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Still doing phd then off for a new job so an a/t would be too much. But I'll maybe do a post or two? Only know the early stuff.
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Oct 6, 2013 21:36
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Just because Ghana was never relevant on the world stage in reality doesn't mean Grey can't make them relevant; he has several centuries to get Ghana into shape and if he can manage to secure the majority of Africa he'll actually be in a pretty good position. I'd also like to hear about some African history; out of all the major continents the history of Africa seems to get glossed over the most and I know very little about what the hell was going on down there during the middle ages.
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Oct 7, 2013 04:39
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Neruz posted:Just because Ghana was never relevant on the world stage in reality doesn't mean Grey can't make them relevant; he has several centuries to get Ghana into shape and if he can manage to secure the majority of Africa he'll actually be in a pretty good position. At the moment (and for the next few hundred years) Ghana was actually pretty relevant. However, our start date is towards the origin of the kingdom and before its conversion to Islam, which put it into much easier contact with the broader Muslim world. Ghana pioneered the "we're sitting on mountains of gold and foreigners will trade absurd amounts of actually useful stuff for this shiny metal" system that its successors Mali and Songhai honed to perfection in the late Medieval/Renaissance age. I look forward to lenoon giving us some specifics.
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Oct 7, 2013 04:49
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lenoon posted:Happily! Is that alright Grey? Go for it! Historaclize away!
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Oct 7, 2013 05:23
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Patter Song posted:Ghana pioneered the "we're sitting on mountains of gold and foreigners will trade absurd amounts of actually useful stuff for this shiny metal" system that its successors Mali and Songhai honed to perfection in the late Medieval/Renaissance age. Sadly this type of trade turned into "Sitting on mountains of gold and getting conquered by foreigners who will wage absurd amounts of war to get it".
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Oct 7, 2013 12:27
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Patter Song posted:At the moment (and for the next few hundred years) Ghana was actually pretty relevant. However, our start date is towards the origin of the kingdom and before its conversion to Islam, which put it into much easier contact with the broader Muslim world. This makes me hopeful. Are things like population, CK2/EU4 base tax and Victoria 2 resources/RGOs malleable enough that we can turn West Africa into a rich and technologically relevant nation all from within the game, or would Grey have to resort to authorial fiat at certain points?
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Oct 7, 2013 12:50
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nimby posted:Sadly this type of trade turned into "Sitting on mountains of gold and getting conquered by foreigners who will wage absurd amounts of war to get it". True but Grey has the benefit of not being a middle-ages african tribal leader or whatever the hell they had at that point in time so he can turn that into 'trading mountains of gold for fancy foreigner weapons so
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Oct 7, 2013 12:54
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My favourite story about Africa was that of Mansu Musa's pilgrimage to Mecca and the subsiquent effects of gold inflation in Europe, if anything about Africa is going to be told, please let it be that hilarious one!
A Tartan Tory fucked around with this message at 13:34 on Oct 7, 2013 |
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Oct 7, 2013 13:18
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A Tartan Tory posted:My favourite story about Africa was that of Mansu Musa's pilgrimage to Mecca and the subsiquent effects of gold inflation in Europe, if anything about Africa is going to be told, please let it be that hilarious one! We'll get to him I'm sure - right now the big issue is "where the rulers of the Ghana Empire sub saharan african, berber or ...?"
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Oct 7, 2013 13:38
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lenoon posted:We'll get to him I'm sure - right now the big issue is "where the rulers of the Ghana Empire sub saharan african, berber or ...?" Based on what I can find with a google search I'd guess sub saharan african; a 9th century berber historian described Ghana as one of the three most organized states in the region, also apparently the term 'Ghana' was actually the title applied to the leader of the nation and it was misapplied by the Arabs who kept records and thus ended up being the name of the nation and the capital as well as the leader. Apparently the Ghanese rulers were renowned for their opulence, warrior and hunting skills and as masters of trade in gold. There were apparently also some western Sudanic rulers later until Ghana was conquered by various neighbours in the 11th century, but I'm not entirely sure who the Sudanics are.
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Oct 7, 2013 13:49
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Under what circumstances would we start EU4 as westernized? Is it based on culture, religion, or location?
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Oct 7, 2013 13:53
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Mr. Safe posted:Under what circumstances would we start EU4 as westernized? I think it's more of a question which European nations will start as Africanized. 
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Oct 7, 2013 14:03
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Neruz posted:Yep Totally - there's an interesting bit of historiography coming from later Islamic scholars where it was held that the rulers of Ghana (and later Mali) couldn't possibly, at all, really, be Africans. But, rather obviously, they were. Just putting the finishing touches to a post about the origins of the Ghana empire (well, the pre-pre-origins) now.
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Oct 7, 2013 14:17
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Comrade Koba posted:I think it's more of a question which European nations will start as Africanized. It would be funny if our big invasion started in Wales, although it wouldn't make much sense to me unless we didn't see the Strait of Gibraltar while sailing.
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Oct 7, 2013 14:36
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Espy posted:It would be funny if our big invasion started in Wales, although it wouldn't make much sense to me unless we didn't see the Strait of Gibraltar while sailing. God only knows how you could miss the entire Strait of Gibraltar. Then again this is the man who accidentally blew up a planet with a literal forgotten superweapon so if anyone could do it...
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Oct 7, 2013 14:43
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Neruz posted:God only knows how you could miss the entire Strait of Gibraltar. I'm assuming that Ghana when it establishes a Navy will thus explore on the coastline and not sail flat out into open water.
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Oct 7, 2013 14:46
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Espy posted:I'm assuming that Ghana when it establishes a Navy will thus explore on the coastline and not sail flat out into open water. Yes I am assuming the Ghanese captains are not utterly insane and totally incompetant. Which might not be a viable assumption in this game actually...
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Oct 7, 2013 14:49
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Espy posted:I'm assuming that Ghana when it establishes a Navy will thus explore on the coastline and not sail flat out into open water. Neruz posted:Yes I am assuming the Ghanese captains are not utterly insane and totally incompetant. Actually... Mansa Musa posted:The ruler who preceded me did not believe that it was impossible to reach the extremity of the ocean that encircles the earth (the Atlantic Ocean). He wanted to reach that (end) and was determined to pursue his plan. So he equipped two hundred boats full of men, and many others full of gold, water and provisions sufficient for several years. He ordered the captain not to return until they had reached the other end of the ocean, or until he had exhausted the provisions and water. So they set out on their journey. They were absent for a long period, and, at last just one boat returned. When questioned the captain replied: 'O Prince, we navigated for a long period, until we saw in the midst of the ocean a great river which flowing massively. My boat was the last one; others were ahead of me, and they were drowned in the great whirlpool and never came out again. I sailed back to escape this current.' But the Sultan would not believe him. He ordered two thousand boats to be equipped for him and his men, and one thousand more for water and provisions. Then he conferred the regency on me for the term of his absence, and departed with his men, never to return nor to give a sign of life.
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Oct 7, 2013 15:01
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YF-23 posted:Actually... Is that a poetic way of Mansa Musa to say he killed the guy before him and hid the body really well? Cause it seems hard to believe someone would just send out 200 boats and then 2000 when the first 200 didn't return.
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Oct 7, 2013 15:05
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nimby posted:Is that a poetic way of Mansa Musa to say he killed the guy before him and hid the body really well? Probably...
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Oct 7, 2013 15:11
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Man our colonization period of the New World is going to own when we slip and crash into Brazil.
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Oct 7, 2013 15:13
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Espy posted:Man our colonization period of the New World is going to own when we slip and crash into Brazil. ...and then do the slavery business the other way around when we start enslaving the Americans and shipping them to Africa and Europe.
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Oct 7, 2013 15:24
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markus_cz posted:...and then do the slavery business the other way around when we start enslaving the Americans and shipping them to Africa and Europe. If we want to do real reverse slavery, we'd have to colonize Wales and the rest of Britain and ship the Europeans over.
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Oct 7, 2013 15:27
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markus_cz posted:...and then do the slavery business the other way around when we start enslaving the Americans and shipping them to Africa and Europe. Small pox would kill them off like in the original timeline.
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Oct 7, 2013 15:28
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markus_cz posted:...and then do the slavery business the other way around when we start enslaving the Americans and shipping them to Africa and Europe. That's not likely to work very well.  One of the major reasons European colonial powers sought slave labor from Africa was because Native American slaves kept dying from Old World diseases.
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Oct 7, 2013 15:28
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Espy posted:Small pox would kill them off like in the original timeline. Would Ghanese sailors carry smallpox? According to wikipedia smallpox from the Portugese decimated inner-African populations in the 16th century and while smallpox was definitely known in Africa it doesn't seem to have been anything like as common as it was in eurasia at the time. Which assumes these games actually model the whole smallpox obliterating the native americans thing; do they?
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Oct 7, 2013 15:38
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If they don't, we'll have to do it manually. For the sake of realism.
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Oct 7, 2013 15:57
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nimby posted:Is that a poetic way of Mansa Musa to say he killed the guy before him and hid the body really well? It isn't the only mention of a Malian fleet getting lost, and few historians have tried to reconstruct what they argue could have been an accidental journey to America: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1068950.stm It certainly is interesting fodder for alternate history scenarios.
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Oct 7, 2013 16:13
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History post one: Origins (note: this is a whistle stop tour of the Ghana Empire from about 40,000 BC to 800 AD. Everything after this is all on Grey edit: another note; this is not accurate and certainly not comprehensive. It's not my field and is based on a lot of idle reading, not a deep knowledge of the subject) The fringes of the Sahara are very possibly the last place in Africa to be colonized by members of our species and the when and where of humans arriving there is uncertain. In this respect, the area that would one day become the Ghana Empire, then the Empire of Mali and eventually Mauritania and Mali, is even more uncertain, a "missing spot" in Palaeolithic archaeology. Because of that, while I'd love to talk about the really really interesting bit of history (ie 7-1 million years ago), I'll start a bit later than I ordinarily would. Separating out the history and myth of origin stories is difficult at the best of times, and 500-900AD in the Sahel is neither the best of times or places. We can start with what we're fairly certain of - the Soninke people. The Soninke are currently a group of sedentary traders and marginal farmers living in Senegal, Mali and Mauritania, with an increasingly large migrant population in Paris. Back in the early 9th century AD, they were the founding tribe of a powerful African trading empire. But, that's where Grey's starting - so we can move back a little further. Myth The founding of the Ghana Empire (Wagadu, from Town of the Wagu) has an oral history tradition known alternately as the Legend of Wagadu or the Legend of Djabe Cisse. My rather shoddy understanding of it comes from translating old french ethnographies for fun a few years ago (thank God I found my fiancee, that's all I'm going to say about that). It's a pretty wonderful origin myth that's both similar to common pan-Eurasian themes and has a special north african flavour of its own. As far as my old surviving notes say, it goes something like this: Dinga Kore was dying. He had traveled from India to Mecca and from Mecca to Ethiopia looking for a place for his sons and people to make their own. He worshipped his God, Allah, well, but his people would not. On his death bed he called a vulture and a hyena to him saying "carry the word to my son, guide him to a place for my people to find water and gold". The vulture waited until Dinga had died, and flew to find his son, Djabe. "Oh mighty Djabe warrior! I bring your father's wish - travel west to the well at Kumbi, it will bring you water and much gold to rain down on the Sonnike. But first you must sacrifice 50 cows, one a day until we have eaten and rested and we will guide you" So Djabe led his people further to the west after days of sacrifice. They arrive at Kumbi to find a dread monster inside the well. It has a long black snake body and the crest of a chicken on it's head (Lenoon: why does every monster always have a chicken crest? I swear it's in everything, from Arthur to the Turkana). The snake shouted: "I will let you use this well for sacrifice: 100 cows, 100 horses and 100 girls a year" Djabe, being shrewd, said "but that will be the ruin of our people, and then how will you get such a sacrifice?" the Snake disagreed, but after much bargaining said "I will agree to one snake and one cow a year provided they are the highest quality". So it was done. For many years the most beautiful girl and the fattest cow were sent to the snake, who would wrap around them and take them down into his well. The land was good to Wagadu and the earth was bountiful with gold and with rain. But then one year Mahamadu the (Lenoon: i think it's supposed to be "the intractable"? but I'm not sure) cut the head from the snake, who made a dying prophecy: Seven stars, fire stars, seven famines, terrible famines seven rainy seasons, great rainy seasons and no rain will fall in Wagadu, and no gold will be found" The History The story above is interesting in a couple of ways - were the kings of Wagadu from India and Mecca? Were they muslim first and then went back to tribal religions? Why was this guy supposedly in Mecca and a Muslim when the kingdom was possibly founded in about 400AD? According to many scholars, the oral histories of Western Africa have become inextricably linked to a couple of great migration events - the Tuareg/Berber expansion and, later, the Islamic conquests. Both of these have a strong East-West component and both have likely been incorporated into preceding oral traditions either deliberately or simply over time. The above story was recorded in the 19th century, after a good 1200 years of contact with arabic traders, slavers and rulers and about 200 years of straight-up conquest by north african arabic nations. The traditional religions of the people of the area were slowly replaced by North African Islam and the "actual" history (what is "Actual" history anyway?) of the area has virtually been lost. We can see this strong mix of themes in the story above - an expansion of a group from Eastern Africa and Arabia, a loss of Islam and a replacement of it by a more animistic religion involving human sacrifice and, to top it off, a man literally killing the old religion who just so happens to be called "Mahamad". Watch out for the Almoravid, Grey! So who did found the Ghana Empire? Oral tradition says the Soninke, the archaeology says "someone", the Arab historians say "the Arabs, of course" and the genetic evidence says "sorry guys, there's too much migration to get a good handle on it". So let's go with the Soninke. It's somewhat difficult to support a hypothesis that puts their origin even as far east as the Sudan, and nigh-on-impossible to put that further into what is now Saudi Arabia and even into India. Going by the linguisitc evidence, Soninke is related to Bozo and probably (not a linguist) part of the Mande group of Sub-saharan african languages. Mande is part of the wider Bantu group of languages, but is not particuarly similar, so it is likely to have a complex liguistic history involving multiple replacement events and dispersal both pre- and post-bantu expansion. On my limited knowledge, I'll try to construct a rough linguistic history, though this is only a working hypothesis before I can go talk to some people in the office: niger-Congo languages expand from the Niger-Congo delta. Bantu expansion sweeps east - around 1,000 BC Sub-set of Niger-Congo drifts north, forming Mande clade ~800BC ish This Mande group would have both genetically and linguistically merged with the pre-existing Nilo-Saharan people (dating from the Upper Palaeolithic expansion), probably forming the Bozo and ultimately, Soninke ethno-linguistic group. Some of the ethnic tension that must have existed as far back as then is manifest in the early oral history accounts - warfare with the Fulani and the Tuareg, the notion of "coming from the east" (possibly an oral tradition spanning hundreds of thousands of years?). Nevertheless, despite the myth, we must look south, not east, for the origins of the Soninke. The Archaeology Archaeology in this time and this area often seems easier than the pre-human stuff that I study, but it's not - it's much, much harder. Archaeologists have to tread the fine line between "reality" (which we construct as much as anyone does) and the ethno-historical accounts that dominate local discourse. What we may see in Wagadu is a fairly common transition-to-statehood process. This is a little early for us, so I'll just summarize it briefly. Much of our evidence comes from small agricultural communities in 4500BC, a period of increasing desertification that pushed communities into closer and closer contact with both each other and nomadic tribes. Out of this increasing accumulation came friction over the resources used by the communities - mainly water and arable land. Over time, communities merge and grow larger, fight between each other and subjugate each other, forming towns and cities and all the rest. Eventually, there's a fairly large number of varying sized towns with a complex trade relationship between them. This is pretty much the standard hypothesis unimaginative archaeologists put forward. More interesting is the rise from loose accumulation of related towns to country and empire. Noone knows the boundaries of the Ghana Empire and, to be honest, we will never know. What we do know is how the system was organised. At the head was the "Manga" or Monarch, who was also the chief priest of the local religion (snake religion, I think). The Manga ruled over an empire made of thin threads of land over desert trade routes, initially with the Garamantes in the North East and the Niger delta area in the south. When we think of "Empire" we think of vast armies and vast amounts of land (both of which Ghana did have), but this is not the right way to think of Ghana. We also think of bottomless mines and trans-saharan trade of an incredible value, but these things came later than our start date (though were certainly beginning). Instead, think of trade centers strung out on shifting lines spanning weeks journeys both north and south through the Sahara desert. Overseen by "Tunka" governors, these centers live in a delicate balance between settled communities and nomadic traders who could one day be your best friends, and the next raid your livestock. This presents a difficult balance - Do you attempt to govern the raiders, who will then demand support against others (probably their brother's tribe over the next hill), or do you try to bargain with them to do more trade and less raid(ing)? One of the solutions to that, and one that seems to have led to the initial founding of the Manga, is to expand the territory under your control to the next village, the next trade route and the next valley. Then you have an issue with the next set of guys over the next hill - how far do you go? For the Ghana empire, the answer seems to have been to the Senegal river system in the West to the Niger river in the East. Always expanding, dealing with raiders and nomads and the encroaching desert, acting as middlemen in an increasingly lucrative trans-saharan trade in millet seeds, salt and wheat going south, slaves going north, they expanded. Until they stopped in around 700 AD and "consolidated" (for want of a better word) their boundaries to the south. Why? Gold. The Bambuk, Boure and Lobi Gold fields. At the time, the richest source of Gold on earth. The Ghana Empire was about to get big. Real big. lenoon fucked around with this message at 16:21 on Oct 7, 2013 |
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Oct 7, 2013 16:15
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lenoon posted:History post one: Origins This is incredibly awesome. Thank you.
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Oct 7, 2013 16:33
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Civilized Fishbot posted:This is incredibly awesome. Thank you. Indeed. I learned quite a bit. My thanks for the interesting history lesson.
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Oct 7, 2013 17:09
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I also love history lessons like that. Thanks for the effort.
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Oct 7, 2013 17:43
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lenoon posted:History post one: Origins This is brilliant lenoon! Really interesting, thanks for sharing that with us!
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Oct 7, 2013 18:07
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So what I'm getting from this is that at this point in history Ghana should be a pretty lucrative option for investment in gold mines. I wonder if the in-game Ghana has a lot of gold to exploit.
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Oct 7, 2013 19:01
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The caravans must have been quite efficient bulk cargo transporting system if they could transport wheat across Sahara and make a profit.Neruz posted:God only knows how you could miss the entire Strait of Gibraltar. Even if it's a longer route, it's still faster to sail from Ghana to Wales by sailing through western Atlantic, than it's to sail from Ghana to Gibraltar by following African coast. Also, West Africa is geographically best positioned country to colonialize Americas.  click for larger http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_wind Every history nerd should read wind stuff from Wikipedia. Prevailing winds have had a huge impact on history.
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Oct 7, 2013 19:07
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lenoon posted:History post one: Origins Thanks for posting this stuff. Almost two years ago I took a trip to Portland and visited Powell's Books, where I picked up (among other things) a copy of Africa: A Biography of the Continent, by John Reader. I still haven't finished it - I tend to pick it up, read a few chapters, and then do something else - but it's OK to read it like that. Anyway I got through all the pre-history stuff and last time I read any of it, a few months ago, I'd just started reading about the Sahel and the rise of pastoralism. What I'm getting to in a roundabout way is that in a discussion of the settlement of the fringes of the Sahara, it's worth noting two things: First, the modern perception of the Sahara as a vast, eternal and impenetrable desert is generally incorrect; it's vast, for sure. But it's not impenetrable, and over the last few thousand years, there have been repeated episodes of climatic change, during which there have been periods of many hundreds of years in which large areas of what are now desert were watered well enough to support non-nomadic, sedentary populations; and at other times, and into the modern day, the southern margins of the Sahara have enough rainfall and forage to support a rise of pastoralism (which coincides with the (probably imported) domestic cow as the primary or a major secondary food source for millions of Africans). So, basically, I think the discussion of the semi-fluid shifts at various times of climatic change between nomadic or semi-nomadic hunter/gathering societies, farming societies, and pastoralists, and how that happened in the Sahel in particular, is really interesting and foundational to understanding Sub-Saharan African civlization. And second, I think it's worth underlining (although you touched on it) for those that aren't aware, that African population groups as a whole have more genetic diversity than any other continent on Earth, by far. That is, there are more different lineages of humans in Africa than there are in Europe, or in Asia, or the Americas. This is only possible because there have been, historically, numerous impassible or nearly-impassible geographic boundaries which have restricted human populations from heavily intermarrying, the way they do in Europe and Asia in particular. Linguistic studies back up the genetic studies by showing that there are several distinct lineages of language groups in Africa, and the diversity between these lineages is again, far greater than between European languages, Asian languages, etc. One of those lineages is the Bantu languages, which you mentioned. I wasn't aware of that stuff about Bozo and Soninke language groups and their not being just another part of the Bantu group, so that's really interesting. Anyway I'll go ahead and recommend that book, Africa, up above. When I bought it, I was looking for a history of Africa that included the pre-colonial period. Most African histories I was finding focused on colonialism and (in particular) 18th, 19th, and 20th century history; e.g., the history of white people in Africa. This book definitely includes that stuff too (although I haven't read it yet), but the first third of the book is about pre-colonial Africa (beginning with the evolution of modern humanity), and that's what I'm really interested in learning about. It's written by a guy who is more of a journalist than a historian, and that has its drawbacks; the book is thoroughly researched and pretty much every factual statement is referenced, but as you can see from the Amazon reviews, there are plenty of points one can disagree with and I'm not sure some of Reader's conclusions jive well with the consensus view of African historians. Nonetheless, his writing style is very good (as one might expect from a journalist) and that makes it more readable, which for me is a big plus. I'm not a historian, I'm reading this stuff mostly for enjoyment, so I'm not likely to stick with a book that is too dry. Hogge Wild posted:Even if it's a longer route, it's still faster to sail from Ghana to Wales by sailing through western Atlantic, than it's to sail from Ghana to Gibraltar by following African coast. Also, West Africa is geographically best positioned country to colonialize Americas. This is only true if you have A)Ocean-going ships capable of withstanding open ocean conditions, and B)the means of navigating in the open ocean (the compass, star charts, accurate timekeeping, and a map). If you lack either or both of those things, you stick to the coast, seeking safe harbors in bad weather, because it's the only way to not get lost and the only way to not sink. Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 19:19 on Oct 7, 2013 |
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Oct 7, 2013 19:16
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Hogge Wild posted:The caravans must have been quite efficient bulk cargo transporting system if they could transport wheat across Sahara and make a profit. AAAND I just realized why the trade routes in EU4 are set up the way they are, at least the sea routes. Which means that actually unless you move your capital the Americas will be useless for us. Rumda fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Oct 7, 2013 |
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Oct 7, 2013 19:18
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Hogge Wild posted:The caravans must have been quite efficient bulk cargo transporting system They were pretty inefficient at mass cargo, so the majority was low bulk, high yield. Seeds though, seeds do the same thing - crazy high yield, when planted.... On the genetic diversity front, not only is the majority of genetic diversity within Africa, but Africa is also incredibly vast. Our projections usually show it much much smaller than it is. There's a great 'true size of Africa' image floating around somewhere, and it's insane how large the continent is. The Ghana empire was immense, really. Absolutely vast, even by CK2 blob standards. (Also, note that the Ghana we're playing has virtually no relation to Ghana the modern country!)
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Oct 7, 2013 19:29
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Rumda posted:AAAND I just realized why the trade routes in EU4 are set up the way they are, at least the sea routes. Not entirely: EU4 has a Brazil->Ivory Coast->Timbuktu route. Everything besides Brazil is worthless.
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Oct 7, 2013 19:29
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Patter Song posted:Not entirely: EU4 has a Brazil->Ivory Coast->Timbuktu route. Everything besides Brazil is worthless. well at least we'll be able to poach any east Asian trade European nations send round the cape, unless something major happens in ck2 which would require re balancing the trade system.
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Oct 7, 2013 19:34
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