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Bacter posted:Dave, I don't want to come across as ungrateful for the series - I'd very eagerly look forward to another game in this continuity! I'm just spitting out whatever came into my head. Hah! Perhaps. I probably won't be doing another game with Bestowers/spirit guides again. Or at least, not a game with them as the player character. quote:Oh! Hey! Another WOD QUESTION I can only assume so! Where-ever he ended up, it's gotta be better then Jersey.
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Jul 28, 2014 19:10
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a cartoon duck posted:Might as well ask this again. How exactly did the original plans with Jocelyn in the Void look? As nice as the scenes with Rosa and Lauren in the Void are, I always felt it was a pity we never got a chance to see Jocelyn reflect on how things spiraled way out of control from her banishing Madeline. Would she felt sorry or responsible for what happened or something else entirely? Plus I felt the final scene in the Void with Madeline would've worked much better with Jocelyn. I mean even considering Madeline's responsible for breaking Lauren's mind the two characters didn't have a lot tying them together. Honestly, I can't say how that scene would have played out because I never wrote it. I was only at around the halfway point (writing wise) when I heard Dani Marco was in town. She was only in town for a short time, so I wrote the Lauren scenes in like a day so I could take advantage of her being here. That's probably why some of her last lines are a bit corny (her lines to Madeline at the end). I think I wrote those on the spot while she was in front of the microphone! quote:Also I feel like a bit of a dick of saying it with the developer in the thread, but there was one thing that really soured the ending for me. With ghost partner stories, it almost feels like a necessity for a tearful goodbye at the end, usually in the form of the ghost partner moving. I actually loved the twist on that here, with Joey unable to move on, the following uneasiness and eventually with Rosa being the one to move instead. So far so good, I was even tearing up here, but then Rosa pulled miracle revival powers out of nowhere and it just completely tore me out of the scene and I wasn't feeling the rest of the ending anymore. I knew going into this that the ending wouldn't please everyone. But really, NO ending is going to please everyone. So rather then second guess myself trying to please everyone and creating something that nobody liked (something I have done before, I am saddened to say) I just focused on making an ending that pleased ME. Hopefully that was enough. quote:Like, maybe it's just me and maybe it wasn't intended at all, but I always contrasted Joey and Madeline in my mind. On the one hand you have Joey who is everything but a professional, he gives the impression he does the whole spook-saving business because that's all he can do in unlife and he has no problem giving poo poo to his partners. On the other hand you had Madeline who was always professional and dutiful at all times, and I always felt we're supposed to take her as the dictionary definition of Spirit Guide. So when she goes serial killer and eventually planned to effectively nuke a city's population just to move on or cease to exist, the question I felt was raised was "what does this mean for Joey, in the long run?" Hell, Madeline straight up asks the same question of Joey at the end. Then to revive Joey at the end feels like invalidating all that, like he has no reason to grow from his experiences and his life with Rosa. I just feel it would've been a stronger ending to have Joey stay a spirit guide and honour his promise to Rosa. But honestly - could he keep that promise? After hundreds or thousands or even millions of years, would he still keep it together enough to avoid going full-Madeline to just end it all? If I were in that position, I'm not sure I could. Rosa knew that, which is why she did what she did. quote:I really did enjoy the game and the series though! Buying Epiphany day one was a great purchase and I'll definitely be following new releases in the future! Thanks!  -Dave
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Jul 28, 2014 19:17
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To cmndstab - thanks for rounding off this series of LPs, it's been a blast! It was certainly a bittersweet ending, with Rosa cut down just as she was coming out of her shell. I guess once she'd gained that deus ex machina power, it became inevitable, but still! I have to admit I'm sad that Joey is no longer able to interact with the spirit world, but presumably there are still Bestowers in New York city and he could always make ocntact with one of those, to pass on his knowledge (assuming he ever learns how to use social media, I guess). To Dave Gilbert - thanks for taking the time to respond to the thread! I've loved your writing through this series, and especially how you've created a cast of interesting female characters as well. Did you find it emotionally tough bringing it to an end in this way, killing off Rosa? I'd part expected a cornier, Beyond Two Souls style ending where she is cut off from the spirit world but can still contact Joey, or even Joey being brought back to life to be with her. They were only really friends/colleagues though; did you consider ever giving Rosa an actual (living) love interest within the game?
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Jul 28, 2014 19:34
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Yeah if this was a panel, or we were having lunch or something I wouldn't have been so grouse-y, it's just, you know, Internet forums and nerd complaining go hand in hand. The ending certainly was enough to keep me on board for whatever's next, like I said!
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Jul 28, 2014 19:37
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I... don't want to sound like a dick, especially with the game's creator in the trhead, but I really disliked the ending. Or at least part of it. Rosa dying, well, it's pretty heartbreaking considering how she goes from being completely shut-in to be more comfortable, only to die pretty much unmourned, save for Joey and Nishanti. What really pushes it into full dislike territory is how unpleasant Joey's life is going to be when you give it a bit of a thought, utterly alone, homeless and broke in a world he is about eighty years late. That kind of sour an otherwise pretty great serie.
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Jul 28, 2014 19:46
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Kegluneq posted:To cmndstab - thanks for rounding off this series of LPs, it's been a blast! It was certainly a bittersweet ending, with Rosa cut down just as she was coming out of her shell. I guess once she'd gained that deus ex machina power, it became inevitable, but still! I have to admit I'm sad that Joey is no longer able to interact with the spirit world, but presumably there are still Bestowers in New York city and he could always make ocntact with one of those, to pass on his knowledge (assuming he ever learns how to use social media, I guess). It's possible! quote:To Dave Gilbert - thanks for taking the time to respond to the thread! I've loved your writing through this series, and especially how you've created a cast of interesting female characters as well. Did you find it emotionally tough bringing it to an end in this way, killing off Rosa? Oh god yes. It was heartwrenching. I started making the games in 2006, but I've had them in my head since 2002 or so. So it felt very weird to let it go, and still does. But at the same time, it's nice to make a clean break and start something new. I could have dragged it out for much longer, but I would probably have gotten sick of it before the fans did. It was best to end it while I still loved it. quote:I'd part expected a cornier, Beyond Two Souls style ending where she is cut off from the spirit world but can still contact Joey, or even Joey being brought back to life to be with her. They were only really friends/colleagues though; did you consider ever giving Rosa an actual (living) love interest within the game? I haven't played Beyond Two Souls yet, so I can't comment. And as for a love interest - one of the earlier drafts of Deception had Jeremy alive instead of dead. Their backstory was still the same, so they still had a thing for each other, and my intention was to have things go in that direction. But in the end I just couldn't justify why Jeremy needed Rosa's help. It only made sense if he was dead. So I killed him. 
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Jul 28, 2014 19:56
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Iceclaw posted:What really pushes it into full dislike territory is how unpleasant Joey's life is going to be when you give it a bit of a thought, utterly alone, homeless and broke in a world he is about eighty years late. That kind of sour an otherwise pretty great serie. Not necessarily! Joey probably had the sense of mind to reach into Rosa's pocket and take out her house keys and wallet before he had her cremated. It would have been enough to give him a start.
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Jul 28, 2014 19:58
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DaveGilbert posted:Not necessarily! Joey probably had the sense of mind to reach into Rosa's pocket and take out her house keys and wallet before he had her cremated. It would have been enough to give him a start. You should do a followup lemonade-stand style game where Joey sells hot dogs and the like to finance himself and explain this away.
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Jul 28, 2014 20:00
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I disliked the energy vortex, but once getting past that and dealing with the fact that it exists, I don't mind the actual ending itself.
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Jul 28, 2014 20:00
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DaveGilbert posted:I can only assume so! Where-ever he ended up, it's gotta be better then Jersey. Booooooooo. *not a ghost
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Jul 28, 2014 20:00
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Thanks for the response! I still feel pretty sad for Rosa not having a 'full' life, but she did choose for things to go that way I guess. This is another slightly general question, but what happened to Joey after he went through the light the first time round, and how was he brought back to be a Bestower? Can people in this game universe be brought back across the void by any other means?
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Jul 28, 2014 20:13
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My biggest regret here is that Rosa never got around to passing on Lauren's "message" to Joey before she died. Like, even "Oh hey, Lauren says… eh, I'll tell you later we've gotta save the city now." It really would have driven him nuts.  By design, it's kind of a shame that there's so many interesting characters and almost all of them are dead and gone. It gives the ending a definite empty feeling, with Joey alive again but without a friend in the world. I like to think that he manages to publish Rosa's adventures or makes them into a series of indie computer games or something so she's appreciated by more than just a handful of people.
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Jul 28, 2014 20:21
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Also, here's an interesting question. Rosa's omniscience is established as not TRUE omniscience, but only omni-experience. In other words, somebody has to have thought of something before she knows about it. So who the GOODNESS figured out how to reverse an energy flow from the void back onto itself, killing the medium but saving all global spirits? I actually really like the idea that this might have happened in the past. It would totally make sense as the culmination of another bestower/guide's path. It would ALSO account for why there aren't a bunch of ancient spirits hanging around, AND could give the world some neat history! I mean, it COULD be explained as Madeline having worked out how to merge the void with the real world, tearing apart every spirit, and Rosa just guessing (or knowing, because of Madeline's understanding) that you could reverse the process? Also, wait, why couldn't Madeline have just done the reverse thing to begin with?
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Jul 28, 2014 20:23
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So are the Grace Group souls still Very Much Permanently Destroyed, or were their bits and pieces sucked into the light along with Madeline who'd absorbed them, allowing for the possibility of them experiencing the same as anyone else who goes into the light? (Seeing as that whole process is largely undefined anyway.) I suppose it's up for interpretation at this point. The safest answer would be to go with nothing more than what we've seen, which is "yep, they're gone, and it really sucked to be them".
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Jul 28, 2014 20:50
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Kegluneq posted:Thanks for the response! I still feel pretty sad for Rosa not having a 'full' life, but she did choose for things to go that way I guess. The Countess was pulled back, as was Joey. Presumably so was Madeline. And whichever spirit guide comes next! DaveGilbert fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Jul 28, 2014 |
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Jul 28, 2014 21:01
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Bacter posted:
The simple answer is that Rosa did. She said it herself: "Not even the universe knows what to do." So she had to figure it out herself.
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Jul 28, 2014 21:04
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Vil posted:So are the Grace Group souls still Very Much Permanently Destroyed, or were their bits and pieces sucked into the light along with Madeline who'd absorbed them, allowing for the possibility of them experiencing the same as anyone else who goes into the light? (Seeing as that whole process is largely undefined anyway.) Haha. Yes that goes without saying. It depends on how you think of it. If the soul is energy, and it can not be created or destroyed, then they are definitely out there somewhere.
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Jul 28, 2014 21:05
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Been following this since the beginning, and I'm just popping in now to say, "Holy poo poo". Thank you, Dave, for making this and thank you, cmndstab, for playing this. I'm just gonna go and...cry now.
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Jul 29, 2014 00:07
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When I first finished Epiphany I was rather in shock. I was annoyed that Rosa didn't have a happy ending and my first thoughts were that you killed her off just so you wouldn't be tempted to continue the series. It took a couple days of letting the ending sink in before it felt proper. Rosa and Joey broke the cycle, but Rosa also made sure she didn't just start off another one and cause more suffering through Joey. It's a very bittersweet ending, but a completely fitting one.
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Jul 29, 2014 00:21
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I think the ending was perfectly fine because any of stuff at the end to me really fit the idea of "the supernatural is vast and unknowable". The fact that there is no greater calling or divine plan when it comes to spirit guides and the afterlife fit in that too. To me Epiphany had one of the best endings in a video game period. So yeah, thanks very much to Dave for making an amazing series and thanks to cmndstab for making a great LP.
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Jul 29, 2014 00:53
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Oh man that ending. I got to buy this series now. I have two questions for Dave: Did you plan from the beginning that Rosa's teddy bear was to prepare her for Joey? And does Joey have the bear now?
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Jul 29, 2014 00:55
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Have to echo the thanks to both Dave and cmndstab, I've enjoyed both of you gentlemen's work a lot. In particular, after playing and loving the first 4 games, if this thread hadn't turned up on page 1 I would never have known about the 5th. So thanks for that. I was going to buy it, just to support Dave, and follow the story through here rather than playing it but I got too impatient so didn't do that, after all. Instead I spent about 3 hours beating my head over how to get that damned fitness ghost to go visit his sister in that graveyard. Arrgh. Great game though.
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Jul 29, 2014 00:59
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You're probably sick of answering questions by now Dave but I had one more - presumably every Bestower in the world has just lost their spirit guide. I assume pretty much all of them are going to end up with the spirit they last saved now, right?
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Jul 29, 2014 02:24
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If Joey couldn't go because he was stuck hanging around Rosa, then wouldn't all the spirit guides all be stuck hanging off of their bestowers too? It also occurs that Madeline was stuck hanging around that corpse, but moved on from the nodespace. Joey could have done the same thing if he was in there, couldn't he? Whole universe in your head and you couldn't even think of such an obvious way out for Joey, Rosa 
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Jul 29, 2014 02:50
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What are the odds of Rosa coming back as a ghost because the afterlife as a concept has filed a restraining order on her after that stunt?
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Jul 29, 2014 03:37
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I have to say, I really loved playing through all the games over a few days. Didn't even require a guide for almost all the games, almost everything really clicked for me. Count me in the camp that would love to play more Blackwell games, the only thing I'd want more than another Blackwell game is another Primordia game. 
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Jul 29, 2014 03:44
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Great LP. I'm not generally a fan of SSLPs or adventure games really, but this series was just so interesting. I have a question for DaveGilbert that isn't specifically about the story. Have you ever read the book A Dirty Job by Christopher Moore? It's also primarily about soul saving (albeit in a different form), but it has a lot of the same elements that I really liked about these games. The family theme is a big one but it also has a knack for inserting surprising humour into otherwise heartbreaking situations, which for some reason I'm a big fan of. In any case, thanks for the games and thanks for showing up to support the LP.
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Jul 29, 2014 04:17
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slowbeef posted:You should do a followup lemonade-stand style game where Joey sells hot dogs and the like to finance himself and explain this away. I'm busy imagining an extended Joey montage over a long credit scroll where Joey goes around trying to acclimate himself to the modern world. First he goes to that movie, finds it too loud and frenetically edited. Then he goes to an Apple store to get a phone, cut to him walking out empty handed looking completely bewildered. He gets and quickly drops a sales job at a Brookstone demonstrating powerful personal fans by blowing little strips of paper around. At the tail end of the credits he walks into a tailor shop where a pretty red-headed lady behind the counter admires his classic suit stylings, leading to Joey asking her for an application. Iris out. Fin.
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Jul 29, 2014 08:51
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Alopex posted:What are the odds of Rosa coming back as a ghost because the afterlife as a concept has filed a restraining order on her after that stunt? This is the only way Rosa should make cameos in future games, perfect. Well done, cmndstab and DaveGilbert! Really enjoyable stuff, and getting the creator involved always lifts a LP to another level. Many thanks to you both.
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Jul 29, 2014 11:49
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Adnor posted:Oh man that ending. I got to buy this series now. Hah. Yes, that was always the plan. In fact, one of my original ideas for the Lauren game was to have it take place during the early 80s, when Lauren was taking care of a tiny Rosa. In that game, Lauren was going to give Rosa the bear. And I suppose Joey does have the bear now! hah. That's an image I'd love to see. ATTENTION FANART ARTISTS!
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Jul 29, 2014 15:47
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FrenzyTheKillbot posted:Great LP. I'm not generally a fan of SSLPs or adventure games really, but this series was just so interesting. I haven't read it, but you're welcome!
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Jul 29, 2014 15:49
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If Rosa did get the idea from someone else, there's something a little poetic about it, actually. Somebody has to die to open the way for all the lost souls.
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Jul 31, 2014 02:23
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DaveGilbert posted:Not necessarily! Joey probably had the sense of mind to reach into Rosa's pocket and take out her house keys and wallet before he had her cremated. It would have been enough to give him a start. Lets hope for Joey's sake Jim Burdo isn't playing doorman again anytime soon. Plus I do wonder what would be going through Nishanti's head when she notices that one of the small handful of people who were also probably at Rosa's funeral, is suddenly her next door neighbor. Speaking of Rosa's funeral, while I assume Durkin would show up, I wonder, considering what was in the "word of god" in update 16, if Alex Silvia would too?
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Jul 31, 2014 20:24
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Also, I hope Dave can clarify whether Peter Fielding and Tanya/Heather recognised each other from the Grace group when Tanya took personal instruction from Peter at his gym. Like I said earlier, it seemed strange that Tanya would go to someone who might expose her past.
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Jul 31, 2014 20:36
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I was a little worried about it at first, but I like how Rosa not taking down the cult worked out. She's not a video game heroine who accomplishes everything she ever sets out to do, which has been something of a theme of the series.
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Jul 31, 2014 20:49
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DaveGilbert posted:Hah. Yes, that was always the plan. In fact, one of my original ideas for the Lauren game was to have it take place during the early 80s, when Lauren was taking care of a tiny Rosa. In that game, Lauren was going to give Rosa the bear. Hey, here's a question - does Joey know what the bear was for?
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Aug 19, 2014 22:21
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Thanks, cmndstab - fantastic LP, for a fantastic series. I bought the first four games thanks to this LP, although I quickly remembered I'm very bad at adventure games, even though I really like them. I was late to the last game because I kept thinking I'd pick up the others. Thanks to DaveGilbert for creating such compelling characters and universe. And for having the guts to stick to your guns on the ending. That felt like the *right* ending, even as I cried. I liked the psychic vampire threat, although I also play World of Darkness games, and as somebody upstream pointed out, that might be why the psychic vampire idea worked for me. I had mixed feelings on Madeline and the Countess, but I have to say, I liked the twist. We'd seen so much of Madeline, she had to be more important. And this was a classic "Bring them to me so I can help protect them - oh, thanks, I needed them all in one place" bit of nastiness. It was hard to blame her. Until she tried to take out everything in a 10 mile radius while in Manhattan. That wasn't okay. The flashbacks really contrasted a number of things, but what stood out for me was how much Madeline was calling the shots. Jocelyn was just there to be the conduit, to the point where I can really see how she'd resent this whole thing; she can't even take ownership of what she's doing. With Rosa and Joey, most of the time it took both of them to successfully send a ghost on into the light. Rosa really did feel like she was on the verge of transcending, as she climbed back into the waking world. I do like how it was handled, and Joey living again, while not easy at all, breaks the cycle of the ghost staying on and on for ages. And while the cycle will probably build up later, Rosa did a great thing by breaking it for now. Thanks once again, to both cmndstab and DaveGilbert. I look forward to your next works.
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Aug 21, 2014 07:06
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slowbeef posted:You should do a followup lemonade-stand style game where Joey sells hot dogs and the like to finance himself and explain this away. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cart_Life?
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