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HapiMerchant
Apr 22, 2014
I think TvTropes is all the worse because unlike other terrible examples of neckbeardy weeaboo insanity, you can't look at and think "But maybe it's all a joke, maybe someone is taking the piss". With TvTropes, there's just enough depressing realism to assure you that yes, there truly are people in this world who are obsessed with turning every last thing they have ever laid eyes on into a DARK MATURE SEXY version of itself, and/or documenting every last conceivabley sexual thing that every occured in any media they have consumed.


Speaking of Tropers trying to make poo poo edgy and DARK, isn't there a quote about it?

"Only children wish for adulthood, adults revel in childishness" or something? Basically saying "Only immature people want things to be mature and dark"

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Englishman alone
Nov 28, 2013
So decided to look at movies that did get past the censors and were well known for it. Lets look at Sunset Boulevard and see if the troper can see what was gotten past the censors.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Film/SunsetBoulevard

quote:

Getting Crap Past the Radar: It's strongly implied, and among the production crew outright stated, that Norma has been using her pet monkey as a surrogate lover.Which means that the unfortunate Joe caught her on the rebound.
WHAT THE gently caress WHO EVER SAID THAT :psyboom:

quote:

The nature of the relationship between Joe and Norma was also unmentionable in The Hays Code era.
Do they say why the relationship is problematic in the Hays era of course not

quote:

Title Drop: The very first line: "Yes, this is Sunset Boulevard, Los Angeles, California." Interestingly, there is no actual title card, and the first shot simply shows a street marker, so it's still debatable whether the title proper should be Sunset Boulevard or Sunset Blvd.
tropers are morons yes I know its not surprising but come on now this is stupid

quote:

Yandere: Norma. Full stop.
Joe: What I'm trying to say is that I'm all wrong for you. You want a Valentino — somebody with polo ponies — a big shot —
Norma: What you're trying to say is that you don't want me to love you. Is that it?!
(She slaps him and runs upstairs.)
Then, later that evening, she slits her wrists with his razor in a half-hearted suicide attempt.
No comment

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012

RareAcumen posted:

Holy poo poo, are you serious? I never got into it because it looked like they'd be handling it awkwardly and it'd have a love interest and all kindsa stuff I don't care about. I heard about it being really good, like Attack on Titan though so I'm surprised that that of all things got in.

Whoever told you that is a horrible filthy liar. SAO starts as masturbatory wish-fulfilment with a whole bunch of different creepy subtexts, and then the second arc kicks in and things get really ugly. At one point, the villain literally drinks the topless heroine's tears from her face as a 'gently caress you' to the hero.

HapiMerchant
Apr 22, 2014

Darth Walrus posted:

Whoever told you that is a horrible filthy liar. SAO starts as masturbatory wish-fulfilment with a whole bunch of different creepy subtexts, and then the second arc kicks in and things get really ugly. At one point, the villain literally drinks the topless heroine's tears from her face as a 'gently caress you' to the hero.

But that's the best part of the entire show.

Nothing shows pure unadulterated cartoon villainy then literally drinking the tears from a girls face with half-nudity for added creepiness.

Runa
Feb 13, 2011

Friends don't let friends watch SAO.

Lottery of Babylon
Apr 25, 2012

STRAIGHT TROPIN'

This Sword Art Online stuff sounds awful, I bet tropers love it

Sword Art Online Reviews posted:

Sword Art Online arc review by seg 162 24th Jun 14

Arc 2: "Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate" (SPOILERS)

(Don't bother reading the novel. It's just as bad.)

Let's get the incest out of the way, first: it was the most unneeded aspect of this arc. Comes out of nowhere, serves no purpose since the main character is already all but married, doesn't resolve itself, and bears a bit too much of a resemblance to a certain Hentai genre, while using a familiar Cop Out that makes me question why this was done in the first place if it wasn't even going to go all nine miles.

Let's also get the tentacles out of the way.

And the near-Netorare— no, I am not kidding.

And the increased amount of Gainaxing and general fanservice— seeing part of the problem, here?

While SAO had its flaws, it was vanilla— if not tame— with fanservice, and an enjoyable and sometimes tearjerking story. What about the second arc? GAAAAUGH. The flaws from the first arc are not only not fixed, but accentuated. The lack of the death game mechanic found in the first arc makes less thrill. Oh, they're at risk of dying? They can try again! No urgency, and yet... they still act like they were trapped in SAO. Only Kirito has any reason to be freaking out over anything in this arc, because he's trying to rescue his wife who's almost literally a Vogel im Käfig— yes, after becoming a waifu, Asuna becomes a Distressed Damsel. They try to emulate the tension and stakes that the first arc had, but the first arc was a Deadly Game. And this isn't. So, it's kind of silly that they try making a talk about pointless gaming politics suspenseful. It's kind of silly that Leafa cries for Recon after he sacrifices himself by blowing himself up for a mob (which does nothing of value). The "villain" is definitely silly and clichéd and poorly done. And the whole arc is just silly.

But it doesn't acknowledge that.

And that's the other part of the problem. It's brimming with these clichés from run-of-the-mill anime, but it takes itself too seriously unjustly— there's a scene that looks like it came straight from The End Of Evangelion. It expects you to take it seriously, but doesn't properly deliver, and just becomes a condescending cockslap in the face. If it didn't take itself seriously, I wouldn't have much reason to complain.

3/10.

Huh.

I'd say it's just one isolated review, but looking at the YMMV page it's even more negative, and there seems to be a strong consensus that this poo poo got really hosed up in a bad way around the time of something called "Fairy Dance", which I'm going to assume is the same thing.

Somehow, tropers managed to realize that a terrible creepy anime was terrible and creepy. :unsmith:

HapiMerchant posted:

But that's the best part of the entire show.

Nothing shows pure unadulterated cartoon villainy then literally drinking the tears from a girls face with half-nudity for added creepiness.

Too bad you didn't. :smith:

Lottery of Babylon fucked around with this message at 12:43 on Jul 9, 2014

ungulateman
Apr 18, 2012

pretentious fuckwit who isn't half as literate or insightful or clever as he thinks he is

HapiMerchant posted:

Speaking of Tropers trying to make poo poo edgy and DARK, isn't there a quote about it?

"Only children wish for adulthood, adults revel in childishness" or something? Basically saying "Only immature people want things to be mature and dark"

“Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”

- C. S. Lewis

Somfin
Oct 25, 2010

In my🦚 experience🛠️ the big things🌑 don't teach you anything🤷‍♀️.

Nap Ghost

ungulateman posted:

“Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”

- C. S. Lewis

To quote Grant Morrison, in Flex Mentallo:

"Only a bitter little adolescent boy could confuse realism with pessimism."

E: "Astro City Special: Supersonic" is another comic that goes for the jugular on this particular attitude.

Somfin fucked around with this message at 13:56 on Jul 9, 2014

RareAcumen
Dec 28, 2012




Darth Walrus posted:

At one point, the villain literally drinks the topless heroine's tears from her face as a 'gently caress you' to the hero.

HapiMerchant posted:

But that's the best part of the entire show.

Nothing shows pure unadulterated cartoon villainy then literally drinking the tears from a girls face with half-nudity for added creepiness.


Ahahahahaha. That's loving magical. There's moustache twirling villainy and then there's this poo poo which is like doing a cirque du soleil routine on one. ahahahaha, brilliant.

I'm still not watching it though.

SirPhoebos
Dec 10, 2007

WELL THAT JUST HAPPENED!

Does someone have a link to the Bideau thread?

90s Cringe Rock
Nov 29, 2006
:gay:
I was just thinking about him the other day. Well, trying to remember who that crazy internet person who only listened to film soundtracks was. This thread reminded me, and the memories of llama cosplay came flooding back.

The thread is here. May Jerima Precklesdough have mercy on your soul if you read past the OP.

Penny Paper
Dec 31, 2012
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discu...9200&page=1

Short version: They are trying to come up with a "creed" for TV Tropes, and the below is a verbatim quote of the first proposed creed mentioned in the thread:

quote:

We believe in one Mod,
the Tropers, the Almighty,
maker of trope pages and works,
of all things seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Joss Whedon,
the only Writer of Firefly,
eternally forgotten by the Fox,
Network from Network, show from show,
Buffy to Dollhouse,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with his pen.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of sex and conception,
he was born of Lee Stearns,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Rupert Murdoch;
his show suffered and died and was buried.
On the third day it rose again
in fulfillment of the Script;
he ascended into geekdom
and is seated at the right hand of the nerds.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, (but mostly the dead),
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in TV Tropes, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Slayerettes and the Whovians.
With the fandoms and geeks it is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Tropers.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Wiki.
We acknowledge Getting Known for the prevention of vandals.
We look for the resurrection of the Dead Horse Tropes,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

I'm surprised this hasn't been torn apart here. It's ripe for it.

Keromaru5
Dec 28, 2012

Pictured: The Wolf Of Gubbio (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund
Does that mean this time next year, we can expect Tropers to start evangelizing door-to-door?

The Vosgian Beast
Aug 13, 2011

Business is slow

Penny Paper posted:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discu...9200&page=1
I'm surprised this hasn't been torn apart here. It's ripe for it.

IIRC this appeared a while back.

Also that link doesn't work.

echopapa
Jun 2, 2005

El Presidente smiles upon this thread.

Keromaru5 posted:

Does that mean this time next year, we can expect Tropers to start evangelizing door-to-door?

No, that would probably violate their parole.

kazil
Jul 24, 2005

A fancy little mouse🐁!

Keromaru5 posted:

Does that mean this time next year, we can expect Tropers to start evangelizing door-to-door?

Like go outside and meet people? Is there a trope for this type of behavior?

Don Gato
Apr 28, 2013

Actually a bipedal cat.
Grimey Drawer

kazil posted:

Like go outside and meet people? Is there a trope for this type of behavior?

There's a trope for doing the opposite, does that count?

graybook
Oct 10, 2011

pinya~

Don Gato posted:

There's a trope for doing the opposite, does that count?

We'll call it an inversion of that trope and be done for the day.

Penny Paper
Dec 31, 2012

The Vosgian Beast posted:

IIRC this appeared a while back.

Really? Darn.

quote:

Also that link doesn't work.

Sorry about that.

BattleMaster
Aug 14, 2000

Ninjasaurus posted:

Talk about Nightmare Fuel.

As I've learned from this thread, one troper's Nightmare Fuel is another troper's Fetish Fuel.

sweeperbravo
May 18, 2012

AUNT GWEN'S COLD SHAPE (!)

BattleMaster posted:

As I've learned from this thread, one troper's Nightmare Fuel is another troper's Fetish Fuel.

And for some the two go hand-in-hand.

AmiYumi
Oct 10, 2005

I FORGOT TO HAIL KING TORG

Lottery of Babylon posted:

This Sword Art Online stuff sounds awful, I bet tropers love it
Strange. Seems like SAO is exactly the kind of poo poo :tvtropes: loves.

(^ Literally an excerpt from the original novel ^)

Equeen
Oct 29, 2011

Pole dance~

AmiYumi posted:

Strange. Seems like SAO is exactly the kind of poo poo :tvtropes: loves.

(^ Literally an excerpt from the original novel ^)

I've heard that SAO was bad, but holy :barf:

And this from the ORIGINAL work...

Chexoid
Nov 5, 2009

Now that I have this dating robot I can take it easy.

AmiYumi posted:

Strange. Seems like SAO is exactly the kind of poo poo :tvtropes: loves.

(^ Literally an excerpt from the original novel ^)

Haha what no way. Everyone who I saw bash that show just said it was generic wish fulfillment anime bullshit. No way, son.

Suspicious Dish
Sep 24, 2011

2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro
Fun Shoe

AmiYumi posted:

Strange. Seems like SAO is exactly the kind of poo poo :tvtropes: loves.

(^ Literally an excerpt from the original novel ^)

Yet tropers hate it, but ADTRW loves it? Nice going.

Wales Grey
Jun 20, 2012

AmiYumi posted:

Strange. Seems like SAO is exactly the kind of poo poo :tvtropes: loves.

(^ Literally an excerpt from the original novel ^)

Give the author's publisher some credit: they cut that part from the official publications. Unfortunately, they didn't make him re-write the story to be not-awful.

Regalingualius
Jan 7, 2012

We gazed into the eyes of madness... And all we found was horny.




What the fuckity loving gently caress :stonk:

In retrospect, I'm glad I stopped going to my college's anime club shortly after they voted in favor of watching it.

The Shame Boy
Jan 27, 2014

Dead weight, just like this post.


Sweet Jesus how did the animated version handle that part? This poo poo was on Toonami as well!

Arist
Feb 13, 2012

who, me?


HOOLY BOOLY posted:

Sweet Jesus how did the animated version handle that part? This poo poo was on Toonami as well!

It didn't.

Man, I loving love making fun of SAO, but this is turning into kind of a derail.

Arist fucked around with this message at 04:37 on Jul 10, 2014

Jerry Manderbilt
May 31, 2012

No matter how much paperwork I process, it never goes away. It only increases.
I remember when I was at the first spring meeting for my anime club in freshman year of uni, they said "we do weird things for the first meeting of each quarter. Last quarter half the room walked out because we showed breasts..."

Ron Paul Atreides
Apr 19, 2012

Uyghurs situation in Xinjiang? Just a police action, do not fret. Not ongoing genocide like in EVIL Canada.

I am definitely not a tankie.
Wait it's a story about people playing and getting trapped in an mmo or whatever?

It sounds like a lovely rip-off of dotHack

Sham bam bamina!
Nov 6, 2012

ƨtupid cat
Speaking of video games and Japan, I could have sworn that they had cut this page a while back. Guess I was wrong! :v:

Regalingualius
Jan 7, 2012

We gazed into the eyes of madness... And all we found was horny.




From the Discussion page posted:

I think that this highly Freudian fetish is deeply misunderstood not only by its critics, but by many of its fans as well. Despite appearing to be naught but simple misogyny at first glance, it is actually a rather complex and nuanced mental exercise, incorporating elements of:
Sadomasochism: There's an obvious sadomasochistic edge to it. In Ryona, the masculine is synonymous with violence, and the feminine with the property of being beholden to that violence. The more helpless or imperiled the victim, the more pleasure the audience receives. However, one does not necessarily need to be a sadist to enjoy the genre. One may perhaps try to step into the victim's shoes, thus embodying the feminine/masochistic aspect rather than the masculine/sadistic one. Nevertheless, it is very clear that domination/submission plays a key role in the fetish.
Schadenfreude: The audience may place themselves under the false impression that the feminine represents a state of undeserved protection from harm or loss, whether physical, emotional or financial in nature. Part of the... "enjoyment"... (to use the term loosely) of the genre comes from a perceived reversal of this trend. The key is that the audience must create a fantasy world within his or her own mind where the real-world status quo is either irrelevant or does not exist. The viewer must create the illusion that women are over-privileged and deserve to be knocked down a peg from whole cloth. This is the "negative" interpretation method.
Compassion: The audience may desire to experience strong feelings of sympathy towards the victim. They may wish to view a helpless person being brutalized so that they may picture themselves in the role of a rescuer or savior. They may further imagine the victim turning the tables on their tormentor and getting revenge for whatever act provoked the sympathetic response in the audience in the first place. The fetish may seem bizarrely contradictory in that it can embody unrestrained male chauvinism one moment and then amazon feminism in the next, with the dichotomies reversed at the audience's leisure. The part that most people don't understand about the fetish is that partaking in a sort of postmodern, surrealistic act of contradiction is a very important part of the whole experience. The fetish is - itself - highly contrarian and elitist in nature to begin with. This is the "positive" interpretation method.
Extremes: The audience derives pleasure from deeply-juxtaposed and paradoxical representations of human behavior. Their mind internalizes a complex dichotomy of the masculine versus the feminine, the chaste versus the obscene, the normal versus the abnormal, the real versus the unreal. The fetish necessitates that the audience see things in black and white, with little deviation from this formula. Under those conditions, it is only natural that the "victim" role be played by a woman. To the audience, the feminine represents a state of submission. With a few exceptions (see "Compassion" above), attempting to reverse this trend by putting a male individual in the victim role is like pulling a block out of the foundation that the fantasy is built upon. The audience's meticulously-built Jenga tower comes crashing down all around them. It's important to keep in mind that the feminine and masculine are reduced to mere symbols under the precepts of this fetish. The victim and tormentor are not "persons". They are far too two-dimensional for that. Rather, they are simply viewed as manifestations of the audience's own psyche.
Exoticism: The audience has tricked themselves into believing that they're the only ones in the world who possess this fetish/complex, disavowing the existence of like-minded individuals who possess it also. An analogy would be a wealthy millionaire who purchases a Ferrari, convincing himself of the delusion that he is the only "real" Ferrari owner in the world and that all others are illusory. Ryona is likewise highly solipsistic in nature, exploring and deconstructing the very nature of gender roles in fiction. This is a key element of the fetish; one must constantly be in a state of denial about real-world circumstances, constructing deep fantasies about gender relationships that may or may not have a basis in fact.
Ryona isn't so much a genre or a trope as it is a very specific way of interpreting certain events in a fictional context, thus deriving emotional or sexual stimulation from them. It is possible to perceive elements of this fetish or complex in works of pretty much any genre that combines physical conflict with female characters. Books, superhero comics, monster movies, exploitation flicks, video games, tokusatsu shows, etc.
Manifestations of this fetish or complex could perhaps be diagnosed as a form of neurological or psychological disorder, depending on whether or not the individual who possesses this complex suffers any ill effects from it. It could be most closely linked to sadistic or masochistic personality disorders, or even gender identity disorders. The conditions and disorders that underlie Ryona as a fetish may become pathological if the audience extends their simplistic perceptions of fictional characters to the real world (i.e. "It's okay for me to hurt this person because they're not real. They're in my head.")
So, when you tell a Ryona fan that he's sick in the head and that violence against women is commonplace, now you know why he (and it's usually a he) is so quick to lash out in response. He doesn't WANT to think that he's experiencing something common. Real-world violence against women does not interest him or dissuade him in the least. It may even repulse him. Rather, he simply wants to maintain the illusion that violence against women is uncommon and that he is experiencing something exotic and unusual by partaking of fiction that contains violence against women.
Don't take my word for it, though. I'm no psychologist. This is just my own little attempt to analyze the genre as deeply as I can and clear up any misconceptions that some people might harbor over it.

HapiMerchant
Apr 22, 2014

mmm yes my fetish for watching girls get punched in the stomach is so very deep yes this isn't years of rejection manifesting itself at all

Ron Paul Atreides
Apr 19, 2012

Uyghurs situation in Xinjiang? Just a police action, do not fret. Not ongoing genocide like in EVIL Canada.

I am definitely not a tankie.

I only processed like 1% of that as I scrolled by but the words and sentences I did see were very alarming :catstare:

Gimnbo
Feb 13, 2012

e m b r a c e
t r a n q u i l i t y



HapiMerchant posted:

mmm yes my fetish for watching girls get punched in the stomach is so very deep yes this isn't years of rejection manifesting itself at all

It's not even hiding it posted:

The viewer must create the illusion that women are over-privileged and deserve to be knocked down a peg from whole cloth. This is the "negative" interpretation method.

Testekill
Nov 1, 2012

I demand to be taken seriously

:aronrex:

Sham bam bamina! posted:

Speaking of video games and Japan, I could have sworn that they had cut this page a while back. Guess I was wrong! :v:



Now that ain't right.

Krotera
Jun 16, 2013

I AM INTO MATHEMATICAL CALCULATIONS AND MANY METHODS USED IN THE STOCK MARKET
So it's literally "you have to ignore how human relationships work and recast everything in terms of hosed-up gender roles to appreciate this genre," and that's why they're calling it art?

Krotera fucked around with this message at 08:15 on Jul 10, 2014

NobbytheSheep
Sep 2, 2011
I was happy in the haze of a drunken hour, but heaven knows I'm miserable now
That's an awful lot of words about getting off on seeing women being beaten up.

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Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012

NobbytheSheep posted:

That's an awful lot of words about getting off on seeing women being beaten up.

Be fair - sometimes (rarely) they're getting off on dudes getting beaten up. It's half the reason so much bara (translator's note - Japanese gay literature aimed at actual gay men rather than teenage girls) is so goddamned weird.

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