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An Old Boot posted:I just want to state for the record that Leelee is a dick for making that Inquisition song get stuck in my head every time I see the thread title. It's all I can think of when I hear the title anyway. For you! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbcyiFt5VEs
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Sep 15, 2013 12:24
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I didn't even realize the reference until I remembered that song, now I feel dumb. They technically aren't the same thing though because the Thedas Inquisition isn't religious-based at all  EDIT: It is loving stupid though. I mean, it doesn't have to be religious based, but going around Thedas... observing things is actually the exact opposite of what an Inquisition is. Sex Beef 2.0 fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Sep 15, 2013 |
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Sep 15, 2013 20:01
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TheWorldIsSquare posted:EDIT: It is loving stupid though. I mean, it doesn't have to be religious based, but going around Thedas... observing things is actually the exact opposite of what an Inquisition is. inquīsītĭo , ōnis I. a seeking or searching for. ... II. Transf., a searching or inquiring into, an examination. ... B. In partic., a seeking for proofs or grounds in support of an accusation, a legal inquisition. It's from the same root as inquire. Even the torturous medieval Inquisitions were nominally (and often also in actual fact) tribunal bodies for religious orthodoxy who looked to establish evidence and prove guilt or innocence. That brutal human rights violations became involved had little to do with the concept of any Inquisition itself, and far more to do with the medieval/Renaissance legal system and its methods of acquiring evidence as whole, augmented by fanaticism. Observing, collecting data, try to comprehend an issue to come to judgement - this is precisely what an Inquisition is at heart, however certain manifestations have historically played out. And I'll emphasise again that even the historical Inquisitions didn't always jump straight to cackling madly and putting the thumbscrews on people. Sleep of Bronze fucked around with this message at 21:02 on Sep 15, 2013 |
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Sep 15, 2013 20:59
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TheWorldIsSquare posted:They technically aren't the same thing though because the Thedas Inquisition isn't religious-based at all The name Inquisition does annoy me a bit. Apparently in The World of Thedas it's suggested that the organisation called itself "The Seekers of Truth" and "Inquisition" was what people began to call it due to the Seekers' harsh and cruel methods of finding heretics, bloodmages and whatnot. The problem I have with that is that Thedas doesn't seem to have something like the Spanish Inquisition in it's history. So it lacks the context to actually give that negative meaning of "a religious organisation that investigates heresy and employs cruel methods" to the word inquisition. I may be being pedantic, but I think using a word like inquisition in this way is not the best way to build your world. Also, people are undoubtedly going to make comparisons to the Spanish Inquisition, which will probably lead to confusion.
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Sep 15, 2013 21:00
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Sleep of Bronze posted:Not at all? But does the Thedas Inquisition actually do that? They're not accusing anyone of anything, aren't they just another Jedi/Spectre/Grey Warden autonomous military organization meant to... do something about the mage vs. templar war? I don't know, they haven't explained it well so far. ^ Yeah, maybe the word fits and maybe it doesn't but using a word that is usually applied to infamous medieval organizations which is a huge subject in history is really clumsy and bound to create confusion.
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Sep 15, 2013 21:02
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TheWorldIsSquare posted:But does the Thedas Inquisition actually do that? They're not accusing anyone of anything, aren't they just another Jedi/Spectre/Grey Warden autonomous military organization meant to... do something about the mage vs. templar war? I don't know, they haven't explained it well so far. I doubt we will be doing this in DA3, but I guess the original group did accuse people of being a blood mage, or worshipping big dragons, similarly to how the real-world inquisition accused people of heresy. Raygereio fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Sep 15, 2013 |
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Sep 15, 2013 21:06
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I always liked when the story behind the Golden/Black City was more vague. I liked in DA:O when you wonder if that story is real or just a fable. Too bad DA2 came along and said "NOPE! CHANTRY WAS RIGHT. MAGES SUCK" I just hate in fantasy games where all divine history is known.
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Sep 15, 2013 21:20
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Mordiceius posted:I always liked when the story behind the Golden/Black City was more vague. I liked in DA:O when you wonder if that story is real or just a fable. Too bad DA2 came along and said "NOPE! CHANTRY WAS RIGHT. MAGES SUCK" The most interesting thing about the Fade in Dragon Age:Origins was that you could see the Black City from any part of it. No matter where you are in the Fade, the Black City will be visible. Obviously this means it has huge importance, but does that mean the Chantry's story is correct? Could it just be that because so many people believe it that the Black City manifested itself in the Fade based on their dreams? It was neat since there was no clear answer. I haven't played that DLC in DA 2 that supposedly ruins all of this, but to just come out and say the Chantry's story is 100% correct seems...stupid. Really stupid. You come up with a really cool idea then you just stomp all over it. I think it's pretty obvious though that DA 3 will end with you going to the Black City and confronting The Maker/Andraste/Mega Pride Demon/Flemeth/Whatever.
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Sep 15, 2013 21:58
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Internet Kraken posted:I haven't played that DLC in DA 2 that supposedly ruins all of this, but to just come out and say the Chantry's story is 100% correct seems...stupid. Really stupid. You come up with a really cool idea then you just stomp all over it. The DLC doesn't say the Chantry's story is 100% correct. The opposite, actually. The magisters arrived there and it was already black and corrupted. The Golden City was never there.
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Sep 15, 2013 22:07
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In Dragon Age Origins, if you tell people you don't believe in the Maker or Andraste, some of them will get quite pissed. I remember the priestess in Ostagar all but condemns you. What I'm curious about is if they're going to let you state your own level of belief as leader of the Inquisition. Sure the original was formed by the hardcore believers, but this is a new Inquisition meant to stop a war and save the world. Are they going to force you to believe to some extent, and if not, how badly are you going to piss people off for being an atheist or heathen in charge of what many people see as a religious group? I imagine qunari inquisitors are going to have to deal with that perception a lot by default. marshmallow creep fucked around with this message at 23:14 on Sep 15, 2013 |
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Sep 15, 2013 23:11
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Mordiceius posted:I always liked when the story behind the Golden/Black City was more vague. I liked in DA:O when you wonder if that story is real or just a fable. Too bad DA2 came along and said "NOPE! CHANTRY WAS RIGHT. MAGES SUCK" You are 100% incorrect on DA2 saying this. As others have pointed out, what they actually did explained nothing, and the info actually contemplates things further. Remember, in DA:O the Black City was visible, so we could assume a portion of the mythology was true. What we learned actually complicated this assumption.
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Sep 16, 2013 00:00
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Party in the UAE posted:You are 100% incorrect on DA2 saying this. As others have pointed out, what they actually did explained nothing, and the info actually contemplates things further. Remember, in DA:O the Black City was visible, so we could assume a portion of the mythology was true. The chantry claims that darkspawn were created to punish man for trespassing into the golden city, that the golden city turned black when mages entered it, that magic is meant to serve mankind, not rule over it etc. Everything about the religion seems to come from post hoc explanations of observations made by people who hate mages. The whole Andraste thing was weird but Oghren made a note that the temple that held her ashes was one of the most lyrium dense places he's every seen, so it's likely magic in some form is at the root of every mystery and poorly explained belief.
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Sep 16, 2013 00:24
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TheWorldIsSquare posted:But does the Thedas Inquisition actually do that? They're not accusing anyone of anything, aren't they just another Jedi/Spectre/Grey Warden autonomous military organization meant to... do something about the mage vs. templar war? I don't know, they haven't explained it well so far. I don't know why they didn't go with The Thedasamo - The Dragon Age Setting Autonomous Military Organization. Should've stuck with what works.
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Sep 16, 2013 02:00
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I don't understand why they're saying the Inquisition in non-religious when all the artwork depicts them covered in the symbol of the Maker.
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Sep 16, 2013 06:44
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MantisToboggan posted:I don't understand why they're saying the Inquisition in non-religious when all the artwork depicts them covered in the symbol of the Maker. What artwork are you looking at? In the concept art the only Inquisitor we see with anything that could be taken as the Maker's symbol is the guy with the shield-- and even that's an adjusted version of the traditional sunburst.
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Sep 16, 2013 07:11
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Looking it up, the official symbol of the Seekers of Truth is a sunburst with an open eye. The connection to their job is obvious, all seeing eye, bringing light into the darkness etc. Interestingly their sunburst is of a different design than the one the Chantry uses (simple sunburst with the rays all aligned counter-clockwise) which is also different from the symbol of the Maker (sunburst with elongated and intertwined rays at 12, 3, 6 and 9 o'clock, and a red circle crossing/connecting the elongated rays and a black circle inside the sunburst itself) and different from the symbol of the first inquisition (sunburst with the open eye and a downward oriented sword behind the eye). But we do not know what symbol the new inquisition will use. Did the Seekers/Chantry split occur after the ending of DA2?
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Sep 17, 2013 16:54
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Torrannor posted:Did the Seekers/Chantry split occur after the ending of DA2?
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Sep 17, 2013 17:13
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pentyne posted:The chantry claims that darkspawn were created to punish man for trespassing into the golden city, that the golden city turned black when mages entered it, that magic is meant to serve mankind, not rule over it etc. Everything about the religion seems to come from post hoc explanations of observations made by people who hate mages. The whole Andraste thing was weird but Oghren made a note that the temple that held her ashes was one of the most lyrium dense places he's every seen, so it's likely magic in some form is at the root of every mystery and poorly explained belief. Well mages are pretty awful in every meaningful way. As for the Black City, smart money is on it being Arlathan
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Sep 17, 2013 17:16
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Captain Oblivious posted:Well mages are pretty awful in every meaningful way. I would like that too. I don't know where, but somehow I got the impression that elven gods and the old gods of the Tevinter Imperium are somehow related. vvv: caught me before my edit. marshmallow creep fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Sep 17, 2013 |
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Sep 17, 2013 17:28
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Lotish posted:Someone correct me if I've misunderstood this, but I think the archdaemons having names of elven gods goes towards confirming this. And is honestly a lot more interesting to me than the anything to do with an omnipotent creator deity. The Arch-Demons are named after Tevinter Old Gods, not elven deities. The real clue is: The Eluvian originally showed the Black City before shattering. Why are elven artifacts allegedly used for inter-elven empire communication pointing to the Black City? Five bucks says Fen'Harel, the Dread Wolf, was waiting for the Magisters in the Black City and turned their corrupted asses loose on the world as a very indirect way of assassinating the Old Gods
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Sep 17, 2013 17:29
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Captain Oblivious posted:The Arch-Demons are named after Tevinter Old Gods, not elven deities. I think my favorite theory is that Fen'Harel is masquerading as the Maker
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Sep 17, 2013 17:36
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Bedlamdan posted:I think my favorite theory is that Fen'Harel is masquerading as the Maker And you just know that Fen'Harel is going to end up being some impossibly old elven Mage Lord of Arlathan so it's all going to come back to "mages are awful, kill everyone with super powers they aren't worth the risk" 
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Sep 17, 2013 17:39
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Captain Oblivious posted:The Arch-Demons are named after Tevinter Old Gods, not elven deities. Although aren't there supposed to be a race of "evil gods" mentioned in opposition to the elven deities that could be the old gods/archdemons? edit: the Forgotten Ones: http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Elven_pantheon#The_Forgotten_Ones
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Sep 17, 2013 18:06
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You know, I remember caring about the lore the first time I played the game, but for some reason I found it difficult to keep interested after a while. I think it was just this general feeling that, especially regards to magic and the player, the lore doesn't inform or enforce the gameplay, so there's a disconnect. DA2 aggravated the problem because it focused on the wrong aspect of the lore (templars and mages) and all the interesting stuff was really out of the way or in DLC I wouldn't pay for. It'll be interesting if they can make the lore engaging again in DA:I.
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Sep 18, 2013 01:09
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Lotish posted:You know, I remember caring about the lore the first time I played the game, but for some reason I found it difficult to keep interested after a while. I think it was just this general feeling that, especially regards to magic and the player, the lore doesn't inform or enforce the gameplay, so there's a disconnect. DA2 aggravated the problem because it focused on the wrong aspect of the lore (templars and mages) and all the interesting stuff was really out of the way or in DLC I wouldn't pay for. It'll be interesting if they can make the lore engaging again in DA:I. A lot of the issue for me was that it was in some godawful font I could barely read, especially before I had an HDTV to play on. Also, I think the codex would be vastly improved if the entries were all read by Simon Templeman.
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Sep 18, 2013 01:16
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losonti tokash posted:Also, I think the codex would be vastly improved if the entries were all read by Simon Templeman. The same could be said for pretty much anything. He could out-narrate Morgan Freeman by merely phoning it in.
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Sep 18, 2013 01:17
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Lotish posted:You know, I remember caring about the lore the first time I played the game, but for some reason I found it difficult to keep interested after a while. I think it was just this general feeling that, especially regards to magic and the player, the lore doesn't inform or enforce the gameplay, so there's a disconnect. DA2 aggravated the problem because it focused on the wrong aspect of the lore (templars and mages) and all the interesting stuff was really out of the way or in DLC I wouldn't pay for. It'll be interesting if they can make the lore engaging again in DA:I. There was a big tone shift from DAO to DA2 as well. I'm not sure how to exactly describe it, but anyone that's played both of them knows what I'm talking about. The first one took itself fairly seriously and had some really cool dungeons and set pieces like Andraste's Ashes and the Deep Roads. DA2 was way too self-referential and tongue-in-cheek for me. They did manage to shoot the moon with the quest regarding Hawke's Mom, though. That was some outstanding poo poo, there. Go big or go home.
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Sep 18, 2013 01:37
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I mentioned it earlier in the thread but there is a huge disconnect between what the lore says and what you actually see in the game. the world as described by the DA:O codex entries sounds way more interesting than what you actually see. I really like the lore but their descriptions are more interesting than the actual game.
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Sep 18, 2013 01:41
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Everytime I play DA:O I pledge I'm going to read all the Codex entries and really get the game. I give up when I get to Ostagar. It's just too much.
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Sep 18, 2013 01:46
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Internet Kraken posted:I mentioned it earlier in the thread but there is a huge disconnect between what the lore says and what you actually see in the game. the world as described by the DA:O codex entries sounds way more interesting than what you actually see. I really like the lore but their descriptions are more interesting than the actual game.
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Sep 18, 2013 01:54
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Internet Kraken posted:I mentioned it earlier in the thread but there is a huge disconnect between what the lore says and what you actually see in the game. the world as described by the DA:O codex entries sounds way more interesting than what you actually see. I really like the lore but their descriptions are more interesting than the actual game. The Elder Scrolls games do this, too. In Skyrim, Alduin flapped around and killed some random city guards, but in the next one, guaranteed, there will be books that talk about him leveling cities and razing the countryside and such. It doesn't bother me too much.
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Sep 18, 2013 02:03
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Blue Raider posted:The Elder Scrolls games do this, too. In Skyrim, Alduin flapped around and killed some random city guards, but in the next one, guaranteed, there will be books that talk about him leveling cities and razing the countryside and such. It doesn't bother me too much. Well, it doesn't bother me much in Elder Scrolls games because it feels like the lore there is mostly just flavor text. It's just there to entertain you. In DA:O the codex feels like it is supposed to give you more insight into the world like the ME codex those. There is such a huge disconnect between what the codex says and you actually see though it ends up annoying me. Plus in the Elder Scrolls, typically the lore you read about isn't what you are directly interacting with. In DA:O you read lore about the Darkspawn that makes them sound terrifying, then you fight them a minute later and they are just violent orc monsters. It leaves me disappointed since I was expecting something much more interesting, and the game set it up! EDIT: As an example, even sequences in DA:O I thought were well done the first time I played were lame in comparison to what the lore paints them as. I thought the broodmother part was good, but when you read the darkspawn lore you realize it should be so much creepier. You should be walking into complete darkness. Only the most limited amount of light can be found as you descend into tunnels filled with nothing but blight. Then you encounter a creature that is a living engine of decay, forever churning out monsters that poison the land itself. Something like that should overwhelm you with the corruption that seeps from the walls itself. But it's just a big fleshy monster in a tentacle chamber. Which yeah might be creepy, but the lore itself paints a much more interesting encounter. VVV Don't really agree with that. Most of the stuff I read in the ME codex felt in line with what I saw in the game. I can't think of any moments where I read something in the codex that the game didn't capture the feeling of. Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 02:14 on Sep 18, 2013 |
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Sep 18, 2013 02:08
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To be fair the ME codex was about as unlike the actual game as DA's. Much implied harder sci-fi in there than in gameplay.
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Sep 18, 2013 02:10
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Blue Raider posted:The Elder Scrolls games do this, too. In Skyrim, Alduin flapped around and killed some random city guards, but in the next one, guaranteed, there will be books that talk about him leveling cities and razing the countryside and such. It doesn't bother me too much. Imagine Skyrim on the Frostbite 3 engine. That whole Helgen sequence would have been monumental and elder dragon attacks on the towns and cities would have been hilarious. "So, uhm, I was supposed to meet Delphine in Riverwood but the map marker takes me to a crater. Help!" I agree on the lore thing though, Alduin will be played up as a world-ending titan come TESVI. The historical accuracy lens has always been a bit cloudy and warped.
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Sep 18, 2013 02:14
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Captain Oblivious posted:Well mages are pretty awful in every meaningful way. Arlathan being the Black City would require the following: 1. The Arlathan Forest located east of the Tevinter Imperium being a misnomer. 2. The magisters of the Tevinter Imperium, who named the Golden/Black City, somehow failing to notice that the elven city they destroyed was located in the Fade. 3. Every geographic detail provided in the Codex Entry: Arlathan being incorrect. Example: "The humans first arrived from Par Vollen to the north." 4. The statement, "it is said that the Tevinter magisters used their great destructive power to force the very ground to swallow Arlathan whole," being a metaphor. Regardless, Bioware will do whatever. Flemeth could be an Old God. Anders/Justice/Vengeance could reappear in the Fade. Leiliana could spontaneously reattach her decapitated head. It would be stupid, but it would not be the first time.
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Sep 18, 2013 03:49
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Merry Magpie posted:Arlathan being the Black City would require the following: It wouldn't be the first time that misleading lore had been inserted into a video game, or indeed into real history to mask the actual facts by those who did not wish them known. In this case it's an enormous stretch, though one I wouldn't exactly be completely surprised by if they did decide to throw it as a curveball to keep things interesting, despite the fact that as you said there are several large fallacies that it would create. quote:Leiliana could spontaneously reattach her decapitated head. Wait what? I don't remember this and I don't have it in me right now to reinstall DA2 and play through it to find the beheading you're on about. Where did this happen?
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Sep 18, 2013 04:01
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Internet Kraken posted:VVV Don't really agree with that. Most of the stuff I read in the ME codex felt in line with what I saw in the game. I can't think of any moments where I read something in the codex that the game didn't capture the feeling of. Almost everything the ME codex says about space combat is completely contradicted any time it's shown on screen. The biggest offenders of this are when Sovereign attacks the Citadel in 1 and the battle for Earth at the end of 3. The first one because the codex goes to great pains to talk about how missiles are obsolete and useless because everyone has super accurate lasers that instantly shoot them down, but in the cutscene there are missiles loving everywhere blowing everything right the hell up. Earth is also pretty bad because they talk about all kinds of things in the codex like frigate picket lines and BVR combat and god knows what else, but the actual battle they show is just a giant blob fight where everyone stands perfectly still and hammers on each other. Plus the laser systems they mention don't actually behave like lasers in cutscenes but that's par for the course for scifi at this point. quote:Wait what? I don't remember this and I don't have it in me right now to reinstall DA2 and play through it to find the beheading you're on about. Where did this happen? He just means that you can literally cut her head off in DA1 but she'll still be alive in 2 if you import that save.
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Sep 18, 2013 04:02
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losonti tokash posted:He just means that you can literally cut her head off in DA1 but she'll still be alive in 2 if you import that save. Oh, ok. Yeah that's a pretty glaring inconsistency right there.
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Sep 18, 2013 04:09
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losonti tokash posted:Almost everything the ME codex says about space combat is completely contradicted any time it's shown on screen. The biggest offenders of this are when Sovereign attacks the Citadel in 1 and the battle for Earth at the end of 3. The first one because the codex goes to great pains to talk about how missiles are obsolete and useless because everyone has super accurate lasers that instantly shoot them down, but in the cutscene there are missiles loving everywhere blowing everything right the hell up. Yeah you're definitely right about space combat being completely different from what is described in the codex. I guess I didn't remember it because it's not right at the start of the game. Also it's been years since I played Mass Effect, so maybe I'm misremembering and the codex was a piece of poo poo there aside from the top notch narration. Which reminds me, I was reading the Sonic Brotherhood LP and there's a loving codex in that as well. A codex in a Sonic game. Is this a thing now where if Bioware makes a game there has to be a codex in it? Has that always been a thing? CitrusFrog posted:Oh, ok. Yeah that's a pretty glaring inconsistency right there. "Hey, remember you decapitated her next to a magical pile of ashes! Who knows what sort of mysterious effects that could have..." -Bioware's response to people pointing out this huge plot hole.
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Sep 18, 2013 04:12
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Internet Kraken posted:"Hey, remember you decapitated her next to a magical pile of ashes! Who knows what sort of mysterious effects that could have..." Its just showing to you how important your choices will be.
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Sep 18, 2013 04:14
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