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penus de milo
Mar 9, 2002

CHAR CHAR

I dunno, I felt like this was a big enough subject to be worthy of a discussion thread.

http://www.salon.com/2013/11/06/sta...e_neighborhood/

quote:

Standing your ground? Black woman shot in head seeking help in white neighborhood.
The family of Renisha McBride, 19, seeks answers after she was shot in the head and the shooter may avoid charges


Renisha McBride, 19, shot dead (Credit: Screenshot, Fox 2)

“You see a young black lady on your porch and you shoot?” demanded Bernita Sparks, the aunt of slain Detroit 19-year-old Renisha McBride. McBride was shot in the head and killed when, according to her family, she was seeking help, knocking on doors in a white neighborhood after her car crashed.

McBride’s family is asking prosecutors for information on the incident that left the unarmed young woman dead. Scant details have been provided. As the Detroit News reported “Dearborn Heights [Police Department has] identified the person who fired the shot and killed the woman.” However, police have claimed that the shooter believed McBride to be an intruder and shot in self-defense. Initial police reports that described the 19-year-old’s body as having been “dumped” have been amended to state that she was found on the shooter’s porch.

Self-defense gone wrong is not a sufficient excuse for a bullet in the head, McBride’s family has stressed. “He shot her in the head … for what? For knocking on his door,” said Spinks. “If he felt scared or threatened, he should have called 911.”

Police have now asked that charges be brought against the shooter. But since a “stand your ground” law applies in Michigan, the charges may not stick. As Rania Khalek has rightly pointed out on her blog, “The problem with a law like Stand Your Ground is that it excuses and encourages deadly force against ‘perceived’ threats. In the United States, where implicit and structural racism persists on a vast scale, is it wise to empower people who almost certainly have irrational and racist fears.”

And as Khalek notes in the case of McBride’s shooting, “She is after all a black woman from Detroit, which is 82 percent black, whereas Dearborn Heights, the area she was shot in, is 86 percent white … Regardless of your position on Stand Your Ground, one thing is for sure. The family of 19-year-old Renisha McBride deserves answers.”

Given historical and recent events I think people are justified in reading race into this. A young woman knocks on your door in the night and you're so afraid of her you shoot her in the head? How the gently caress does that happen? I think it's reasonable to expect that if you have laws which allow the use of deadly force then they will be scrutinised and examined and adjusted where necessary. I realise that the "no charges" part is hypothetical at this point, but do you think it's all that unlikely a thing to speculate about? The historical trend of white aggression towards black people is white people getting away with it.

Anyway, feel free to chat about this and other great moments in race-relations history, if you're gonna do the inevitable gunchat thing please keep it about Stand Your Ground and not go off inventing imaginary women walking alone in parks at night.

penus de milo fucked around with this message at Nov 7, 2013 around 15:09

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Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007

Hello

Any more details yet? Can't fully chime in until I know more. But spoiler: I'm horrified.

Dirt5o8
Nov 6, 2008



I might have missed it but where does it say she was shot in the back of the head? I would think that right there would make it a crime beyond a reasonable doubt.

Slaan
Mar 16, 2009

Why, yes,
I will poke your Gushing Spring Point!


The back of her head. The Back. As in, not facing towards you. How the hell would anyone think "Stand Your Ground" would work here?


Though, of course it will, this being the US.

penus de milo
Mar 9, 2002

CHAR CHAR

poo poo, I can't change the thread title. The "back of the head" part I must have misread, the article's formatting is really hosed up on my laptop. Apologies, I still think the story is worth talking about but it wasn't my intention my mislead.

edit: thanks, mods

penus de milo fucked around with this message at Nov 7, 2013 around 15:09

Serotonin
Jul 14, 2001

The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of *blank*


One of the comments mentions the victims relative saying her face was blown off because she had been shot int he back of the head.

"Hard to imagine the shooter's lack of humanity to claim self-defense after shooting the girl with a shotgun in the back of her head - half of her face is missing (according to the girl's aunt on Detroit news)."

Sound
Oct 18, 2004


Ugh, terrible. I wonder who the homeowner is and what their background is. Odds on LEO/ex-military?

Radish
Aug 13, 2003

not so ruff onichan

At least the police sound like they want to actually charge in this case.

Sancho
Jul 18, 2003



http://www.sfgate.com/news/crime/ar...ing-4963320.php

quote:

The Detroit News and the Detroit Free Press report 19-year-old Renisha McBride of Detroit was killed by a shotgun blast in Dearborn Heights early Saturday.

Incoming Joe Biden jokes.

Dolash
Oct 23, 2008

Pickle: Inspected.


If there aren't any major mitigating circumstances (and there probably aren't), this really has to be prosecuted if only because it appears to suggest you can shoot goddamn anyone who knocks on your door and just say you felt threatened after.

Sancho
Jul 18, 2003



Dolash posted:

If there aren't any major mitigating circumstances (and there probably aren't), this really has to be prosecuted if only because it appears to suggest you can shoot goddamn anyone who knocks on your door and just say you felt threatened after.

It doesn't work if the races are reversed.

Warchicken
Jun 9, 2004


Why be optimistic at all? It doesn't matter how obvious it is, if the victim is black and the shooter is white they will be acquitted.

Ender.uNF
Sep 28, 2001
Lowtax giveth, and Lowtax taketh away.

Dolash posted:

If there aren't any major mitigating circumstances (and there probably aren't), this really has to be prosecuted if only because it appears to suggest you can shoot goddamn anyone who knocks on your door and just say you felt threatened after.

I know people like to hate on South Park around here but the Zimmerman episode is right on the nose... "Wait, this kid's not black", one beat, "Guilty!", one beat, *cue Zimmerman in the electric chair*

Ddraig
Sep 5, 2005

Sits with a full house

Apparently it's ok to walk down a street after someone and then shoot him, provided they're black. Shooting a black person from the comfort of your own home is practically a right given that incredibly low bar.

dogs named Charlie
Apr 5, 2009


There was a case almost exactly like this mentioned in another thread. Watch it already be mentioned by the time I hit post.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...ype_threat.html

Hieronymous Alloy
Jan 30, 2009


Why?! Why?! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market ?!!!



I would shoot for a Dick Cheney joke personally. I mean, I wouldn't actually shoot anything anywhere near Dick Cheney.

Roguelike
Jul 29, 2006
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The legal analysis in the article seems a little sketchy. This seems like more of a castle doctrine issue than a stand your ground issue. Looking at the Michigan castle doctrine law, all that's required before you can shoot a person dead is a reasonable belief that they are breaking and entering. For this to be stand your ground, I think the confrontation would have to take place outside the house or the killer would have to be a neighbor or something.

I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think the killer can use race to establish their 'reasonable' belief. "She was black and I was scared because I'm in the KKK," is not a valid defense for shooting people on your porch.

dogs named Charlie posted:

There was a case almost exactly like this mentioned in another thread. Watch it already be mentioned by the time I hit post.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...ype_threat.html

I believe a policeman was charged in that case. And it's likely someone will be charged in this case unless some extraordinary facts emerge.

Roguelike fucked around with this message at Nov 7, 2013 around 15:47

Popular Thug Drink
Apr 25, 2013

PROUD SURVIVOR OF WINTER STORM SHERMAN.

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penus de milo posted:

A young woman knocks on your door in the night and you're so afraid of her you shoot her in the head? How the gently caress does that happen?

Michigan might be the most racist place I've ever been. White people in the Detroit suburbs are utterly terrified of black people.

Phone
Jul 30, 2005

brb, shortcut

I can't wait for the online commenters to come out in full force and say it was a lawful killing because she was hopped up on purple drink when she crashed her car.

CroatianAlzheimers
Jun 15, 2009

I can't remember why I'm mad at you...


Warchicken posted:

Why be optimistic at all? It doesn't matter how obvious it is, if the victim is black and the shooter is white they will be acquitted.

The shooter is almost certainly white. Dearborn Heights is something like 90% white I think. Dollars to donuts this guy never sees the inside of a courtroom.

Popular Thug Drink posted:

Michigan might be the most racist place I've ever been. White people in the Detroit suburbs are utterly terrified of black people.

It really is. I don't know that I've ever seen anything like it. The intense racism, anger, and mile-road classism of the Metro Area makes Detroit the weirdest place I've ever lived.

CroatianAlzheimers fucked around with this message at Nov 7, 2013 around 15:54

Tubba Blubba
Jul 14, 2011



Most intruders don't knock on doors in my experience.

SavageBastard
Nov 16, 2007
Professional Lurker

Tubba Blubba posted:

Most intruders don't knock on doors in my experience.

She was intruding into the neighborhood, you see.

Tubba Blubba
Jul 14, 2011



I guess the world looks quite different when you're a horrible racist.

disheveled
Jun 6, 2001



There are basically no details out yet, but this is getting a lot of publicity, so expect more.

While Dearborn Heights is mostly white, and while Metro Detroit is a very segregrated area with the constant drone of subtle racism, this is jarring enough that people are very upset about it. Hell, even the online comments on the local papers are mostly calling out this guy for being a racist idiot. It appears the police immediately started an investigation and referred the case to a prosecutor before the family got to the media (or the media got to the family). Who knows how this would go without that media attention, but I'm actually optimistic.

Slaan
Mar 16, 2009

Why, yes,
I will poke your Gushing Spring Point!


Yeah, its good to hear that people are actually wanting to prosecute this before the huge media clusterfucks. I guess all the stuff around Zimmerman has made police departments/prosecutors more jumpy?

Tubba Blubba posted:

Most intruders don't knock on doors in my experience.

Obviously, she was trying to break down the door with her fists, like every feral urban thug. This poor man had to defend himself!

HUGE PUBES A PLUS
Apr 30, 2005

The Koch brothers are behind this new avatar.


I'm sure other urban centers have similar issues, but in Detroit it's an unfortunate truth that pulling into a driveway could get you shot. I found this out when transporting students to Chadsey High School in 2005. Turned down a dead end street and the kids started screaming at me not to back up in a driveway because we're in the hood. Never made that mistake again. I'm shocked that girl went to a stranger's house.

HUGE PUBES A PLUS fucked around with this message at Nov 7, 2013 around 16:17

disheveled
Jun 6, 2001



Highspeeddub posted:

I'm sure other urban centers have similar issues, but in Detroit it's an unfortunate truth that pulling into a driveway could get you shot. I found this out when transporting students to Chadsey High School in 2005. Turned down a dead end street and the kids started screaming at me not to back up in a driveway because we're in the hood. Never made that mistake again. I'm shocked that girl went to a stranger's house.

This is a completely different area. It's a safe neighborhood in a working class suburb of Detroit.

Doctor Dog
Sep 6, 2008



Safe for who?

Diet Lime
Aug 10, 2013

by toby


Doctor Dog posted:

Safe for who?

She chose the wrong house. Whoever shot her needs to get life.

You can't just shoot people. You just... don't shoot people.

In Detroit, that person needs to leave town now. If the justice system doesn't hold him accountable, it's possible some vigilante who didn't even know her will.

NaanViolence
Mar 1, 2010
This sort of shit posting is par for the course

Phone posted:

I can't wait for the online commenters to come out in full force and say it was a lawful killing because she was hopped up on purple drink when she crashed her car.

This will happen. Those people will then smoke a bowl.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

Knee deep in the V.A.G.

If it really was a shot to the back of the head after a car accident, this had better see a courtroom. Holy crap what the gently caress is wrong with people?

HUGE PUBES A PLUS
Apr 30, 2005

The Koch brothers are behind this new avatar.


disheveled posted:

This is a completely different area. It's a safe neighborhood in a working class suburb of Detroit.

Everyone in Detroit, and that includes the metro area carries when they go anywhere. I knew a man who kept a gun in the drivers seat of his jeep when pumping gas. Dearborn Heights is not that far away from Detroit.

HUGE PUBES A PLUS fucked around with this message at Nov 7, 2013 around 16:55

CroatianAlzheimers
Jun 15, 2009

I can't remember why I'm mad at you...


Highspeeddub posted:

Everyone in Detroit, and that includes the metro area carries when they go anywhere. I knew a man who kept a gun in the drivers seat of his jeep when pumping gas. Dearborn Heights is not that far away from Detroit.

Who's this "everyone", Dub? I don't. My wife doesn't. Only one of my friends carries that I know of, and that's uncommon for him. None of my colleagues or acquaintances do, nor do the teachers at my daughter's school. What part of town do you live in where everyone carries?

Woman
Oct 31, 2010


You might not have misread, this article also says she was apparently shot in the back of the head.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...g-help/3465719/

quote:

They said McBride, whose cellphone had died, had gone up to the house on Outer Drive seeking help after she was involved in an auto accident early Saturday morning.

They say McBride was shot in the back of the head with a shotgun as she turned to leave.

Police released few details and would only say that McBride was shot as she stood on the porch.

Obdicut
May 15, 2012

I'm Obdicut! You'll go where I go, defile what I defile, eat who I eat!

Highspeeddub posted:

Everyone in Detroit, and that includes the metro area carries when they go anywhere. I knew a man who kept a gun in the drivers seat of his jeep when pumping gas. Dearborn Heights is not that far away from Detroit.

None of the hundred-plus people I know in Detroit carries a gun when they go anywhere.

Reason
Sep 10, 2006


They need to release the name of the person who did it.

Anukis
Jan 23, 2006

I'm an empathetic, sensitive, educated, intellectually curious non-idiot. Hi.


White people should not be allowed to have guns. Or people in general, but especially white people.

disheveled
Jun 6, 2001



Highspeeddub posted:

Everyone in Detroit, and that includes the metro area carries when they go anywhere. I knew a man who kept a gun in the drivers seat of his jeep when pumping gas. Dearborn Heights is not that far away from Detroit.

Sweetheart, I grew up there, and you're an idiot.

It took me seconds to find the actual numbers on this, which are 79,801 active permits in Wayne County, which has a population of 1,792,365 (2012)
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/m...rt_273948_7.pdf

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

Knee deep in the V.A.G.

disheveled posted:

Sweetheart, I grew up there, and you're an idiot.

It took me seconds to find the actual numbers on this, which are 79,801 active permits in Wayne County, which has a population of 1,792,365 (2012)
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/m...rt_273948_7.pdf

That is those who aren't paranoid enough to not get a permit, a lot of the more crazy second ammendment types think permits are just a way for the government to take your guns. Chances are the actual number is double or triple that, as far as those concealed carrying without a permit

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CroatianAlzheimers
Jun 15, 2009

I can't remember why I'm mad at you...


disheveled posted:

Sweetheart, I grew up there, and you're an idiot.

Dub's from the west side I think. GR or something. His opinions on what does and doesn't go on around here should be taken with a grain of salt.

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