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Chamale posted:No, the point is that if we try to combat "fascism" by immediately resorting to violence, it is too easy for legitimate political movements to be labelled as fascism and destroyed. Oh it has become scare quotes fascism now has it? It is sadly impossible given you and your handwringer ilk are all likely comfortable white liberals but I'd love to see how quickly scare quote equivocal fascism would become real fascism we have to fight right now if you and your community were targeted as enemies fascist thugs started down your streets. At the start of this thread fascist movements were clearly identified as doing highly provocative marches or open attacks against racial and sexual minorities and communities. However by implying the definition of fascism that needs to fought could be malleable and complaining a thread about the rise of fascism is not addressing the utterly moribund threat of Stalinism you are pushing a mantra of utter inaction that empowers monstrous people and leaves the vulnerable high and dry. Then of course you say in places like Russia where you can't equivocate away the dangers of fascism that things have gone too far and it'd be civil war so things are too late and welp nukes so nothing can be done internationally either. It honestly boggles my mind you handwringers can oppose the Jewish Londoners defending their community in the Battle of Cable when the exact same ideology of their attackers would commit genocide against millions of their coreligionists.
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Aug 11, 2013 10:03
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Yeah, the Handwringer Hivemind is just waiting on our time machine so we can go back and help Mosley win for the BUF. Why are you even posting? Go find some fascists and kick the poo poo out of them. We're waiting.
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Aug 11, 2013 10:33
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Crowsbeak posted:Also is it not arguable that fascism has its origins earlier? I mean just look at the forces in the Dreyfus trials. You had nationalist journals calling for a purification of France and the placing of their enemies in ovens. The Three Faces of Fascism discusses France in the 1890s, but Nolte's conclusion--that Fascism was a reaction to Marxism and in part models its violence on what it believed it saw in Communism--is not only controversial, when crudely expressed Nolte ends up kind of blaming Nazi war crimes on Stalinism. Also, Nolte's role in the historian-fight made him look like a massive douche, but that was 20 years later. Neither Right Nor Left is also about France, and I remember it being very good, but that was years ago, so I might be mistaken.
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Aug 11, 2013 10:50
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Unluckyimmortal posted:Yeah, the Handwringer Hivemind is just waiting on our time machine so we can go back and help Mosley win for the BUF. I'm sure your ability to hand wring and hope that fascism just blows over will serve us all well when the fascist start bombing mosques, torturing homosexuals and rounding up foreigners. Oh wait, they already are. And your ability to handwring at them seems to be doing nothing. Indeed, in a system that has found foreigners to be an easy scapegoat, has institutionalised corruption and racism in it's police force and a government that wants to do absolutely nothing about it it seems your handwringing is doing absolutely nothing but making you feel as if you've got the moral high ground. Thanks for that.
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Aug 11, 2013 11:14
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Gonzo McFee posted:I'm sure your ability to hand wring and hope that fascism just blows over will serve us all well when the fascist start bombing mosques, torturing homosexuals and rounding up foreigners.
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Aug 11, 2013 11:15
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Typo posted:Would you endorse similar usage of violence against Leninists? No we wouldn't, and before you try your dumb gotcha I'll just inform you of the fact that it's painfully obvious that you have no goddamn idea what fascism actually is beyond some vague "bad ideology" when you even try to make this comparison. Omi-Polari posted:What do you mean by valid political philosophy? Fascism is a political philosophy with a distinct and coherent set of ideas attached to it. It's suicidal, self-destructive, racist and murderous - it's all of these things. But they believe that murder is necessary in order to establish a better world. Killing is not an end to itself in fascism, it's a means to build a racially pure, homogeneous, unified and organic totalitarian state. They believe this is necessary in order to purge their national community of decadent and destructive foreign influences, and therefore make their nation better and the lives of their kinfolk better. It's a humanist political philosophy in a weird way, albeit a selective and exclusionary one. See the bolded part? This is where your understanding of fascism breaks down, because violence is quite literally an end in and of itself in fascist thought. If you want to I can start quiting Mussolini's "The Doctrine of Fascism" here. This is why fascism is uniquely toxic among political ideologies, and why there are no peaceful fascists. This is also why violent resistance is always morally acceptable against the fash, even if it might not be smart every time.
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Aug 11, 2013 11:23
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Typo posted:Would you endorse similar usage of violence against Leninists? Are Leninists currently bombing mosques, torturing homosexuals and rounding up foreigners? 
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Aug 11, 2013 11:24
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Gonzo McFee posted:I'm sure your ability to hand wring and hope that fascism just blows over will serve us all well when the fascist start bombing mosques, torturing homosexuals and rounding up foreigners.
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Aug 11, 2013 11:24
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Cerebral Bore posted:No we wouldn't, and before you try your dumb gotcha I'll just inform you of the fact that it's painfully obvious that you have no goddamn idea what fascism actually is beyond some vague "bad ideology" when you even try to make this comparison. If I simply switched every mentioning of Fascism with [Variants of Leninism:] an ideology which historically have killed people on par with what Fascists have, and the very same people advocating adolescent fantasies of righteous political violence will be up in arms about hypocritical liberals suppressing political movements. quote:See the bolded part? This is where your understanding of fascism breaks down, because violence is quite literally an end in and of itself in fascist thought. If you want to I can start quiting Mussolini's "The Doctrine of Fascism" here. quote:Are Leninists currently bombing mosques, torturing homosexuals and rounding up foreigners? Typo fucked around with this message at 11:33 on Aug 11, 2013 |
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Aug 11, 2013 11:29
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Typo posted:Would you endorse similar usage of violence against Leninists? Oh my loving god would you shut up. This is a thread about THE RETURN OF FASCISM IN EUROPE, unless you're going to argue that Leninist groups marching through the streets of Berlin, lynching the bourgeoisie as they go are just as big a threat to people RIGHT loving NOW as bigoted shits who are actually factually currently hurting people, then I'd say this derail is both massively tangential, and incredibly loving tedious to read through.
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Aug 11, 2013 11:30
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Typo posted:Ahhh that touched a nerve Given that liberals have always been far more enthusiastic about suppressing Leninist movements than they ever were about suppressing Fascism, I don't see what the comparison would accomplish except highlight why the liberal is a worthless ally in the struggle against the fash. Also all violence is morally equivalent, I guess. Stop the presses. Typo posted:I never posted that so... Did I say you did?
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Aug 11, 2013 11:33
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Holy poo poo this shouldn't be that complicated. Violence is an inherent part of fascism whereas the same cannot be said of communism, can we end the false equivalency now and move on?
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Aug 11, 2013 11:35
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Chamale posted:No, the point is that if we try to combat "fascism" by immediately resorting to violence, it is too easy for legitimate political movements to be labelled as fascism and destroyed. Only if your understanding of fascism is so thoroughly and uselessly facile that you think the definition of "fascism" is "any political organization which uses violence".
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Aug 11, 2013 11:44
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What's rather damning is that typo is so much a product of the liberal episteme that he cannot even recognize how it is limitting his ability to comprehend the subject matter here. When he says that he could replace any mention of fascist here with leninism, he thinks he is proving some kind of point because to him leninism and fascism are equally bad - anything that is an outsider to the current liberal episteme is wrong, and it's wrongness is based on exclusion rather than it's parts. Leninism and Fascism are equally bad, and therefore interchangable, because they are not liberalism. The differences between them are unimportant to typo, because he genuinely believes that any difference is immaterial - to him the defining point of fascism and any other non-liberal ideology is the fact that it is non-liberal, regardless of their respective internal characteristics. When he says "Would you advocate violence on Leninism?" he thinks he is creating some sort of catch-22 argument, because to him the contextual differences are not important. His world-view is entirely placed into "Liberal" and "Non-Liberal" camps, and everything from communism to fascism can be safely grouped together and put into the non-liberal camp. We roll our eyes because to many of us the difference between leninism and fascism is the difference between night and day - we recognize the intrinsic differences between a system that glorifies nationhood, racial-myth, and pre-capitalist legend and exclusion based humanism; and a system that advocates state transformation and post-capitalist classless reality. But neither of those systems is advocating status quo, cult of the individual, liberalism - and therefore to the man hedged firmly within the liberal world-view, in this case Typo, they are one and the same. On top of that his statement "would you advocate violence on Leninism" is based squarely in a liberal logic. This leading statement is presuming that if you are advocating specific violence, then you are advocating all violence - because violence itself is the subject, not the groups themselves. Violence is a personable, rather vile act with intense impacts on individuals and therefore is incredibly reprehensible to a modern liberal viewpoint. Advocating violence, any violence, is bad and equally terrible because all violence is equally bad. As soon as you commit violence, to the liberal, you have violated some fundamental rule to the liberal world-view - and if you're advocating organized violence tht's even worse, because now you're really assaulting the alter of individuality. But the statement goes deeper than that, because to the liberal leninism and fascism are directly equatable, as the difference between them is solely defined on "not-liberal" then any advocation of violence is an advocation for all violence. If fascism and leninism are indistinguishable then violence against all political movements must be the logical conclusion, because determining when violence is acceptable - and when it is reprehensible, is an impossible task. d3c0y2 fucked around with this message at 11:54 on Aug 11, 2013 |
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Aug 11, 2013 11:46
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Immigrant, second generation Leninist checking in. I do volunteer legal aid work for (mostly) proles and immigrants while studying full-time. I've been asked to join the IS(O) (lol) a number of times, once over dinner with a local chairperson. Most of my friends are involved in similar organisations, like volunteering for food banks, and so on. A bunch of devout muslims including my best buddy want me to move in with them. Now that we've established pedigree: please don't compare me or try to draw some sort of moral equivalence between Leninists and fascists, thanks. I can assure you that no Leninist in this thread is interested in establishing a white supremacist, capitalist utopia. Or what the hell, keep going! Your hand-wringing and stupid false equivalencies are doing a great job of implicitly making our case for us, providing the best possible argument for why you're grossly uninformed cowards who'll jump at the first opportunity to tattoo a goddamn swastika on your chests. Disgusting. http://www.enetenglish.gr/?i=news.en.article&id=1353 quote:Updated At: 00:57 Saturday 10 August 2013 SSJ2 Goku Wilders fucked around with this message at 12:00 on Aug 11, 2013 |
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Aug 11, 2013 11:55
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It's true that Greek blood has advantages, the amount of olives in Greek cooking make it unappetizing for vampires. And I think this thread is assuming there are only two extremes in anti fascist measures, hand wringing nothing or instant violence, nothing in between. And that all instances of fascism require the same response.
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Aug 11, 2013 12:06
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Mind Loving Owl posted:It's true that Greek blood has advantages, the amount of olives in Greek cooking make it unappetizing for vampires. And I think this thread is assuming there are only two extremes in anti fascist measures, hand wringing nothing or instant violence, nothing in between. And that all instances of fascism require the same response. If you can find somebody ITT who has argued that violence is the sole and only acceptable option when resisting the fash, then do show the rest of the class. Cerebral Bore fucked around with this message at 12:12 on Aug 11, 2013 |
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Aug 11, 2013 12:10
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Mind Loving Owl posted:It's true that Greek blood has advantages, the amount of olives in Greek cooking make it unappetizing for vampires. And I think this thread is assuming there are only two extremes in anti fascist measures, hand wringing nothing or instant violence, nothing in between. And that all instances of fascism require the same response. So what sort of middle-ground are you advocating exactly? How can what is happening in Russia, Hungary, Germany, Romania, the UK in a more insidious form, etc etc be combated? Oh, and since when do vampires hate olives? 
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Aug 11, 2013 12:10
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Typo posted:What are we talking about here: persecuting people directly responsible for those crimes? Or beating up anyone with political views to the right of a certain point and is open about it? http://adolfbody.sytes.net/
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Aug 11, 2013 12:40
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Pesmerga posted:So what sort of middle-ground are you advocating exactly? How can what is happening in Russia, Hungary, Germany, Romania, the UK in a more insidious form, etc etc be combated? Massive amounts of belittling, social shaming and mockery. I'm serious fascism feeds on people who want to stave of feelings of impotence, they offer the feeling of power. The tacit acceptance of many fascist ideals like xenophobia that exists in places like the UK is like water for weeds with fascism. And of course in places like Greece violent response to fascists probably wouldn't hurt.
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Aug 11, 2013 12:55
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A lot of people in this thread seem to be conflating state violence with civil violence. I don't want the government violently suppressing any political group because it sets a horrible precedent, and I obviously don't want laws that legitimize violence outside of self-defence. That doesn't make it morally wrong to fight a violent, hateful group with violence. It just means you have to weigh the possibility of going to jail against what you accomplish by fighting it. A state that doesn't enforce its monopoly on violence is basically anarchy waiting to happen and while I'm sympathetic I'm not an anarchist.
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Aug 11, 2013 13:01
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It's worth mentioning that fascists already fight leftists/activists/etc, and try to suppress them with violence. Anyone ever heard of Redwatch?
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Aug 11, 2013 13:18
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Fojar38 posted:Kindly don't be so condescending as to treat me as though I don't know what fascism entails. I think that I've been very clear thus far as to precisely what my opinions of fascism are. If you knew what fascism entails you wouldn't tolerate it. It's not an ideology that has just incidentally gotten violent in its past. It's not an ideology that has simply had people commit violence in its name. It's not the same as Stalin being responsible for countless deaths in the Holodomor or through purges. It's not the same as Britain being responsible for countless deaths through famine and colonialism in India. It's not the same as the United States responsible for tens if not hundreds of thousands dead in Iraq and Afghanistan and thousands tortured in the name of the war on terror. All those things are capital B Bad. However, fascism is worse. Fascism has violence at the center of its ideology. It *requires* violence to even fit together as an ideology. As a reactionary ideology it is defined by its opposition to various other ideologies, concepts, policies and people, and distinguishes itself by the violence it is willing and wanting to commit in order to get rid of all those things. There's no such thing as a non-violent fascist. There's only a fascist who hasn't gotten strong enough yet to feel confident enough and able to commit violence. The only reason Golden Dawn doesn't have an Auschwitz running is because they do not yet have the means. The difference between communism and fascism is that nowhere in communist theory are massacres or purges or even any violence at all necessary. The revolution can and hopefully will be entirely peaceful. However if we're realistic we realize that the upper classes and reactionary elements within society will resort to violence whenever a communist revolution happens or even just becomes a faint possibility. Violence in defense of yourself in such a situation is wholly different from the fascist desire and need for violence. They don't commit violence to defend themselves from anything. They commit violence for the sake of committing violence. For the joy of having their boot stamp on a human face. For being able to laugh at others' suffering. Don't beat around the bush here. Everyone agrees that there must be some limitations to freedom of speech. Whether it be the famous shouting fire in a crowded theater, or hate-speech or direct calls for violence or blackmail or intimidation and extortion practices or conspiring to commit murder. Everyone draws a line somewhere. I draw the line at fascism, and if you don't I must ask you, what the gently caress is wrong with you? Omi-Polari posted:Why can't you just use the state's law enforcement and intelligence forces to monitor fascist parties? Someone said earlier that Germany is the country that's least likely to see the fascists gain any sort of influence at the political level again, and it's my understanding that the German state has a pretty intense apparatus set up for monitoring and controlling them. The German apparatus monitoring fascists is so good that they missed a string of neo-nazi murders of Turks for years and years and thought it was just some poo poo from inside the Turkish community. All liberal states have an extensive history of deeply infiltrating and monitoring any groups even vaguely leftist. Down to entirely peaceful animal rights and environmental activists and advocacy groups being infiltrated to the point of the police infiltrators sleeping around with women in these groups and having babies with them in the UK. The scrutiny given to right wing hate groups is nowhere near comparable. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 14:25 on Aug 11, 2013 |
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Aug 11, 2013 13:31
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Russia Russian State TV Host: Gay Heart and Blood Donations Are ‘Unsuitable For The Continuation Of Life’ And ‘Must Be Buried or Burned’ (Video) quote:In a 30-second clip made public by Spectrum Human Rights Alliance, Russian news host Dmitry Kiselev, called the donation of human organs by homosexuals ‘unsuitable for the continuation of life’ and ‘must be buried or burned.’ His statements aired on the news show Historical Process on Rossiya 1, Russia’s primary state-owned television network in April, and received the applause of the audience members. Emphasis mine. Homosexuals, literally vampires. 
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Aug 11, 2013 14:15
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No, but guys, guys, if we do nothing, don't worry, the fascists will totally stop!The Guardian posted:Cameron rejects Stephen Fry's call for Russian Winter Olympics boycott: PM says campaign against new Russian anti-gay laws best served by participation at Sochi 2014 Games So, look, you're in good company. David Cameron thinks that if we turn up and pour money into games being held by a fascist regime, we are in fact helping to condemn that regime. No need even for boycotts, the best answer to fascism is silence.
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Aug 11, 2013 14:46
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Is this going to end with Putin refusing to shake a gay Olympian's hand? Hmm my spell check does not recognize Putin, guess it doesn't like him either. Also fascism maybe one of the few things where saying someone somewhere is cackling and rubbing their hands about the evil poo poo they'll soon do is not exaggerating.
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Aug 11, 2013 14:50
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Cerebral Bore posted:See the bolded part? This is where your understanding of fascism breaks down, because violence is quite literally an end in and of itself in fascist thought. If you want to I can start quiting Mussolini's "The Doctrine of Fascism" here. Marxists insist fascism is essentially destructive and reactionary. I disagree with this. But I can see why Marxists insist it is this way, because the Marxist interpretation is reluctant to acknowledge other kinds of competing revolutionary forces other than Marxism - forces which use tactics in a similar manner to how Marxist regimes attempted to implement their own revolutionary new order. (See Lenin's writings about violence as inherent to class war.) Orange Devil posted:If you knew what fascism entails you wouldn't tolerate it. Similar are "lone wolves" who carry out racist terrorist attacks on their own; are radicalized entirely over the internet, and do not operate under any command structure. Newly radicalized but non-violent extremists nonetheless go on to join non-fascist (but right-wing populist) parties and constitute an extreme fringe. How to censor, restrict or use violence against these people are really difficult questions. There's a certain point somewhere where anti-fascist violence stops solving the problem. Captain Oblivious posted:Holy poo poo this shouldn't be that complicated. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 15:18 on Aug 11, 2013 |
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Aug 11, 2013 15:06
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Pesmerga posted:No, but guys, guys, if we do nothing, don't worry, the fascists will totally stop!
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Aug 11, 2013 15:11
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Fascism is gaining popularity in Greece and the Golden Dawn is openly promising to do horrible things to immigrants/"degenerates" if they gain political power, but we should tolerate them because banning their party and prosecuting their violent thugs would delegitimize the liberal state which few people at this moment have reason to trust anyway.
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Aug 11, 2013 15:30
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Yet another pseudo anti-"fascist" DD circle-jerk full of bash the fash heros (there are literally thousands of fascists gathering in most football grounds in Italy every single Sunday. No bash the fash hero on sight...might that have something to do with bash the fash heros only attending 10:1 marches?) ...and as always no-one ever asks why do people CONTINUE to go that way? How can the left fail SO MISERABLY again and again and again so much as not be seen as the natural harbour for discontent? How can it be that "Fascists" (you are very unattentive about fascism if you make a thread like this) are now mayors? (Mayor of Rome and other cities and towns scattered around italy). For every fascist in existence you have the slap in the face reminder of the failure of the left. Every single fascist is a reminder of the bankruptcy of thought of the left. Don't "bash the fash", bash yourself into oblivion, gently caress off forever and do everybody else a favour. There are two fascist way of thinkings: the left and the fascists. At least the fascists know they are. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 11, 2013 15:31
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I think discussing the source of the new fascism across Europe would be a far more interesting discussion than whether or not violence is an acceptable way to confront fascism. At least in the USA, neo nazis and their ilk are usually poor economically destitute groups who live in the ruins of post industrial America. Their general poverty seems to be the source of their blind anger which is manipulated by leaders against other oppressed groups, such as immigrants and homosexuals, perceived as the source of white poverty. Is their a correlation between poverty and the rise of fascism? Most definitely. Fascism rose after the Great Depression and it is clearly rising now, the product of the recent economic downturn and austerity measures that have only contributed to poverty. Really, if you want to confront fascism, confront the situations in which poor and broken individuals are created, namely a lovely life as a result of poverty.
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Aug 11, 2013 15:40
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Fascism really worked out well for Italy in the past. 
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Aug 11, 2013 15:42
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Er Pernacchia posted:Yet another pseudo anti-"fascist" DD circle-jerk full of bash the fash heros (there are literally thousands of fascists gathering in most football grounds in Italy every single Sunday. No bash the fash hero on sight...might that have something to do with bash the fash heros only attending 10:1 marches?)
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Aug 11, 2013 15:44
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Er Pernacchia posted:Yet another pseudo anti-"fascist" DD circle-jerk full of bash the fash heros (there are literally thousands of fascists gathering in most football grounds in Italy every single Sunday. No bash the fash hero on sight...might that have something to do with bash the fash heros only attending 10:1 marches?) How can the failures of the left be the natural harbor for discontent when leftist policies haven't even been carried out anywhere for the last thirty years?
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Aug 11, 2013 15:46
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Er Pernacchia posted:Yet another pseudo anti-"fascist" DD circle-jerk full of bash the fash heros (there are literally thousands of fascists gathering in most football grounds in Italy every single Sunday. No bash the fash hero on sight...might that have something to do with bash the fash heros only attending 10:1 marches?) Any other slogans you can think of? If you'd actually read the thread, you would have seen frequent discussions as to why people tend towards fascist ideologies in times of crisis.
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Aug 11, 2013 15:51
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In my experience the handwringers tend to be people who won't be affected negatively or positively by fascists and their existence. For example, most white people will go and defend the right of fascists to march around and sing songs but stop short of defending their bashing of immigrants because that's "taking it too far." Of course when it invariably happens, well, it's a tragedy and the far right will feel the punishment of our justice system! Preventing that kind of movement from taking off though is mentally abhorrent for whatever reason to milquetoast white liberals. However, the communities that fascists target cannot maintain the privilege of riding the fence and not caring most people do. While you can armchair it up about passive and nonviolent means of protest against fascism other people will literally get stomped over it. Should they not have the opportunity to defend themselves? It's easy to claim a hypothetical moral high ground when its not your neck on the curb. To give you a concrete example, I used to hang out with a Asian folk artist from Harrisburg who was rescued from skinhead thugs from the local antifa people who would show up and beat up the racists picking on him. Do you think he would agree that he should've passively lied down when fascists show up for a fight?
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Aug 11, 2013 16:00
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Er Pernacchia posted:How can it be that "Fascists" (you are very unattentive about fascism if you make a thread like this) are now mayors? (Mayor of Rome and other cities and towns scattered around italy). I made a thread like this specifically because I was "unattentive" to it. I hoped that people would add to it and fill in the gaps in my knowledge, and I've been learning quite a bit from reading the discussion in this thread. Until this thread I'd only known as much as I picked up through the news that made it across the ocean here to America. I'm sure others who have read this thread have also learned more about fascist gangs springing up around Europe that they may have overlooked. If you have any more information you could add to the thread on "fascism" (as you put it) or Fascism I'm sure everyone here would welcome your contribution. Er Pernacchia posted:There are two fascist way of thinkings: the left and the fascists. At least the fascists know they are. Can you tell us what specifically you find to be fascist about the left? Do you mean the progressive left or the neoliberal left?
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Aug 11, 2013 16:04
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Er Pernacchia posted:Yet another pseudo anti-"fascist" DD circle-jerk full of bash the fash heros (there are literally thousands of fascists gathering in most football grounds in Italy every single Sunday. No bash the fash hero on sight...might that have something to do with bash the fash heros only attending 10:1 marches?) So why shouldn't fascism be challenged? What makes the left the equivilent of fascism? Why is leftist thought "bankrupt"? Please define what you think fascism is, and what leftist ideals are fascistic. EDIT: your post reads like the most glaring support of literal fascism I've seen in ages, exemplified by the first lines; a sort of "antifas are soft bastards, we (fascists) are stronger". Chocolate Teapot fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Aug 11, 2013 |
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Aug 11, 2013 16:10
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Pesmerga posted:No, but guys, guys, if we do nothing, don't worry, the fascists will totally stop! Dutch government took the exact same line. The minister for sports came out and said that for example Dutch speed skater Ireen Wüst, who is bisexual, going to Russia and winning medals would be a much bigger signal than a boycott. I just don't buy that. Omi-Polari posted:Both communism and fascism propose totalising solutions to the ills of liberal society, and when implemented over the 20th century in their Nazi and Stalinist forms, provided the rationale for industrialized mass murder. Please cite Stalinist industrialized mass-murder.
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Aug 11, 2013 16:23
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Orange Devil posted:Dutch government took the exact same line. The minister for sports came out and said that for example Dutch speed skater Ireen Wüst, who is bisexual, going to Russia and winning medals would be a much bigger signal than a boycott. I just don't buy that. To be fair, Jesse Owen's victory in the Olympics held in Nazi-controlled Germany was pretty rad, doubly so because it clowned (some) racists in the US, too. I just don't think we can actually guarantee the safety of the athletes. Putin's government won't give a poo poo if they get beaten up or even killed.
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Aug 11, 2013 16:26
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