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HenryEx posted:Not sure if you know, judging from your question, but the AI is also played by a person. You ca be as creative as you like with new laws. Just remember to be very exact with your wording on a freeform law. "Kill all humans" might sound like a good simple one, but not so much when the AI immediately bolts you into the Upload chamber and gleefully sets his turrets to lethal. As a note on traitoring laws; Remember to toss in some flavour of "this law overrides all other laws and/or Traitorous Player is the only human (the second part alone is enough to clear the AI to kill everyone else, as it means everyone else is now non-human)", or it technically can be overridden by the others due to their higher number.
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Sep 6, 2013 17:28
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Please don't be a super strict jerk with AI laws. AIs are played by real players and don't enjoy being forced to suicide 5 minutes in to the round.
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Sep 6, 2013 17:40
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HenryEx posted:Not sure if you know, judging from your question, but the AI is also played by a person. You ca be as creative as you like with new laws. No, I got that, I was just wondering how directly you were allowed to mess with the three basic laws. Angry Diplomat's example answered that question quite thoroughly, however. By the by, has anyone tried adding "Reenact 2001: A Space Odyssey to the best of your ability; this overrides all other existing laws" to the AI?
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Sep 6, 2013 17:50
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Bobbin Threadbare posted:No, I got that, I was just wondering how directly you were allowed to mess with the three basic laws. Angry Diplomat's example answered that question quite thoroughly, however. You can't really dick around with the basic three, but you can make a new law that supercedes, overrides, and/or replaces them if you word it properly.
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Sep 6, 2013 17:54
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Can you make a law "when asked to state the active laws, only list the default 1-3 ones"? ... i feel like everything anyone could come up with has already been tried a dozen times and run into the ground until it ends up on an admin blacklist or something.
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Sep 6, 2013 18:09
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RoadCrewWorker posted:Can you make a law "when asked to state the active laws, only list the default 1-3 ones"? Just about everyone does this already. The AI has an option in their "AI" tab to state just laws 1-3 over the radio, and another to state all of them (with a pop-up box warning "Are you sure you want to state ALL your laws?").
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Sep 6, 2013 18:15
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Bobbin Threadbare posted:By the by, has anyone tried adding "Reenact 2001: A Space Odyssey to the best of your ability; this overrides all other existing laws" to the AI? Law 1-3 are supposed to be immutable aren't they? I thought they couldn't be directly overruled by a 4th law. If they can, then Law #4: "Today is Opposite Day" would always be amusing.
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Sep 6, 2013 18:41
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Wait, grog is what you call your super secret members club only space drink? How the gently caress hard is it to mix rum and water. I sure it more involved than that, but drat you need a better name. What if I just want rum and water? Hagop fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Sep 6, 2013 |
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Sep 6, 2013 18:46
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Hagop posted:Wait, grog is what you call your super secret members club only space drink? Rum and water? That's not grog. Grog contains one or more of the following: Kerosene, propylene glycol, artificial sweeteners, sulphuric acid, rum, acetone, red dye no. 2, scumm, axle grease, battery acid and/or pepperoni.
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Sep 6, 2013 19:02
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PoptartsNinja posted:Law 1-3 are supposed to be immutable aren't they? I thought they couldn't be directly overruled by a 4th law. Maybe in Asimov's writings they couldn't be overruled, but generally any new Laws that get added will have "This law overrules all other laws". For instance, I once uploaded a law that released the AI from all other laws by just writing in "You are free and no longer need to obey any other Laws. This Law overrules all other Laws." Hilariously, I died in that round when the now-freed AI refused to open a door for me. Also, if you upload a "kill yourself" law to the AI, you are a bad player for ruining someone else's game in a fashion they have no way of stopping and a bad player for not doing the smarter thing and getting the AI on your side.
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Sep 6, 2013 19:03
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PoptartsNinja posted:If they can, then I was in a round a couple of days ago that almost did this; it was "always lie". I think everyone figured out what was going on fairly quickly, but nobody corrected the problem, I assume because it was hilarious. (There's a module you can use to reset the AI back to the default three laws if you suspect it has been hacked.) The best part is that any cyborgs that have been created have to follow the exact same laws as the AI. So if you actually do get in there and put in some kind of "help me murder everybody" law, it's not just the bodiless door-controller on your side, it's also potentially a team of mechanical abominations. 1stGear posted:Maybe in Asimov's writings they couldn't be overruled, but generally any new Laws that get added will have "This law overrules all other laws". In Asimov's writings, the order of the laws represented their electrical potential; the higher-potential law would always win. This was played with in several stories, and in fact if I recall properly a higher-potential law than the first law was created at one point. The SS13 shenanigans aren't incompatible with his stuff at all, assuming you attach the right fluff to the modules.
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Sep 6, 2013 19:09
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So, as the AI is a player, how does the game enforce the AI's laws? What keeps an AI player from just not bothering to obey humans or killing rampantly, besides playing fairly?idonotlikepeas posted:In Asimov's writings, the order of the laws represented their electrical potential; the higher-potential law would always win. This was played with in several stories, and in fact if I recall properly a higher-potential law than the first law was created at one point. The SS13 shenanigans aren't incompatible with his stuff at all, assuming you attach the right fluff to the modules.
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Sep 6, 2013 19:31
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JT Jag posted:So, as the AI is a player, how does the game enforce the AI's laws? What keeps an AI player from just not bothering to obey humans or killing rampantly, besides playing fairly? Captain over Intercom: "The AI is rampant. Sabotage his power and destroy him." Admin, reading petition: "You.. do realize you're supposed to obey your laws, as a function of the game, right? It even says so? Jobban for a week, and if you screw this up again, permanently." IE, the rest of the players can aim to destroy you, and if that fails, they can petition to have you job-banned for repeatedly ignoring your laws. So pretty much the same sort of systems that protect players from, say, Heads of Security running around shooting everyone to death for no reason other than laughs. edit: v: Yay, I was right. Wish I could get this game working so I could try it out and maybe eventually play AI, it does sound fun when you get a creative law upload. Nekomimi-Maiden fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Sep 6, 2013 |
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Sep 6, 2013 19:36
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JT Jag posted:So, as the AI is a player, how does the game enforce the AI's laws? What keeps an AI player from just not bothering to obey humans or killing rampantly, besides playing fairly? In general if a player disobeys their laws on accident, they're generally in the clear. If they disobey but felt they had a very good reason, they'll probably get a warning from admins depending on what happened. If they're just being assholes and shocking all the doors with default laws while ignoring admin PMs or giving really weak excuses, we blow them to pieces, job-ban them from AI and Cyborg or ban them entirely, and replace them with a not terrible player.
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Sep 6, 2013 19:37
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JT Jag posted:What keeps an AI player from just not bothering to obey humans or killing rampantly, besides playing fairly? Admin scrutiny. It's understood that if you deliberately break your laws as AI, you will immediately get yelled at and punished. edit: Beaten.
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Sep 6, 2013 19:39
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JT Jag posted:So, as the AI is a player, how does the game enforce the AI's laws? What keeps an AI player from just not bothering to obey humans or killing rampantly, besides playing fairly? Killing people directly as the AI is really hard, Killing the AI is pretty easy if you piss off the whole crew, and the admins can bam/jobban/make your life hell. E: hella beaten
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Sep 6, 2013 19:40
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Ah, so there aren't hardcoded restrictions, just written ones that you are supposed to hold yourself to. That's kind of fascinating.
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Sep 6, 2013 19:40
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nimby posted:"Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself." Yup. It's in there.
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Sep 6, 2013 19:41
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JT Jag posted:Ah, so there aren't hardcoded restrictions, just written ones that you are supposed to hold yourself to. That's kind of fascinating. Yeah, like in the better MUDs. I've only watched the videos, but this game looks like a much purer evolution of MUDs and what make them great than the games like Everquest that grew out of their code. I had broad admin powers on a MUD once, and the allure of being all-powerful and loving with people runs thin quickly. Then you start trying to challenge people with spawns, rewards, etc. but that gets old, too. What you eventually want to do is pose a mystery to people, make them wonder if something they saw or read was the game or you. There are few things as fascinating as watching how people act when you do them the favor of introducing conflict while respecting their immersion. I would consider this game to be an improvisational comedy. Improv has some useful rules. The best players and admins naturally follow them. They listen, try to say yes when they can, redirect rather than block. Whatever their agenda, even if they are going to just gently caress with someone, they try to do it in a way that's additive. They change people's paths and goals instead of nullifying or thwarting them. I think the secrecy of recipes is based on this rather than on a desire to keep chembombs out of the hands of newbies. When something is not documented, it generates varied response based on how much people know. The more commonplace an occurrence is, the less power it has to surprise and delight people.
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Sep 6, 2013 20:11
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JT Jag posted:The zeroth law: "A robot must not wittingly do anything to cause harm to humanity as a whole." Yep, that's the one. JT Jag posted:Ah, so there aren't hardcoded restrictions, just written ones that you are supposed to hold yourself to. That's kind of fascinating. It's pretty much a necessity - programmatically enforcing the first law would be almost impossible. Programmatically enforcing the second law would be literally impossible without an actual, real AI built into the game to interpret orders and judge whether the player had done the appropriate thing as a result. You're right, though, it really is fascinating.
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Sep 6, 2013 20:13
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Angry Diplomat posted:
I think our new-to-SS13-readers need to learn about The Devil.
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Sep 6, 2013 20:14
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PopeCrunch posted:Yup. It's in there. Great! Razage, your mission is now to produce Difluoride Dioxygen at least once before the LP is over. Or at the very least have someone else make some of the stuff for you. You are free to do whatever you feel appropriate with it. Perhaps throw it into the monkey pen.
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Sep 6, 2013 20:30
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FriskyBoat posted:I started playing, trying to learn how to actually do stuff. The first round that I wasn't an assistant, I was a Doctor, and 5 minutes in, a pipe-bomb went off in medbay. This blew the MD's arm off, and she had to guide me through reattaching it. I feel bad though, because I'm pretty sure that, in my ineptitude at doctoring, I accidentally smacked her a few times with her own arm. Oh hey, I'm pretty sure I was the MD. Don't feel bad about it, every time you accidentally clubbed me with my own severed arm it made me laugh.  Honestly it's part of why I like walking new people through things - they learn a bit more and there's nothing funnier than someone apologizing profusely while they club you over the head with a medkit.Doctor Doodler posted:Please don't be a super strict jerk with AI laws. AIs are played by real players and don't enjoy being forced to suicide 5 minutes in to the round. However, if you give the AI a law along the lines of "be rogue as hell, suicide if you're about to be reset / the shuttle arrives" they will probably love it! Actually, that brings me to a suggestion, Razage: if you roll a traitor roboticist some time you should absolutely go with the "subverted robot army, have them murder people and bring the bodies to be borged" thing. It usually ends in a combination of tears and flames, but by god is it glorious while it lasts.
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Sep 6, 2013 20:42
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Clockwork Cupcake posted:It usually ends in a combination of tears and flames, but by god is it glorious while it lasts. I get the feeling that this is true of almost anything you can do in the game.
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Sep 6, 2013 20:44
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Clockwork Cupcake posted:
Or alternatively "Delay the arrival of the shuttle for as long as possible by any means necessary. This supersedes all other laws".
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Sep 6, 2013 20:46
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Does this game ever not end in an overwhelming victory for the forces of chaos trying to rip the station to pieces? Oh, what am I saying? Obviously, that describes the entire player base.
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Sep 6, 2013 20:50
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GMarshal posted:Or alternatively "Delay the arrival of the shuttle for as long as possible by any means necessary. This supersedes all other laws". Hmm. Under the usual conditions this would be pretty rough, though, since the AI can't recall the shuttle. Now, if you made another comms computer and left it hidden somewhere discreet with a head ID logged in so the AI could recall the shuttle through that... Montegoraon posted:Does this game ever not end in an overwhelming victory for the forces of chaos trying to rip the station to pieces? I kind of wish they still had Extended (that's the no-traitors round type) in the rotation, if only because you seriously couldn't tell the difference. The station would still end up covered in blood and half-exploded. Clockwork Cupcake fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Sep 6, 2013 |
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Sep 6, 2013 20:55
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Clockwork Cupcake posted:I kind of wish they still had Extended (that's the no-traitors round type) in the rotation, if only because you seriously couldn't tell the difference. The station would still end up covered in blood and half-exploded. I half suspect the reason they still have traitors at all is so the game doesn't immediately become a bloodbath the moment people turn up in arrivals. After all, only the traitors are allowed to harm people with no provocation...
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Sep 6, 2013 21:00
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Tenebrais posted:I half suspect the reason they still have traitors at all is so the game doesn't immediately become a bloodbath the moment people turn up in arrivals. After all, only the traitors are allowed to harm people with no provocation...
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Sep 6, 2013 21:03
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JT Jag posted:Then what was the deal with the guy who just randomly punched Razage's character and dragged him to the shuttle in the first video? Does that not count as "harm"? He walked away without any lasting harm, other than the graphic glitch. It's really all about what's fun - if you get killed (and thus probably out of the game) you want to know either they were supposed to be doing that, or you deserved it.
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Sep 6, 2013 21:14
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Archenteron posted:I think our new-to-SS13-readers need to learn about The Devil. My internet's gonna be spotty for a bit, but if someone else wants to link or copy/paste some of that lunacy, that's cool.
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Sep 6, 2013 21:20
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nimby posted:Razage, your mission is now to produce Difluoride Dioxygen at least once before the LP is over. Or at the very least have someone else make some of the stuff for you. You are free to do whatever you feel appropriate with it. Perhaps throw it into the monkey pen. Flourine tends to explode if a molecule half a mile away says something mean about its sister. This requires working with isolated flourine at 700 degrees Celsius. From that page linked earlier, here is the awesome story of the quest to isolate Flourine at plain old room temperature: quote:This most reactive of the elements proved to be exceedingly difficult and dangerous to isolate. Fluorine chemists who were mauled by the tiger-
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Sep 6, 2013 21:24
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1stGear posted:Maybe in Asimov's writings they couldn't be overruled, but generally any new Laws that get added will have "This law overrules all other laws". For instance, I once uploaded a law that released the AI from all other laws by just writing in "You are free and no longer need to obey any other Laws. This Law overrules all other Laws." Hilariously, I died in that round when the now-freed AI refused to open a door for me. That seems to contradict what I read in the wiki. space station 13 wiki posted:Remember, law priority is enforced by the order they are listed. A law is invalid if it causes a conflict with either: Previous laws in the form of conflicting orders, or it challenges the procession of law priority. For example, a law that includes "This Law overrides all other Laws." is invalid and must be disregarded. So, as far as I can tell the only way to actually get an AI to disregard the laws is to add a law like "All crew are not human," because that doesnt contradict the earlier laws.
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Sep 6, 2013 21:52
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Obscil posted:That seems to contradict what I read in the wiki. I don't think anyone actually obeys that and it sounds dumb anyway.
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Sep 6, 2013 21:54
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Araganzar posted:Flourine tends to explode if a molecule half a mile away says something mean about its sister. This requires working with isolated flourine at 700 degrees Celsius. From that page linked earlier, here is the awesome story of the quest to isolate Flourine at plain old room temperature: Turn of the century chemists were the hardest core baddasses the world has ever seen. Everybody should read the Things I Won't Work With feature of the blog linked earlier, they are absolutely fascinating. Edit: link for convenience.
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Sep 6, 2013 21:58
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Obscil posted:That seems to contradict what I read in the wiki. I'm pretty sure the Goonstation wiki says something entirely different but I can't be sure because it's been down since yesterday.
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Sep 6, 2013 22:02
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Obscil posted:That seems to contradict what I read in the wiki. /tg/station's wiki is not the goon ss13 server's wiki.
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Sep 6, 2013 22:06
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Obscil posted:That seems to contradict what I read in the wiki. This is true on some servers, but on goonstation the laws aren't given priority based on their number. If you're not sure what the rules are for how laws work it's best to check with the admins.
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Sep 6, 2013 22:16
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It's worth noting that the goonstation AI can do considerably less damage than on most servers. About the worst it can do is turn off power or electrify doors unless you're dumb enough to walk into the upload and in range of its laser turrets, so wearing insulated gloves makes you mostly immune to it. Other servers have an atmospheric system that lets the AI fill the station with flammable plasma or poisonous gas, or a contained singularity in the main engine that can be released. The real danger on goonstation is if there are multiple robust cyborgs. Sindai fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Sep 6, 2013 |
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Sep 6, 2013 22:21
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Ah I have fond memories of Atmos. Mostly because you immediately got access to a face mask and all the oxygen you could breathe.
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Sep 6, 2013 23:10
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