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tzirean
May 1, 2007



Let's get this out of the way: professional wrestling is not a sport in the sense most people mean, and thus it can be unclear as to how relevant a Hall of Fame is and what the qualifications are. As a result, there are several different Halls of Fame. While the WON and the WWE Halls typically get most of the discussion, they're not alone, for better or worse.

Wrestling Observer Newsletter Hall of Fame (Dave Meltzer)
Founded: 1996
Members: 197 (including 5 tag teams)
Notable Inclusions: Chris Benoit (a 2008 recall vote failed), Kurt Angle
Notable Exclusions: Sting
2014 Inductees: Atlantis, Henri Deglane, Dr. Wagner, Takashi Matsunaga, Kensuke Sasaki, Hiroshi Tanahashi

The WON Hall of Fame frequently inducts active wrestlers, simply requiring either 15 years of experience or 10 years of experience for wrestlers older than 35, unlike the typical modus operandi for a Hall of Fame. Therefore, you can still see WON Hall of Fame inductees like John Cena (2012), Triple H (2005), the Undertaker (2004), Kurt Angle (2004), Paul Heyman (2005) and Rey Mysterio, Jr. (2010) on television. Also unlike the other major wrestling Hall of Fame, there's an actual voting process for the WON Hall, and wrestlers need 60% of the vote to be admitted. Recall votes also require 60% to pass, which is why Chris Benoit (inducted 2003; 54% recall vote) has not been removed.

Generally considered the "serious" of the two major Halls, with a stronger focus on pioneers, promoters and commentators, as well as having the most substantial women's wrestling section. As such, there are more posthumous inductees than other halls (50% of the 2012 class was inducted posthumously, and no member of the 2011 class was alive to know about their induction).

WWE Hall of Fame (WWE)
Founded: 1994 (no inductees 1997–2003)
Members: 119 (as of April 5, 2014)
Notable Inclusions: Ric Flair twice (on his own and as part of the Four Horsemen), Koko B. Ware, Donald Trump, Drew Carey
Notable Exclusions: Randy Savage
2014 Inductees: Paul Bearer, Carlos Colón, Lita, Jake Roberts, Mr. T, Ultimate Warrior

In contrast to the WON Hall of Fame, WWE's is very entertainment-centric, which is why you see Trump, Carey, Mike Tyson and Bob Eucker in the last five years (as well as Pete Rose in the re-inaugural class of 2004). It's also, understandably, very WWE-centric, with people who wouldn't sniff any other Hall getting in on the basis of their WWE careers (Yokozuna), which are sometimes pretty slim in their own right (Koko B. Ware). However, there's been a strong push to make the WWE Hall of Fame at least somewhat relevant wrestling-wide, leading to inductees such as Antonio Inoki (2010), Mil Máscaras (2012), Abdullah the Butcher (2011), Gordon Solie (2008), and Mad Dog Vachon (2010).

Very few posthumous inductees, particularly when compared to the WON Hall of Fame. Obviously much more political than the WON Hall, as well; Bruno Sammartino refused to be inducted for several years, and the Ultimate Warrior, who's certainly more deserving by the WWE Hall's standards than numerous other inductees, isn't in. The exclusion of Randy Savage was more of a two-way street, but with Savage deceased and his brother Lanny Poffo stating that he won't deny the WWE permission to induct him if they decide to, it's likely just a matter of time.

Professional Wrestling Hall of Fame and Museum (Independent)
Founded: 2002
Members: 133 (including 11 tag teams)
Notable Inclusions: Ivan Koloff, Paul Orndorff
Notable Exclusions: Shawn Michaels, Steve Austin, most of Japan
2014 Inductees: Bruiser Brody, Bill Eadie, the Fargos, Gary Hart, Stu Hart, Lord Alfred Hayes, Sherri Martel, Leroy McGuirk, Mr. Wrestling II, Don Muraco

Unaffiliated with any other entity, the Professional Wrestling Hall of Fame distinguishes itself from the other two by actually having a physical building one can visit, located in Amsterdam, NY. Inductees must either be dead or over 50, and must have been in the business for 20 years barring "injury, illness or death." Following the thirteen members of the inaugural Class of 2002 (of which only two, Bruno Sammartino and Ricky Steamboat, were alive), they have settled into a routine of ten inductions per year, of which two come from the "Pioneer Era," two come from the "Television Era," two come from the "Modern Era," one or two are "International," one is a "Lady Wrestler," one is a "Tag Team" and one is a "Colleague" (promoter or commentator).

As such, the PWHF has a very high spread, but one could argue, comparatively low depth. Only Rikidozan (2006), Giant Baba (2008) and Antonio Inoki (2009) wrestled primarily in Japan, and Mexico's lone representatives are Mil Máscaras (2010) and El Santo (2013). However, this is not a small-time, fan-only operation; the selection committee includes Jim Cornette, Harley Race, Roddy Piper, Ted DiBiase, Stan Hansen, Terry Funk, Wendi Richter and Tim Hornbaker, plus about 20 others.

TNA Hall of Fame (TNA)
Founded: 2012
Members: 2
Notable Inclusions: Sting!, Kurt Angle
Notable Exclusions: Every other wrestler ever
2014 Inductee: Kurt Angle (belated)

tzirean fucked around with this message at Mar 19, 2014 around 15:24

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achillesforever6
Apr 23, 2012

Everyone talks about how awesome Achilles is, but did he ever made the god of war his bitch?


Sadly Diomedesforever6 just doesn't ring as well as Achillesforever6

So Koko B Ware is basically the Lynn Swann of the WWE HOF right?

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


achillesforever6 posted:

So Koko B Ware is basically the Lynn Swann of the WWE HOF right?

What does that make Vince's limo driver?

jeffersonlives
Jul 22, 2007

"Mathewson pitched against Cincinnati yesterday. Another way of putting it is that Cincinnati lost a game of baseball."


achillesforever6 posted:

So Koko B Ware is basically the Lynn Swann of the WWE HOF right?

Eh, this presupposes there's any real legitimacy to the WWE HOF process. It's not why that thing exists.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA

In terms of the Observer HOF and notable exclusions in terms of voters and people who care about such things the most notable exclusions right now are the Rock N Roll Express and Dick Murdoch. Murdoch is valued extremely highly by his peers and not very highly (in terms of voting) by others, while the RnRs keep getting close. LA Park and Edge are other interesting cases, Park may get in eventually but I don't believe Edge has been doing well.

Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People

MassRafTer posted:

LA Park and Edge are other interesting cases, Park may get in eventually but I don't believe Edge has been doing well.



Is there a Lucha Hall of Fame down in Mexico?

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA

Gaz-L posted:

What does that make Vince's limo driver?

He wins the Jim Rice WAR game.

jeffersonlives
Jul 22, 2007

"Mathewson pitched against Cincinnati yesterday. Another way of putting it is that Cincinnati lost a game of baseball."


Edge got 37 percent last year and Dave made comments after the vote making the case to put him in. I would think he'll get in sooner or later because his career will probably look better with more perspective, but I'm not sure how long it'll take.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA

jeffersonlives posted:

Edge got 37 percent last year and Dave made comments after the vote making the case to put him in. I would think he'll get in sooner or later because his career will probably look better with more perspective, but I'm not sure how long it'll take.

Do you happen to remember which issue had the vote totals?

jeffersonlives
Jul 22, 2007

"Mathewson pitched against Cincinnati yesterday. Another way of putting it is that Cincinnati lost a game of baseball."


MassRafTer posted:

Do you happen to remember which issue had the vote totals?

Here you go.

Jesse Ventura is probably the most polarizing guy that isn't currently in amongst the actual voting electorate, FWIW.

tzirean
May 1, 2007



MassRafTer posted:

In terms of the Observer HOF and notable exclusions in terms of voters and people who care about such things the most notable exclusions right now are the Rock N Roll Express and Dick Murdoch. Murdoch is valued extremely highly by his peers and not very highly (in terms of voting) by others, while the RnRs keep getting close. LA Park and Edge are other interesting cases, Park may get in eventually but I don't believe Edge has been doing well.

It was hard to do the exclusions for the Observer because I tend to look at the Observer as the objective standard; I only listed Sting because that's how this whole loving thing started (and I genuinely thought the RnRs were in).

rovert
Jun 10, 2013


jeffersonlives posted:

Edge got 37 percent last year and Dave made comments after the vote making the case to put him in. I would think he'll get in sooner or later because his career will probably look better with more perspective, but I'm not sure how long it'll take.

With Cena voted in last year you would have to think that votes will largely fall to Edge this year.

jeffersonlives
Jul 22, 2007

"Mathewson pitched against Cincinnati yesterday. Another way of putting it is that Cincinnati lost a game of baseball."


rovert posted:

With Cena voted in last year you would have to think that votes will largely fall to Edge this year.

Right, and the only new modern American candidate is AJ Styles who is going to get few if any votes. I think that gives a lot of guys on that ballot a shot, but Ivan Koloff, Edge, and Sting are probably the best bets in roughly that order.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA

jeffersonlives posted:

Here you go.

Jesse Ventura is probably the most polarizing guy that isn't currently in amongst the actual voting electorate, FWIW.

Thanks. I forgot about Ventura too, that's a fun case given how loving awful he was in the ring.

Thauros
Jan 29, 2003

qu'un sang impur abreuve nos sillons

Are there any good reasons why the Midnight Express is in as a team but not the R&R Express? I always associate the two teams together and figured they deserved equal credit for the success of their famous feud. I'll be the first to admit though that I was hardly the best judge of workrate at the time and my knowledge of business figures of the period is slim.


I know thanks to cocotube on Tuesday that Stan Lane was in another very successful tag team while in Memphis, but I assume that wouldn't figure into the equation when evaluating Midnight Express as a team.

Bigass Moth
Mar 6, 2004



What are the current opinions on these people who aren't in the WON HOF?

Steiner Brothers
Akira Taue
Lita
Booker T
Taiyo Kea
Great Sasuke
Villano III
Terry Gordy
Gerald Brisco

I'm not sure how Lita stacks up against women all-time, but she was by far the most popular woman wrestler in America during the most popular wrestling period ever. The rest I would like to hear arguments for/against.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA

Thauros posted:

Are there any good reasons why the Midnight Express is in as a team but not the R&R Express? I always associate the two teams together and figured they deserved equal credit for the success of their famous feud. I'll be the first to admit though that I was hardly the best judge of workrate at the time and my knowledge of business figures of the period is slim.


I know thanks to cocotube on Tuesday that Stan Lane was in another very successful tag team while in Memphis, but I assume that wouldn't figure into the equation when evaluating Midnight Express as a team.

They are often seen as equals today because of their feud, but the Midnights were even better in the ring and had more drawing power region by region. The Rock n Rolls had some problems going into territories where a Fabulous Ones ripoff had already been introduced.

El Gallinero Gros
Mar 17, 2010


Bigass Moth posted:

What are the current opinions on these people who aren't in the WON HOF?

Steiner Brothers
Akira Taue
Lita
Booker T
Taiyo Kea
Great Sasuke
Villano III
Terry Gordy
Gerald Brisco

I'm not sure how Lita stacks up against women all-time, but she was by far the most popular woman wrestler in America during the most popular wrestling period ever. The rest I would like to hear arguments for/against.

I feel Sasuke probably belongs. He was a world-class worker for a number of years, and Michinoku Pro was super influential in Japanese wrestling, IMO.

Thauros
Jan 29, 2003

qu'un sang impur abreuve nos sillons

El Gallinero Gros posted:

I feel Sasuke probably belongs. He was a world-class worker for a number of years, and Michinoku Pro was super influential in Japanese wrestling, IMO.

Yeah, I'm biased because I'm a total mark for flippy Japanese guys in masks, but that exclusion kinda shocks me given his workrate, career length, and influence.


Also worth noting that Gordy is in already as part of the Freebirds.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA

Bigass Moth posted:

What are the current opinions on these people who aren't in the WON HOF?

Steiner Brothers
Akira Taue
Lita
Booker T
Taiyo Kea
Great Sasuke
Villano III
Terry Gordy
Gerald Brisco

I'm not sure how Lita stacks up against women all-time, but she was by far the most popular woman wrestler in America during the most popular wrestling period ever. The rest I would like to hear arguments for/against.

The Steiners had a relatively short peak, after Scott got sort of exposed with Flair and his injury the team was never great again.

Taue just isn't seen as great on his own and flopped on top.

Lita wasn't a good worker and while she was as close to a draw as you'll have in American women's wrestling these days, it doesn't compare to other great women in Japan.

Booker was never a world class worker or draw. He had some very good matches, but few that would be called great and nothing on the MOTY level.

I don't really know the view on the next four, but I know Gerald Brisco isn't close to the level of worker or draw his brother was and if it wasn't for his name and backstage career in WWE he wouldn't be remembered today.

Eat My Fuc
May 29, 2007



Bigass Moth posted:

What are the current opinions on these people who aren't in the WON HOF?

Steiner Brothers
Akira Taue
Lita
Booker T
Taiyo Kea
Great Sasuke
Villano III
Terry Gordy
Gerald Brisco

I'm not sure how Lita stacks up against women all-time, but she was by far the most popular woman wrestler in America during the most popular wrestling period ever. The rest I would like to hear arguments for/against.

I think Booker T should be in. I always found his ring work fantastic and his promo skills as well. He climbed his way to the top of the industry not once but twice, and seems to be a generally well respected guy in the business.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA

Eat My Fuc posted:

I think Booker T should be in. I always found his ring work fantastic and his promo skills as well. He climbed his way to the top of the industry not once but twice, and seems to be a generally well respected guy in the business.

Booker T never got to the top of the industry. He was on top of WCW when it was a distant #2 and held the #2 title in WWE. He also had a god awful run in TNA where he clearly didn't give a poo poo. I can't think of any WWE matches he had that stand out as great either. He was someone who worked to the level of his opponent.

KungFu Grip
Jun 18, 2008



Hey guys what about Big Daddy?

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA

KungFu Grip posted:

Hey guys what about Big Daddy?

Was fat.

Valeyard
Mar 30, 2012

bran mind controls a dragon and kills danaerys


KungFu Grip posted:

Hey guys what about Big Daddy?

this argument was bad enough to listen to please do not subject us to reading about it

Eat My Fuc
May 29, 2007



MassRafTer posted:

Booker T never got to the top of the industry. He was on top of WCW when it was a distant #2 and held the #2 title in WWE. He also had a god awful run in TNA where he clearly didn't give a poo poo. I can't think of any WWE matches he had that stand out as great either. He was someone who worked to the level of his opponent.

I think him getting to feud with Austin pretty much means you're a top guy but that's just my analysis.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA

Eat My Fuc posted:

I think him getting to feud with Austin pretty much means you're a top guy but that's just my analysis.

I wouldn't say that Rikishi was a top guy.

tzirean
May 1, 2007



Bigass Moth posted:

What are the current opinions on these people who aren't in the WON HOF?

Steiner Brothers
Akira Taue
Lita
Booker T
Taiyo Kea
Great Sasuke
Villano III
Terry Gordy
Gerald Brisco

I'm not sure how Lita stacks up against women all-time, but she was by far the most popular woman wrestler in America during the most popular wrestling period ever. The rest I would like to hear arguments for/against.

Steiners: Just outside. They could have gotten there, but they needed another great year and another solid year or two.

Taue: Kind of the Forrest Gump of AJPW; he was always around the top but he was never the top. Of his dozen-plus five-star matches, only one was a singles match (vs. Misawa), which, while no small feat, sets him apart from the trifecta. It was also, by default, the only one of his five-stars that didn't have both Kawada and Misawa. And then he was basically nothing in NOAH.

Lita: She couldn't carry a match, her punches were nearly business-exposing, and her charisma and popularity don't quite make up for it.

Booker T: Basically Sting.

Taiyo Kea: I like him, but nope.

Sasuke: Quite possibly should be in.

Villano III: I'm not qualified to say, I don't think. Solid worker, his hair vs. mask match records are wonderful, but I don't have much context for him.

Terry Gordy: He's in as a Freebird.

Gerald Brisco: Nah.

Price Check
Oct 9, 2012


Bigass Moth posted:

What are the current opinions on these people who aren't in the WON HOF?

Steiner Brothers
Akira Taue
Lita
Booker T
Taiyo Kea
Great Sasuke
Villano III
Terry Gordy
Gerald Brisco

I'm not sure how Lita stacks up against women all-time, but she was by far the most popular woman wrestler in America during the most popular wrestling period ever. The rest I would like to hear arguments for/against.

Taue should be in. I know he's seen as being below the level of the other guys at that time, but it's hard for me to say that he was carried in all those great matches. I guess I get it, but it just seems like all four of those guys should be in.

Lita will probably get into the WWE HOF this year, but I don't see her making it into the Observer.

Sasuke should be in for the same reason as Ultimo Drago. Almost the exact same reason, in fact.

Terry Gordy should be in as well based on his work in the territories and his fantastic in-ring work in Japan.

RnR is a shocking exclusion and even a little confusing.

KungFu Grip
Jun 18, 2008



My favorite wrestling Hall of Fame is the Asylum Hardcore Hall of Fame with such greats as Zandig and Trent Acid.

UltimoDragonQuest
Oct 5, 2011



Will Dave's argument for Lesnar ever gain any support from the voters? In the last 5 years name someone who convinced more wrestling fans to buy a PPV than Brock.


Jerry Jarrett should be in for promoting.

KungFu Grip
Jun 18, 2008



UltimoDragonQuest posted:

Will Dave's argument for Lesnar ever gain any support from the voters? In the last 5 years name someone who convinced more wrestling fans to buy a PPV than Brock.

Are we talking about MMA or Pro Wrestling?

jeffersonlives
Jul 22, 2007

"Mathewson pitched against Cincinnati yesterday. Another way of putting it is that Cincinnati lost a game of baseball."


UltimoDragonQuest posted:

Will Dave's argument for Lesnar ever gain any support from the voters? In the last 5 years name someone who convinced more wrestling fans to buy a PPV than Brock.


Jerry Jarrett should be in for promoting.

The Rock, probably John Cena

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA

KungFu Grip posted:

Are we talking about MMA or Pro Wrestling?

Dave thinks his drawing in MMA should count. I don't really buy it.

Stallion Cabana
Feb 14, 2012
1; Get into Grad School

2; Become better at playing Tabletop, both as a player and as a GM/ST/W/E

3; Get rid of this goddamn avatar.

I would like Brock Lesnar in a Hall of Fame.

WWE or WON, I don't care which.

He's a really good draw, and has pretty good matches when he gives a poo poo. He's very good at promos without saying anything, just staring and being menacing.

I'm also a fanboy so I might be lying.

Bigass Moth
Mar 6, 2004



MassRafTer posted:

Dave thinks his drawing in MMA should count. I don't really buy it.

If it counts for Sakuraba it should count for Lesnar.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.

OTOH, if Lesnar's MMA drawing comes into account, doesn't his very erratic MMA performance? Does MMA enjoy some special consideration where only the good parts of your career are taken into consideration? That certainly seems to be the case with Sakuraba.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA

Stallion Cabana posted:

I would like Brock Lesnar in a Hall of Fame.

WWE or WON, I don't care which.

He's a really good draw, and has pretty good matches when he gives a poo poo. He's very good at promos without saying anything, just staring and being menacing.

I'm also a fanboy so I might be lying.

He'll definitely get in the WWE HoF as long as there isn't another major blow up between the two sides.

jeffersonlives
Jul 22, 2007

"Mathewson pitched against Cincinnati yesterday. Another way of putting it is that Cincinnati lost a game of baseball."


Bigass Moth posted:

If it counts for Sakuraba it should count for Lesnar.

Eh, MMA in PRIDE-era Japan and MMA in modern America are totally different animals, and what Saku did was much closer to pro graps than what Lesnar did.

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UltimoDragonQuest
Oct 5, 2011



I hope Jimmy Hart does well when he's added to the ballot this year.

Jim Johnston should at least be in the WWE Hall of Fame.

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