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bewbies posted:Just saw that Mcshay now has Mariota ahead of Bridgewater at the #2 spot. Interesting... If you think that's interesting Bucky Brooks has Mariota at #1 then Manziel, Winston, Bridgewater, and Carr in that order. Winston is a redshirt Freshman, which confuses me. Anyway, Mariota has the NFL arm and build, he just has crappy footwork that's going to lead to a lot of off-kilter passes. I don't think he's even seen pressure this year outside of the California game. I'd like to see him play UCLA first and Stanford first before I even put him above Hundley.
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Oct 24, 2013 15:20
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wandler20 posted:Do you guys think Mariota, Hundley, and Manziel will all come out this year? They are all RS-Soph. I can't even think of the last top QB prospect that was a RS-Soph to come out. No. Never happens. Players go back all the time and most of the time it's beyond frustrating. Luck was the most inexplicable one of recent memory, but Locker was right behind him too. Players need to stop being afraid of not being picked first overall or slipping to the second.
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Oct 24, 2013 15:48
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Boosh! posted:I'm 100% down with Clown but barring that, this dude seems ideal at the other tackle spot: I disagree with Bewbie's assessment on Koundjio. I see him as more of a guard and I don't see any capability as a pass blocker. He seems like a pulling RG or an Iupati type if he were to go to the left side. I'd rather have Matthews.
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Oct 24, 2013 16:11
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MourningBoo posted:Manziel is so banged up right now that he is currently trying (and allegedly succeeding) to teach himself to throw left handed. If he comes back for another year he may die. Which will most likely happen in the NFL anyway. My biggest concern for Manziel is his head isn't on a swivel when he runs, and he narrowly misses massive hits by a hair's breadth. That's not going to happen in the NFL, defenders are so much faster. jeffersonlives posted:Manziel has certainly indicated in both behavior and words that he will, but things can change and you're right in that it's unusual that all of the talked about underclassman actually do declare in any given. Probably worth noting that Bridgewater as a true junior is no more of a lock than these three to declare either. That's what ticks me off about this years draft. It looks extremely deep but guys like Bridgewater can easily go back if they get ruminations that Mariota might go ahead of them.
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Oct 24, 2013 16:29
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MourningBoo posted:Yeah but at least he'd be paid for it. Paid more for it. Ozu posted:Manziel is almost certain losing Mike Evans so that probably increasing his likelihood of declaring. Evans is gonna be a unique prospect because I feel like half of his catches come from grabbing a floater while standing perfectly still with 3 defenders around him 5 seconds after the ball is snapped. He doesn't seem fast or quick at all, at least NFL fast for WRs. He might legitimately be the heir to Mike Williams.
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Oct 24, 2013 16:54
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The Puppy Bowl posted:Awesome thread, not that I expected any less. If Bewbies is anything like me then comparisons are always done to players on the collegiate level, not how their careers turned out in the NFL. When I say that Hundley plays like Kaepernick that doesn't automatically crown Hundley. Same goes for how Matthews is being compared to Hardy, it doesn't condemn him. Ozu posted:It'll be interesting to watch the top WR prospects for me since the prevailing talk* is the Jets adding weapons on offense. Right now I think I'd prefer Marqise Lee as the more polished route runner, although he seems to have the injury flags coming up. Lee is my favorite WR right now but I wouldn't put Watkins, Evans, or Lee in the top 15. I feel like people are just trying to find faults in Lee's game because he does everything so well right now. They're right about injury concerns though, as Lee's knee is troublesome. It will affect him as a player if he loses a step.
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Oct 24, 2013 17:31
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I'd definitely point at Aaron Hernandez as the latest one. Harvin was another tweener between HB and WR, but thankfully no one talked him into becoming a HB.Scionix posted:Just curious, where do you guys find the injury grading for prospects? For instance, I can't remember the last time CJ Mosely was too banged up to play, but he's got "serious injury risks" on the evaluation. Is this all a result of that nasty-rear end tackle from the 2011 Natl. Championship? It's extremely hard to pinpoint actual injury concerns as teams will keep that under the tightest wraps. Usually you have to glean that information from what other pundits are saying, as some of them have good inside scoops. Also you can look at the player and see if he's slowed down or hesitant, that usually means injury. Clowney is definitely playing with some sort of leg injury this year even though South Carolina won't come out and say it.
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Oct 24, 2013 18:23
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Coldforge posted:^^^^ Purifoy is absolutely my #1 pick for the Niners this year. I think the success rate of Florida defensive players is like 2 in 65
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Oct 24, 2013 20:11
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Declan MacManus posted:He played very inconsistently after coming back and he ended up getting injured. Another reason to nut up and go into the draft after your best collegiate year. I'm looking at you Jake Locker.
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Oct 24, 2013 20:50
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Barkley was hurt all of last year and it makes sense that he dropped like he did. Plus USC was a dumpster fire that lost receivers and their blue chip LT. But, again, Barkley should have left the year before. He was just afraid of competing against Luck and RG3 in the draft.
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Oct 24, 2013 21:14
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sportsgenius86 posted:Is Chris Borland held in decent regard? He looks really loving good this year and I noticed he wasn't on the OP list. He's seen as small and will go in the second day probably. He'd be a good ILB in a 3-4 though, or at least a good rotational gap plugger.
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Oct 25, 2013 14:56
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Pron on VHS posted:Al Harris is one of the Chiefs DB coaches! Who is an exceptionally good DB coach to hire back in Madden 2011.
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Oct 25, 2013 17:17
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Febreeze posted:How is your pass rush? Because Eli was supposed to shred Carolina's too and we all know how that turned out. The Chargers should be favored, the Giants are really bad, and the game is in San Diego. It'll be a lovely game. Carolina has an amazing front seven but their DBs did very well outside of it. There were more than a few coverage sacks. I'm not sure where the Giants will pick though. They're 1-6 and will probably win a few more. Bucs, Jags, Rams, and Texans all look destined to not win again. That means the Giants have to compete against the Vikings, Raiders, Browns, Bills, Cardinals, Titans, and Redskins for the remaining top 10 spots. They could easily have a horrendous record and still fall out of the top 10 this year. But, the good thing is almost every single one of those teams are in the market for a QB. No matter what, the Giants have trade value this year (they won't trade because they never trade and they'll take some dumb skill position player and ignore the O-line/LB corps again)
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Oct 25, 2013 17:48
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Febreeze posted:The Texans looked capable with Keenum against the best defense in the NFL, I think the texans will win more games than us. That Vikings/Giants game really hit home how bad we are because the vikings played some of the worst football I've ever seen and we still didn't really put them away till late. We are baaaaaaad. I did a write up of that when the Giants dropped to 0-4. I figured that we had a shot to go 5-11. Of the remaining schedule, I feel like we'll take down one game from the Skins, beat the Raiders, and upset one of the rest. That would put us at 4-12 possibly. That would be good enough for around picks 4-8. Still though, you never know with the Giants. Last time they were tanking all season they inexplicably sucked out a win against the Jets and that ended up costing them a bunch of picks when they moved up for Eli. I wouldn't put it past Coughlin to end the season on a positive note by loving over the draft position for a couple of meaningless wins.
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Oct 25, 2013 18:37
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Declan MacManus posted:I was surprised Price wasn't on Bewbies list. I'm thinking he's a 3rd or 4th round pick at least. Bewbies is just one man and it's hard to have a comprehensive list of every eligible player out there. That being said I think Price is playing his way into actually getting drafted, but 3rd or 4th round is a bit of a reach.
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Oct 25, 2013 19:16
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vaginal culture posted:Mariota can just plain miss in baffling ways, and can't reliably hit out routes, I think the right scheme could work around this and he'd be good. It's not baffling. He has lovely footwork which will always lead to inconsistent passes.
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Oct 25, 2013 22:42
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Fussy Dutchman posted:Isn't Anthony Barr more of a 34 OLB/DE type? I can't believe how good he is for UCLA this year, especially with how close he was to coming to ND. But of course, he wanted to play RB, not LB. Barr can easily play the weakside in a 4-3.
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Oct 26, 2013 17:03
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warheadr posted:This is from pages ago, but Clowney himself has already said he's got some bone spur issues in his foot and will likely need a procedure after the season to fix it up. After this weekend's game he said he probably won't be playing totally healthy and feeling great the rest of the year but will keep on playing. I wonder if he winds up having to miss workouts/combine and if it will cause him to drop too far. I'm a huge homer, but I can certainly see how this season may have people thinking he's falling. Those people aren't really watching how he affects plays where he's not getting a stat out of it, but still... Eh that would maybe be true of later round prospects but there are many cameras on Clowney for a reason. Scouts watch every single play for a prospect like him, whether he records a stat on the play or not. Not producing because you're consistently getting double or triple teamed while they run the ball away from you is a good thing, not a knock.
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Oct 28, 2013 18:17
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pangstrom posted:I was just making a joke as they are of course technically contracts, but yes while contracts can be full of conditional propositions (and most terminations aren't really "breaking" them, which would be a breech) in general a contract means a binding agreement and NFL contracts aren't that binding. Man you must work in procurement or something. What NFL players sign are undoubtedly contracts. Breech of contracts are incredibly common everywhere you go and usually lead to amendments to the contract. There is probably an unbelievable amount of paperwork that goes into every transaction in the NFL and I don't envy the person who has to do them.
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Oct 29, 2013 16:56
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Emanuel Collective posted:Actually, NFL contracts are basically just form contracts with numbers plugged in. This is because the NFL and the NFLPA hammer out most material issues whenever they renegotiate the CBA: In the business world we call that Task Orders. You have an overall agreement with a contract and then you release task orders pursuant to the contract for specific efforts. Both the CBA and the form contracts attached to the CBA are still considered contracts. It really is just semantics though since the word 'contract' invokes an unbreakable document in peoples' minds. In reality a contract is just an agreement entered into by at least two entities that is legally binding. So if you go against the contract, odds are both parties will make efforts to amend the contract in order to keep it legally binding. I can only think of one instance in my company where someone did a total breech of contract that led to a lawsuit.
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Oct 29, 2013 17:33
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pangstrom posted:Okay I know this is boring to everyone so this is the last I'll post on this. Maybe I'm getting older or maybe it's because I deal with contracts every day for eight hours a day but I like discussions about them. I don't really think it's a joke because you're correct, I'm just explaining why player contracts are still considered contracts.
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Oct 29, 2013 17:44
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Ozu posted:Hey guys let's see how mind numbingly dull we can make bewbies' awesome NFL Draft thread. That's what sort of happens when the draft is in April and we're talking about it in October.
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Oct 29, 2013 19:27
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Declan MacManus posted:Fire Schiano But he actively wants to tank though
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Oct 29, 2013 20:02
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AAA DOLFAN posted:It's a very easy job. Trust me on this. At least when you do it for an NFL team or a player you're enjoying the subject matter. Try doing it for loving foreclosures and loan modifications. It's not that it's a hard job, it's monotonous and boring.
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Oct 30, 2013 02:51
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Declan MacManus posted:Very few players do, though. Andrew Luck and RG3 seem to be two examples of things changing overnight but in a lot of cases the first quarterback taken doesn't fix everything, unless they're a generational prospect. Clowney is that generational prospect. I don't think Clowney is generational. This is mainly because Mario Williams was bigger, faster, and stronger, and he wasn't generational either. This draft is very deep, but there aren't Luck/Megatron prospects hiding in there. bewbies posted:Not at all. Gabbert was pretty universally regarded as a top 15 prospect, and rightly so. He had all the physical tools, was very productive in college, seemed diligent and hard working, etc etc. There were no real red flags. I drank the poison on Gabbert because he looked so dang good in those Mizzou uni's. He played like a hulk as well. Too bad he got to the NFL and was suddenly smaller than everyone and couldn't shrug off tackles like Big Ben. The mental errors were all over the place with his time in college, and if I didn't get hyped up on the Gabbert train, I would have correctly called his bust status.
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Oct 31, 2013 14:54
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DangerKat posted:If only, Doltos, if only I hate being wrong about QB prospects. I'm usually dead on and the only blatant ones I've missed so far are Matt Ryan and Bradford. drat Ryan for being a frat boy and making me see red instead of the good QB. Edit oh and Ponder but that was because arguing that Ponder is a good QB is fun
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Oct 31, 2013 15:05
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pangstrom posted:I know this is basically impossible and if you're even a third right you get full credit, but how would you rate/rank some of the QBs (individually) in this class? Rank them or predict their bust/success? With a straight rank right now I have: 1. Bridgewater 2. Mariota 3. Hundley 4. Carr 5. Boyd If I had to guess, one of Hundley, Manziel, or Mariota will go back for another season, with probably only Mariota coming out this year. If that is the case, I'd move up McCarron and Mettenberger, although they're both probably muddled with Petty, Bortles, and Fales.
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Oct 31, 2013 15:47
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Declan MacManus posted:Here are some dumb bold QB predictions: Ah I like that. Mine would be: + careers: Bridgewater, Murray, Carr, Hundley, Mariota, McCarron, Bortles - careers: Boyd (times ten), Manziel, Petty, Mettenberger, Fales, Nova (times 50), Morris Logan Thomas will be converted to TE, Braxton Miller will be converted to WR, neither will stick on a team. I'd also like to think Renner will have a magical career and Bortles will be the next Tom Brady. In reality I think the only QB we'll care about in 5 years is Bridgewater and an overrated Mariota. Carr will find some odd success as a Case Keenum type story while Hundley and Manziel will be murdered Pat White sytle. Petty will drink himself into several DUIs followed by extensive pill abuse.
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Oct 31, 2013 15:52
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Ozu posted:Bortles! He's definitely staying another year though. The rest of the UCF offensive weapons are all juniors so I dunno. I feel like they might stick around for another season but I don't know why Bortles would want to test the even tougher QB pool next year when he could be a third rounder this year.
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Oct 31, 2013 16:17
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Gendo posted:*fart* I'm going off of the rating system that Bewbies has for terminology which I think is a pretty accurate assessment. Clowney will suffer from the same problems Williams did coming into the league, mainly AAA DOLFAN posted:Can you post some of your previous stuff on quarterbacks so we can compare? I like reading those things, just like Bewbies posted, and not many people have access to it like you two I'm actually interested in my own statement because I'm not quite positive if posting history would back it up. I would like to start doing write ups like bewbies if people don't mind text walls.
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Oct 31, 2013 18:10
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Declan MacManus posted:You should do it, there's no point to having a draft thread if Bewbies is the only one who's going to contribute. I use the word very too much. I'll do a write up on the QBs soon then.
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Oct 31, 2013 20:22
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Quarterbacks This is nine weeks into the NCAAF season assuming the current prospects will all declare: Teddy Bridgewater, Louisville, 1st #2 rated prospect coming into Louisville. Good height (6'3) for his position but a little thin. Took some big hits in his career. Smart player, makes the correct reads and makes snap decisions. Could use work on the deep ball. Gets comparisons to Russell Wilson due to the release. Steps into his throws and makes his release point a bit lower than ideal. Not terribly mobile but can move well in the pocket. Probably the #1 pick but is getting discounted due to his competition. Looked mortal against stouter defenses in UCF and Rutgers, although still played well. Similar player: Drew Brees Marcus Mariota, Oregon, 1st Tall and strong QB. Exceptional athlete. Called a system QB but the system wouldn't run well without him. Excels against tougher competition. Oregon is running everyone out of the building this year, including Hundley led Bruins. Incredible arm strength with a quick release. Terrible footwork and spotty accuracy will hurt him. Throws too much while shuffling his feet and is prone to ill advised throws. Similar player: Colin Kaepernick Brett Hundley, UCLA, 1st-2nd Two sport athlete with false measurements. Seems smaller than his listed height (6'3) and weight (220). Strong arm and accurate. Makes bad decisions though, has more picks than most of the other top rated QBs in this draft. Can pull it down and move. Rumors about his involvement with JayZ's agency might propel him to declare early (Redshirt sophomore). Similar player: Ryan Tannehill Derek Carr, Fresno State, 1st-2nd From the illustrious Carr bloodlines. Followed his brother to Fresno State and is rivaling his production there. Named his son Dallas. Strong arm with decent mechanics in a vertical passing system. Strong junior year continues with an undefeated season so far. Makes bad decisions when his WRs don't have the sideline. Smaller than Bridgewater and Hundley, will need to put on weight. Similar player: Christian Ponder Tajh Boyd, Clemson, 1st-2nd Incredibly hyped coming into the season but nearly fell flat on his face at Georgia. Coaches remarked that Boyd nearly cost the game due to his inability to translate calls from the sideline. Huge arm. Exceptional athlete than can make frozen rope passes on the move. Sticks it out in the pocket and can take hits due to his frame. Short, though (6'1). Likes to run more than throw and will duck into a hit rather than moving away from it in the pocket. I yell that he's stupid a lot when I watch Clemson games. Similar player: Russell Wilson Johnny Manziel, Texas A&M, 1st-2nd One of the most exciting college football players to ever play the sport. Magical things happen when he touches the ball. Completed a pass to Mike Evans earlier this year that went for 37 total yards for a gain of 17 yards after a seven second scramble. Great athlete that can deliver strikes and outrun defenders. Small, tiny frame will get him pummeled into a red smear in the NFL. Throws awkward open shoulder passes and across his body. Has happy feet. Well known character issues. Similar player: If Tony Romo and Denard Robinson had a love child Aaron Murray, Georgia, 2nd Accomplished starter playing for an injury ravaged team. Exceptionally strong arm for a short QB. Undersized, can't scramble either. Known as a team leader and captain. Impressive touch on short passes, accuracy non existent on deep balls. Three year starter against elite competition, plays well in tough games. Similar player: Matt Barkley Zach Mettenberger, LSU, 2nd-3rd Huge QB with a big arm. Good pocket presence. Has the benefit of playing on a strong team with two draft-worthy WRs. JUCO transfer, led his community college to a national championship berth. Makes bad decisions. Could use a lot of schooling. Les Miles likes to produce poison pill QBs. Similar player: Ben Roethlisberger Logan Thomas, Virginia Tech, 2nd-3rd Elite athlete. Huge. Sucks at QB. Can't throw a ball worth a poo poo. Former TE, converted when he came to the Hokies. Scouts have been looking for him to improve for years now and he's only getting worse. Ranked high because someone will turn him into a TE again and you can't pass up on a 6'6 250 lbs dude who runs a 4.6. Similar player: If Jimmy Graham was a QB Stephen Morris, Miami, 3rd Decent sized QB with a decent arm. Has the athleticism to pull it down and run. Often chooses to do so when there's pressure in his face. Good touch on short routes, could improve intermediate. Panics and throws INTs. Miami is 7-0 so he's getting spotlight and performing decently. Got abused by North Carolina's pass rush. Similar player: Kirk Cousins AJ McCarron, Alabama, 3rd Has just the most terrible tattoo to ever grace a college athlete, which is an accomplishment in its own right. It makes the next point kind of null and void. Smart. Good arm, good accuracy. Can't throw the deep ball. Compact throwing motion and gets it out quick. Trained to be a game manager and is excelling in that role. Can tuck and run it. Good sized, could put on a few more pounds. Similar player: Chad Pennington. Others David Fales, San Jose State, 3rd-5th Good arm, good accuracy. Can't run. San Jose State's passing attack highlights quick dart throws with not a lot of other reads. Benefits greatly from this. Braxton Miller, Ohio State, 3rd-5th Destroys slow Big Ten defenses with his speed. Not a QB at the next level. Can't hit the broadside of the barn. Bryce Petty, Baylor, 3rd-5th Four year junior, might go back another year and try to make a crack at the first round. Has the face of a 45 year old alcoholic. Jimmy Garoppolo, Eastern Illinois, 4th-6th Shorter but stout. Good accuracy and can move. Plays against weak FBS competition. Kind of an underwhelming arm. His uncle is on the township committee for my town. Keith Price, Washington, 5th-7th Tiny. Good game manager. Slow for a small guy. Can put the ball where it needs to go. Bryn Renner, North Carolina, 5th-7th Good athlete. Lacking the team that made him a name last year. Plays baseball as well. Kind of underwhelming package with sub-par arm strength.
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Oct 31, 2013 21:32
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DupaDupa posted:How is it possible to have a worse tattoo than Bray?   Judge for yourself TheChirurgeon posted:Which of those QBs pass the Parcells test besides McCarron? Murray and Carr I believe.
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Oct 31, 2013 21:52
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High school scouting is difficult. It's all based on hype and state championship games. Then, after they get recruited, any number of things can happen to make the prospect look like poo poo. Remember Seantrel Henderson being 300 lbs of muscle his senior year of high school? Who woulda thought his career would have been derailed by snakebite injuries.
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Nov 1, 2013 16:26
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Granted that Curry and Gallery both looked like can't fail prospects, but they both had their knocks coming out. Guys like Megatron really don't fail, and I can't remember the last Megatron quality prospect that didn't do well in the NFL. Sure it's easy to hindsight it but guys like Ryan Leaf and Tony Mandarich really weren't can't miss generational prospects. They turned into poster boys for red flags to watch out for. The only thing I can think of that might have made me wary of Calvin Johnson was Georgia Tech's triple threat offense, but that's about it.
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Nov 1, 2013 18:10
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Relentlessboredomm posted:You mean the fact that he never played in a passing offense and didn't run anything close to a full route tree? Yea, that's a bit of a concern. SteelAngel2000 posted:Imagine if Megatron had someone other than Reggie Ball throwing to him in college
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Nov 1, 2013 21:08
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SlipUp posted:Which combine workout tells you how much of a gently caress someone will give after becoming rich beyond their wildest dreams? QB/WR route tree workout. We should really try to make it a practice to do updates on prospects every Sunday morning. I always have nothing to do waiting for 1 PM games and I figure we should do it while it's fresh in our minds. For instance: - I was impressed with Carr's game against Nevada. He has a cannon on short routes and his HB could barely catch the ball. - Stephen Morris overshoot his receivers on deep routes all game at Florida State, but I'm not sure if it's him or the the receivers. Stadium was incredibly loud and it looked like there were a bunch of wrong routes being ran. - Watkins made up for some bad accuracy on deep routes from Boyd. Boyd played well though and kept his head up all game, just has to work on his deep route tree. Watkins looks as great as ever. - Braxton Miller should go back for one more year. He's starting to show more form on his throws but it's just not there yet.
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Nov 3, 2013 18:07
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euphronius posted:Why don't you ever see TEs taller than about 6-5 or 6-6. Do they make them tackles if they are even taller? (Or power forwards.) If you're above 6-6 and are athletic enough to be a NFL TE, chances are you're making near the max deal in the NBA. The Puppy Bowl posted:In the interest of stimulating conversation, who do you all see as a player who has the makings of a first ballot HoFer? Obviously a ridiculously speculative question but outlandish assumptions are part of the fun of draft talk. So come who's your favorite of the bunch and why are you so biased towards him? That's always an interesting question. There are a few prospects that seem mediocre at first but sometimes you just feel like they're going to be future HOFers or constant pro bowl recipients. Sometimes I feel these guys aren't found in the top 10, but anywhere in the draft. For instance, Keith Bullock and Brian Urlacher both paled in comparison to Lavar Arrington coming out. Arrington was coming off a great season at Linebacker U, was doing all sorts of crazy poo poo like jumping over the LOS before the snap and getting a sack, and was generally a broad shouldered beast. Urlacher was a speedy safety convert to MLB that people were hesitant to roll the dice on, and Bullock was a sideline to sideline tackler that was getting questioned about his toughness. The equivalent in today's draft would be Clowney versus Trent Murphy or Jackson Jeffcoat. You'd never guess either would be a bigger name, but that's the draft for you.
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Nov 4, 2013 16:07
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Declan MacManus posted:E: Also the NBA I guess but being 6'7 and athletic with no other skills makes you Joe Alexander which is no way to make a living. Every bench in the league has that one 6'7 athletic dude who gets million dollar pay checks because he dunked really hard on a summer league player once. I imagine he loves his job.
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Nov 4, 2013 16:13
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seiferguy posted:I'd like to think Ryan Leaf was a bigger bust than JaMarcus. Dude was hyped so highly, and people kept saying you could easily switch him and Peyton easily for #1 pick. Leaf's "character concerns" got the best of him and he ultimately became hated by his own team. He was. In terms of actual money, Bradford seems to be the worst bust followed closely by Russell and anyone else picked in the top 5 until the rookie wage scale fell in place. But in terms of actual hype and devastation to a franchise, Leaf takes the cake. This was just when the draft was becoming super popular too, so it hurt even more when all these talking heads were wrong about Leaf. Leaf was the more popular player from a weaker school. Peyton was the son of Archie while Leaf was this blue collared good ol' boy from Montana. Peyton had NFL PRO STYLE OFFENSE and SMART under his belt while Leaf had a cannon and bombed it all over the place. It was almost as if people wanted Leaf to show up Peyton and be the next big thing in the NFL, which made it hurt so much more when he collapsed. And he didn't collapse like Bradford or Russell by just playing poorly then getting cut. Nope, Leaf blew up in the locker room, on national TV, and fell into severe drug use and criminal activity. No one is a bigger bust than Leaf, and the only person close to him is Tony Mandarich followed maybe by Robert Gallery, then a distant fourth is Russell/Bradford.
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Nov 4, 2013 19:20
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