|
FH_Meta posted:I think, but can't quite be sure between the awe at level of cultural reference and the FFL2/SaGa2 flashbacks, that the whole point of the post was basically why they felt that Payday worked as the translated name. Yes, I see that - now. I made the mistaken assumption that the referenced card was the translated one. 
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2013 01:10
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 12:22 |
|
|
Xelkelvos posted:I would put extra money in if a TN booklet was made, just to be in awe of it all. There's talk about it, of course. Offering a "Localizer's Package" which includes our translation, the original books (so you can point out the flaws, of course) and translation liner notes is a fine idea and I'm sure all of the people who are gettin mad huffy that the game is not being translated on one to one parity in the image of their patron saint Haruhi Suzumiya or what not can enjoy the originals in their native language. A short update - we're working on updating the raws (for the mechanics portion) so expect some updates soon regarding playtesting. I will also need to whip up an NDA and a variety of surveys that I'll need to get set up. Probably another week before I start throwing things at people.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2013 04:20
|
|
|
aldantefax posted:There's talk about it, of course. Offering a "Localizer's Package" which includes our translation, the original books (so you can point out the flaws, of course) and translation liner notes is a fine idea and I'm sure all of the people who are gettin mad huffy that the game is not being translated on one to one parity in the image of their patron saint Haruhi Suzumiya or what not can enjoy the originals in their native language. So I dunno, I hope there's some kind of tier that's just PDF + notes, or maybe translated version + notes?
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2013 04:48
|
|
|
Davzz posted:I would go for that if not for the fact that I know shipping would kill me (going by the Ryuutama kickstarter anyway). Yeah. The ideal for me would also be book/PDF and TL notes, without the originals.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2013 05:02
|
|
|
mikeycp posted:Yeah. The ideal for me would also be book/PDF and TL notes, without the originals. Yeah me too, my kanji isn't good enough to make use of the originals, but I'm pretty fascinated by the translation notes that i've read so far.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2013 06:22
|
|
|
It worked for TBZ.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2013 06:33
|
|
|
I can honestly say that, if it wasn't for this thread, I would have no idea that "Payday" in the localised version referred to a candy bar.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2013 17:18
|
|
|
Cheap Trick posted:I can honestly say that, if it wasn't for this thread, I would have no idea that "Payday" in the localised version referred to a candy bar. It's pretty ubiquitous here in the US, due to the bar being distributed by Hershey's, our 800-pound gorilla of a candy company. It's basically a caramel log covered in salted peanuts, and there are variations where it's covered in chocolate.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2013 19:31
|
|
|
I would pay money for a localization notes thing. All the original art and text and stuff, with explanations for why they were changed and a look into the thoughts that went into coming up with the replacement art/text. For that whole money thing, Gelt came to mind, but yeah, that's a really tough thing to tackle.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2013 19:41
|
|
|
I would also pay money for a translation/localization notes pamphlet/booklet/whatever. Just in case the number of goons offering to buy it affects the decision to make it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2013 20:20
|
|
|
Honestly I like goofy terminology like "Bee" and would at least like to see that kind of thing noted in a terminology guide. I like some of the goofy terminology in stuff like Double Cross (Loises, wut), for example, though for all I know that's a particularly goofy terminology choice.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2013 20:29
|
|
|
Alien Rope Burn posted:Honestly I like goofy terminology like "Bee" and would at least like to see that kind of thing noted in a terminology guide. I like some of the goofy terminology in stuff like Double Cross (Loises, wut), for example, though for all I know that's a particularly goofy terminology choice. Loises is awesome. I like the idea that every character has some chump who is always running interference on their superbrawl. I'm super excited about this translation. Everybody in my group will probably make fun of me when I pick this book up, but it looks really fun from what I've read over in FATAL and Friends.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2013 22:15
|
|
|
Alien Rope Burn posted:Honestly I like goofy terminology like "Bee" and would at least like to see that kind of thing noted in a terminology guide. I like some of the goofy terminology in stuff like Double Cross (Loises, wut), for example, though for all I know that's a particularly goofy terminology choice. Well, a Lois has a very specific connotation that they made up for Double Cross that is also reflected in other games after the archetype of a Lois Lane supporting character (KH explained it to me awhile ago during a get-together). "Bee" is probably a translation error or a pun that hasn't been revealed yet from the kanji/fluff text combo (Worker Bee, Busy Bee, etc). The original engrish text comes from the original design team sometimes not having an appropriate phrase or misunderstanding so they end up with something that doesn't make a lot of sense at face value; same thing with "Drone" (we might go with a Dragon Quest reference there of "Lazybones"). Since we don't have the fluff text fully translated yet we currently have "Best Guess" localizations but they may all be subject to change based on whatever make the most sense contextually for a given entry. For everybody saying "I will pay extra money for this!" that is cool, I like more money. We're not quite at that phase yet but it'll be noted down for consideration; considering that we'll be documenting a variety of things I'm sure that those types of notes will make its way in as some type of supplement if there's sufficient interest (if it isn't going to impact deadlines when we go to print, etc).
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2013 22:27
|
|
|
Alien Rope Burn posted:It's pretty ubiquitous here in the US, due to the bar being distributed by Hershey's, our 800-pound gorilla of a candy company. It's basically a caramel log covered in salted peanuts, and there are variations where it's covered in chocolate. I've lived my whole life in the US of A and I've heard more about Zero than Payday. Personally, I think the Payday reference is almost half as obscure as the Stone=Peter business from Deadlands. It's not pants-on-head retarded like with Deadlands, but it's still a very opaque in-joke that you'd only get if you read the "behind the scenes" notes.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2013 00:16
|
|
|
Man have you guys never been in a convenience store or something? Shoot, I'm gonna go buy one right now. http://www.hersheys.com/payday.aspx
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2013 00:21
|
|
|
Paydays are my favorite candy bar. Except for Kitkats or Reese's Peanutbutter cups that have been sitting in the freezer. Cold/frozen candy is the best candy. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2013 00:25
|
|
|
Galaga Galaxian posted:Except for Kitkats or Reese's Peanutbutter cups that have been sitting in the freezer. Cold/frozen candy is the best candy. You say that like you think it would be possible for anyone of sound mind to disagree.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2013 01:18
|
|
|
Lynx Winters posted:Man have you guys never been in a convenience store or something? Shoot, I'm gonna go buy one right now. Galaga Galaxian posted:Paydays are my favorite candy bar. Honestly, I'm kind of surprised that so many people don't know Payday. It's pretty hard to miss them when I go to a convenience store, and every now and then commercials for Payday still pop up. Not Hershey's, KitKat, Reese's, Twix, Almond Joy, Baby Ruth, Butterfinger, Nestle Crunch, Snickers, Milky Way, Whatchamacallit (probably missed some here but that is most of the major brands), but I guess this just demonstrates Milk Chocolate Supremacy. I may be biased, though. Since I had to cut chocolate out of my diet, Payday is basically the only widely available candy bar there is that I can have.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2013 01:26
|
|
|
Hersheys doesn't exist in europe at least. The general consensus is that it is bad chocolate.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2013 01:39
|
|
|
Little_wh0re posted:Hersheys doesn't exist in europe at least. The general consensus is that it is bad chocolate. In fairness that's the general consensus here too. But at least it's not Tootsie Rolls.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2013 02:00
|
|
|
aldantefax posted:"Bee" is probably a translation error or a pun that hasn't been revealed yet from the kanji/fluff text combo (Worker Bee, Busy Bee, etc). The original engrish text comes from the original design team sometimes not having an appropriate phrase or misunderstanding so they end up with something that doesn't make a lot of sense at face value; same thing with "Drone" (we might go with a Dragon Quest reference there of "Lazybones"). I have a feeling that worker bee is what they are thinking of when they say bee, as in one of a group that does some mundane task. Though I make this assumption purely because it's used in almost the same way as in the series Letter Bee, so I am not confident in this assertion.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2013 07:19
|
|
|
Gasperkun posted:Honestly, I'm kind of surprised that so many people don't know Payday. It's pretty hard to miss them when I go to a convenience store, and every now and then commercials for Payday still pop up. Not Hershey's, KitKat, Reese's, Twix, Almond Joy, Baby Ruth, Butterfinger, Nestle Crunch, Snickers, Milky Way, Whatchamacallit (probably missed some here but that is most of the major brands), but I guess this just demonstrates Milk Chocolate Supremacy. We have maybe four of those candy bars you mentioned in Australia.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2013 10:53
|
|
|
Cheap Trick posted:We have maybe four of those candy bars you mentioned in Australia. That's how it is here, so I suppose I am more surprised now than my previous comment that the candy people haven't tried to push more brands out there in other countries. Payday makes sense to me as a localization, but it is just that: a localization. I'm sure someone upthread, whom I can't recall at the moment in my tiredness, mentioned that a sidebar might help with stuff like this. Maybe a derail, but I think this talk about candy bar brands demonstrates the localization factor.
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2013 11:33
|
|
|
Not to mention it is doubtful that everyone in japan knows about yamabuki-iro as a novelty product anyway; they DO know about the kabuki scene though. Its one of those things where I question if it can be localized as both a bribe AND a food product, since even in the originating culture, does the majority of japan know about these novelty food items? Is there a parallel food item that a world-wide english-speaking audience will understand? There are a number of worldwide food brands in the English speaking world. McDonalds, Nestle, etc. But in individual countries, only a few flagship products will be universal. The BigMac exists worldwide, except in India, where it is made with chicken. Other McDonalds products can be very local, or differ fairly dramatically in presentation, quality, ingredients used etc. Since there probably isn't a parallel product, you can either localize it as "Golden Cakes" or something equally generic, or try for a pun like Payday that is much less generic but closer to the original double meaning. Honestly, a playtest of the translation will bring up a lot of these elements, because certain groups will get a cultural reference that will leave another group scratching their heads. If someone can tease out the meaning or discover it with a quick google, I feel there is no harm no foul. But if its just baffling, then maybe it is time to take it back to the drawing board. Only way to know, and identify problems, is to get the translation out there ultimately. Translation is hard. Localization is even harder, especially if your market is not just "North America" but "The english speaking world."
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2013 19:45
|
|
|
I think one nice thing about fantasy is that people are going to be a bit more forgiving when it comes to suggestive but not straightforward names. I'd say that even a fairly literal translation followed by a more intuitive one in parentheses might work--something like "Snack of Sunlight Yellow (Bribe)" might keep both the flavor and the clarity. You miss the cultural references, but those seem almost impossible to fully translate, especially when one translation might be used for many countries (as this Payday/Australia conversation is showing).
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2013 22:22
|
|
|
Dough? Possibly mounds of dough...?
|
|
#
?
Nov 9, 2013 23:39
|
|
|
Squizzle posted:Dough? Possibly mounds of dough...? I can't believe I didn't think of this.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2013 00:26
|
|
|
OtspIII posted:I think one nice thing about fantasy is that people are going to be a bit more forgiving when it comes to suggestive but not straightforward names. I'd say that even a fairly literal translation followed by a more intuitive one in parentheses might work--something like "Snack of Sunlight Yellow (Bribe)" might keep both the flavor and the clarity. You miss the cultural references, but those seem almost impossible to fully translate, especially when one translation might be used for many countries (as this Payday/Australia conversation is showing). This isn't a super nuanced work of literature in which the original meaning and intention must be preserved for the purpose of fully appreciating the text. The fact that this particular ability might have a really nuanced meaning in the original Japanese doesn't matter when I turn to the page to find out what it does. When I use this ability in game I would much rather refer to it as Payday then "Snack of Sunlight Yellow", you know, Bribe? A separate book of Translator's Notes would be the perfect place to put that kind of stuff. Even if it was just a soft cover version of the full book with little sidebars overlayed over the original formatting.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2013 01:14
|
|
|
I don't recall at the moment whether this already came up, but for some people, at least in fiction, a bribe IS a Pay day. I would hope that regardless the candy bar context, the term pay day or payday has some connotation fairly universally with getting money, because it's the day when your check comes in. In that sense it's kinda like a bribe, since people who don't like their job need to get paid/bribed in order to keep at it. A bribe is probably gonna be a bit of a financial windfall too, which is why there are stories about people who keep taking bribes because they need the extra cash for themselves, their families, or whatever. So a bribe is like payday too, because you are getting a wad of cash thrown at you for "services rendered."
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2013 01:23
|
|
|
Yeah. I would only think about literally translating it like that if I also inserted in a Sunlight Yellow Overdrive joke. And even then...
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2013 01:23
|
|
|
Laphroaig posted:"Golden Cakes" Twinkies! Are those known internationally?
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2013 14:16
|
|
|
Bitchtits McGee posted:Twinkies! Are those known internationally? Maybe, but they are a registered Trademark.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2013 14:51
|
|
|
Bitchtits McGee posted:Twinkies! Are those known internationally? At that point you're saying that it's more important for the joke to be food than a bribe. And given that it's a bribe power I think you're putting the cart before the horse here.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2013 19:26
|
|
|
realbrickwall posted:I'm guessing that "100 Grand" is a bit too on-the-nose, huh? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6mYbqy6cPM
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2013 20:15
|
|
|
Mystic Mongol posted:At that point you're saying that it's more important for the joke to be food than a bribe. And given that it's a bribe power I think you're putting the cart before the horse here. Not if you called it Cache of Golden Cakes Too bad the pun only appears when you read it aloud. One of the main advantages Japanese has in writing puns is the ability to put two writings of the same word in the same space.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2013 20:28
|
|
|
NinjaDebugger posted:Not if you called it Cache of Golden Cakes See like, I have no idea how this is a pun but even if I don't know what a Payday bar is I understand what the game mechanic is for just from the name. Then when I crack open my handy dandy book of TN's I can go oh that's clever.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2013 21:00
|
|
|
Mystic Mongol posted:At that point you're saying that it's more important for the joke to be food than a bribe. And given that it's a bribe power I think you're putting the cart before the horse here. They look kinda like gold bullion, too, and... uh... well, it made more sense when I posted it a few hours ago. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2013 21:55
|
|
|
I think it says a lot about the translators' predicament when this one element of the game prompts so much discussion. Imagine that they have an entire game to translate like that, poor souls. I'm really looking forward for when this comes out. I'm having a blast with Japanese RPGs lately. I've always known RPGs were a big thing in Japan, ever since they started releasing manga and anime based on campaigns, but it's been a very pleasant surprise seeing the design of their own games. And we could always use some more light-hearted titles in the market. Meikyuu apparently has heaps of charm.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2013 01:53
|
|
|
Cyphoderus posted:I think it says a lot about the translators' predicament when this one element of the game prompts so much discussion. Imagine that they have an entire game to translate like that, poor souls. Let me go ahead and clear up this misconception. You all have been going on about this one card for like a week now, getting into the history of the reference that the original item made and making it this big huge deal. The actual decision went like this: Dude 1: OK let's look at Snack of Yellow Sunlight, that's a weird thing that most Westerners won't really get. Dude 2: Alright, the rules and fluff more or less indicate that it's a snack and it's also a bribe. Dude 3: So, maybe we go with "chocolate coins?" Dude 1: NO. PAYDAY. Dude 2 and 3: That is fantastic. Let's move on. And move on we did, because we had to make the rest of the demo pack for SPIEL and only had about 12 hours left or something. In a recent conference call we were discussing just how accurate we wanted to be with the localization and on spectrum that goes from Google Translate to 4Kids, it seems like we're aiming for somewhere short of Disgaea; close enough where we can but we'll sacrifice a TINY bit of accuracy for entertainment. The other thing is that not everyone has to get every joke or reference. If we spent half the time you people have worrying about stuff like "does everyone know that this is a candy bar" this product would be bland as hell and get released in 2035. All that being said, it seems like a lot of people would like an extra Translator's Notes sort of thing and that sounds pretty reasonable. Most of the changes will be pretty obvious in terms of why we changed it, but maybe this whole Payday thing will end up as a story or something.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2013 04:16
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 12:22 |
|
|
I thought  was a risk with any thread in TG.Anyhow, I would support going with the translation you feel makes sense and then having a translation notes thing so people who look at it and don't get it have something to glance over to try and understand.
|
|
#
?
Nov 11, 2013 05:01
|
|