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He may have been trying to be better about it, but there's no reason stoneheart has to see it that way.
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Sep 14, 2013 23:54
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CumFart Gurantee posted:Different strokes for different folks, man. For me, post-rock begins and ends with Mogwai (who rock). They already cast Brienne, and I don't think Stoneheart hangs any other women.
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Sep 15, 2013 00:11
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Stoneheart is not going to give a gently caress about whether Jaime tried to keep his oath or not, she tried to hang Podrick for crissakes.
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Sep 15, 2013 00:18
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The Little Kielbasa posted:Jaime also confessed to crippling/attempting to murder Bran. And he violated his oath to Catelyn (not to take up arms against the Tullys) in about the most egregious way possible (marching a huge Lannister army to expel the Tullys from Riverrun and install Frey-Lannisters in their place, threatening to catapult Edmure's unborn baby along the way). She has plenty of legitimate reasons to kill him. He doesn't march any armies, he only has a small group to escort him to two very long running sieges. Both of which he ends without further bloodshed and in both cases slights the people running the sieges.
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Sep 15, 2013 01:24
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Stoneheart is not going to give a gently caress about whether Jaime tried to keep his oath or not, she tried to hang Podrick for crissakes. Well, she's been left kind of retarded by dying.
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Sep 15, 2013 01:52
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Well as far as she can tell Jaime made it back to King's Landing, laughed at his oath, let Tywin marry Sansa to Tyrion and then arranged Robb and Catelyn's assassinations with the Boltons and Freys. Brienne's statements while holding a gilded Lannister sword weren't going to be particularly convincing.
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Sep 15, 2013 02:03
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Let's not forget he pushed Bran out of a window because he was caught loving his sister. The dude attempted to kill an innocent child. I don't buy into the whole 'at-least he has honor" theme at all. He is a terrible person who is starting to almost feel as sorry for others as he feels for himself because of his current poor circumstances. He's cursed for what he's done, and it's cool that he may be trying to do some good on his way to the grave, but I will be pretty disappointed (after all of the characters we have lost) if his story doesn't end hanging from a rope.
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Sep 15, 2013 02:26
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Baldbeard posted:Let's not forget he pushed Bran out of a window because he was caught loving his sister. The dude attempted to kill an innocent child. I don't buy into the whole 'at-least he has honor" theme at all. He is a terrible person who is starting to almost feel as sorry for others as he feels for himself because of his current poor circumstances. He's cursed for what he's done, and it's cool that he may be trying to do some good on his way to the grave, but I will be pretty disappointed (after all of the characters we have lost) if his story doesn't end hanging from a rope. His story could very possibly end with him willingly going to that rope.
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Sep 15, 2013 02:34
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He won't be hanging from a rope. Killing someone to put a Targ on the throne would be much more likely.
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Sep 15, 2013 02:34
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There'e also a bit of black humor with Roose saying that to Robb as he is also murdering his King. That and twisting the knife in Caitlyn's gut as she thinks releasing Jaime was the reason it happened.
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Sep 15, 2013 02:53
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Baldbeard posted:The dude attempted to kill an innocent child. No, he attempted to kill a sneaky little loving spy who stuck his nose where it had no business being.
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Sep 15, 2013 03:39
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Fatkraken posted:Also I love the new thread title, it's just close enough to be a spoiler that some people are going to get super butthurt but it's such an obscure pun that it doesn't actually spoil anyone who is show only. Holy poo poo I just got it. Awesome
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Sep 15, 2013 06:55
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:Well, she's been left kind of retarded by dying. As a counterargument, I'll remind you of the time she captured Tyrion Lannister for no good reason and started a war that's killed thousands. Baldbeard posted:The dude attempted to kill an innocent child. To save three innocent children. OK, two innocent children and a psychopath.
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Sep 15, 2013 20:11
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So the Tully sisters were never the sharpest swords in the garrison. 
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Sep 15, 2013 20:30
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rypakal posted:To save three innocent children. OK, two innocent children and a psychopath. I'm sure that's what was going through his head and not, "I won't get to gently caress my sister anymore!!!!"
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Sep 15, 2013 20:32
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Why did House Tully agree to be vassals to the North during the rebellion?
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Sep 15, 2013 20:39
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rypakal posted:As a counterargument, I'll remind you of the time she captured Tyrion Lannister for no good reason and started a war that's killed thousands. No. That counts for absolutely nothing. If it's for the children they would, you know, not bang each other. Every time they have sex they risk getting caught and having their children killed. So they keep having sex, then when they get caught, they kill whoever finds them, including a child, to save their children? Jaime commits atrocities for his own benefit in the same spirit any of the 'true bad' characters do in the book. Him killing Bran so his sister-banging secret is safe is just as bad as the mountain raping kids, Biter biting women's faces and breasts off, or Ramsey torturing people. The only difference is Jamie throws in a few good acts too and touts the "I'm so misunderstood" card. It's hard to feel sorry for Jaime when his entire life is paved out for him in glory and success as a Lannister heir. Meanwhile Tyrion gets the true poo poo end of the stick, and still manages to keep it together without killing kids.
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Sep 15, 2013 20:41
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Baron Porkface posted:Why did House Tully agree to be vassals to the North during the rebellion? They're too small to stand on their own - better to be the sole vassal of your nephew than one of many vassals to some twit you don't care about.
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Sep 15, 2013 20:44
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Baldbeard posted:Him killing Bran so his sister-banging secret is safe is just as bad as the mountain raping kids, Biter biting women's faces and breasts off, or Ramsey torturing people. I think I can safely say this conversation is over.
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Sep 15, 2013 21:01
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Maybe Biter wouldn't have been so bad if he'd just been loved as a boy. But no, Robert's bloody war took lil' Biter's dad away. May the Seven never let you find any peace in this life or the next, Robert Baratheon. This is on your head, not Biter's. 
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Sep 15, 2013 21:06
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rypakal posted:I think I can safely say this conversation is over. Well that's almost as good as a counterpoint I guess.
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Sep 15, 2013 21:53
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One of the reasons I love Jaime's character so much is because he's done things that are legit evil and legit awesome, and no matter how he evolves the audience will never be able to fully reconcile his new leaf with his previous actions. Media is full of bad boys who are *really secretly good inside,* you just have to get past their surly attitude and angst about past misdeeds, which usually turn out to be not that bad or not their fault. But we can't get past Jaime loving his sister and paralyzing an innocent child in an attempted murder. No matter what he does or how much he changes, there's always That, and That is what makes him stand out from the pack. The reader should and always will feel conflicted about him, because Jaime evokes such strong, opposite emotions. NOT being able to successfully pin down his alignment is what makes him great.
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Sep 15, 2013 22:03
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Crisco Kid posted:One of the reasons I love Jaime's character so much is because he's done things that are legit evil and legit awesome, and no matter how he evolves the audience will never be able to fully reconcile his new leaf with his previous actions.
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Sep 15, 2013 22:06
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Crisco Kid posted:One of the reasons I love Jaime's character so much is because he's done things that are legit evil and legit awesome, and no matter how he evolves the audience will never be able to fully reconcile his new leaf with his previous actions. I really like the character Theon for kind of the same reasoning. His betrayal of the Starks, or more specifically all of the terrible stuff he did throughout the betrayal, are truly unforgivable. At the same time, it's really hard not to feel sympathy for him after what he's been through since then. It's not even about "is he good or bad" it's more like "Wow, does anyone deserve this?" I just think Jaime's transformation came off as forced. While reading I kept thinking to myself, "am I really supposed to have a change of heart here?" E: Maybe it was his, "The things I do for love" 1-liner as he pushed Bran out the window that really sold me on the idea that he doesn't really give a gently caress. Baldbeard fucked around with this message at 22:28 on Sep 15, 2013 |
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Sep 15, 2013 22:25
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I don't think you're supposed to come out the other side of Jaime's trials and think "oh, his past actions are excused, he's actually a good guy!" but to realize that he's just a person who's made choices which even he himself sometimes regrets. He's conflicted and often unsure about how he feels about who Jaime Lannister is, if he's a person who deserves what he has, and these are the things which make him one of the best characters. He's multifaceted in a way not many of the other characters in the series are.
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Sep 15, 2013 22:30
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Baron Porkface posted:Why did House Tully agree to be vassals to the North during the rebellion? Their big sister being the King's mother is a good reason.
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Sep 15, 2013 22:40
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Baldbeard posted:
My thoughts exactly. But I'd say his development is towards giving a gently caress. He starts off like the Hound, with absolute contempt for everyone around him once he realises the rotting hypocrisy of the nobility. But by the time of Dance he's got his act together and figured out that everyone else being terrible doesn't give him an excuse to be. I thought the show did this really well, when he's tied to Brienne on the horse. He starts being typically unpleasant, taunting her about being raped, then he reigns it in and actually looks like he's starting to care for her.
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Sep 15, 2013 22:40
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Baldbeard posted:E: Maybe it was his, "The things I do for love" 1-liner as he pushed Bran out the window that really sold me on the idea that he doesn't really give a gently caress. The "The things I do for love" line is much more bitter in the books. I don't think it's supposed to be read as flippant at all, it's too sardonic to a one-liner. The reason Jaime shoves Bran (after catching him and pulling him back up) is because he thinks that is what Cersei wants him to do. She would later say that she would have threatened Bran into staying silent, but at the time she seems rather desperate ("He saw us," she said shrilly/"what are you doing?" she demanded [after Jaime pulls Bran back up]). This isn't a justification, and I don't think pushing Bran gave Jaime any sleepless nights or anything, but I don't think he took any joy in it.
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Sep 15, 2013 22:56
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Strom Cuzewon posted:My thoughts exactly. But I'd say his development is towards giving a gently caress. He starts off like the Hound, with absolute contempt for everyone around him once he realises the rotting hypocrisy of the nobility. But by the time of Dance he's got his act together and figured out that everyone else being terrible doesn't give him an excuse to be. I thought the show did this really well, when he's tied to Brienne on the horse. He starts being typically unpleasant, taunting her about being raped, then he reigns it in and actually looks like he's starting to care for her. Yeah he's definitely acting with more compassion as the story is progressing. I'm comfortable with him being a bad guy who's starting to realize how bad he is and trying to right some wrongs. I just don't quite see him as the moral middle-ground character as a lot of people do. His interactions with Brienne are probably the most interesting parts of his story. The way his taunts slowly lose venom, and almost become like a comrade-to-comrade teasing was done really well in both the books and the show.
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Sep 15, 2013 22:57
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Baldbeard posted:Yeah he's definitely acting with more compassion as the story is progressing. I'm comfortable with him being a bad guy who's starting to realize how bad he is and trying to right some wrongs. I just don't quite see him as the moral middle-ground character as a lot of people do. His interactions with Brienne are probably the most interesting parts of his story. The way his taunts slowly lose venom, and almost become like a comrade-to-comrade teasing was done really well in both the books and the show. I'd like to think his change might save his life if he faces Stoneheart, but that's probably wishful thinking. Speaking of her, where do you think that's headed in TWOW? Wasn't one of the Brotherhood musician guys infiltrating Emmon Frey's court at Riverrun? This may be wishful thinking, but I've thought that a juicy revenge would be for the Brotherhood to infiltrate the Freys, get to take part in a wedding at the Twins, and then pull a Red Wedding of their own by massacring the Freys within their own home. Probably a bit too farfetched, but... I can dream, right? 
Yureina fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Sep 15, 2013 |
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Sep 15, 2013 23:16
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Baron Porkface posted:Why did House Tully agree to be vassals to the North during the rebellion? Their allegiances have been cemented to Winterfell since Ned and Catelyn's wedding, so whichever two rebellions you're talking about, they would be obliged to stand by the North.
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Sep 15, 2013 23:29
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I'm pretty convinced that Cat is going to get a chance to redeem herself before the end. With half a dozen separate armageddons descending on Westeros I can't see the Brotherhood remaining as any significant player, but I can see Cat coming out of her Stoneheart phase if she ever realizes she has children who are alive and relatively safe, and if she founds out the truth behind Jon's parentage. If she ever realizes what a horrible person she was to Ned when he had sacrificed so much for Jon, then I think she might try to make up for it. I don't know how, but I really hope it comes in whatever form it may come, because it will be a long time in coming and I refuse to believe that there are no happy endings in the final acts.
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Sep 15, 2013 23:45
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MrBims posted:I'm pretty convinced that Cat is going to get a chance to redeem herself before the end. With half a dozen separate armageddons descending on Westeros I can't see the Brotherhood remaining as any significant player, but I can see Cat coming out of her Stoneheart phase if she ever realizes she has children who are alive and relatively safe, and if she founds out the truth behind Jon's parentage. If she ever realizes what a horrible person she was to Ned when he had sacrificed so much for Jon, then I think she might try to make up for it. I don't know how, but I really hope it comes in whatever form it may come, because it will be a long time in coming and I refuse to believe that there are no happy endings in the final acts. Maybe not no happy endings, but Catelyn seems like an easy target for one last miserable failure before George has to begrudgingly start letting some characters succeed and grow from their character arcs. The Jaime/Brienne/Catelyn showdown can't possibly end with the three of them still alive (or at least undead), and Jaime and Brienne seem like they have more they could do afterward while Catelyn sort of loses narrative purpose if they're dead. Catelyn never finding out Jon's true parentage and regretting all her anger at him and Ned, never finding out four of her children are actually alive, never getting revenge or justice or catharsis and dying in a hole seems like the right sort of gutpunch ending for a major character's arc that George would go for. The Catelyn we know from when she was a perspective character and all her arcs and development truly died at the Red Wedding, all that's left is a near-literal shade who's just propping up her parts of other peoples' stories.
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Sep 15, 2013 23:56
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Brienne realising the lady to whom she had sworn an oath has become a monster, and deciding to become an oathbreaker by killing her to save the lives of innocents, would be a very neat parallel to Jaime doing the same thing with Aerys. Way too neat, I think, for ol' George. (Same reason I don't expect Sandor to become the Faith's champion against un-Gregor, or Arya being sent to kill Sansa/Littlefinger/insert important character.)
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Sep 16, 2013 00:21
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Jon has to kill her by cutting off her head with valyrian steel and saying it should have been you. It is known.
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Sep 16, 2013 00:33
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George loves to say in interviews how he likes the idea that being brought back from the dead leaves characters somehow broken. We see Drogo's total ruin after being saved by the shaman and Dondarrion's uneasy feeling that some of him has been left behind. That's a pretty huge variance, and so I'm super curious as to how far gone Cat is. If she embraces here cynical/revenge side, there's plenty to play of off. But really I hope the red wedding absolutely broke her, and she's a total monster now. I think how she acted when she thought Bran was dying was a foreshadowing of how she will act now. She went basically batshit insane, and we saw actual cruelness. Now magnify that a hundreds times and you have her state of mind at the red wedding......and now break her further through bringing her back. She has to be nuts. Baldbeard fucked around with this message at 00:41 on Sep 16, 2013 |
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Sep 16, 2013 00:38
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Her little sister didn't even need her child to die to go insane. Well, actually she did lose a child come to think of it...
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Sep 16, 2013 00:58
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Funso Banjo posted:Oh dear, "Sigur Ros as The Bastard's Boys Progressive Space Yodelers" Sigur Ros is actually fairly well known as far as post-rock groups go. They're also fairly well liked by a lot of people.
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Sep 16, 2013 01:09
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NihilCredo posted:Brienne realising the lady to whom she had sworn an oath has become a monster, and deciding to become an oathbreaker by killing her to save the lives of innocents, would be a very neat parallel to Jaime doing the same thing with Aerys. Actually, it seems pretty in-character. the "joke" or subversion at the end will be that Brienne will be applauded for it because she killed the monster that was killing everyone in the Riverlands (that wasn't Gregor).
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Sep 16, 2013 01:13
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In It For The Tank posted:
Where do I know her from? Her IMDB listing is either wrong or someone else's. But I so know her from somewhere. In It For The Tank posted:
Everytime someone form Rome turns up I'm happy. In It For The Tank posted:
Thank fuckery. Not Conan, but close enough. No Kebab store guy crushing my Oberyn's head. In It For The Tank posted:
This is perfect. Still don't understand why all the mystery. In It For The Tank posted:
Uh, what happened here?
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