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If your goal is to crush your opponent into submission or wreck their fighting spirit, and not just convince others that you are right, it's probably a conflict instead of a contest. Also, as I mentioned before, you can mix physical and mental attacks within the same conflict. Like, using intimidation and scare tactics to soften up your enemy and then taking them out physically. Or beating them up a little and going "had enough yet? Give it up" for your final blow. It's pretty rad.
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Oct 17, 2013 16:27
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I've always wanted a game with witty repartee as an optional component to combat. Could be Spider Man's annoying quips, or some kind of trash-talking intimidation tactic, or something else, but in my ideal mental vision it could add another dimension to combat. I think that kind of thing is only doable if the mental Stress (or social or emotional or whatever) track is the same as the physical Stress track. Otherwise, you get the problem that your quips are hitting a whole 'nother silo of ablative defense, and you'd contribute better by hitting the same silo as everyone else (the Physical one). Luckily Consequences are already unified, so if you can inflict a Consequence, you're helping. Are there any FATE games which unify Stress tracks into a single track?
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Oct 17, 2013 16:43
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You could design a Stunt that allows the hero to make a physical attack with Provoke or something. But also, even with separate Stress tracks there's still only one set of Consequences. My social character uses Provoke to hit hard and apply Consequences, then invoke them for the final big physical blow. It works pretty well and feels right. Having just one Stress track means takedowns that are too easy, I think.
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Oct 17, 2013 16:50
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Dodge Charms posted:Are there any FATE games which unify Stress tracks into a single track? FAE does exactly that! It is rad.
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Oct 17, 2013 17:20
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It would also be really easy to do in Core. You'd just take away one of the tracks and use the remaining one for both.
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Oct 17, 2013 17:42
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TurninTrix posted:FAE does exactly that! It is rad. Thanks! Gazetteer posted:It would also be really easy to do in Core. You'd just take away one of the tracks and use the remaining one for both. Would it?
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Oct 17, 2013 17:48
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I don't play with a stress track at all, just consequences, and it doesn't imbalance anything. I'm sure that just having a single stress track in FATE would be fine. The engine is robust.
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Oct 17, 2013 17:53
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Core is made to be hosed around with to your heart's content. Like, the book even mentions adding a third stress track for wealth or something if it fits your game. As far as I can see, the only immediate effect to making physical and mental stress be represented in the same track is that there is hypothetically less reason to diversify. A character with a lot of points in Provoke but none in Fight becomes more viable in general. If you think that's a problem, consider tweaking other things to avoid it; FAE doesn't use skills at all, so it's not an issue there.
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Oct 17, 2013 18:08
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Also, the number of boxes for physical and mental stress tracks still depend on Physique and Will respectively, but you can get around that by just giving everyone three stress boxes flat or however much you like it. Maybe add another mild consequence slot at Good (+3) Physique/Will to keep those skills appealing, and you're good to go.
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Oct 17, 2013 18:14
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Make them depend on either Will or Physique, whichever is higher.
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Oct 17, 2013 18:15
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Considering the Stress Tax is the second worst bit of Core (the worst one being 'max athletics, burn a stunt on buying a catch-all defense skill, or die'), anything that helps take the sting off of it can only be a good thing. Very few characters can get away with not spending points on at least Physique, if not Will, even if they don't fit the concept perfectly.
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Oct 17, 2013 18:20
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TurninTrix posted:Also, the number of boxes for physical and mental stress tracks still depend on Physique and Will respectively, but you can get around that by just giving everyone three stress boxes flat or however much you like it. Maybe add another mild consequence slot at Good (+3) Physique/Will to keep those skills appealing, and you're good to go. IIRC the 2-box mild Consequences go away at the same time Stress would go away (the end of a scene), right?
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Oct 17, 2013 18:50
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Thanks for the advice. And, I think with the discussion on using quips and verbal attacks alongside physical damage in conflicts, instead of just relying on the non-unified stress tracks and eventually causing consequences, you could also model things well by creating advantages with social skills.
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Oct 17, 2013 18:52
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Dodge Charms posted:That's a really interesting idea. They last one scene after you've done something to start the recovery process.
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Oct 17, 2013 18:55
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Loki_XLII posted:I think with the discussion on using quips and verbal attacks alongside physical damage in conflicts, instead of just relying on the non-unified stress tracks and eventually causing consequences, you could also model things well by creating advantages with social skills. That relegates social skills to ONLY doing support, while physical skills can do support AND cash in on the support. I'd like it to be possible to have a situation where you gain some kind of info which will be a shocking revelation to some NPC, but you know he won't want to hear it, so you need to punch him for a while before pulling out your (social) trump card. Then he's Taken Out by the revelation as the fight climax, rather than by a punch as the climax. (An implicit part of the goal here is to reward non-murderhobo builds with spotlight capability.)
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Oct 17, 2013 19:18
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Transient People posted:Considering the Stress Tax is the second worst bit of Core (the worst one being 'max athletics, burn a stunt on buying a catch-all defense skill, or die'), anything that helps take the sting off of it can only be a good thing. Very few characters can get away with not spending points on at least Physique, if not Will, even if they don't fit the concept perfectly. This sums up like the only thing I sort of dislike about Fate pretty well, and next time I run something in Fate I might see how merging the tracks works for my group.
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Oct 17, 2013 23:42
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Zerilan posted:This sums up like the only thing I sort of dislike about Fate pretty well, and next time I run something in Fate I might see how merging the tracks works for my group. It's worked pretty well for a game I've been running over IRC so far; we have just one stress track, called 'Stress', and if something inflicts stress on the character, it goes on that track. Getting smacked by a goblin? Stress! Being insulted by a trusted friend? Stress! Psionic mojo aimed at your brains? Stress! It can still be boosted by Physique/Will stunts, but not by the raw skill; in effect, if you want to have a higher Stress Track, you can pay a stunt for it and show how it ties in to your character's specific story, but most of the time there's no need for it. Each character has 3 stress boxes by default, so you can take a hit or two without immediately needing a consequence, but prolonged fights generally get ugly.
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Oct 18, 2013 02:58
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That sounds like a recipe for players needing to alpha strike and engage in all sort of groggy conflict avoidance. ...then again, my experience with FATE is Dresden and its need to one-shot an entire OOOOOO[mild][mod][severe] stress track in a single attack. Okay, maybe not the need, but the desire to. Ronwayne fucked around with this message at 04:09 on Oct 18, 2013 |
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Oct 18, 2013 04:01
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Remember, aspects are Always True, so if your teen girl protagonist is dissing everyone to defeat, someone can roll resources to create a "wearing earmuffs" aspect. The same's true of the Ogre Barbarian - what's he gonna do when he's facing someone Out of Reach, Ghostly, or Made of Jelly? You use the FP economy to trigger people's "Overly Patriotic" troubles to get them to agree to a drinking contest before the big footrace, or trigger "Lying Bastard" one to bring out an old flame before his wedding proposal. If your characters are dead set on winning with one stat, give'em plenty, but them the power of diversity too.
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Oct 18, 2013 09:17
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Ronwayne posted:That sounds like a recipe for players needing to alpha strike and engage in all sort of groggy conflict avoidance. Bloody wizards and their ability to go two for one on attack spells, then throw all their bonuses into that roll. Having your weapon rating be set by the same roll that you use for targeting(and thus targeting overflow) is insane enough before you throw in all those focus items.
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Oct 18, 2013 09:18
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Dodge Charms posted:I've always wanted a game with witty repartee as an optional component to combat. Why not just use the Create Advantage rules? Spider-man quips gets the Rhino fuming mad, so that when he charges Spidey on his next turn, Spidey Invokes that "Seeing Red" aspect and increases the shifts of the miss by 2, which triggers his Spider Sense stunt that let's him give up his next action to inflict the shifts of a missed melee attack as damage when he succeeds with style. Rhino charges, gets a face full of web, and crashes right into a brick wall, bringing the whole thing down on top of him.
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Oct 18, 2013 10:33
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Quadratic_Wizard posted:Why not just use the Create Advantage rules? Spider-man quips gets the Rhino fuming mad, so that when he charges Spidey on his next turn, Spidey Invokes that "Seeing Red" aspect and increases the shifts of the miss by 2, which triggers his Spider Sense stunt that let's him give up his next action to inflict the shifts of a missed melee attack as damage when he succeeds with style. Rhino charges, gets a face full of web, and crashes right into a brick wall, bringing the whole thing down on top of him. Yeah, you can totally make it worth without needing to hack anything. My group mixes physical/social attacks all the time now, to great effect, no hacks necessary. - create a Stunt that lets you deal physical damage with X skill - use create advantage as written above - just use the rules as written, which give you two stress tracks and one consequence track. They perfectly emulate this already. I'm not super experienced with FATE, but it seems to me that if everyone had just one stress track it would get a little "same-y" after a while. As written, it's an interesting balance between Will and Physique, how much you're willing to invest in each, where your priorities are and where you're opponent's weak spot is. I like that, it's nuanced without being complex.
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Oct 18, 2013 15:46
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Quadratic_Wizard posted:Why not just use the Create Advantage rules? Spider-man quips gets the Rhino fuming mad, so that when he charges Spidey on his next turn, Spidey Invokes that "Seeing Red" aspect and increases the shifts of the miss by 2, which triggers his Spider Sense stunt that let's him give up his next action to inflict the shifts of a missed melee attack as damage when he succeeds with style. Rhino charges, gets a face full of web, and crashes right into a brick wall, bringing the whole thing down on top of him. Dodge Charms posted:That relegates social skills to ONLY doing support, while physical skills can do support AND cash in on the support. --- Scrape posted:(...) it's an interesting balance between Will and Physique, how much you're willing to invest in each, where your priorities are and where you're opponent's weak spot is. I like that, it's nuanced without being complex. That gives you the nuance you want: a high-Physique guy will be walking around with an extra Mild Consequence or two, which makes him able to suck up more of a specific kind of Stress than the low-Physique guy.
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Oct 18, 2013 16:33
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Dodge Charms posted:--- Uh, isn't that how it works already?
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Oct 18, 2013 17:36
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Spincut posted:Uh, isn't that how it works already? Which version of FATE do you mean by "it"? Because the answer ranges from "no" to "almost but not quite".
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Oct 18, 2013 18:09
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Isn't that how it works in Fate Core?
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Oct 18, 2013 18:13
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Dodge Charms posted:Which version of FATE do you mean by "it"? Fate Core. You get an extra mild physical or mental consequence based on a high physique or will.
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Oct 18, 2013 18:14
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I guess there's no mechanical reason you couldn't squash the two Stress tracks together, but I wouldn't do it at my table. I really like keeping the two defenses separate, while keeping the Consequences universal. It feels right to me: use Provoke to destroy your enemy's willpower and give him the Broken Will aspect or whatever, then tag it for your big final physical assault. To me, it feels like there's more synergy, planning, and interaction using both Stress tracks, rather than just "make a Physical attack if you're good at it, or make a Mental attack if that's your best skill, it's all coming off the same stress track anyway." Like, in my campaign, my terrible-at-combat partner needed to make a physical attack because we knew it'd fill up the enemy's physical stress and give her a consequence, which I could then invoke on my follow up to take her out. It leads to neat stuff like that, playing against your strengths sometimes so you can set up a situation that plays right into your strengths later. I like having Physique and Will affect their corresponding Stress Tracks and only offer more Consequences at really high levels. Consequences seem like they should be Big Deal things that you don't wanna be able to accumulate lots of. (keep in mind I'm still a Fate newbie and could totally be wrong about this, but I've experienced a lot of satisfying "hero's quip totally takes down the villain" moments without changing the rules at all)
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Oct 18, 2013 18:25
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Scrape posted:Isn't that how it works in Fate Core? Fate Core is an "almost but not quite". Scrape posted:It feels right to me: use Provoke to destroy your enemy's willpower and give him the Broken Will aspect or whatever, then tag it for your big final physical assault. Scrape posted:To me, it feels like there's more synergy, planning, and interaction using both Stress tracks Getting to Consequences faster is more synergy. Scrape posted:I like having Physique and Will affect their corresponding Stress Tracks and only offer more Consequences at really high levels. Consequences seem like they should be Big Deal things that you don't wanna be able to accumulate lots of.
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Oct 18, 2013 19:03
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Transient People posted:Considering the Stress Tax is the second worst bit of Core (the worst one being 'max athletics, burn a stunt on buying a catch-all defense skill, or die'), anything that helps take the sting off of it can only be a good thing. Very few characters can get away with not spending points on at least Physique, if not Will, even if they don't fit the concept perfectly. 
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Oct 18, 2013 19:42
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BryanChavez posted:I don't play with a stress track at all, just consequences, and it doesn't imbalance anything. How does that work? Do successful attacks just deal consequences?
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Oct 18, 2013 20:03
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Heliotrope posted:How does that work? Do successful attacks just deal consequences? Yup. Depending on how much stress you inflict, you inflict a different consequence. It's mechanically just like starting with no stress boxes. In compensation for not having the buffer of a track, you first have to create an advantage on someone before you can inflict Stress - 'Backed into a Corner', 'Off Balance', 'Got The Jump On Them', etc. Works pretty well for my group.
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Oct 18, 2013 21:11
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My rules for Fate go in the other direction and nerfs the attack action. Consequences don't give a free invoke, and succeeding with style on an attack doesn't give you a boost. If you attack someone and get a single shift of success, you can Invoke to increase that to 3 shifts. Then give it a -1 penalty to Succeed With Style and get a boost. So not only do you get that Invoke right back, but if you inflicted a consequence, you actually double your money. When attacking is better at creating Invokes than Create Advantage, something is wrong. The other thing I normally do is separate the combat stats from the skills. Varies depending on the setting, but generally I like letting characters specialize in Melee or Ranged, and Offense or Defense. So everyone has a general "combat" skill rated at +3. Melee adds +1 to that for melee attacks. Ranged lets you attack anyone up to three zones away without penalty. Offense boosts your attack actions by +1, Defense boosts your defense actions by +1. So you have 4 different combinations for the same skill before applying any stunts.
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Oct 18, 2013 21:25
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So I've already posted this in the TG Kickstarter thread, but this is kinda relevant to the thread so I'll shamelessly crosspost here. Anyway, this is not quite 100% RPG news, but the author of the awesome urban fantasy series Twenty Palaces Harry Connolly is kickstarting his three book epic fantasy series and you should all totally back. Yeah, I know. "Books? What does this have to do with tabletops?" Okay, the reason I'm blatantly shilling this here is because in addition to several other awesome free novels that have been unlocked for every $12+ backer by stretch goals, every $30+ backer (which is five dollars more than the tier that gets you the entire three book series plus all the other books) is getting several Fate Core supplements. One to play in the (kinda awesome) world of the Kickstarted novels, one to play in the world of the other UF novel you get'll for free and, most importantly, if he gets 150 more backers, Fred Hicks and Rob Donoghue will expand the awesome Voidcallers section of the FATE Toolkit (which is already heavily inspired by Twenty Palaces) into a proper supplement with lots of additional cool poo poo and a way to explicitly run it as a Twenty Palaces game. So yeah. I did my dance of whoredom. *awkward cough* Sorry.
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Oct 18, 2013 23:53
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BryanChavez posted:Yup. Depending on how much stress you inflict, you inflict a different consequence. It's mechanically just like starting with no stress boxes. In compensation for not having the buffer of a track, you first have to create an advantage on someone before you can inflict Stress - 'Backed into a Corner', 'Off Balance', 'Got The Jump On Them', etc. Works pretty well for my group. Also sounds pretty similar to the Savage World's "Shaken" thing... in that, you inflict a box of damage only if the target is already Shaken, and Shaken resets every turn. Do you have any "critical hit" provision, where someone can inflict such an awesome hit that it goes straight to Consequences? Like a damage threshold? Do you give extra Consequence boxes for high Physique / Will / etc.? (Do Mooks just have normal stress boxes?)
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Oct 18, 2013 23:54
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Ronwayne posted:That sounds like a recipe for players needing to alpha strike and engage in all sort of groggy conflict avoidance. And this is why Anna doesn't use her magic  But having a game where you need to get the drop on people or not fight at all would go a ways towards making FATE work better for horror. BryanChavez posted:Yup. Depending on how much stress you inflict, you inflict a different consequence. It's mechanically just like starting with no stress boxes. In compensation for not having the buffer of a track, you first have to create an advantage on someone before you can inflict Stress - 'Backed into a Corner', 'Off Balance', 'Got The Jump On Them', etc. Works pretty well for my group. So the Swashbuckling/Kriegzepplin Valkyrie rules? What's the average combat length for your group?
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Oct 19, 2013 03:16
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Dodge Charms posted:Sounds very cool! If someone Creates an Advantage with style, I'll let them carry that through to a hit. It's worked out so far, but I'm still cautious with the idea. I'll allow extra Consequences for high Physique/Will/etc., or not, depending on what skills I use. Usually I do. I do mooks completely differently than FATE suggests. Nobodies have a single mild consequence, so get aced easy. Your henchmen get a mild and a medium. Your big bads get all three. If there's a bunch of mooks, I use the Scale rules to represent that, and they'll have at least two consequences to knock out. MadRhetoric posted:So the Swashbuckling/Kriegzepplin Valkyrie rules? What's the average combat length for your group? Toolkit stole my idea, man. Though I'm sure I saw it on a blog awhile back, which is why I picked it up. But yeah, the last time we've had a big fight, it was against hordes of hungry ghosts in a post-apocalyptic tenement, which skews things. The combat lasted most of the session, about three hours or so, but there were probably eight or so discrete combats within that, along with in-between banter and a whole lot of running and jumping. I'd say that each one of those lasted maybe fifteen minutes?
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Oct 19, 2013 04:41
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MadScientistWorking posted:What the hell are you doing that requires a Stress range more than the default? Any game that uses straight weapon shifts just ignores the first half of the stress track for the most part. There's also those characters who take a +2 to attack rolls stunt, who tend to succeed with style at a minimum, meaning they will instantly inflict consequences on anyone without at least +1 Physique or Will. There's a lot of reasons why the Stress Tax is a thing, really.
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Oct 19, 2013 08:02
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"Dodge Charms" posted:stuff You've got good points. I'm admittedly a Fate newbie, but my group has found that it's easy to use your stronger skill set (Physical or social) to inflict Consequences to set you up for an easier one-shot attack with your weaker skill. That's the synergy I'm talking about. I would worry that a single Stress track would negate a lot of potential defenses you've built up. As for Big Deal things, a Mild Consequence is a Big Deal compared to, say, just some Stress hits. That's all. Even a Minor Mental Consequence can be tagged for a bigger Physical hit. Works well for us. Also, we barely use weapon bonuses. Only guns add Shifts, and even then only a +1 or so. But we're playing a low-combat campaign right now. I'm super interested in this conversation so I can up my game. Thanks! I'm a bit confused about how many Consequences NPCs get in general. Mooks are taken out after their Stress is filled, right? No Consequences at all, right? Named NPCs get. Mild or ModeratenConsequence and only Boss Fight type guys get Serious ones. Is that correct?
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Oct 19, 2013 18:36
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What genres are covered by Fate so far? What's missing? I know we've got high and low fantasy, steampunk/Victorian, supers, pulp, post-apoc pulp, hard and soft sci-fi... what else? There's some cyberware ideas in the toolkit but is there a fleshed out cyberpunk setting? What about gritty apocalypse? Mystery/ detective? Horror? (Kinda hard, I know) What's are we lacking?
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Oct 19, 2013 21:16
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