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GomJabbar
Jul 25, 2013

Hey Ozma, it's Fire. Can you change my avatar back? Goons found out I'm a pedophile again. BTW Thanks for the free account. Did I mention I work with disabled kids?

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/10/...t-afford-shoes/

quote:

McDonald’s worker arrested after telling company president she can’t afford shoes

A woman who has been employed by the McDonald’s Corporation for over 10 years says she was arrested last week after she confronted the company president at a meeting and told him she couldn’t afford to buy shoes or food for her children.

Nancy Salgado, 26, told The Real News that she felt like she had to speak out during McDonald’s USA President Jeff Stratton’s speech at the Union League Club of Chicago on Friday for the sake of her children.

“It’s really hard for me to feed my two kids and struggle day to day,” she shouted as Stratton was speaking. “Do you think this is fair, that I have to be making $8.25 when I’ve worked for McDonald’s for ten years?”


“I’ve been there for forty years,” Stratton replied from the podium.

“The thing is that I need a raise. But you’re not helping your employees. How is this possible?” Salgado asked.

At that point, someone approached Salgado and informed her that she was going to be arrested.

She later recalled the encounter to The Real News’ Jessica Desvarieux.

“The strength was very powerful, like, just remembering the face of my kids, like I say, you know, just simple things like I can’t provide a pair of shoes like everybody else does, sometimes every month, or anything like that,” she said. “And he needs to know we are what all the employees at McDonald’s are going through. We’re struggling day to day to provide our needs in our houses, things for our kids. And it’s just–it gets harder and harder with just the poverty wage they have us living in.”

“They just told me, you know, well, you’re being under arrest because you just interrupted, you trespassed the property. You’re just going to go to jail,” Salgado added. “And what I remember just telling them, ‘well, like, so, because I have to speak out my mind and I had to tell the president the poverty wage I’m living in, that’s just against the law?’ You know, just be able to speak up your mind and say, you know what, I can’t survive with $8.25? It’s just — it’s ridiculous that I’m going to get arrested. You know.”


Salgado, who is still working at McDonald’s, said she had her hours cut following the arrest and feared further retaliation.

“The CEOs make millions and billions a year and why can’t they provide enough for their employees?” she wondered.

Watch this video from The Real News Network, broadcast Oct. 9, 2013.

Here is a recent news story about the controversy. To me this woman is incredibly brave to confront him about the kind of company he runs.

Yes its a left wing source but they seem to be the ones advocating for this.

There is a movement to increase the minimum wage to $15 an hour. Why $15? One its because its livable wage but also because the increases in minimum wages have been stagnant. Now, there is a case to be made that increasing the minimum wage will cause some unemployment as fast food places cut hours.

For my part, I would counter that even it is true, the employment relationship without a livable wage, where most of the workers are supporting families on an extremely low salary is an exploitative one. There is also the Card and Kruegar study that suggests that the liberal conventional wisdom is in error. http://davidcard.berkeley.edu/papers/njmin-aer.pdf

So I think that the minimum wage should be increased. There is also the related issue of fast food workers and retail workers right to organize. The decline of unions in my view is a big reason why wages have been stagnant all this time.

Do you think minimum wage should be increased and would better union representation be a net positive? Is this fast food worker right?

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titty fat pizza
Jan 1, 2013


The minimum wage will never be a living wage because that would mean rich people that already have more money than they will ever need would make less money and rich people making less money so poor people can afford to exist is the worst thing that could ever happen.

titty fat pizza fucked around with this message at Oct 10, 2013 around 11:04

Yasser Arafatwa
Jan 13, 2009

Whoever stands by a just cause cannot possibly be called a terrorist.


People without enough money to live, suddenly getting enough money to live are going to, you know, continue spending that money in order to live. It's not like giving poor folks higher wages is going to suck those dollars into a black hole; if anything you'd likely see steady rises in numerous industries as more people were capable of becoming customers. It should be common sense.

But no, let's keep the poor depressed and keep squeezing more people into lower income brackets by raising prices without adjusting pay.

Gough Suppressant
Nov 14, 2008

His Excellency the Honourable Bunyip Potentate

If you work a forty hour week you should be entitled to a living wage. As said above, if you put people on $8 an hour on $15, the vast majority of that difference is going to go straight back into consumption, increasing economic activity.

A minimum wage below the living wage is wrong by both morals and economics, but conservatives and libertarians have no concern for either.

Babylon Astronaut
Apr 19, 2012


Until poor people get serious about lobbying and making campaign contributions, I can't see any politicians being responsive to their concerns.

Berk Berkly
Apr 9, 2009


Babylon Astronaut posted:

Until poor people get serious about lobbying and making campaign contributions, I can't see any politicians being responsive to their concerns.

"Serious" means two things, either deep pockets to pay for lobbying/bribes/legal action, which by definition they don't have, even as a collective group, or violent, which the rich are aware of and prepared for.

Peanut President
Nov 5, 2008



Berk Berkly posted:

"Serious" means two things, either deep pockets to pay for lobbying/bribes/legal action, which by definition they don't have, even as a collective group, or violent, which the rich are aware of and prepared for.

Babylon Astronaut was joking.

Simoom
Nov 30, 2009


Yeah but he had a point in that poor people are hosed. I can't even imagine this happening in America in my lifetime. Even years from now when inflation has made 15 bucks worth next to nothing.

edit: to elaborate so there's a little more content, even here in Canada there just isn't that much sympathy for the poor. We want to keep them alive and off the streets so they're not panhandling outside our nearest Tim Horton's, but like. Min. wage in the province I live in has been frozen for three years, and whenever the topic comes up I am really shocked at how callous most people are about it. It just seems that in modern society there is no real desire to help these people, and that there should always be people whose entire existence is a punishment for the "choices they've made". Economically it makes sense to pay the poor more but I have no idea how to go around getting rid of that weird idea even in the people close to me, nevermind society at large. Even when I can get people to acknowledge that someone has to do these jobs, its just "Well if they don't like being paid poo poo, they should get a better job, HEH."

Simoom fucked around with this message at Oct 10, 2013 around 13:29

kiresays
Aug 14, 2012



I want an 88% raise too. I don't disagree that minimum wage is too low, but $15 is absurd. What you're all missing with the, "back into the economy" is that if you nearly double the cost of the majority of most companies labor you are going to see a significant spike in the cost of goods. Which means that $15 dollars suddenly becomes worth a lot less when the basic goods you say people can't afford now suddenly become even more expensive.

On top of that, if you think companies are exporting labor now, $15 dollars an hour? poo poo.

Orange Devil
Sep 30, 2010

Waar is da feestje?

HIER IS DA FEESTJE!



kiresays posted:

I want an 88% raise too. I don't disagree that minimum wage is too low, but $15 is absurd. What you're all missing with the, "back into the economy" is that if you nearly double the cost of the majority of most companies labor you are going to see a significant spike in the cost of goods. Which means that $15 dollars suddenly becomes worth a lot less when the basic goods you say people can't afford now suddenly become even more expensive.

On top of that, if you think companies are exporting labor now, $15 dollars an hour? poo poo.

Oh no McDonalds and Wal Mart might move to China!

BrooklynBruiser
Aug 20, 2006


kiresays posted:

I want an 88% raise too. I don't disagree that minimum wage is too low, but $15 is absurd. What you're all missing with the, "back into the economy" is that if you nearly double the cost of the majority of most companies labor you are going to see a significant spike in the cost of goods. Which means that $15 dollars suddenly becomes worth a lot less when the basic goods you say people can't afford now suddenly become even more expensive.

On top of that, if you think companies are exporting labor now, $15 dollars an hour? poo poo.

A lot of minimum wage labor is labor that can't be exported - you can't move a neighborhood McDonald's to India.

Spacedad
Sep 11, 2001

We go play orbital catch around the curvature of the earth, son.

Wages have been stagnant in the US for a long time while CEO pay has gone up enormously, so don't give me that crap about them causing inflation.

computer parts
Nov 18, 2010


Obtuse Cunt.
Please Do Not Engage.
Will bore you and everyone else with inane questions.




I like the idea Washington State has of tying minimum wage to inflation. Basically, get the federal minimum wage to its peak after inflation (which was like $10.50 in the 60s) and then have that number tied to inflation.

It's still not a *livable* wage, but you won't ever lose value due to it being a nominal number.

Bubbacub
Apr 17, 2001



I don't understand why minimum wage isn't already tied to inflation.

Quantum Mechanic
Apr 25, 2010

Just another fuckwit who thrives on fake moral outrage.
Waaaah the Christians are out to get me

lol abbottsgonnawin

Countdown until actual minimum wage discussion is ruined by the same libertarian drive-by shitposting it always is in three, two, one...

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

BrooklynBruiser
Aug 20, 2006


Bubbacub posted:

I don't understand why minimum wage isn't already tied to inflation.

Job creators gently caress the poor get a real job bootstraps

Chantilly Say
Apr 18, 2008

Coup.


kiresays posted:

I want an 88% raise too. I don't disagree that minimum wage is too low, but $15 is absurd. What you're all missing with the, "back into the economy" is that if you nearly double the cost of the majority of most companies labor you are going to see a significant spike in the cost of goods. Which means that $15 dollars suddenly becomes worth a lot less when the basic goods you say people can't afford now suddenly become even more expensive.

This actually wouldn't happen that seriously; wages are a fairly small segment of costs for these companies and the price increases wouldn't come close to matching the increase in spending money that the workers would have.

Chalets the Baka
Jan 25, 2013



Implementing a minimum wage by declaring a number is a static, temporary solution that will no longer be acceptable as inflation inevitably marches on. Any kind of declaration of a living wage must include a clause that it must rise relative to inflation. If you don't, you're going to run into a political battle every time the wage needs to be raised (and it will absolutely have to be raised). In the USA, just the idea of having a government and keeping that government running is a major political battle in itself, so good luck getting anything meaningful or positive to happen with that kind of pervasive attitude. Not to mention the fact that the US government was designed from the get-go to be slow, inefficient, and foster conflict.

If you want to see the impoverished treated fairly and live in a country that is making waves in terms of human rights, then emigrate (legally or illegally) to one of the many that has already done so. It is not going to happen in America. You will see a freep CWII and thousands of country bumpkins dumped in unmarked graves before you see the welfare of a single poor person be a main point of concern in America.

kiresays posted:

I want an 88% raise too. I don't disagree that minimum wage is too low, but $15 is absurd. What you're all missing with the, "back into the economy" is that if you nearly double the cost of the majority of most companies labor you are going to see a significant spike in the cost of goods. Which means that $15 dollars suddenly becomes worth a lot less when the basic goods you say people can't afford now suddenly become even more expensive.

On top of that, if you think companies are exporting labor now, $15 dollars an hour? poo poo.

Looks like someone just walked out of their freshman economics class with a renewed sense of social justice. Hey buddy, newsflash: even if the minimum wage were raised to $15 an hour, it would still be less money relative to inflation than the minimum wage was back in the 60's. I'd like you to define "significant spike". What evidence do you have that an increase in minimum wage to $15 (which is still not enough money) would increase costs so much that the benefits of that minimum wage increase are diminished or negated? I'll give you a hint: the evidence doesn't exist.

Mans
Sep 14, 2011

We have the dimension of an empire.


kiresays posted:

I want an 88% raise too. I don't disagree that minimum wage is too low, but $15 is absurd. What you're all missing with the, "back into the economy" is that if you nearly double the cost of the majority of most companies labor you are going to see a significant spike in the cost of goods. Which means that $15 dollars suddenly becomes worth a lot less when the basic goods you say people can't afford now suddenly become even more expensive.

On top of that, if you think companies are exporting labor now, $15 dollars an hour? poo poo.

It's cute when people think business is entirely composed of cooperatives.

kiresays
Aug 14, 2012



I completely agree that their relative purchasing power would increase. I don't think the benefits would be diminished. I was just pointing out that it's not *really* a 80% raise (which I now know you're all perfectly aware of). And yes, jobs at places that can't be exported (wal-mart, mcdonalds etc.) obviously won't be lost. So those people will keep their jobs (with manipulated hours) at the cost of every other job that CAN be exported.

computer parts
Nov 18, 2010


Obtuse Cunt.
Please Do Not Engage.
Will bore you and everyone else with inane questions.




For those wondering, here's the inflation adjusted graph of the minimum wage since its peak in 1968 -



kiresays posted:

I completely agree that their relative purchasing power would increase. I don't think the benefits would be diminished. I was just pointing out that it's not *really* a 80% raise (which I now know you're all perfectly aware of). And yes, jobs at places that can't be exported (wal-mart, mcdonalds etc.) obviously won't be lost. So those people will keep their jobs (with manipulated hours) at the cost of every other job that CAN be exported.

which jobs are you thinking of that pay minimum wage (or let's be generous - anywhere between the current minimum wage and $15/hour) and are able to be outsourced that aren't already?

computer parts fucked around with this message at Oct 10, 2013 around 14:42

Amused to Death
Aug 10, 2009

google "The Night Witches", and prepare for

Not directly related to the miniumum wage in America, but something to keep watch of for the future, Switzerland is holding a referendum on whether or not to provide a monthly minimum income of 2,500 francs($2,800) to every citizen.

For what wiki is worth, it says that is about 1/2 the average net monthly wage in Switzerland.

Job Creator
Apr 3, 2009



kiresays posted:

I completely agree that their relative purchasing power would increase. I don't think the benefits would be diminished. I was just pointing out that it's not *really* a 80% raise (which I now know you're all perfectly aware of). And yes, jobs at places that can't be exported (wal-mart, mcdonalds etc.) obviously won't be lost. So those people will keep their jobs (with manipulated hours) at the cost of every other job that CAN be exported.

This ties in with the idea that the job creators provide us peons employment out of the goodness of their hearts, and not to run their respective enterprises. Walmart, Target, etc aren't hiring more bodies than they need to run their retail stores. An overnight hike of the minimum wage to $15 would likely cause some short-term problems, but I don't see any good arguments against raising it to $10 over the course of the next two years.

I remember reading that a lot of the new jobs created post-2008 have been minimum wage service jobs, while the wages in other sectors have trended downwards as well. It's a race to the bottom for 90% of Americans and creates more unemployment/underemployment as people need to work multiple jobs just to survive.

Thundercracker
Jun 25, 2004

Proudly serving the Ruinous Powers since as a veteran of the long war.


BrooklynBruiser posted:

A lot of minimum wage labor is labor that can't be exported - you can't move a neighborhood McDonald's to India.

Yes, but offshoring is essentially the precursor to automation. In this scenario, the next logical step would be replacing the fast food workers with automatons... which is already being tested as we speak (from grill to cashier). A $15 minimum wage would simply have McDonald’s put more resources into that process and rolling it out quicker.

Typical Pubbie
May 10, 2011


Thundercracker posted:

Yes, but offshoring is essentially the precursor to automation. In this scenario, the next logical step would be replacing the fast food workers with automatons... which is already being tested as we speak (from grill to cashier). A $15 minimum wage would simply have McDonald’s put more resources into that process and rolling it out quicker.

They will roll out automation as quickly as possible no matter what the minimum wage is. Eventually the MW will be made redundant by automation, so we might as well get the most out of it.

BottledBodhisvata
Jul 26, 2013

A Fool Who Persists In His Folly


You'll find plenty of people who will talk poo poo on ole Henry Ford for being one of the first big business industry people and being a greedy bastard who took credit for employee inventions...but there's one thing he believed that, as the de facto father of American industry, should really have been a lesson everyone took.

He believed in paying his workers well--really well. Why? Because, he realized that, as he's making all of these cars, he won't make any money off them if nobody can afford to purchase them! So he considered it a good investment and good for business to pay his workers well enough to buy his cars and make a real living.

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


Thundercracker posted:

Yes, but offshoring is essentially the precursor to automation. In this scenario, the next logical step would be replacing the fast food workers with automatons... which is already being tested as we speak (from grill to cashier). A $15 minimum wage would simply have McDonald’s put more resources into that process and rolling it out quicker.

It's going to happen anyway regardless of how many resources McDonald's puts into it (so why not help people make a living wage now and deal with the problem upfront), and there's still a ton of jobs in this country that are non-retail, non-automatable, non-offshoreable and make minimum wage or close to it. It would help all those people too.

Plus, I don't know if you're aware of this, but there's a lot of jobs requiring a college degree that hire for 15 bucks an hour in this lovely economy. Minimum wage hikes would also help new college graduates earn more.

Or we can just leave the minimum wage the way it is because those poor companies who are making record profits and paying their executives seven lifetimes worth of salary for one year of work might have to cut their compensation a bit or the rest of us might have to pay 5% more to cover the cost of someone's dignity. I don't really like that idea though.

computer parts
Nov 18, 2010


Obtuse Cunt.
Please Do Not Engage.
Will bore you and everyone else with inane questions.




Thundercracker posted:

Yes, but offshoring is essentially the precursor to automation. In this scenario, the next logical step would be replacing the fast food workers with automatons... which is already being tested as we speak (from grill to cashier). A $15 minimum wage would simply have McDonald’s put more resources into that process and rolling it out quicker.

I'm honestly surprised that fast food restaurants haven't embraced automation for their cashiers at least, it's a brain dead idea. That being said, there are still a multitude of jobs which require some level of thinking or at least moving that automation can't reliably do (again, the Wal-Mart workers are the perfect example).


BottledBodhisvata posted:

You'll find plenty of people who will talk poo poo on ole Henry Ford for being one of the first big business industry people and being a greedy bastard who took credit for employee inventions.

And being admired by Hitler but that's getting off topic.

Sephiroth_IRA
Mar 31, 2010


I support an increase to the minimum wage mainly because it just seems like the right thing to do but from a purely "What's in it for me?" perspective I also support it. I currently earn $15 bucks an hour so if the minimum wage were to be raised that would mean my employer would have to compete with that and raise my wage as well and trust me they can afford it.

Would employers fire workers? Probably but not as many as some people think. I really can't fathom why an employer would hire more people than they really need. Every time I walk into a Subway or an Aldi there's either just enough people there to do things or they actually seem understaffed.

Would prices go up? Probably but I really don't see how they would increase by a 1:1 ratio, especially for the bigger companies which hire most of our workforce anyway. Not to mention many of these places would see increased shopping/spending due to the increased wages so they wouldn't raise as much as some people think. Another thing to remember is that consumer debt wouldn't be affected by a wage increase at all so people would have more money to pay the big costs in life, like the mortgage, cc bills, car payments, etc. So no matter what even if prices did increase to match the wage increase people would be better off.

Another benefit to the economy would be increased risk taking. There's a lot of people out there that would love to start a business but they can't because if they were to fail there's a good chance they would end up completely screwed. If people knew that they wouldn't end up in poverty if their business venture failed then they would be more willing to take risk.

edit:
I still think that along with a wage increase we could make life cheaper for people. Single payer healthcare, more infrastructure/public transportation/affordable housing, etc.

Sephiroth_IRA fucked around with this message at Oct 10, 2013 around 15:41

QUILT_MONSTER_420
Aug 22, 2013


N/M mistake

QUILT_MONSTER_420 fucked around with this message at Oct 10, 2013 around 16:10

Main Paineframe
Oct 27, 2010
LIKES: GUMMI BEARS

DISLIKES: JEWS, BLACKS, GAYS, HISPANICS, GYPSIES, ABORIGINES


Bubbacub posted:

I don't understand why minimum wage isn't already tied to inflation.

Well, what inflation measure would we use? The CPI excludes food, housing, and energy prices because those prices are too volatile and influenced by other things besides inflation. However, food, housing, and energy prices are all pretty important to poor people and rising at well above nominal inflation. I'm not sure measuring minimum wage against CPI really tells the full story if it doesn't include at least food prices.

computer parts posted:

I'm honestly surprised that fast food restaurants haven't embraced automation for their cashiers at least, it's a brain dead idea. That being said, there are still a multitude of jobs which require some level of thinking or at least moving that automation can't reliably do (again, the Wal-Mart workers are the perfect example).

I don't think fast food is ever going to be completely automated, at least in the foreseeable future. There's just too much value in having a human face there that customers can scream at, ask questions, or give weird-rear end wacky requests to. Some fast food places are already automating the ordering process with things like online ordering or touchscreen kiosks with credit card readers, though.

Countblanc
Apr 20, 2005

mumblecrew

BottledBodhisvata posted:

You'll find plenty of people who will talk poo poo on ole Henry Ford for being one of the first big business industry people and being a greedy bastard who took credit for employee inventions...but there's one thing he believed that, as the de facto father of American industry, should really have been a lesson everyone took.

He believed in paying his workers well--really well. Why? Because, he realized that, as he's making all of these cars, he won't make any money off them if nobody can afford to purchase them! So he considered it a good investment and good for business to pay his workers well enough to buy his cars and make a real living.

He believed in paying his workers well if they literally passed tests that involved him sending goons into their homes to make sure they were living in a way that most closely approximated bourgeoisie culture. It wasn't a financial or economic decision (at least, not entirely) to pay his crew well, it was a cultural one rooted in top down Americanization.

Ytlaya
Nov 13, 2005


Yasser Arafatwa posted:

People without enough money to live, suddenly getting enough money to live are going to, you know, continue spending that money in order to live. It's not like giving poor folks higher wages is going to suck those dollars into a black hole; if anything you'd likely see steady rises in numerous industries as more people were capable of becoming customers. It should be common sense.

But no, let's keep the poor depressed and keep squeezing more people into lower income brackets by raising prices without adjusting pay.

This being said, the narrative that says the rich will actually be better off if the poor/middle class are also better off doesn't seem to be supported by history. The rich have been far better off in recent years than they were back during, say, the 1950's. They actually do benefit more from the poor not being paid a living wage.

(Not that this really matters, and if trying to convince the rich that they'll be better off with higher taxes and more robust social welfare actually accomplishes something then by all means go ahead and do so. Though I'm of the opinion that more people need to explicitly treat the rich as enemies* of the working class. Unless you're an actual threat to the wealthy, they aren't going to give you anything. The only reason the New Deal (and other legislation benefiting the working class) passed was because wealthy capitalists were nervous about the results of leftist movements elsewhere in the world. A "moderate" approach doesn't get actual results.)

*And when I say "enemies," I mean it in the most literal sense. The policies pushed by wealthy individuals and organizations directly result in countless deaths and immeasurable suffering. I do not see a difference between pushing policy that results in this sort of thing and personally walking around killing and stealing from people. If anything, the former can cause far more harm than any individual doing the latter could ever hope to cause.


vvv Then they should go out of business. Australia didn't collapse as a result of having a far higher minimum wage than the US. Something along the lines of the minimum wage increase mentioned in the OP is a comparatively minor measure.

Ytlaya fucked around with this message at Oct 10, 2013 around 16:30

JohnGalt
Aug 7, 2012


I won't get into the larger picture of the overall economy and the effect of minimum wage, but in the case of fast food restaurants such as MacDs even nominal increases in minimum wage would be difficult. The average pre-tax margin per year on a franchise is around $125,000. There are 8760 hours in a year and let us assume that there are 10 employees on any given hour (no idea, ive never had the pleasure of working in a MacDs) which means that the employer of that franchise must pay for approximately 87600 work hours per year. A wage increase of $7.50/hr would be $657,000/year, impossible to be absorbed by the franchise owner. Even a dollar per hour increase is over 70% of the pre-tax margin the owner receives.

It is possible to have some of those wages come out of franchise costs. With 34,734 stores worldwide total absorption of cost would be 22 billion dollars per year or more than twice the gross income of the corporation.

I don't know what other fast food places operate as far as margins go, however I cannot imagine that they are that much different. Any low margin business would not be able to bear the kind of wage increases people want.

Popular Thug Drink
Apr 25, 2013

PROUD SURVIVOR OF WINTER STORM SHERMAN.

JANUARY 28 2014 NEVER FORGET


computer parts posted:

I'm honestly surprised that fast food restaurants haven't embraced automation for their cashiers at least, it's a brain dead idea. That being said, there are still a multitude of jobs which require some level of thinking or at least moving that automation can't reliably do (again, the Wal-Mart workers are the perfect example).

Two reasons. First is why bother when you have a limitless supply of labor who will work at practically any wage? Second is that being able to yell and scream at a human being who has to grin and bear it is an essential part of foodservice. Not even kidding.

Once I had a lady who 'found' a quarter in her salad and marched into the office to unload on the manager. Yeah gee whiz lady I'm so sorry I didn't see the big gnarly coin in the tiny assed little salad I made by hand. Around here we can't stop ourselves from dumping spare change in the lettuce bins. No way did you plant it in your own food to have an excuse to scream at people I've never worked fast food, only fine dining, so I can only imagine the poo poo your average burger flipper has to deal with.

Popular Thug Drink fucked around with this message at Oct 10, 2013 around 16:37

rscott
Dec 10, 2009


Your labor estimates are completely off, probably by at least 100% if not more. There is no McDonalds on earth that is employing the equivalent of over 40 full time employees and making a margin of $125k a year.

Coriolis
Oct 22, 2005



BottledBodhisvata posted:

You'll find plenty of people who will talk poo poo on ole Henry Ford for being one of the first big business industry people and being a greedy bastard who took credit for employee inventions...but there's one thing he believed that, as the de facto father of American industry, should really have been a lesson everyone took.

He believed in paying his workers well--really well. Why? Because, he realized that, as he's making all of these cars, he won't make any money off them if nobody can afford to purchase them! So he considered it a good investment and good for business to pay his workers well enough to buy his cars and make a real living.

This is one of those "just so" stories of capitalism that happens to be completely false.

Henry Ford didn't pay his workers more because he wanted their business, he paid them more because the work was backbreaking and monotonous which created a turnover rate somewhere around 350%. He paid them more because he had to, not out of economic principles or the goodness of his heart.

http://corporate.ford.com/news-cent...-5-dollar-a-day

Ford's own website posted:

While Henry's primary objective was to reduce worker attrition—labor turnover from monotonous assembly line work was high—newspapers from all over the world reported the story as an extraordinary gesture of goodwill.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timwors...what-you-think/

Forbes magazine posted:

At the time, workers could count on about $2.25 per day, for which they worked nine-hour shifts. It was pretty good money in those days, but the toll was too much for many to bear. Ford’s turnover rate was very high. In 1913, Ford hired more than 52,000 men to keep a workforce of only 14,000. New workers required a costly break-in period, making matters worse for the company. Also, some men simply walked away from the line to quit and look for a job elsewhere. Then the line stopped and production of cars halted. The increased cost and delayed production kept Ford from selling his cars at the low price he wanted. Drastic measures were necessary if he was to keep up this production.

Nevvy Z
Jan 3, 2004

This is a pretty dumb contest.

Ytlaya posted:

This being said, the narrative that says the rich will actually be better off if the poor/middle class are also better off doesn't seem to be supported by history. The rich have been far better off in recent years than they were back during, say, the 1950's. They actually do benefit more from the poor not being paid a living wage.

Arguably they are no better off. Marginal utility is a bitch once you can literally buy anything.

this_is_hard
Sep 30, 2012


rscott posted:

Your labor estimates are completely off, probably by at least 100% if not more. There is no McDonalds on earth that is employing the equivalent of over 40 full time employees and making a margin of $125k a year.

This is totally anecdotal, but when I was a high school senior I worked at a brand new McDonalds in a mid sized city in Virginia that made over $1,000,000 in profit for our first year. I was making $6.55/hr and when the minimum wage was raised nationally to $7.50 an hour they suspended all raises for non-management for the next two years, despite having promised all of us when we were hired that we would be given raises every year.

Also anecdotal, but I was 'offered' a promotion to being 3rd shift management for a grand total of a $1/hr raise (to $8.50/hr) and when I declined (I was in college at this point, so clearly I didn't want to work from like 11pm-7am) they responded by cutting my hours to 3 hours total a week, a sunday shift from 11am-2pm.

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Nevvy Z
Jan 3, 2004

This is a pretty dumb contest.

Hey buddy, if you don't like it you have every right not to do it!

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