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Sir Teabag
Oct 26, 2007

Exmond posted:

So first I play Ariadna and instantly gravitate towards SPACE FRENCH WEREWOLVES (Because they are cool). Then I switch to Nomads and immediately find out about the BAKUNIN UBERCOMMANDO which is an amazing unit.

I then looked at the model...



Is there any faction without furries in it?

Just stay clear of Bakunin and you won't be using any furries.

With Ariadna they have a few werewolves and antipodes. I personally think the Ariadna dogs are cool as hell. They're pretty intimidating on the battlefield too. They aren't by any means the most powerful units in Ariadna, so it's very very easy to not use any dogs if you want to go that route.

Cat Face Joe posted:

New Bahg Mari resculpts.

These guys combined with the new TAGS are making me take a look at what units are in SAA. Maybe after the regulars get redone (and I finish my back log hahahaha.....) I'll get in to some "low tech" PanO

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Flipswitch
Mar 30, 2010


Those new BA sculpts are ace, though the one guy looks like he's dancing.

BattleMaster
Aug 14, 2000

Bakunin gets a bad rap for the Uberfallkomando, but as far as I know Zeroes, Riot Grrls, and all of their other fun units aren't furries.

Sir Teabag
Oct 26, 2007

BattleMaster posted:

Bakunin gets a bad rap for the Uberfallkomando, but as far as I know Zeroes, Riot Grrls, and all of their other fun units aren't furries.

Agreed.

If you don't wanna use furries then don't. If you don't want to use a sectorial that uses them then avoid Bakunin. Problem solved!

Mister Unfortunate
Aug 19, 2005
This is an odd question, but can anyone link to a download of the army list and of the ITS info .PDFs that aren't through the Corvus Belli page? I'm trying to get the rules together in anticipation of my first Infinity minis arriving soon, and there's something about their download setup that doesn't work with my tablet no matter what I try. I found the main rules and the Human Sphere rules but I'd like to know what my tiny soldiers are supposed to do and how they do it.

Pidgin Englishman
Apr 30, 2007

If you shoot
you better hit your mark
The infinity wiki is maintained by corvus belli and has the basic rules laid out.

The actual pdfs are a bit easier to read, and HSN3 hasn't been added to the wiki yet, but the wiki is still where I go 90% of the time.

http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/en/Main_Page

Ilor
Feb 2, 2008

That's a crit.
You might want to try downloading onto a computer, then transferring across to your tablet via wifi or USB key. That pretty much always works.

Genghis Cohen
Jun 29, 2013
So I've been thinking a fair bit about new lists, and what I can do with Corregidor under the new HSN3 rules. The sectorial changed a lot less than some armies (not complaining, it was already in a good place) and as I've mentioned here before, I haven't immediately hit on anything better than 'plenty of units, full link of Alguaciles, max jaguars in 2nd combat group' which has been the basis of my tournament lists so far. I've been coming up with a list or two every evening and keeping all the ITS codes. Some precepts I have been trying to obey:

- have 15 or more models. I really rate numbers in Infinity as giving you more resilience to bad luck, more board position, just more options in general. The orders count is huge. Doesn't seem like there's much between a lot of lists. Some people play 10 orders, which I would find super restrictive, or 10 with a very attenuated rump group, say 1 hidden model ready to be swapped into the main with a command token. Some people play with 13-14, with a relatively even split (terrible idea IMO) or with a small group to accomplish a limited objective, or provide some support role like a safe Lt/Chain of Command, or overwatch via total reaction and/or snipers, or prone, well-hidden doctors to revive big hitters. I have written a few lists like that, but I feel the optimum way to play with my style is 1 big, 'main' group and a slightly smaller 2nd group, which using Jaguars I've been used to denoting my 'pressure' group to pin the enemy down and get kills whilst the first group does the objectives. I'm not sure how well that aim translates to real play, both groups just do whatever needs doing sometimes. Both groups need specialists, and both should have some order-hungry attacking model(s) to go on killing sprees. Here's a full 20-model list I wrote:
20 Models
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1 10
ALGUACIL HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 18)
ALGUACIL Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 15)
ALGUACIL Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 18)
ALGUACIL (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
ALGUACIL Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
STEMPLER ZOND Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 17)
TRANSDUCTOR ZOND Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
TRANSDUCTOR ZOND Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
REAKTION ZOND HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 26)
CLOCKMAKER Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18)

GROUP 2 9 1
WILDCAT (Fireteam: Haris) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 20)
WILDCAT Lieutenant Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 19)
WILDCAT Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 24)
JAGUAR Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 10)
JAGUAR Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 10)
JAGUAR Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 10)
JAGUAR Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 10)
JAGUAR Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 10)
BANDIT Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Light Shotgun, Adhesive Launcher / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 25)
SALYUT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)

6 SWC | 298 Points

- Have some solid, ranged, SWC models who can deliver reliable results. Corbeau, who posts here, wrote some really interesting posts about unit roles in Infinity. I play aggressively and one of my core precepts is to have 'strikers' as he called them. Units which can clear the enemy's threatening units out in the active turn. I see almost any ITS game, more or less, as achieving ascendancy over the enemy in firepower/orders/points left, and then ensuring the objectives. Some missions and set-ups subvert that but generally I find myself killing off either numbers or valuable models at the onset, so that I can take objectives, move without being pinned down from long range, etc. So I try to include in each list (and group) a HMG/Spitfire type weapon to bully the enemy with.

- Include a shitload of specialists. I've played one mission where you got points for killing enemy specialists, which is a neat balancing mechanic. But in any other mission, just make every rifle-carrier you can a FO, paramedic, etc. Why the gently caress not? No win is easier/better than when your opponent only has 1-2 specialists in any kind of position, so you can just kill them then focus on wiping the floor with his models.

Anyway, just my thoughts. I'm tending towards an Alguacil core team, it's just got the necessary firepower and specialists without being too expensive, and am trying to incorporate a Haris but I'm not sure. Corregidor is still hot poo poo, but under new rules I'm quite tempted by other armies, like Hassassin Bahram, or especially the new-look ISS. Watching their resculpt releases with keen interest.

EDIT: Just to be clear about the point of this post, the 20-model list above is not what I'm going with, I'd prefer say 16 models with better specialist coverage and probably another elite model like an Intruder or Tsyklon for attacking.

Sir Teabag
Oct 26, 2007
I've taken a similar approach with building my list for an ITS tournament on Saturday. I can confirm that impersonation with a shotgun can ruin a link teams day. A boarding shotgun would be even more merciless - I'm looking at you Fiday!

Anyway, I've set up my grunt team to be more of a backfield team that over looks objectives. It's a shame they can't get a missile launcher, but a generic HMG is pretty decent in my experience. I've set up my Spec-Ops to have doctor and engineer and a WIP of 15 so.... objectives should be easy for that group as long as I keep them safe. Advancing up the board I have my Marauders - I plan on leaving mines to watch their backs in case any impersonators or TO camo markers get ideas about attacking them. Again, they've got a cheap specialist. I left doctor fire axe out of the list, because the only times I plan on using my Spec-Op offensively is to try and glue a TAG or something. At 200 points I really doubt that will come up, but you never know with some people! Though it is a little disappointing I can speculative fire with it.

I've included the Maverick specifically because I plan on using her to semi-reliably pop smoke from total cover. And then run out and get objectives before poping back into saftey. The desperado is the counter-point to her cautious approach. He'll probably be my reserve model so I can set him up to counter link teams/haris teams with his chain rifle. If it works cool, if not... his points would have been spent on a doctor that I'd be hoping not to use anyway. So no big loss.

My Foxtrot and Hardcase are in a seperate group because I plan on moving the Foxtrot over to the big group when the desperado dies. With two link teams I won't be spending many command tokens so it isn't a big deal. I wish I could fit more camo tokens, but 200 points doesn't let you really devote yourself to more than one style of play at a time. And this time, I'm mostly going to try and be as order efficient as possible and leverage the hell out of my link teams.

200 Pts USARF
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1 9 1 2
INTEL Spec-Ops (12 XP) (WIP:15, Engineer, Doctor) Rifle, Adhesive Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
GRUNT HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 21)
GRUNT (Marksmanship LX) Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 18)
GRUNT Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
GRUNT Lieutenant Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 10)
MARAUDER (Fireteam: Haris) Rifle, Heavy Flamethrower / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (1 | 22)
MARAUDER Paramedic (MediKit) Rifle, Heavy Flamethrower / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
MARAUDER Boarding Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 22)
DESPERADO Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / 2 Heavy Pistols, AP CC Weapon. (0 | 11)
MAVERICK Submachine Gun, Light Rocket Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 22)

GROUP 2 1 1
HARDCASE FRONTIERSMAN Tactical Bow, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
FOXTROT (Forward Observer) Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18)

4 SWC | 199 Points

E: I also think Spec Ops outside of the campaign setting are kind of dumb. Mine is avoiding a hacking device because I'm sure there will be a bunch of people trying out Killer Hacking Devices this weekend and I don't want to be a guinea pig!

Genghis Cohen
Jun 29, 2013
I like the list, Haris+Core is really good at 200pts and it chimes well with the semi-disposable bikes and their impetuous orders. I would advise getting rid of something, probably the Hardcase, to slap a 5th grunt into the link team. That +3BS is really good on line infantry.

Sir Teabag
Oct 26, 2007

Genghis Cohen posted:

I like the list, Haris+Core is really good at 200pts and it chimes well with the semi-disposable bikes and their impetuous orders. I would advise getting rid of something, probably the Hardcase, to slap a 5th grunt into the link team. That +3BS is really good on line infantry.

I thought about that and asked the TO and our local warcor what the deal with spec ops are and if they are linkable. He said it's kosher, so for this event my spec ops is playing duty as the fifth grunt. :getin:

That was a week or two ago.... I should double check with him...

E: Yup. Spec Ops are linkable with their unit type. So I've got a WIP 15 grunt with doctor and engineer, packing an adhesive launcher. BS 14 grunt fire team to hold my objectives. Marauders with +1 B HFT and Boarding Shotgun to move up the board and be pricks.

I wouldn't do that if it weren't a 200 point tournament. But at 200 points I had some gaping holes in my army. Now I can complete most classifieds.

Sir Teabag fucked around with this message at 15:27 on May 27, 2016

Flipswitch
Mar 30, 2010


Xeodron Batroids are up on the Infinity website, they look loving awesome.

http://infinitythegame.com/article.php?id=195

Cat Face Joe
Feb 20, 2005

goth vegan crossfit mom who vapes



Those are cool as hell.

Pierzak
Oct 30, 2010
:heysexy: well hello there, next contender for the unofficial name of "that little motherfucker".

What's there on the minis? Red fury + K1? Here's hoping for an alt multi-rifle hand.

Genghis Cohen
Jun 29, 2013
Xeodrons are pretty sweet, for my money I like the Bashi-Bazouks and Bagh-Mari better. Not usually a huge TAG fan.

That said though, I bought a Geckos box when HSN3 came out. I've just ordered 2 more Mobile Brigada (I wanted another combi rifle model, and a better looking missile launcher, so I've done some conversions), 2 more Jaguars (didn't want to proxy), some Alguaciles purely for potential Moran Masai conversions (I already own the original Moran models) and 4 Kameel robots from Haqqislam, to convert into the Nomad Silhouette 3 utility remotes. Pretty sure I now have every option for Corregidor, by proxy or conversion if not an actual stock model. Why can't I loving stop?

Pierzak
Oct 30, 2010

Genghis Cohen posted:

Why can't I loving stop?
Because there are other factions.

Genghis Cohen
Jun 29, 2013

Pierzak posted:

Because there are other factions.

Oh god, Imperial Service has such good tactical options . . .

Signal
Dec 10, 2005

Genghis Cohen posted:

and 4 Kameel robots from Haqqislam, to convert into the Nomad Silhouette 3 utility remotes.

Kameel are silhouette 4 by default, what are you going to do with them to make them smaller?

Pierzak
Oct 30, 2010

Genghis Cohen posted:

Oh god, Imperial Service has such good tactical options . . .

...said no one ever in N2 :v:

Genghis Cohen
Jun 29, 2013

Signal posted:

Kameel are silhouette 4 by default, what are you going to do with them to make them smaller?

Bend the legs a tiny bit to get them onto 40mm bases. Should work fine, it's the same legs the Nomad remotes use. They use to be packaged with 40mm, and little hoof-looking base extensions that slot onto the edges of the 40mm base. Obviously I clip those off as I believe most people have to nowadays.

They come with radar dish and rucksacks, respectively, which are just separate add-on pieces, I'll leave them off. I have some bits in mind which can be attached to represent combi rifles (Stempler Zond), HMG (Reaktion Zond) or missile launcher (Vertigo Zond), or just left off, via magnets, for unarmed messenger bots.

Genghis Cohen
Jun 29, 2013
D-d-d-d-double post!

Finished painting a batch of Nomads:


Most of which were a Tomcat Doctor, Carlota Kowalsky (essentially a unique Tomcat Engineer) and 2 Zondbots (G:Servant Remotes) to go with them.


Tomcat Doctor is a modern sculpt, slightly bigger scale. Ok with how he turned out, not really full effort, as you can see by the fairly rough freehand and lower body details.




Carlota is not my favourite model by any stretch. The pose is fine, but it's now rather smaller than average, and it's one of those undressed-for-no-reason Infinity women. The background behind this character is basically a really, really hard sergeant major of the Tomcats, who are an elite search/rescue space team. Cool, right? Why the hell is she slipping her jacket off the shoulder and why are her trouser buttons undone? loving sloppy. I converted this model from holding her helmet in hand, to helmet on head. Couldn't do much about the bare shoulders and midriff except leave them black.



This is the one I put real effort into, and he turned out well. Intruder, Corregidor Assault Commando, with HMG. Probably my favourite model, tactically speaking, in the entire game. He's my star player. Sculpt is excellent, the head angle isn't really well suited to showing off the skull face I paint onto my Intruders, but I think I bodged it up alright. Therefore opted to paint eye lights as well, just to set it off, which I haven't done with other Intruders.



Still time left in the long weekend - on to the Lunokhods!

Feeple
Jul 17, 2004

My favorite part of this hobby is the rules arguments.
Hey, Genghis Cohen,

Could you give me a bit of advice? I play Corregidor (and just got beat fairly closely by a pal as we played some starter matches. He was US Ranger Adriana.) My other frequent faction opponent is Yu Jing, and I beleive ISS.

I really love the *Cats models, and my Igunana. What do you suggest for a list to flesh it out? I bought the Corregidor starter, the normal starter, and some HellCats.

Genghis Cohen
Jun 29, 2013
Of course mate. My general view is that USAriadna is a pretty blunt-force army - they've got no especially cunning tricks but they do have fast warbands (template/close combat types), some effective basic camouflage and AD troops, and of course Van Zant. If facing USAriadna I pretty much always keep him in mind and set a couple rifle-carriers to watch my back edge, ideally on suppression fire. Dude is bad news. One of the things to beware of with any high-order-count opponent is you can't spend too many orders chasing down little 10-pt models, unless their position is critical to the mission. Concentrate on taking out his linchpin units and let the cheap stuff flounder against strong AROs, unless you can pick them off the table with a single order.

Yu Jing are harder to predict. I would say they merit taking some of the tools to get around heavy ARM and multiple Wounds. ADHLs, Assault hacking devices, E/M weapons are all good examples. Missile launchers and panzerfausts, especially linked, don't hurt either. Hard to say more without seeing what type of army you're facing, but I'd be prepared to face TO camo as well, try and have a flamethrower or two. And of course, always take an Intruder, but that goes without saying.

I don't use my Iguana much, doesn't really fit my style in ITS. Taking it, I'd be mindful to include an engineer, and a couple hackers since being a repeater is pretty swell. Here's a go though:
Jurisdictional Command of Corregidor
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1 10
IGUANA HMG, Heavy Flamethrower / . (2 | 71)
IGUANA OPERATOR HMG / Pistol, Knife. (0)
LUPE BALBOA Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, Panzerfaust, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 23)
ALGUACIL HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 18)
ALGUACIL (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
ALGUACIL Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
ALGUACIL Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 18)
WILDCAT Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 25)
WILDCAT Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 24)
WILDCAT (Fireteam: Haris) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 20)
INTRUDER Lieutenant Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, Grenades / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 35)

GROUP 2 3
JAGUAR Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 10)
JAGUAR Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 10)
TOMCAT Engineer Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 22)

6 SWC | 300 Points

Open in Infinity Army

That's an Iguana, an Alguaciles link full of specialists with a good point man in Lupe, a Wildcats Haris, and an Intruder lt hanging around the back. The 2nd group is really just a couple flank guards, and models that can be switched into the first with command tokens.

Are you guys playing ITS? Cause more important than writing a list to the opposing army is writing a list, and having a strategy, for the mission. Example, I write a list for the mission 'Supplies', where 3 boxes are on the centre line. Players must activate them, pick up the contents, and hold them until the end of the game. My strategy is to go first, grab them quick, and get them right back towards my board edge - not many armies will have the orders to blast through all my AROs and still get the objectives at the end. So I take care to include 3 skirmishing specialists, to deploy next to and grab the boxes; smoke grenades, to cover them from AROs; an Intruder HMG, to pick off the threats through that smoke. My back-up plan, if I lose the initial roll-off, is of course to go second, and to pin my opponent down as much as possible. So I still deploy my specialists close by - two of them are Moran Masai, which gives me some crazy koalas to slow my opponent's rush for the objectives. I overlook the objectives with a link team and any other long range models.

So what I mean is, plan for the mission more than the opponent when writing your list. Plan for your opponent when deploying on the field.

Panzeh
Nov 27, 2006

"..The high ground"
How good is the French stuff in Ariadna?

Pierzak
Oct 30, 2010

Panzeh posted:

How good is the French stuff in Ariadna?
Decent if of limited variety. Don't count on getting the new mini-links soon though.

Flipswitch
Mar 30, 2010


It's highly subject to changes in the upcoming book.

Sir Teabag
Oct 26, 2007
Really nice TomCats! And I'm really digging the skull motif and glowing eye; the intruder is a great sculpt.

Trip report:
I brought my USARF to a 200 point ITS tournament this weekend. The missions were supremacy, emergency transmission and sieze the antennae. I've gone over my list a little bit before but basically the Marauders are my striking unit and the Grunts grab objectives near my end. The Maverick smokes things and claims objectives, as does the Foxtrot. Hardcase goes on supression fire after using ambush camo to burn some orders. And desperado smokes things and maybe kills a guy? He's more just a distraction.

200 Pts USARF
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1 9 1 2
INTEL Spec-Ops (12 XP) (WIP:15, Engineer, Doctor) Rifle, Adhesive Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
GRUNT HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 21)
GRUNT (Marksmanship LX) Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 18)
GRUNT Lieutenant Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 10)
GRUNT Heavy Flamethrower, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
MARAUDER (Fireteam: Haris) Rifle, Heavy Flamethrower / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (1 | 22)
MARAUDER Paramedic (MediKit) Rifle, Heavy Flamethrower / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
MARAUDER Boarding Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 22)
DESPERADO Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / 2 Assault Pistols, CC Weapon. (0 | 13)
MAVERICK (Forward Observer) Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 19)

GROUP 2 1 1
FOXTROT (Forward Observer) Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18)
HARDCASE FRONTIERSMAN Tactical Bow, Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)

4 SWC | 200 Points

First up was Supremacy versus PanO. I won the roll off and choose to go second, figuring I had some infiltraing specialists and a fast maverick that I could use to get some consoles. I also figured my burst two flame throwers would discourage my opponent from getting to close - especially with my marauders having forward deployment. Welp - it went so tits up on my first turn that I advised my opponent to stop killing me if he wanted any objective points. I use a command token to limit my opponent to one command token as he had eight orders and was playing vanilla. Though his list included three TO camo markers, Joan of Arc, Constantinos two fusiliers and an infilitraing spec ops. Joan moved up and hit my maruaders with a nanopulser. They all died and went dogged, though she didn't move again so there goes 1/3 of my list. Constantinos then just kills all my camo tokens. A hexas with spitfire decloaks and kills my bikes on my turn. It ended up being 7-1 and I was in retreat turn 3. I had a few plays go my way, but mostly I just couldn't roll for it. "I need an 18 to hit...and I roll two 19s cool...and I'm dead"

Game two was against Bakunin - emergency transmission. I'll spare the details, but I lost 10-0. He just killed my reactive pieces (sniper and HMG) with his first orders and locked the board down. Then used pi-well to kill every single thing I had. Not really, but if there was a face to face to be made he would crit it. Highlight of the match was the marauder with boarding shotgun killing a lunkohod and morlock with a blast template. Then getting hugged by crazy koalas and dying. I played it as well as I could, but I couldn't get any rolls in my favour. I ended up getting some revenge kills, but really nothing important happened because pi-well is a little bastard. I ended up losing 10-0 (he killed my forward observer maverick before I could get a classified), and in retreat with 3 models (30 points) left. The table was fairly open, which was a little disappointing. I should have gone first to take advantage of the openness and my smoke grenades. And since it was so open and thus everyone was huddled behind cover it made me really, really regret not having an II grunt. But that's the challenge of 200 points isn't it?

Third game was against the guy I rode in with! So I was fairly familiar with his Hassassin's army as we play against each other probably about once a month. This was seize the antennae, probably my favourite mission of the bunch and definitely the most exciting game. I took first turn, because taking second turn hadn't worked out for me at all, so I may as well try something different! Desperado uses his impetuous order to move up and throw smoke - before being blown to tiny pieces by a daylami with a panzerfaust. Things game is off to a good start... I use my maverick to speculative fire smoke grenades where I need them and position some units. I end up taking the antennae near my base and somehow end the turn having only lost two units. On my next turn, I decide it's time to get sneaky and use my foxtrot FO to do some damage. So I move him in to perfect position and no one manages to discover him for his surprise shot! I need 15s to hit on a normal unopposed roll against the two troops that tried to discover. And I roll an 18 and a 19. Good start. Next up, the guy who broke supression fire to be shooting hi his plus three range band. He's still -9 to hit because of surprise shot and needs to roll a three or less compared to my fifteen! Naturally... he rolls a friggin' crit.

Fast forward to the last turn and I'm holding the closest antennae to me and I've got my classified. My opponent is holding his closest objective. I kill a ton of guys and clear a path to the center objective, taking it with my doctor. I have two orders left, which is just enough to ressurect my maverick from the center of the board and drive her forward to get into base to base with the enemy antannae. If she survives this, my opponent will be in retreat and I can use the ARO generated from his impetuous movements to attempt to take the console! I just need to survive the ride in. Blowing past a viral mine means she's got to take two BTS saves. BTS saves are basically Ariadnan kryptonite so I'm over the moon when she tanks them both! But wait.... the dude in suprresion fire just at the back of the field has line of sight. Just gotta tank however many hits he scores, it shouldn't be as bad as the BTS saves because I at least have armour three. But he got a crit....and two hits. Ffffff. So now I"m up 7 to three and holding the centre. He uses his command tokens to have three regular orders and starts advancing his camo token towards the centre objective. RIght up against my 3 man link team and surviving marauder with boarding shot gun. He moves into b2b with the objective and reveals himself, drawing a gently caress ton of unopposed AROs - and he's got to try and make a WIP test at 15. I score three pistol hits and a boarding shotgun and he...fails his WIP! Hallelujah! I've done it! Now it's time for him to roll some armour saves and eat lead! Except he tanks every single hit with his armour zero model and has one order left to try again. Again I score three pistol hits and a boarding shotgun to the face - but he passes his WIP and steals the game! For what it's worth I killed him real good and lost 6-4. That one stung as I was so close to a 10-0 win and tabling him.

I ended up coming 6th out of 8 and my opponent from the last game came 5th. I won a door prize and walked away with a poster, a blister of my choice, and a cool print of an assassin attacking a PanO HVT. I selected a dozer with tractor mul controller, so I'll be able to complete engineering classifieds and try out some TR bots with my Ariadna/USAriadna. My Assassins opponent won a set of Aleph terrain, which is awesome because it goes into our terrain pool. I felt a little bit bitter about my games because I just couldn't get any luck, and when it's at the point that all of your opponents have commented on how unlucky you are, you don't feel like there was much else you could have done.

I did learn some valuable lessons though. For example, if you know your opponent has nanopulsers make sure you spread out and cover the approaches better. A grunt link team is essentially dead and shouldn't really be relied upon. They did nothing for me in all three games except get killed whenever the popped out of cover. The marauders had a few moments of glory, but never anything substantial enough to swing a battle. I think I really need to support them better. In the future I may just use a core marauder link team and really build my list around that. Playing at only 200 points, comparing my list to the ones I played against I think I went too "jack of all trades, master of none" and it cost me. I allowed my opponents to deal with one relatively weak threat at a time until I didn't really have any tools left. So if instead I had taken a few grunts, unlinked and used them as roadblocks: a HMG in supressive fire, a sniper popping out and using MMLX, and an ii Grunt reserve model; I think they would have performed better. Then the marauders do the heavy lifting and the Foxtrots snipe objectives or lay mines to help the marauder team as required. I also think that some AD troops would have really come in handy. With my list I'm attacking from my deployment zone and my infiltrators weren't particularly threatening. So being able to flank someone and force them to break suppression/change facings would have been pretty decent.

The group is already talking about when we're going to hold the next one, and it seems like it'll be a full 300 pts tournament. So I think I may just go Vanilla Ariadna and really increase the threat my infiltrators pose by upgrading my Foxtrots to Scouts and Chasseurs. Also cheaper units of doggies. I like USAriadna, I just don't feel like they are nearly as competitive because they seem to rely on a bit more of a standup fight than vanilla, and a standup fight isn't really what Ariadna is best at. That said, the guy who came second was playing USAriadna and he was using a full marauder link team and was backing it up with a black jack he had built himself. So clearly it can be done, I've just got to learn how to do it better and hope for some dice to go my way.

Genghis Cohen
Jun 29, 2013

Sir Teabag posted:

Really nice TomCats! And I'm really digging the skull motif and glowing eye; the intruder is a great sculpt.

....
Tournament Report
.....

I did learn some valuable lessons though. For example, if you know your opponent has nanopulsers make sure you spread out and cover the approaches better. A grunt link team is essentially dead and shouldn't really be relied upon. They did nothing for me in all three games except get killed whenever the popped out of cover. The marauders had a few moments of glory, but never anything substantial enough to swing a battle. I think I really need to support them better. In the future I may just use a core marauder link team and really build my list around that. Playing at only 200 points, comparing my list to the ones I played against I think I went too "jack of all trades, master of none" and it cost me. I allowed my opponents to deal with one relatively weak threat at a time until I didn't really have any tools left. So if instead I had taken a few grunts, unlinked and used them as roadblocks: a HMG in supressive fire, a sniper popping out and using MMLX, and an ii Grunt reserve model; I think they would have performed better. Then the marauders do the heavy lifting and the Foxtrots snipe objectives or lay mines to help the marauder team as required. I also think that some AD troops would have really come in handy. With my list I'm attacking from my deployment zone and my infiltrators weren't particularly threatening. So being able to flank someone and force them to break suppression/change facings would have been pretty decent.

The group is already talking about when we're going to hold the next one, and it seems like it'll be a full 300 pts tournament. So I think I may just go Vanilla Ariadna and really increase the threat my infiltrators pose by upgrading my Foxtrots to Scouts and Chasseurs. Also cheaper units of doggies. I like USAriadna, I just don't feel like they are nearly as competitive because they seem to rely on a bit more of a standup fight than vanilla, and a standup fight isn't really what Ariadna is best at. That said, the guy who came second was playing USAriadna and he was using a full marauder link team and was backing it up with a black jack he had built himself. So clearly it can be done, I've just got to learn how to do it better and hope for some dice to go my way.

First of all, thanks mate! Don't get too discouraged in your list/models/army by a couple of losses in a tournament. Sounds like you had bad luck at a couple critical junctures, and also had some issues with going second against armies that contained potent aggressive models. Whether a link team does well defensively (or any model for that matter) especially in turn 1 when you have no suppressive fire, and limited, if any, deployable weapons set, is largely a matter of luck, but also of positioning. Burst 2 in ARO on one model can get bullied by a B4-5 monster, and/or an ODD or TO Camo model. But with the full 5-model link bonuses it's still a big risk for your opponent to take. Don't expect to kill a lot of stuff in the reactive turn against skilled opponents who are playing to win. It's mostly down to luck or the active player's mistakes when big losses happen in the active turn. What you can expect to do as the reactive player is make your opponent spend all his orders trying to get round your defense or deal with 1-2 cheap, speedbump models. I agree that II grunts are terrific, but the link team is solid if you deploy it right and don't over-rely on it. Going second is definitely harder to figure out than going first, but it will pay dividends in a lot of ITS missions.

What blister did you pick for a prize?

long-ass nips Diane
Dec 13, 2010

Breathe.

Dear CA players, would the 300 point Onyx box they're putting out be a good buy? I was thinking of getting that and the Batroid TAG.

Edit: The 300 pt box is a bundle of the starter, Rodoks and Drones. The pricing works out so that you're basically getting the Rodoks for free.

long-ass nips Diane fucked around with this message at 22:26 on May 30, 2016

Bear Throne
Apr 9, 2014

Swagger Dagger posted:

Dear CA players, would the 300 point Onyx box they're putting out be a good buy? I was thinking of getting that and the Batroid TAG.

Edit: The 300 pt box is a bundle of the starter, Rodoks and Drones. The pricing works out so that you're basically getting the Rodoks for free.

Yeah, get it. The starter and drone box are are two of the first things I recommend for onyx/vanilla. The Rodoks are good, the only reason not to get the starter is if you don't like Morats or don't want to use them.
I will strongly recommend Doc Worm box, it's kinda mandatory for any flavor of CA in ITS. The Imetron/Batroid pack is also really good.

Sir Teabag
Oct 26, 2007

Genghis Cohen posted:

First of all, thanks mate! Don't get too discouraged in your list/models/army by a couple of losses in a tournament. Sounds like you had bad luck at a couple critical junctures, and also had some issues with going second against armies that contained potent aggressive models. Whether a link team does well defensively (or any model for that matter) especially in turn 1 when you have no suppressive fire, and limited, if any, deployable weapons set, is largely a matter of luck, but also of positioning. Burst 2 in ARO on one model can get bullied by a B4-5 monster, and/or an ODD or TO Camo model. But with the full 5-model link bonuses it's still a big risk for your opponent to take. Don't expect to kill a lot of stuff in the reactive turn against skilled opponents who are playing to win. It's mostly down to luck or the active player's mistakes when big losses happen in the active turn. What you can expect to do as the reactive player is make your opponent spend all his orders trying to get round your defense or deal with 1-2 cheap, speedbump models. I agree that II grunts are terrific, but the link team is solid if you deploy it right and don't over-rely on it. Going second is definitely harder to figure out than going first, but it will pay dividends in a lot of ITS missions.

What blister did you pick for a prize?

I picked the Dozer Engineer with Mul control device. I'm planning on getting some Tractor Muls in the future, plus the model is real cool and goes with USARF and Vanilla. I also picked up the Spetnas HMG because that model is awesome as are his rules!

I think until I am a more seasoned player that I'll be choosing the more favourable deployment from now on when I'm lucky enough to win the Lt roll. At least that way I'll end up with the board being a bit more favourable to my plans no matter what order my opponent chooses to play. I also think that at the lower point level, with USARF the 5 man link team is a bit of a trap choice. The plus 3 BS is nice, but I could have had another foxtrot or some a better striker unit. Anyone who is going to be taking on a 5 man link team is going to have either the BS or some other trick to go against them, and grunts don't have a hell of a lot of tricks up their sleeve. 4 man gives you SSL2 so you can ignore surprise, and your facing is more forgiving.

I'm not too discouraged by the losses, I've gone 1 for 6 on my first two tournaments. I don't think that's too bad given I'm still very green at this game! I think it's probably the best way to learn what works well in a competitive setting. My buddies and I play competitive games, but since we're mostly playing against each other we know what to expect. I'd never played against Bakunin or Pan O with Joan and Konstantinos in a competitive match, so that was really eye opening. Joan did me in in my first match, and what I think was a sin-eater with HMG and mimetism did me in on my second match. Although someone was shooting at me with mimetism from a link team because he was burst 5 in the active turn, and looking at Bakunin units that have mimetism that shouldn't have happened....

Pidgin Englishman
Apr 30, 2007

If you shoot
you better hit your mark

Swagger Dagger posted:

Dear CA players, would the 300 point Onyx box they're putting out be a good buy? I was thinking of getting that and the Batroid TAG.

Edit: The 300 pt box is a bundle of the starter, Rodoks and Drones. The pricing works out so that you're basically getting the Rodoks for free.

Yeah, what Bear Throne said and Rodoks in a link are heaps of fun.

A mimetic super-jumping B5 HMG? Yes please. Dumping mines all over the battlefield whenever you move? Yes please. Charging in with B4 light shotguns? Yes please.

Not a viking
Aug 2, 2008

Feels like I just got laid
Yeah, I own all those CA minis already for a reason.

tokenbrownguy
Apr 1, 2010

Sir Teabag posted:

I think until I am a more seasoned player that I'll be choosing the more favourable deployment from now on when I'm lucky enough to win the Lt roll.

This thread mostly chats model releases and tourney reports, but feel free to ask any theory/metagaming questions you might have here! Infinity is a really complex game, but the rules apply universally to each army. Very little special snowflake bullshit here.

The best part about this game is that discussing the metagame and hypotheticals is not only incredibly helpful for players of all experience levels and competency, but that individual scenes play so differently that alternative perspectives can present entirely foreign strategies while using the same basic tools. My luck at my first tournament earlier this year was mostly due to running hyper-aggressive lists against a generally defensive meta.

My advice for your jump up to 300 points:
-First off, gently caress yeah, Vanilla Ariadna. Screw sectorials. Sectorials are for the factions with things like flexibility and equipment options. We've just got big guns and the cunning to make 'em stick.
-I agree almost entirely with your judgement of USAriadna. A little too punchy for my taste, when getting in fair fights is the last thing we want.
-Check out the Spetznaz profiles. The HMG Spetz can win entire games by himself. Marksman L2 means not only do you ignore cover for BS attacks, but you get shock, providing a giant middle finger with which to present to any army relying on Doctors, Paramedics, or No Wound Incap.
-Van Zant is a beast, and you'll want to pick up his model to scare your local scene into spending models to watch their backline, even if you don't bring him every time.
-The Highlander Cateran is probably one of the most cost-efficient snipers in the game. Learn to love this dude. We don't get MSV2 snipers to pierce through smoke, but this guy allows us to play the overwatch game and forces our opponents to burn orders for discovery or risk catching a sniper rifle in the face.
-Hackers are important in ITS for classifieds, but the only two worth bringing are Uxia or the regular Hacking Device Wardriver. Grass grows, sun shines, and we can't play the hacking game worth poo poo.
-Chasseurs are pure gold. Bring two. Preferably Forward Observers or Minelayers.
-Because of our lack of durability, we cannot count on defensive Turn 1 ARO fire to meaningfully hurt the opponents list. MSV2 models backed by smoke, TRO HMG bots, and overwatch links will wreck anything we leave visible. Instead, try using disposable camo ARO pieces (like the Cateran), plentiful midfield disposable camo templates, and impetuous models to slow down the opponent, while keeping ALL of the rest of the models hidden. Especially things like your HMGs and order-giving models. You're looking to make favorable trades that cost your opponents orders which in turn allows your Heavy-Rocket Marauders, HMG Spetz, and Chasseurs to pick fights that your opponent has no chance in winning.

Welcome to most stylish faction in the game. Best of luck.

tokenbrownguy
Apr 1, 2010

After all that I never really discussed what you brought up. Should I take Initiative or Deployment if win the LT?

It's a big choice, one that can lead to a bevy of options that depend on terrain, scenario, opposing list, and even how much time you're allowed. There's also the matter of winning or losing the initial roll. Although sometimes you'll have wanted to go first, all of the choices have some merit:

Initiative/First Turn: A good choice for when the opponent has the bigger stick. If I'm staring down a Hector-link backed by a second link with ODD that are rarin' to wreck into my frontline, this is the option I take. Hit first, take advantage of terrain, punch down your opponents ARO pieces, and move your impetuous forward before nasty formations of AROs start appearing. Also good for open maps with a sparse midline. If you take hold of a clustered map's choke points first and force the opponent into a bad spot, consider that the side of the map you receive is only as important as your ability to capitalize. That sweet snipers' perch your opponent claims is useless if your opponent's sniper gets slammed by an impetuous/smoke chain rifle without getting a chance to fire. Scenarios that have objectives worth fighting for, or are one-use-only (Supplies?), or involve an Armory all benefit from having models on point before your opponent. (Ariadna impetuous models excel at wrecking into opponents' lines when their ARO cover is brought down or ignored. Each camo/infil is a possible objective grabber and template layer that can move with impunity. A good choice, but one that can leave you overextended and vulnerable. If you're picking this to hit first, have a solid plan for each of your orders.)

Initiative/Second Turn: A important option for any of the "End of the game round/End of game turn" objectives. Sometimes, the ONLY choice to be made in those sorts of games. Unless you're utterly confident in your ability to do such harm to your opponent that they can't run key points onto sections of map/objectives when the end of round comes, why not be the player who gets to evaluate his best options? With perfect clarity, as opposed to the person who has to anticipate their opponent's every option? When last man standing in a quadrant claims the point, you'll want to activate last. Second turn is also a good choice when you're confident in your ability to ARO your opponent down, restrict their movement, or otherwise prevent them from dropping 10-17 orders worth of hate on your head. Sometimes, second turn is a choice dependent on the terrain. You think the opponent can't advance aggressively enough due to terrain that they can't strike successfully, setting them in range for your turn's blitz. (Ariadna is surprisingly tough to hurt on turn one. All of our heavy hitters can come camo'd, and with that, we're mostly immune to anything but order loss. If you can catch an overextended opponent you're in business. The business of knocking orders and heavy hitters off the board at whim with all of our big guns.)

Deployment: Deployment is a more nuanced choice, based on anticipation of your opponent. Unlike initiative, you'll very rarely not want pick of the players' DZs. You'll almost always want to see your opponent deploy first, unless you're intimately familiar with how the opponent deploys. If you know your opponent will choose First Turn/Second Turn based on the army and scenario type, and you find that anticipated choice to your liking, then choose deployment. Tonight I played a game against my rival. the dude with which I've played this game loads. We can read each other like a book at this point. We're playing Safe Area, which is where at the end of every game round (both players take a turn) you count for objective points. He chooses deployment, because he knows my Vanilla Ariadna can't stand up to beating. Meaning he knows that I know that I need the last say to ensure my points end where I need them to win. This is convenient, because he's playing a Vanilla Nomad list that loves its MSV2 smoke+Intruder HMG combo, and has those Sputniks with KrazyKoalas that love getting a chance to claim cover in the midfield. Free reign on turn one for him is a death sentence to anything exposed, and an excellent opportunity to claim board control. I like the idea of getting a chance to blitz my opponent, but I'm pretty sure that he can weather the storm and win with the combo of deployment choice and the last say at the objective. I choose second turn, despite this giving him the exact situation he wanted. (Ariadna generally brings a lot of models, and on top of all the above, we need to stash them so they're not free kills. As the thread's previous discussion about open backlines sorta indicates, you can get some sparse tables at tourneys. A legitimate pick for an 15+ model list is the slightly-denser side. Also, we love dense maps. They allow us to shove all sorts of fun impetuous right into the large template range. I won a round at the tournament that consisted of me bum-rushing a Caledonian into clustered Tohaa links that opened up almost all of his heavies for my Spetz. Felt a bit dirty.)

So the options are:

First Turn/Opponent Deployment: For the bold and the players packing an aggressive army.
Second Turn/Opponent Deployment: For the player wanting the last word or who doesn't have an aggressive list.
Choose Deployment/Opponent Initiative: For the player who wants to see the opponents army and react to the opponent's choice of army placement.

Don't hesitate to choose/be forced into any of these situations. The initial choice is as much knowing what and how your army can accomplish as winning or losing the roll.

Exmond
May 31, 2007

Writing is fun!

tokenbrownguy posted:

This thread mostly chats model releases and tourney reports, but feel free to ask any theory/metagaming questions you might have here! Infinity is a really complex game, but the rules apply universally to each army. Very little special snowflake bullshit here.

The best part about this game is that discussing the metagame and hypotheticals is not only incredibly helpful for players of all experience levels and competency, but that individual scenes play so differently that alternative perspectives can present entirely foreign strategies while using the same basic tools. My luck at my first tournament earlier this year was mostly due to running hyper-aggressive lists against a generally defensive meta.

My advice for your jump up to 300 points:
-First off, gently caress yeah, Vanilla Ariadna. Screw sectorials. Sectorials are for the factions with things like flexibility and equipment options. We've just got big guns and the cunning to make 'em stick.
-I agree almost entirely with your judgement of USAriadna. A little too punchy for my taste, when getting in fair fights is the last thing we want.
-Check out the Spetznaz profiles. The HMG Spetz can win entire games by himself. Marksman L2 means not only do you ignore cover for BS attacks, but you get shock, providing a giant middle finger with which to present to any army relying on Doctors, Paramedics, or No Wound Incap.
-Van Zant is a beast, and you'll want to pick up his model to scare your local scene into spending models to watch their backline, even if you don't bring him every time.
-The Highlander Cateran is probably one of the most cost-efficient snipers in the game. Learn to love this dude. We don't get MSV2 snipers to pierce through smoke, but this guy allows us to play the overwatch game and forces our opponents to burn orders for discovery or risk catching a sniper rifle in the face.
-Hackers are important in ITS for classifieds, but the only two worth bringing are Uxia or the regular Hacking Device Wardriver. Grass grows, sun shines, and we can't play the hacking game worth poo poo.
-Chasseurs are pure gold. Bring two. Preferably Forward Observers or Minelayers.
-Because of our lack of durability, we cannot count on defensive Turn 1 ARO fire to meaningfully hurt the opponents list. MSV2 models backed by smoke, TRO HMG bots, and overwatch links will wreck anything we leave visible. Instead, try using disposable camo ARO pieces (like the Cateran), plentiful midfield disposable camo templates, and impetuous models to slow down the opponent, while keeping ALL of the rest of the models hidden. Especially things like your HMGs and order-giving models. You're looking to make favorable trades that cost your opponents orders which in turn allows your Heavy-Rocket Marauders, HMG Spetz, and Chasseurs to pick fights that your opponent has no chance in winning.

Welcome to most stylish faction in the game. Best of luck.

I think everyone is over looking.. THE FOXTROT. May I introduce a camouflaged, infiltrating specialist for under 20 points and .5 SWC.

Also with everyone bringing their super cool killer hacking devices you can laugh in their face as nothing in your list is hackable.

I've always had a problem using the Veteran Line Kazak, what is their gimmick?

Pierzak
Oct 30, 2010

Exmond posted:

I think everyone is over looking.. THE FOXTROT. May I introduce a camouflaged, infiltrating specialist for under 20 points and .5 SWC.

Also with everyone bringing their super cool killer hacking devices you can laugh in their face as nothing in your list is hackable.

I've always had a problem using the Veteran Line Kazak, what is their gimmick?
They're not. Paying 1 point more for an LFT Chasseur means you can do suicide runs against Aleph ODD assholes and the like. And Foxtrots do and did hit the table often, they're just so plain.

Veteran Kazaks were the closes thing to an actual 2W HI in Ariadna, before the Blackjacks.

As for hacking, KHDs still give you Cybermask and are the cheapest HDs available. We'll see who laughs after you draw hack enemy/hack HVT as your classified :v:

grassy gnoll
Aug 27, 2006

The pawsting business is tough work.
So what did Ariadna play like, back in the bad old days before the dawn of Freedom? I think I've heard of one guy who used to run Caledonia, but I've never actually seen it, and the only other non-USA lists I've seen are heavy on Russians and cheap Scots.

Issaries
Sep 15, 2008

"Negotiations were going well. They were very impressed by my hat." -Issaries the Concilliator"

tokenbrownguy posted:

So the options are:

First Turn/Opponent Deployment: For the bold and the players packing an aggressive army.
Second Turn/Opponent Deployment: For the player wanting the last word or who doesn't have an aggressive list.
Choose Deployment/Opponent Initiative: For the player who wants to see the opponents army and react to the opponent's choice of army placement.

Don't hesitate to choose/be forced into any of these situations. The initial choice is as much knowing what and how your army can accomplish as winning or losing the roll.

Do people actually pick move second, instead of just making opponent deploy first and getting play 2nd 99% certainly'?

Having to deploy 1st and giving opponent the 1st turn sounds brutal.

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tokenbrownguy
Apr 1, 2010

grassy gnoll posted:

So what did Ariadna play like, back in the bad old days before the dawn of Freedom? I think I've heard of one guy who used to run Caledonia, but I've never actually seen it, and the only other non-USA lists I've seen are heavy on Russians and cheap Scots.

Are you referring to Vanilla? If so, no much different that it plays now. My list only has a Marauder packing MSV1/ HRL and a Desperado from USAriadna. As a whole, Vanilla Ariadna is about avoiding any fight it can't win.

adhuin posted:

Do people actually pick move second, instead of just making opponent deploy first and getting play 2nd 99% certainly'?

Having to deploy 1st and giving opponent the 1st turn sounds brutal.

I won the game I gave in the above example of exactly that last night. Game was Safe Area, Vanilla Nomad vs. Vanilla Ariadna. His first turn my bud picked off a couple models with his MSV2 HMG + smoke shenanigans and moved his Sputniks forward, but I had a Chasseur infil'd on top of a large building in the midfield, and his push forward opened up his back line to Suprise Shot rifle fire. His second turn he didn't pull a single model, instead trying to handle my Cateran which had overwatch to the entire map, but failed to discover it twice. My second turn I dropped an Airborne ranger and Van Zant into his weak half of the map and proceeded to start removing models. He conceded after that, because he wasn't going to have the punch to contest me for quadrants because I had the final word.

Giving your opponent DZ choice and first turn is brutal, but if you've brought the right models you can probably weather the storm and winning the objective at the end of game/round is more important than not losing models.

tokenbrownguy fucked around with this message at 21:21 on May 31, 2016

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