granular situations like combat. EDIT: Or again, if you were at my table, I'd let you take an Etiquette specialty in (Butler) and give you the +2 die bonus any time you could describe how your butler-ing was relevant, e.g., most of the time. A stingier GM might say that (Butler) is too broad for a specialty but frankly I'd rather give you the hook to play with.
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Dec 3, 2015 23:35
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Mortimer posted:I just finished reading Neuromancer and Count Zero and I'm riding high on cyberpunk settings real friggin hard. If you want to hack the gibson with your Ono-Sendai while forcing hot-doggers to pull a wilson, yeah it scratches that itch. Still pretty much the only cyberpunk game out there.
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Dec 3, 2015 23:51
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So how many of us are going to switch to CP-2020 in 4 years?
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Dec 4, 2015 00:23
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Knowledge skills should honestly cover most butlerin'
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Dec 4, 2015 00:36
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Thanks again for the help. Here are the powers I've thought about using. I... have a feeling they're not optimal or good in any way but they do fit the theme, mostly. code: The asterisks are to mark which powers have their cost halved with Speaker's Way (it seemed the best fit by far). My idea is someone who is cool, calm and collected regardless of what happens.
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Dec 4, 2015 15:20
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A lot of that stuff could potentially be replaced by non-invasion gear (aka non-'ware). Contacts can hold low-light vision, motion sense or ultrasound can come from sensors, etc. Adept Ways tend to be extremely expensive for what you get. I've been staring at them from every which angle I can, and to be honest, I'm still unsold on them being a good value. You've got a lot of utility powers which isn't bad, but - and this is going off me personally - I prefer to save them for qi foci. If you don't have a mentor spirit, get one. They are 1000% worth it for any magic character ever. They own bones. All the bones.
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Dec 5, 2015 06:15
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Hillarity: Go for Peacemaker. Both the bonuses and the disadvantages work well with your fluff.
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Dec 5, 2015 07:05
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I just picked things that I thought my character would pick and try and avoid just loading up with combat powers as usual. How do adepts pick their powers fluffwise anyway? Mages can just decide to learn spells but how do adepts learn things? But I did switch out Sustenance and Motion Sense for 3 ranks of Kinesics. Lots of more work to see if I can end up with something playable however. Ways seem worth it to me. Raising magic to 7 for one more power point is 35 karma while I saved 1.25 power points from the discount for 20 karma. Granted I would initiate before raising magic and while the first two initiations would be cheaper karma to power point ratio the third would be about the same. Later on at 8 magic I'll get another 0.25-0.5 power point extra. But I think it's more of a long term thing that assumes you'll get enough karma for it and you plan to prioritize magic over foci, skills and stats. Yeah I normally save utility I don't use as often for foci. Peacemaker would be amusing yes. It's very tempting. There is a mentor spirit that gives +2 to composure tests which would fit but unfortunately it's the Berserker. Which would be hilarious too but probably wouldn't fit too well. Hmmm, Wise Warrior seems like a decent option too if renamed Duty maybe. That or Peacemaker. Poil fucked around with this message at 12:51 on Dec 5, 2015 |
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Dec 5, 2015 11:43
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Adepts get their power however you the player want them to, fluff-wise. Maybe they meditate on it, maybe their mentor spirit teaches them, maybe they just watch a bunch of trids until they pick up doing their thing innately on accident, maybe they read about adept abilities on the Matrix and try them out until they figure them out - your call. Ways suffer from being way too expensive in chargen, when karma is more limited, and there's likely other advantages you might want. Remember, they only apply to the first point in a power. I'm not saying their bad or not worth it (Speaker's Way has, if I remember, some great metamagic), just that I've personally found a way to use them well. It's semi-official that they don't cost double after chargen like most qualities do as per the word of the freelancer who wrote them (so they'd work like Martial Arts), but that factoid isn't in the book or errata. If so, it's something you buy after you initiate some times.
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Dec 5, 2015 15:54
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ProfessorCirno posted:It's semi-official that they don't cost double after chargen like most qualities do as per the word of the freelancer who wrote them (so they'd work like Martial Arts), but that factoid isn't in the book or errata. If so, it's something you buy after you initiate some times. I really hate how so much of this game functions like a catholic canon debate 
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Dec 5, 2015 17:33
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Next question: What weapons are suitable for a butler? So far I've got a couple of points in unarmed and pistols from basic self defense training. But apart from the light pistol I picked up I'm not sure where to go later on. Maybe the best option is just to wait and see what happens but it would be nice to have a bit of a goal to work towards. When it comes to fighting butlers I can only think two, the first being of course Willikins from the Discworld but he's more of a street fighter and hardcore badass who takes on heavily armed dwarven assassins without breaking a sweat. The second being Walter from Hellsing but it's way too ridiculous as he goes full anime with a whole fist full of monofilament whips spraying blood everywhere. He does it in a very butler way though.ProfessorCirno posted:Adepts get their power however you the player want them to, fluff-wise. Maybe they meditate on it, maybe their mentor spirit teaches them, maybe they just watch a bunch of trids until they pick up doing their thing innately on accident, maybe they read about adept abilities on the Matrix and try them out until they figure them out - your call.
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Dec 6, 2015 00:15
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