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Yarbald posted:I have a lot of friends who buy into 9/11 truther stuff, water fluoridation, etc... lately one of my friends has become obsessed with this stupid sun gazing crap, as it "undoes the calcification of the pineal gland caused by fluorine," as well as constantly bugging everyone he knows about 9/11. His only source is a sun gazing web site, which has absolutely zero sources and paypal links everywhere begging for donations. No matter what I say, he has already gazed at the sun for 30 second a few times. I don't know what to do anymore; It's not like I work in the healthcare field or anything, what do I know. These people are like religious zealots, anything that doesn't fit their narrative is "what the MAN wants you to believe!" Sun gazing is pretty popular over at the Godlikeprodutions forums. Godlike is basically the 4chan/fyad of the conspiracy world. Perhaps pointing him towards them and exposing him to the full blown craziness that masquerades as respectable members might shock him a bit? I know in the past that forum was so nutty it drove me away from certain things. Or it might make him worse, I don't know. Your not going to win with him rationally. The only way you can win an argument with a person like that is to win a logical debate using his own internal logic. That is really, really hard to do, but still kind of possible. I've sene it happen before at least.
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# ? Sep 15, 2013 03:16 |
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# ? Mar 28, 2024 22:52 |
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McDowell posted:Forget conning these people - someone is telling them to stare directly into the sun multiple times a day - and apparently they believe it. It sounds like a very elaborate troll that actually took off to the point that it has people causing permanent damage to themselves. Fluoride and pineal glands are the two ringing alarms about this in my mind, since they're pretty much buzzwords for conspiracy theorists. I've thought about floating similar ideas out there, but decided no to since I'm not quite that sadistic. In fact, I like to imagine a lot of conspiracy theories and medical quackery are just trolls of a similar nature. It makes the batshit crazy in the world a little more amusing to think about.
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# ? Sep 15, 2013 03:49 |
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Rutgers put out a good report on the FAA and NORAD's response during 9/11, and it's pretty unflattering. I think NORAD believed that Flight 11 (the first plane to crash) was still airborne well after United 93 crashed, and they also believed mistakenly that Delta 1989 was a hijacked plane and almost shot it down. http://www.rutgerslawreview.com/2011/a-new-type-of-war/
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# ? Sep 15, 2013 06:47 |
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Prester John posted:I went from "Alex Jones is an amazing freedom fighter" to "Christ gently caress what was I thinking, this guy is a lunatic". I had a similar experience with Glenn Beck.
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# ? Sep 15, 2013 07:08 |
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There were a lot of 911 details that really sounded strange at the time, and a few of them still sound strange. There was a tape of air traffic controllers describing the events of 911, until "A quality-assurance manager at the center destroyed the tape several months after it was made, crushing the cassette in his hand, cutting the tape into little pieces and dropping them in different trash cans around the building" http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/07/national/07TAPE.html FAA policy does call for written statements, but the commission report noted that destroying that tape was a rather strange decision. Le Monde (which is a legit newspaper, not Daily Mail) mentioned that future Afghan president Hamid Karzai was a consultant for UNOCAL, an oil company interested in building pipelines through Taliban territory. Which sounds sketchy, but apparently, the writer for Le Monde simply made this up. I always thought it was funny that all 19 hijackers were identified less than an hour after the end of the attacks - and that they happened to be all of the 19 Arabic-sounding names on the passenger lists. Turns out that's kinda what they did at first, but luckily all 19 guys later turned out to solid suspects based on good detective work.
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# ? Sep 15, 2013 16:51 |
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There are some legitimate concerns with 9-11 and occasionally the Truthers do make a cogent point despite their best efforts. There is a only half tinfoily argument to be made that some part of the Bush administration had pre-knowledge of the attacks. This particular narrative usually views Cheney as the real power running things that day and Bush as sort of a clueless puppet that was kept out of the way. There are also decent reasons to not take the 9-11 Commission Report at face value, or to at least view it as extremely milquetoast. Probably the best non-truthery book that shakes up the dominant narrative is Wake Up Call: The Political Education of a 9-11 Widow. I read the book years ago, but I remember it being straightforwards and to not really stray into Truther territory. Basically the book is about the 4 9-11 widows who were the primary cause for their to even be a 9-11 Commission, and the somewhat crooked way the Commission wound up being run.
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# ? Sep 15, 2013 17:10 |
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You can't discard a hypothesis because of minor inconsistencies when the one you are proposing to replace it with is full of huge inconsistencies.
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# ? Sep 15, 2013 17:17 |
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Phyzzle posted:There were a lot of 911 details that really sounded strange at the time, and a few of them still sound strange. Well Unocal was trying to build a pipeline in the early 90's to get Turkmen natural gas to market in a way that didn't use Russia's pipeline network and didn't go through Iran, and Karzai is from a fairly influential royalist Pashtun family and was a minor player at the time, so using him to get an introduction to tribal elders and power brokers would seem to be a good idea.
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# ? Sep 15, 2013 17:47 |
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On the one hand I feel a lot of pity for the majority of young people I've encountered who latch onto these beliefs. Mostly they tend to believe it's all an excuse to orchestrate war which of course is the most profitable activity for the Government. They all seem to have a hatred for banks which is understandable when most of them are growing up finding it difficult to get employment and thus afford necessities never mind luxuries. Having a massive hatred for authority is also common, a lot of people feel like the Government etc are lying to them and imprisoning them through the monetary system. Surprisingly having an interest in survival-ism for when the electricity stops and we can't find food is also common place. Of course, I don't think it's a coincidence almost all of them are raving potheads.
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# ? Sep 15, 2013 20:12 |
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Nothus posted:Well Unocal was trying to build a pipeline in the early 90's to get Turkmen natural gas to market in a way that didn't use Russia's pipeline network and didn't go through Iran, and Karzai is from a fairly influential royalist Pashtun family and was a minor player at the time, so using him to get an introduction to tribal elders and power brokers would seem to be a good idea. I actually have a family member who worked for Unocal on the team that was trying to develop that pipline at that time. He told me a story about how one time they flew in a group of Taliban representatives to the head office in Houston where he worked, and that it was really weird to see them touring the building in their more traditional Afghan clothing and with their eye patches and scars. The guys must have looked pretty rough and tumble.
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# ? Sep 15, 2013 20:18 |
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Nobody in the thread has yet mentioned Dr Judy Woods, and her book "Where Did The Towers Go?" in which she claims that it wasn't hijacked airliners or a controlled demolition, but the World Trade Center was in fact destroyed by (wait for it) a secret US Government laser weapon. It is definitely the most out-there theory I have ever come across. Prestor John, if you are still kicking about, have you had much experience with this particular flavor of Truther? My own experience is pretty limited; I watched a weekly low budget conspiracy show in the UK hosted by a guy called Richard D. Hall who wholly endorsed it and featured Dr Woods and her theories in a number of episodes, as well as plugging her book every chance he got. You can watch all the episodes online but brace yourself for crazy coming at you from every direction (UFOs, CIA mind control, free energy, fluoridation, chemtrails, paleocontact, King Arthur, pyramid mysteries, everything).
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# ? Sep 15, 2013 21:03 |
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Personally, I'm a big believer in the "No Towers" theory. The Twin Towers never existed. Sure, there are photographs but those can be doctored. Testimonies can be faked. With the psychotropic drugs even memories can be altered.
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# ? Sep 15, 2013 21:19 |
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Chromatic Toucanet posted:Nobody in the thread has yet mentioned Dr Judy Woods, and her book "Where Did The Towers Go?" in which she claims that it wasn't hijacked airliners or a controlled demolition, but the World Trade Center was in fact destroyed by (wait for it) a secret US Government laser weapon. It is definitely the most out-there theory I have ever come across. Yeah, I'm familiar with these people. You might want to be sitting down for this one. The satellite weapon people are a small but formerly extremely vocal subset of the "no planers" variety of Truther. (No planers generally contend that either the planes striking the towers were really missiles mocked up to look like planes, or holograms.) The "death ray" people have really fallen out of favor and are a mostly ignored fringe subsection of Truthers. There only real accomplishments were making GBS threads up the Loose Change forums (and a few other related sites) with non-stop accusations of everyone being a government plant and an organized harassment Of Steven A. Jones, the 9-11 physicist/thermite guy. Things at one point had gotten so bad and the movement was split in so many fueding factions that Alex Jones (whom typically never wades into the ridiculous factional bullshit of conspiracy theories) actually had to come out and publicly tell them to chill the gently caress out. Since then they've died down and only ever appear on the ultra ultra ultra fringe sites, as even GodLikeProductions (or "gulpers" as they are derogatorily called) don't accept the death ray idea. If anyone wants to see more entertaining inter-faction truther bullshit then I heartily recommend David Icke's article Jesse Ventura-Pet Detective An amusing quote: David Icke posted:He barely acknowledged me and sat down to embark on a series of questions so unresearched and juvenile that I immediately concluded that I was not dealing with the brain of Minnesota, nor even the house in which he lives, unless he lives alone.
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# ? Sep 15, 2013 21:29 |
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Well, it seems Mr. Hall is in a camp all of his own then. His version of events includes both actual planes hitting the towers (although he believes they were remote controlled drones painted to look like airliners) AND the low orbit ion cannon. He actually did some original work debunking the planes as holograms / faked video footage theories, producing some 3D simulations of the two planes' flight paths. Oh, and he is pretty venomous about the Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth group, despite formerly being of the opinion that it was indeed a controlled demolition involving thermite. Having watched his show for a good few years, it has been interesting to see him slide further and further down the rabbit hole of crazy. I'm a little sad that I wont be able to any more, because his show was cancelled after a particularly controversial episode where his guest Nick Kollerstrom (who has a lot of opinions about the Falklands war and the 7/7 bombings) claimed that the murder of Private Lee Rigby was staged by MI6. I absolutely cannot get enough of conspiracy nuts' infighting, it is immensely entertaining. Can we talk about Charlie Veitch and his stunning 180 in regards to 9/11? That Vice article suggests that it was quite the explosive revelation in the Truther movement.
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# ? Sep 15, 2013 22:02 |
I remember coming across some guy talking about how the two towers were actually stolen by The Blue Man Group. The Blue Man Group did this at the behest of IBM, CERN and the DoD so they could go to war in the middle east and use Iraq as a testing site for a earthquake machine that transmits earthquakes into both the future and the past and is actually the cause of all earthquakes that have ever happened. The towers are apparently part of this machine too. Unfortunately I read this years ago and I have no idea where to find it now.
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# ? Sep 15, 2013 22:17 |
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The part I've never been able to understand about these conspiracy theories is how their advocates jump from finding holes, inconsistencies, or hard to believe aspects in the official stories to the assumption that whatever complex alternate story they've come up with must be correct instead. The truth is the average person does not know what took place on 9/11; we can read the 9/11 Commission report and choose to accept or reject what it says, but neither of those choices means we know for sure what happened that day (edit- not that I'm saying any and all views on the subject are equally valid). Personally, I'm fine with accepting the idea that I will never know totally accurate accounts of important historical events that I had no part in. It's only due to relatively recent advancements in mass media that humans can even have the illusion of being so knowledgeable about events going on all around the world all the time. Does anyone know an example of a widespread conspiracy theory from before the advent of mass media (say, before the printing press was invented)? Would the story of Nero burning Rome count? Lord Krangdar fucked around with this message at 00:35 on Sep 16, 2013 |
# ? Sep 16, 2013 00:33 |
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Lord Krangdar posted:Does anyone know an example of a widespread conspiracy theory from before the advent of mass media (say, before the printing press was invented)? Would the story of Nero burning Rome count? Every religion?
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# ? Sep 16, 2013 00:47 |
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I've watched a couple of the down-to-earth truther videos and while I'm pretty convinced there's no conspiracy to be found but I do find some of their main points to be interesting and worth discussing. I'd appreciate if someone could help refute some of their more moderate claims. "The building collapses happened at almost free-fall speeds." "If the core columns were cut or melted at the point where the planes collided then the building collapses would have been through the path of least resistance from those points, which is, out and to the sides instead of straight down." "The core columns were made of tempered steel, who's melting point is higher than the temperature that jet fuel burns at." "An office fire in BLDG7 wouldn't burn nearly hot enough to cause a catastrophic collapse." It's definitely a valid conspiracy theory if these questions have never been covered in the commission reports though.
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# ? Sep 16, 2013 01:33 |
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Those things are all wrong.
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# ? Sep 16, 2013 01:38 |
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This picture shows how the Towers were built. Other buildings like the Empire State are filled with support columns - the WTC has that central core and the outer shell. The impact and the burning fuel weakened the core until the whole structure collapsed under its own weight. As for building seven - I'm still waiting for someone to provide some damage pictures. Maybe it was clear the building was damaged beyond repair so they set off a self-destruct system put in place by the Secretive agencies with offices there. To quote Hillary 'What difference does it make?'
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# ? Sep 16, 2013 01:43 |
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If only there existed some way to search for pictures on the internet.
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# ? Sep 16, 2013 01:55 |
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withak posted:If only there existed some way to search for pictures on the internet. I know right? First image result for "Building 7 damage" The damage was not all the way across the far side of the building, but its clear it was not just a fire that caused the WTC7 to collapse. That was a large part of it, but the damage from the collapse of one of the other towers did alot of the work as well. EDIT: Off the subject of 9/11; are there any conspiracy theories surrounding iodized salt? I figure If such a big deal is going to be made over fluoridated water, someone would be making a stink about iodized salt. But I can't remember ever hearing a fuss made about it, even though the two parallel each other in almost every way. Xmas Dumpster Fire fucked around with this message at 02:18 on Sep 16, 2013 |
# ? Sep 16, 2013 02:14 |
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Bedshaped posted:"The core columns were made of tempered steel, who's melting point is higher than the temperature that jet fuel burns at." Go take a blowtorch and hold it up to some metal and watch what happens. You don't need to hit the melting point for it to start sagging, and when you're dealing with a building that weighs... uh, a quick Google says 200,000 tons of steel alone were used in constructing the WTC... well, I'm sure you get the idea.
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# ? Sep 16, 2013 02:17 |
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Because GIS has a reliable signal to noise ratio on something like this - it always helps for people to provide content here. That damage doesn't explain how it collapsed so neatly (unless it had a similar design to 1 and 2?) - or why its collapse was reported on before it happened. down_and_out posted:EDIT: Off the subject of 9/11; are there any conspiracy theories surrounding iodized salt? I figure If such a big deal is going to be made over fluoridated water, someone would be making a stink about iodized salt. But I can't remember ever hearing a fuss made about it, even though the two parallel each other in almost every way. Maybe because the physiological importance of Iodine is well established? I'm sure there's someone staring into the sun to break down their excess pineal iodine though.
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# ? Sep 16, 2013 02:21 |
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1. It didn't collapse that neatly. 2. Reported by whom?
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# ? Sep 16, 2013 02:23 |
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withak posted:1. It didn't collapse that neatly. I feel terrible for even posting this, and I only do so with the caveat that DOWN THIS PATH LIES ONLY MADNESS. Probably one of the biggest field days Truthers ever had was when, about three years after the fact, some Truther pouring through every bit of archival footage of 9-11 found the video he is referencing. BBC reported that the "Soloman Brothers Building" (The proper name of building 7) had just collapsed. They did this with a smoldering building 7 in the background of the reporter making this report. The building actually collapsed about 20 minutes later. The BBC made things even worse when it claimed that it had lost all copies of its footage from 9-11 and couldn't verify the authenticity of the video in question. The Truthers have been howling about this ever since. You can see the video below https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tGOt9f3gKk Now its pretty well known that Building 7 had been expected to collapse from its damage for some time during the day. The rational explanation is that BBC got mixed up and turned a report from ground of "will probably collapse soon" to "has just collapsed". PS:DOWN THIS PATH LIES ONLY MADNESS.
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# ? Sep 16, 2013 02:35 |
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Yeah, I distinctly remember that another building was reported to have collapsed at one point but hadn't. I can't remember the name though. People broadcasting live make mistakes all the time, especially under pressure. Watch a weekend of football and you'll see at least one of the broadcasting team say something that's flat out wrong.
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# ? Sep 16, 2013 02:42 |
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Prester John posted:PS:DOWN THIS PATH LIES ONLY MADNESS. Yeah, as I said from the beginning I'm only discussing/entertaining these ideas in a post-modern way - only as being possible, not true. Just turtling on the official story as the absolute truth makes you condescending and stand-offish - and imagine how you'll feel when you're in a nursing home one day reading a story about some newly declassified documents.
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# ? Sep 16, 2013 02:48 |
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It's possible the BBC were listening in on police/fire stations and misheard. There was conversation at one point before building 7 collapsed that they feared it might collapse. Also, it did not collapse neatly. The interior collapsed in cascading fashion first followed by the unsupported shell some seconds later https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFJa9WUy5QI
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# ? Sep 16, 2013 02:48 |
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down_and_out posted:EDIT: Off the subject of 9/11; are there any conspiracy theories surrounding iodized salt? I figure If such a big deal is going to be made over fluoridated water, someone would be making a stink about iodized salt. But I can't remember ever hearing a fuss made about it, even though the two parallel each other in almost every way. I've actually encountered that. I don't remember the details though.
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# ? Sep 16, 2013 03:07 |
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It isn't quite a conspiracy theory, but the idea that Britain was settled by the refugees of the Trojan War goes back to before the printing press. And I've had people tell me about it with a straight face as if it were fact.
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# ? Sep 16, 2013 03:22 |
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Bedshaped posted:
Every time I see a video claiming to show it was free-fall speeds, they have futzed with the timing, usually on purpose. I saw this in loose change, and I've seen it everytime I've heard of it. Bedshaped posted:"If the core columns were cut or melted at the point where the planes collided then the building collapses would have been through the path of least resistance from those points, which is, out and to the sides instead of straight down." The building did not fall straight down. If it had collapsed inwards, there would not have been a huge fuckoff cloud of debris and there wouldn't have been wreckage piling up for blocks. The top half of it fell down. From the videos, yes, it looks like it's going straight down, but you also have to remember the outside shell, while unable to support it, would still guide it more inwards than outwards. Bedshaped posted:"The core columns were made of tempered steel, who's melting point is higher than the temperature that jet fuel burns at." Metal does not need to melt in order to lose it's structural integrity. You can see this when heating metal enough to shape it. You don't melt it because if you melt it you have to pour it into a mold to cool it, you heat it enough so that it's flexible. Bedshaped posted:"An office fire in BLDG7 wouldn't burn nearly hot enough to cause a catastrophic collapse." If it was truly just an office fire, maybe. Unfortunately it was struck by debris from the WTC collapse, tearing off a huge part of it. That, plus everything else, led to it's collapse. Bedshaped posted:It's definitely a valid conspiracy theory if these questions have never been covered in the commission reports though. This is the worst thing to say ever. Claiming that the absence of evidence, is the evidence of absence, is the dumbest thing ever. Every time I have discussed things with people on conspiracy theories, I keep on hearing 'Well anything's possible', But in the case of a conspiracy like 9/11, it doesn't make logical sense, so I'll break it down in my own little theory. If you want to terrorize your own people with a false flag operation. A: Why would you make some harebrained scheme to crash planes into three buildings, one of which is your own loving command H.Q.? If you want to terrify people and believe that action is needed, set bombs all over the country. Hell, you can even be the hero and defuse some of them and show that your government is still mostly on top of things instead of coming off as loving incompetent. B: Even if you somehow got it into your head that this harebrained scheme was the only way to get this done, Why would you make it look like you were incompetent? You want these people to want to go to war, but if the government is clearly run by idiots, they're not going to be so gung-ho about it. C: If you want to terrorize your people into a war with Iraq, why are the hijackers mostly from Saudi-Arabia? How hard would it to be to just make up someone and say they were from Iraq, and then when Iraq claims that they never saw those people before, to simply say they're lying? D: The big one. If your government is willing to slaughter thousands of people, just to get into a war for that sweet sweet oil, The gently caress do you think they are going to do if you go around saying that it's all a conspiracy theory? They've proven that they view individual life as importantly as a loving gnat's life. Do you honestly think that they could not kill you and make it look like an accident? Hell, they could disgrace your movement and make it look like you died due to auto-erotic asphyxiation. You're talking about a government willing and capable to do anything, capable of getting money from out of nowhere and capable of having stone cold people who in order to get their jobs have to kill their little sisters or kittens or some BS like that. E-Tank fucked around with this message at 04:01 on Sep 16, 2013 |
# ? Sep 16, 2013 03:59 |
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Hodgepodge posted:It isn't quite a conspiracy theory, but the idea that Britain was settled by the refugees of the Trojan War goes back to before the printing press. And I've had people tell me about it with a straight face as if it were fact. That reminds me of Anglo Isrealism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Israelism The ten lost tribes of Israel eventually made their way to Britain, the real promised land (berit is a Hebrew word for promise) while the remaining Israelites interbred with other Middle Eastern races. Thus the real God's chosen people were white people all along.
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# ? Sep 16, 2013 04:16 |
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People believe conspiracy theories because of emotional reasons, not because of logical reasons. Typically it's people who feel like they don't have any control over the world, and their mind is attempting to assert control by falsely recognizing patterns where there aren't any. Usually you'll find those traits are fairly common in people with anxiety/depression that is untreated. That and paranoia or schizotypal traits can cause conspiracy beliefs pretty easily. There are lots of people who would never be diagnosed with full-blown schizophrenia but who nevertheless remain on a spectrum where they may have schizotypal or schizoid or delusional disorders. Very often they will have a genetic predisposition to these disorders, but occasionally a brain injury can cause them. Then you get into people who are fairly rational but whose worldview and ideology rests on believing some kind of conspiracy theory like Republicans with global warming. This type is generally the most socially harmful of all conspiracy beliefs, because it is usually supported by lots of people in positions of authority. Basically, conspiracy belief is usually a symptom of an underlying psychological/psychiatric disorder, rather than a problem in and of itself.
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# ? Sep 16, 2013 04:31 |
Bedshaped posted:"The core columns were made of tempered steel, who's melting point is higher than the temperature that jet fuel burns at." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recrystallization_%28metallurgy%29 As to any conspiracies about iodine, I'm sure there are/have been some but I doubt they'd last very long as the resulting goiters would disabuse them of that idea pretty quickly. Then again, breatharianism is apparently a thing, so who knows. Maybe there's some crazy motherfucker out there who thinks his horribly bloated thyroid gives him the power to see the future or some poo poo and we're all just slaves to BIG SALT.
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# ? Sep 16, 2013 07:25 |
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Phyzzle posted:That reminds me of Anglo Isrealism. Not just that, but it turns out that everyone (including the Rosetta Stone) has been translating Egyptian hieroglyphics wrong all these years, and the secret to unlocking their true meaning can only be found in the DEFINITELY NOT FORGED Welsh "Druidic" Coelbren alphabet. Once you know what the hieroglyphs really say, they talk about Moses and the Lost Tribes. Also, if you squint hard enough, you can turn a whole bunch of other carved stones across Europe into Coelbren which describe their migration to Britain. Things you stand to learn once you've taken this particular red pill include;
And all this "true British history" has been relentlessly suppressed by the English and their false monarchy for reasons.
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# ? Sep 16, 2013 14:10 |
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Having Mossad and the CIA go around offing truthers would undermine the popular argument that 9/11 conspiracy theorists are crazy nutjobs. Sergg posted:People believe conspiracy theories because of emotional reasons, not because of logical reasons.
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# ? Sep 16, 2013 14:54 |
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McDowell posted:As for building seven - I'm still waiting for someone to provide some damage pictures. Maybe it was clear the building was damaged beyond repair so they set off a self-destruct system put in place by the Secretive agencies with offices there. To quote Hillary 'What difference does it make?' Image of debris crashing into WTC 7 at 1:00, images of fires raging within at 1:04 and 1:25, and excellent visual evidence at 2:00 that would be totally inconsistent with a controlled demolition.
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# ? Sep 16, 2013 15:19 |
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WoodrowSkillson posted:http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4085 Reposting this as we are still talking about building seven and I can only assume peple are just not reading it.
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# ? Sep 16, 2013 15:23 |
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# ? Mar 28, 2024 22:52 |
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Lord Krangdar posted:Does anyone know an example of a widespread conspiracy theory from before the advent of mass media (say, before the printing press was invented)? Would the story of Nero burning Rome count? Pope Joan Augustus assassinated Hirtius and Pansa Ascribing "conspiracy theory" status to perceptions of historical events that developed over centuries is very sketchy, because frankly, it's the norm. The idea that Nero "fiddled while Rome burned" began as a more-or-less poetic statement by Suetonius which was later taken as historical fact. No one in Nero's own time literally believed that he did that, because among other reasons, he partially financed the reconstruction. Edit: That being said, conspiracy theories were common in previous centuries. If anything, they were more rife before there was a mass media to generate consensus beyond the local level in explaining mysterious events. If someone involved in a political rivalry conveniently died, they were rumoured to have been poisoned or assassinated; that one's probably older than the Roman Empire. Early Modern Europe was obsessed with conspiracies involving the papacy or suspect religious groups like Jews and Huguenots. Here's a book about it. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Sep 16, 2013 |
# ? Sep 16, 2013 16:16 |