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Part X: The Good Times In the next few posts I’m going to try and give general impressions from about a five year period of time. Progress with bipolar is rarely a straight line; instead, it is an oscillating trend. If you’re lucky, it trends upwards, but even then, there will be some big downswings that make you think there’s been no progress at all. I’ll start off by talking about the good times. When Joanne had an extended period of stability, things would often feel like they were back to normal. Joanne would get promoted in her jobs, have friends, organize the house, participate in hobbies, and just had everything - for the most part - together. She had hobbies. It wouldn’t be right to say Joanne was the same as she was before she was diagnosed during these times. For one thing, we’d grown older, and we’d experienced a lot more. Our give and take had become different. We’d seen more together, and been tested more. We’d hurt each other more. Her interests had changed a bit; she reverted to some hobbies she had when she was much younger. She didn’t interact with people in the same way anymore, in a way that’s hard to quantify. It’s been long and the image has been so distorted, however, that I can’t really even completely remember what the 20 year-old Joanna was like; I just know that it’s different. The state of our relationship at these times varied. These periods were rebuilding seasons from Joanne’s last breakdown. We would grow close again, and sometimes Joanne would thank me for staying with her and helping her. Sometimes we wouldn’t get to that point, and the stable period was overshadowed by the awkwardness of getting over the last breakdown. It might sound weird just celebrating things being normal, but for Joanne, it was a struggle to reach even that, and for me, it was difficult to watch. These periods of stability could last anywhere from several weeks to several months. However, every period of calmness, every good time, every bit of rebuilding trust, just set my expectations a bit higher for the next episode.
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Dec 12, 2013 17:43
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If you don't mind my asking - what kind of hobbies did she revert back to? Ones she enjoyed as a kid? Also, thank you for doing this. I can sort of relate, as my ex-fiancee was clinically depressed (though this wasn't the factor in our breakup). Going through mood swings and overall being down on life brings your partner down as well.
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Dec 12, 2013 18:35
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Chiming in to say thanks for showing me the other side. Recently diagnosed Bipolar and my partner is also watching this thread.
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Dec 12, 2013 18:47
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Thanks for posting, FunWithWombats. My husband has been in a position somewhat similar to yours (I had ECT for chronic depression before we were married and suffered a lot of permanent memory issues). I appreciate you sharing your story, though I realize it must have been incredibly difficult to get through. Good luck with everything- I'll be watching to see how the story ends.
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Dec 12, 2013 21:26
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I'd be really interested to hear a chapter about how you feel, and have coped with it... If I were you I would almost feel robbed. Robbed of the love that you and Joanne had when you first met. You married a different person to the one you're with now, how have you reconciled that? I hope my questioning isn't too aggressive, I'm in total admiration of your staying with her, and it I think it shows the strength of love. Still, I wonder how you have coped? Thanks for being so honest so far, it's a really informative thread and I wish you both all the best.
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Dec 12, 2013 21:57
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seiferguy posted:If you don't mind my asking - what kind of hobbies did she revert back to? Ones she enjoyed as a kid? Ted Ed Fred posted:I'd be really interested to hear a chapter about how you feel, and have coped with it... quote:If I were you I would almost feel robbed. Robbed of the love that you and Joanne had when you first met. You married a different person to the one you're with now, how have you reconciled that? Very Nice Eraser posted:Going back to my question about whether or not her personality changed, what if she wasn't his partner anymore? That is, we define ourselves so strongly by emotions and personality and other mental traits, I can't imagine having to decide whether to continue a marriage with someone who isn't in any real sense the person I married. Physically altered (car accident, vat of acid) fine, but mental? That's tough.
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Dec 13, 2013 19:57
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Thanks for writing this, it's fascinating to read as someone with no experience with BPD. And you're a really good storyteller. I don't have any questions but I am eager to hear the rest of the story.
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Dec 13, 2013 20:19
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This wasn't the post I had planned today, but this thought struck me recently as it's quite fitting with the times. Extra: Why I Hate Christmas It's often not easy to identify what sends a bipolar person into a manic or depressive state**. However, it's pretty well documented that some episodes / moods can be seasonal; sometimes a bipolar person will enter into a depressive state every spring, for example. Christmas time was always tough, and always put Joanne in some sort of state. I don't know if it was the season or the process of travelling or seeing her family or, most likely, some combination of all of these. In any case, Christmas sucked. But the biggest thing that made Christmases suck was Sharon. This was Sharon's holiday (well, this and every other holiday, her birthday, other people's birthdays, whenever). A couple months in advance, we'd tell Sharon "hey, we've spent the past five Christmases at your house. My mother almost never gets off for Christmas, but this year she managed to. Also, my family is paying for our plane tickets, so we're going to spend Christmas with them and head over the next day to your place." When we would first tell her - way in advance - Sharon would oblige. However, just like Santa, Sharon's wrath came every year, without fail. Typically the phone call wouldn't come from her. A few days before Christmas, we'd get a call from some member of her family. It would start off sounding reasonable and sincere: "Oh, what are your plans? Oh, you're spending Christmas with FunWithWombats' family...? Are you sure? You could, you know, come here, if you wanted. No? Well, keep it in mind, you're always welcome here..." Then the next day we'd get another call from a family member: "You guys really need to come for Christmas. Sharon is very upset. She's not eating. No, she won't talk to you, she's far too upset. She said Christmas doesn't matter if Joanne isn't there. She said you've ruined Christmas. The rest of the family is here, why aren't you? Don't you want the family to be together? Why are you doing this to us? FunWithWombat's family doesn't even care about Christmas that much, right? You can see them some other time. You're always spending with them. This isn't very Christian of you." My family would be peeved, of course, but they were aware of the wrath of Sharon just as we were, and didn't want to bring that down on us, even though it was wholly unreasonable. Some years they'd even start getting phone calls from Sharon's family, and they'd just get fed up with it. So every Christmas, we'd end up driving from my parent's place, yet again, to appease Sharon. But it didn't stop there. Every year, without fail, Sharon would do her absolute best to wine and dine Joanne. To make me look like to bad guy. To buy her anything she wanted. This was made exponentially worse by Joanne's manic stages, where she would basically want to buy everything she saw. Sharon fed into this and more, and promised Joanne she would buy her everything.... ... then came the big sell. Every year. Every. loving. Year. Joanne: Sharon asked me to stay here. She said she'll buy me a return ticket home sometime later.  Why would you do that? Because she knows [I lost my job / my job doesn't pay well / I need new clothes] and she said she could help us out for a bit. How long would you stay here? A few weeks, I guess. Sharon said she'd buy me a plane ticket back at some point. Don't you think you should [be looking for a job / go back to your job]? Well, Sharon said she'd help us out with money, if I stay here. You know we go through this every year, right? ...Proceed to me explaining why this is a terrible idea. Then Joanne would deliver the news to Sharon and Sharon would start giving me crap about not believing in family or how they're "just trying to help" etc. etc. which was basically our cue to leave. Joanne would fight with me for a bit, mostly repeating things Sharon was saying out of frustration. Codependency is a bitch. And like clockwork, every year, a few weeks after Christmas... Thank you so much for talking me out of staying with them, that made absolutely no sense!gently caress Christmas. ----- ** I don't think I talked about it much here, but Joanne was diagnosed as mixed mode AKA rapid cycling bipolar. For folks with this unfortunate condition, they can experience both the manic high and depressive lows at the same time or very rapidly in succession, often in the same day. It's a rarer and more difficult type of bipolar. FunWithWombats fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Dec 13, 2013 |
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Dec 13, 2013 20:33
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Where are you from? The wombats thing make you an Aussie? Anyways, gently caress Sharon. Her family is pretty disgusting as well.. they're a lot of the reason she is able to be this way at all.
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Dec 13, 2013 20:38
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People like you are people like me's ROCK. You, and the others in this thread who support their mentally ill family members, without you we probably couldn't survive. In fact, no, without you we definitely couldn't survive. People like you are a Godsend. Since I've been with my boyfriend (stable, no mental illness), I still go through my mental illness, but I know it would be 10x worse without him or someone like him. He is able to be so patient with me, and understanding. I just spent the weekend in the mental hospital and without his support... I just don't even know. This thread makes me so thankful.
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Dec 13, 2013 21:09
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FunWithWombats posted:But the biggest thing that made Christmases suck was Sharon. This was Sharon's holiday (well, this and every other holiday, her birthday, other people's birthdays, whenever). A couple months in advance, we'd tell Sharon "hey, we've spent the past five Christmases at your house. My mother almost never gets off for Christmas, but this year she managed to. Also, my family is paying for our plane tickets, so we're going to spend Christmas with them and head over the next day to your place." Please go further into "Sharon's holidays." How far did "Other people's birthdays" go?
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Dec 14, 2013 00:55
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Thank you for this thread. I'm a therapist working with people of varying degrees of mental illness, from minor adjustment disorders to full blown paranoid schizophrenia. In all cases, I find myself having to place a lot of responsibility and education on the plates of caretakers. I'm pretty good at helping the identified clients, but it's incredibly difficult to help the helpers, especially if their health insurance won't pay for "family without client" sessions. I'd very much like it if you could speak on what things helped you help your wife, what sort of resources you were able to find, what sort of care you, yourself, were able to find. It requires a superhuman amount of patience to cope with mentally ill people on a daily, personal basis. It's people like you, far more than people like me, who are able to really help those in need. In short: You are a pretty cool dude.
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Dec 14, 2013 04:05
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Does Sharon ever get hers or finally not get her way in a satisfying conclusion? Or is she still trolling about somewhere doing her normal thing? Sounds like an absolute terrible person to be around... and some of my family members. Family drama is the loving worst and I feel for you over having to deal with somebody like that. Might as well be a giant baby who needs attention.
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Dec 16, 2013 16:29
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Wonderful thread, you are a great person, and you are stronger than most people can ever claim to be. Thank you for the stories and your viewpoints. As someone with very severe bipolar, reading a lot of this made me feel tight in the chest. I've had plenty of relationships end because people became overwhelmed with my condition (understandable) and suffered a lot of heart-ache because it's definitely very difficult being in the position where many times people leave you and the only thing you can say to them as they turn their backs is "But I can't help it." and realize that excuse isn't anywhere close to being good enough. Many times when you're suffering with this disease it's hard to keep in mind that other people are suffering through it with you as they try to support and love you. It's was great getting to see that perspective fleshed out so well in your posts. Thanks.
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Dec 16, 2013 16:44
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Skeesix posted:Please go further into "Sharon's holidays." How far did "Other people's birthdays" go? But yeah, she felt like she had ownership of Joanne and her brother and sister's birthdays as well. I remember one year in particular where Joanne's friends had gotten Joanne and I tickets to an amusement park for Joanne's birthday. Our plan was to go to the amusement park and then join Sharon and the rest of the family for dinner. Sharon was outraged that we wouldn't want to spend the day with the family doing family things and pulled her typical temper tantrum / get the rest of the family involved / I'm not talking to you bullshit. We caved, because the positives of going to the amusement park didn't outweigh having to listen to Sharon bitch for a month. What Sharon hadn't told us is that she had to work on Joanne's birthday, a fact that didn't come out until after we'd cancelled our plans. When we confronted Sharon about this little detail, she said it was important to her that she see Joanne in the morning and as soon as she got back from work, and missing any time together would be just horrible. After all, what could possibly be more important than spending every moment you can with family? Chernobyl Princess posted:I'd very much like it if you could speak on what things helped you help your wife, what sort of resources you were able to find, what sort of care you, yourself, were able to find. It requires a superhuman amount of patience to cope with mentally ill people on a daily, personal basis. It's people like you, far more than people like me, who are able to really help those in need. In short: You are a pretty cool dude. onemanlan posted:Does Sharon ever get hers or finally not get her way in a satisfying conclusion? Or is she still trolling about somewhere doing her normal thing? Sounds like an absolute terrible person to be around... and some of my family members. Family drama is the loving worst and I feel for you over having to deal with somebody like that. Might as well be a giant baby who needs attention. Yes, family drama sucks, and it's often even worse when it's your partner's family. You never want to say "hey, your mom is toxic and you probably shouldn't be putting up with her," because you really don't want to be responsible for ruining a mother-daughter relationship. Joanne, at least, was far more cognizant of the Sharon situation than anyone else in the family.
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Dec 16, 2013 21:14
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Part XI: The Bad, Bad Times part 1 Around a year after our move, Joanne had grown in many ways, but began to slip into a hypomanic state. She would go out and not tell me where she was. She became very possessive about money, even though she was making very little of it. She didn’t want to go to sleep. She wasn’t very interested in spending time with me, and sex was rare and unexciting. She was often very angry with me. I was the one who wouldn’t let her stay out until 5 AM when she had to be at work at 7. I was the one who thought her drinking a lot wasn’t a great idea, given her medications. I was the one keeping her from buying all the clothes / trinkets / whatever she wanted. At this point she had her own car, and there were many nights where she did not tell me where she was or what she was doing, besides being “out with friends.” I was at my wits end of where to turn. Any conversation I tried to have with her turned into a fight and her storming off. I tried to get us into marriage counseling, but after one session the counselor told us that our problems were tied mostly to Joanne’s illness, and that had to be addressed first. Joanne saw her own therapist, and I’d met with her a few times and contacted her, and she was doing the best she could. I went to a therapist, and she basically told me there was zero reason to meet, since I seemed to be pretty rational about things, and really the problem was Joanne’s illness. Joanne’s doctor was trying new medications, but that was a glacially slow process. I’d only met Joanne’s new friends a handful of times, and most of them resented me because all they’d ever heard about me were Joanne’s complaints. It didn’t seem helpful to talk to Joanne’s family for obvious reasons. My family was far away and I wouldn’t have known what to ask of them anyway. Joanne wasn’t quite sick enough to go to the hospital, but not stable enough to maintain a functioning relationship. What the gently caress was I supposed to do? The issue was pressed when I discovered a series of intimate messages between her and a male friend. I felt bad for snooping, but the fact is, when you can’t get a straight response from your mentally ill wife about where she is or what’s she’s doing, there really aren’t many options. The texts indicated that they might not have had a physical relationship, yet, but certainly were thinking about it and were far more involved with each other than appropriate. I was still lost with how to deal with all this, but I knew there had to be a line and this certainly had to cross it. I confronted Joanne about the texts, and she outright denied their existence, shouted a bit, and left the house. To be continued…
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Dec 16, 2013 21:18
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Have you ever heard of the musical Next to Normal? Your story reminds me a bit of it. Definitely check out a synopsis, the music is great too. Thanks for sharing your story, it must be very difficult.
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Dec 16, 2013 22:18
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Good lord, on top of dealing with the mental disease she might be cheating on you. Though I guess this behavior could be expected. Still 
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Dec 17, 2013 01:03
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OP you are made of some hardy, compassionate stuff. After living with a bipolar person, I'm ashamed to say I expect I would have left very quickly in your position.
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Dec 17, 2013 02:22
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quote:
So, I'm diagnosed with bipolar disorder and previous doctors have mentioned that this is possible, but my current psychiatrist says it is not possible, even if you are a rapid cycler. I have never heard the term "mixed mode" before, so now I at least have something to bring up next time I see him when he tells me it's not possible to have, like, 5 hours of hypermania at a time. You mentioned you had no support, which I'm pretty sure my ex-husband had to deal with. What meager sources did you find? And I only read your posts, but if anyone else knows of any form of support for families of mentally ill people, I think it would be very helpful.
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Dec 17, 2013 04:29
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Bored posted:So, I'm diagnosed with bipolar disorder and previous doctors have mentioned that this is possible, but my current psychiatrist says it is not possible, even if you are a rapid cycler. I have never heard the term "mixed mode" before, so now I at least have something to bring up next time I see him when he tells me it's not possible to have, like, 5 hours of hypermania at a time. You can absolutely have mixed episodes. I have issues with agitated depression, where I have the energy you get when you're hypomanic or manic but it's all directed towards how loving awful everything is and how terrible I am as a person. It's so much worse than the regular, heavy depression that keeps me in bed all day. seiferguy posted:Good lord, on top of dealing with the mental disease she might be cheating on you. Though I guess this behavior could be expected. Still I'll admit that I did some terrible things when I was at my worst. My husband and I had separated, I was working 60-70 hours a week in a busy as gently caress kitchen, and I just let go. I kept sleeping with other people even after we said we wouldn't in counseling. I just wanted to destroy everything keeping me here and find some way to feel good just for right now or at least numb everything out and shut down my brain. I was honest with him about it and told him everything while he was driving me to the ER because I didn't know how to get help any other way. Thank god he was understanding and forgave me as long as I kept up with treatment, or I would probably not be here right now. I had abused myself and tried to tear down my life so much that I would more than likely have stopped waiting until tomorrow to kill myself like I've done for 15 years. OP, you're right in that there are not very many resources for the family and friends of people suffering from mental illness, so thank you for making this thread and being candid about your experiences. It's really hard being sick and knowing that people will throw you away because it's too much to deal with, especially with some of the horrible things people say about mental illness when they don't know who's listening. It just makes it that much harder to get better or even to want to get better, and I think more resources for people like you would help take some of the burden away and make it easier for people like me or Joanne to feel secure in our relationships and support networks.
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Dec 17, 2013 04:56
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Chiming in about "mixed episodes", I was diagnosed with them and they happened more often than my hypomania did. Its a horrid mix of feelings of worthlessness, suicidal ideation, and that manic impulsive behavior. Yeah, it's not fun at all. Thankfully with my meds I only have a period of a few days every other month or so where I feel pretty down, but still functional thankfully.
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Dec 17, 2013 05:20
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ok.. ok.. things were bad enough that it was hard for you to stick by her.. but that's when she was on your side. Now the open betrayal of the cheating (it's emotional cheating, they don't need to screw for it to be hosed up.. you carried her through this poo poo and this is how she is repaying you) and her bullshit attitude is completely unacceptable. To stick by your wife when she is sick is one thing.. to be openly poo poo on is another. Yes, she is sick and perhaps not in full control of what she is doing (although by now it's sounding like she has enough control to build a little army against you).. but there has to be a line in the sand and that line, I think, is when we're not a team anymore. This is how Sharon got like she did, noone stood up to her and said enough is enough and you either change this behavior or I'm outa here. I really feel for you OP and to be treated like this after all of that.. makes me really angry. edit: another point, after I've calmed a bit because goddamit, is Joanne may never understand this but the relationship between you two has changed. Just the same way your parents always still see you as a child in some respect because they wiped your rear end at one point, you could never see Joanne in the same way as when you got married. That doesn't mean it's hosed and there is nothing of value left in the relationship, but it does mean if Joanne now feels she is independent and can make her own decisions and you're just being a drag and holding her back it's because you're still relating to a time where she couldn't make her own decisions. It will take time to reestablish the trust, that trust being you just seeing Joanne as a functioning adult. This is obviously demeaning for Joanne, particularly if whatever meds she is on now makes her feel tickky-boo, but she should have the best frame of reference to just how bad it got there (or perhaps not, perhaps she is so broken she can't compute this). I know this story isn't over, but if Joanne can't see what I'm saying here and let the relationship between you and her heal properly - there is no way this can continue. I'm really sorry for you then, mate, because all of this incredible effort on your side still ended up with losing the one you love. Tony Montana fucked around with this message at 14:07 on Dec 17, 2013 |
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Dec 17, 2013 13:59
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I'm genuinely kinda shocked by the no support for partners/carers thing. In the UK you can get carers allowance for help with the financial side of things and there are loads for support groups. I always see posters and leaflets in the doctors surgery and CMHT office about help for families. Are there not even any community led support groups where you are?
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Dec 17, 2013 14:52
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rocketpig posted:I'm genuinely kinda shocked by the no support for partners/carers thing. In the UK you can get carers allowance for help with the financial side of things and there are loads for support groups. I always see posters and leaflets in the doctors surgery and CMHT office about help for families. Are there not even any community led support groups where you are? Problematically, not only are there few resources, but also advocacy groups for disabled persons tend to actively oppose any that crop up, claiming that such groups demonize or stigmatize mentally ill persons, and in the case of particularly poorly run advocacy groups, claiming that it is Not Okay to focus on the healthy partner because it takes away from the disabled partner. Yes this is ridiculous. It's also not all groups. DBSA as a whole tends to be better than this, for example. But there is a large undercurrent that says that any focus on the healthy partner is somehow robbing the sick partner of their credit. It's also claimed that support groups for healthy partners are actually just hate organizations for people to complain about the mentally ill. Not unsurprisingly, these views tend to be advanced not by mentally ill people but by their misguided "advocates." See the Jani Foundation's Facebook for a great example, unless they've changed due to public pressure, or the people behind Bipolar Nation Radio. Sadly, but perhaps not surprisingly, advocacy often becomes more about the advocate and their agendas than about the needs of human beings.
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Dec 17, 2013 15:06
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FunWithWombats posted:Pretty much she expected us to be at her place for every single holiday, and to not do so was an affront to God / the family / Sharon. I don't want to make light of anything and you're awesome but I love this so much. It's so loving insane, there's a real horror novel/movie villain here. rocketpig posted:I'm genuinely kinda shocked by the no support for partners/carers thing. In the UK you can get carers allowance for help with the financial side of things and there are loads for support groups. I always see posters and leaflets in the doctors surgery and CMHT office about help for families. Are there not even any community led support groups where you are? Working in a UK council IT support role where I had to undo social workers mistakes I found that, yes, carers can and often have equal sized profiles and resources allocated to them as the actual clients themselves. If a child is involved it can be over £100,000. Most of these are physical problems or child welfare rather than mental though.
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Dec 17, 2013 15:06
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Paramemetic posted:Yes this is ridiculous. This is completely ridiculous and the second time today coming to this thread has pissed me off.
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Dec 17, 2013 16:42
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Great thread, dude. Truly excellent. I'm enthralled. The worst thing about people with Borderline Personality Disorder is that they're SO GODDAMN HARD TO LOVE. My first instinct when I meet a girl who seems to behave this way is to loving cut and run. They've got psychological struggles - like we all do. I do. Major depressive, general and social anxiety, and I'm a recovering drug addict ( sometimes I'm secretly jealous of you guys with bipolar because at least SOMETIMES you're happy  ) Thankfully my meds work very well, and I'm working a 12-step program, which is awesome.But if someone you love is Borderline... Or someone your trying to love, what do you do? Such a hard goddamn dichotomy where you care about the person and you see that they've got these issues and realize them for what they are, but everything they do drives you away. And you can only let it take so much of yourself before it's in your best interest to look out for number 1. When you guys keep saying "Man, I hope Sharon gets her's", all I keep thinking is that chick needs HELP, not revenge. But then, she's a huge bitch that I hope I never meet. So, she's a huge bitch that needs help, just not from me. It makes me think of that Mitch Hedburg joke "Alcoholism is the only disease you can get yelled at for having." What Sharon could use is an intervention. If only that we're possible... I keep hearing people say "Some people with Borderline Personality Disorder can recover with therapy", is the success rate really that bad? Why? Does anyone here know a person with Borderline that HAS gotten better? What a bummer that disorder is.
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Dec 17, 2013 17:18
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Tony Montana posted:ok.. ok.. things were bad enough that it was hard for you to stick by her.. but that's when she was on your side. Now the open betrayal of the cheating (it's emotional cheating, they don't need to screw for it to be hosed up.. you carried her through this poo poo and this is how she is repaying you) and her bullshit attitude is completely unacceptable. My MILs doctor basically told my FIL that my MIL would indiscriminately cheat on him thanks to bipolar, which was bullshit. BP folks might be more outgoing when they are manic but it doesn't throw all their morals out the window. They are still at their core the same people. When you've known someone for a long time, you can usually tell what the disease is vs what their own normal personality is. My dad for example - would beat me senseless at the drop of a hat when he was manic. I still hate him sometimes for alot of reasons, like not consistently staying on his meds, but I do realize that it wasn't totally him. He is also extremely sorry because us kids have all but abandoned him because he would never stick to a treatment. Also - dealing with this poo poo in America blows. There aren't any publicized support groups. Mental illness is a giant stigma here in such a lovely way that no one will ever talk to each other about it. Nowadays you can get people to admit to adhd, add, and depression but schizophrenia and bipolar are still untouchables. I grew up in TN and it was awful. Places that still cling to god will tell you that its just the devils curse and that "yall need to get back into church"
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Dec 17, 2013 17:29
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The Scientist posted:The worst thing about people with Borderline Personality Disorder is that they're SO GODDAMN HARD TO LOVE. My first instinct when I meet a girl who seems to behave this way is to loving cut and run. They've got psychological struggles - like we all do. I do. Major depressive, general and social anxiety, and I'm a recovering drug addict ( sometimes I'm secretly jealous of you guys with bipolar because at least SOMETIMES you're happy bipolar isn't borderline and mania isn't happiness
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Dec 17, 2013 17:46
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Even if it's not bullshit, it's then insufferable. You can't make long term plans with someone that can drop their morals at any point. It doesn't matter if it's the BP or not, you just can't be around someone like that because it's going to damage you. Like your Dad. At the end of the day if it's his BP or he's just a dick, him belting the poo poo out of you just isn't on. It doesn't matter the cause, the actions are not something you can live with. That goes for Joanne leaning on the OP in all these ways through her hard times and then finding another guy to be an emotional sounding board behind his back. It's loving terrible for the OP because he'd have to think.. what did I do this all for? That behavior is simply unacceptable. If meds can stop it, perhaps there is a chance but as you'd well know, once someone has beat the poo poo out of you, or cheated on you - often that trust really can never be fully rebuilt.
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Dec 17, 2013 17:50
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Thank you for the thread, it is really interesting to read. My husbands sister has just been diagnosed as Bipolar. She was just an average person with a long term boyfriend and a couple of kids until she hit 30 and then since then her life (and the whole families) has been completely insane. The stuff she's done and the way the different members of the family tried to deal with it has pretty much destroyed my husbands relationship with most of them and now she's been diagnosed I don't think he feels like he can forget all the stuff she's put them all through. We've called social work a few times to try and protect the children from her and the various abusive drug dealing boyfriends she's had in the last few years and hopefully now there's a diagnosis they can at least work on getting her into a position where she can provide more stability for them. It worries me a bit though, all the women on his side of the family have some kind of mental illness or another (with a lot of them having been commited at various points) and we've just had a daughter.
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Dec 17, 2013 18:03
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hookerbot 5000 posted:It worries me a bit though, all the women on his side of the family have some kind of mental illness or another (with a lot of them having been commited at various points) and we've just had a daughter. Given the mental illness on both sides of mine and my husbands family we are seriously thinking about never having kids - however there have been some studies on fish oil / omega 3 fatty acids that have shown they can reduce the presence of mental illness. I'd look into it some more if you think she'd be a genetically unlucky individual. http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/fish-oil/NS_patient-fishoil/DSECTION=evidence (It shows promise for depression at a minimum) http://umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/supplement/omega3-fatty-acids - this link has a bit more detail silicone thrills fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Dec 17, 2013 |
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Dec 17, 2013 18:10
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AnonymousNarcotics posted:Have you ever heard of the musical Next to Normal? Your story reminds me a bit of it. Definitely check out a synopsis, the music is great too. Thanks for sharing your story, it must be very difficult. seiferguy posted:Good lord, on top of dealing with the mental disease she might be cheating on you. Though I guess this behavior could be expected. Still Bored posted:So, I'm diagnosed with bipolar disorder and previous doctors have mentioned that this is possible, but my current psychiatrist says it is not possible, even if you are a rapid cycler. I have never heard the term "mixed mode" before, so now I at least have something to bring up next time I see him when he tells me it's not possible to have, like, 5 hours of hypermania at a time. quote:You mentioned you had no support, which I'm pretty sure my ex-husband had to deal with. What meager sources did you find? And I only read your posts, but if anyone else knows of any form of support for families of mentally ill people, I think it would be very helpful. rocketpig posted:I'm genuinely kinda shocked by the no support for partners/carers thing. In the UK you can get carers allowance for help with the financial side of things and there are loads for support groups. I always see posters and leaflets in the doctors surgery and CMHT office about help for families. Are there not even any community led support groups where you are? Szmitten posted:I don't want to make light of anything and you're awesome but I love this so much. It's so loving insane, there's a real horror novel/movie villain here. The Scientist posted:( sometimes I'm secretly jealous of you guys with bipolar because at least SOMETIMES you're happy Of course, many BP patients are very treatable and totally functional and fine. quote:I keep hearing people say "Some people with Borderline Personality Disorder can recover with therapy", is the success rate really that bad? Why? Does anyone here know a person with Borderline that HAS gotten better? What a bummer that disorder is. Tigntink posted:My MILs doctor basically told my FIL that my MIL would indiscriminately cheat on him thanks to bipolar, which was bullshit. BP folks might be more outgoing when they are manic but it doesn't throw all their morals out the window. They are still at their core the same people. Tony Montana posted:Even if it's not bullshit, it's then insufferable. You can't make long term plans with someone that can drop their morals at any point. It doesn't matter if it's the BP or not, you just can't be around someone like that because it's going to damage you.
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Dec 17, 2013 18:20
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Op you are a hell of a guy if you don't mind me saying. I'd have ejected from this loving madness YEARS prior.
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Dec 17, 2013 18:25
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Part XI: The Bad, Bad Times part 2 A couple days later, Joanne returned home, in tears. Not as the combative, resentful, lying Joanne I’d seen the previous months, but as the Joanne I remembered. She told me she had slept with this man, and gave me the details. She told me how horrible she felt about it and how she had treated me. She said she knew she wasn’t acting like herself, and had no idea how she could even do such a thing. She was horrified by her own actions. A poster in here gave basically the exact same account as Joanne: Skinny King Pimp posted:I kept sleeping with other people even after we said we wouldn't in counseling. I just wanted to destroy everything keeping me here and find some way to feel good just for right now or at least numb everything out and shut down my brain. I’m not sure how you, the reader, will respond to this writing. I think we’ve all heard the stories of the lying / cheating partners who give half-sincere apologies and keep on doing what they’re doing. The naïve 20-year-old groom I had once been had declared he would never stay with someone who cheated on him. But that was long before I saw someone change into an entirely other person before my eyes. Long before I’d seen someone with hallucinations or lose her entire memory or any of the other things I’ve talked about here. Seeing her so broken down at that point crushed my heart. I chose to forgive her, knowing, of course, that it wasn’t as simple as just saying “it’s okay.” The truth is, in the grand scheme of things, some night of cheating was really just an inconsequential blip. What I was really more concerned with was getting back the rest of Joanne. After that, it was like some sort of switch had been flipped. It was as though hitting that bottom was a wake-up call to her mind and to her old self. We started communicating much better, connecting with each other, doing things together, and being honest with each other. It was the most normal I’d seen Joanne in a long time. Of course, I wish I could just say “Happily Ever After” at this point… but as I’ve mentioned, mental illness is not a straight line. I wish I could say this was the only time Joanne ever cheated, or the last time she had a major breakdown, but I can’t. The next five years saw progress, but had an equivalent share of low, low points. Some highlights involve drunk driving, flying to other states to have affairs, drugs, a dash of physical abuse, hoarding money while we were going into debt… but I don’t want to make this into just a huge list of horrible things people do when they’re sick. Each bad phase was broken up by an ever-improving good phase, but it’s impossible for one to make up for the other. At this point you’re probably wondering why I stayed, what kept me going, and what it was like on my side. That’ll be my next post.
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Dec 17, 2013 18:25
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hookerbot 5000 posted:It worries me a bit though, all the women on his side of the family have some kind of mental illness or another (with a lot of them having been commited at various points) and we've just had a daughter. After Joanne was sick, we talked about children many times, but pretty much decided there was no way we could reasonably have natural kids. Not only would it require loving with Joanne's meds, but the risk of more mental illness seemed too high (although there's not any in my family). Of course, raising kids when your BP is no walk in the park either, and Joanne certainly felt like this was an opportunity that was taken from her. FunWithWombats fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Dec 17, 2013 |
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Dec 17, 2013 18:33
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FunWithWombats posted:I was the enemy, and in Joanne's mind, the surefire way out was to sleep with someone else. This might not make a lot of sense to you, why not just leave? Why not just tell me that was that? All that can be said is it made sense to Joanne at the time. I really doubt it was actually about leaving you. In my case, it was purely about making everyone hate me so that I could feel justified in my self-hatred and to isolate myself to the point of either suicide or just really dangerous behavior without caring if I lived or died. It was really subconsciously manipulative, and god knows I had all kinds of justifications in my head, but none of them make any sense to me now and I don't even know why I came up with them. Thankfully, I am a lot more responsive to medication and a lot less ill than Joanne was, so I'm doing much, much better even though it's only been a little less than two years since I was hospitalized.
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Dec 17, 2013 19:14
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FunWithWombats posted:My understanding (although I'm no expert on the subject) is that, say, 15 years ago, it was pretty much accepted that you can't treat borderline at all. Nowadays, they say sometimes things can improve with therapy, but that's a far cry from saying someone can get back to normal. If there are some psych folks in the thread, perhaps they can comment more. I can chime in a little bit as a psychology person. There has been an evolution in treatment in general, which makes sense if we keep in mind that clinical psychology as a real field is only barely more than a decade old, compared to other fields of medicine. To get a straight answer, we have to look at borderline personality as our understanding of it has changed, because the ability to treat it has largely evolved with our understanding of what "it" is. Originally, borderline personality disorder was a psychoanalytic diagnosis, as were all of the personality disorders. It was a diagnosis described by a fundamental personality orientation based on a reliance on the primitive ego defense called "splitting." In splitting, the ego fails to integrate the concept that a thing can, at the same time, possess both good and bad qualities. This applies to the self, in the form of a rejection of all bad qualities and an acceptance of all good qualities, but in the defense mechanism manifestation, it applies to others. Without getting into the origin theories and such, the bottom line is that an individual with borderline personality disorder cannot accept that a person might have both good and bad qualities. Either an individual is all good, and a hero, a savior, a white knight, and Jesus all wrapped up into one, or they are all bad and they make the Japanese rape of Nanking seem like a carnival by comparison. This generally manifests in extremes of both attitude and behavior towards different people. This is why the description of Sharon seems consistent, though to be honest personality disorders are the most difficult to diagnose, and especially based on the say-so of others, simply because we generally emphasize the most obvious characteristics of a person and ignore the tempering aspects. Anyways, in my experience with borderline patients, I have had patients think I am Literally The Best Staff because I lent them a pencil, and then try to stab me with that same pencil because I am Literally The Worst Staff since I wouldn't give them double snack. The attitude becomes all pervasive, and their minds work overtime to rationalize the person's entire history into the present orientation. When I was The Best Person, I was giving them a pencil out of kindness, and earlier consequences I'd enforced had been because I care. As The Worst Person, I was giving them a pencil because I wanted them to hurt themselves with it, and earlier consequences were because I hate them, which I proved by not breaking rules for them right now. This could change just generally based on their disposition, but the important and critical part is that they were employing an ego defense largely intended to make up for their own failure to integrate and own positive and negative qualities of themselves as well as others. In the psychoanalytic dynamic, personality disorders are very treatable, but very difficult, because while all disorder is behavioral and all disorder has some sort of cause, personality disorders are complete personality orientations. Everyone uses splitting to some extent if they are pushed far enough, as it's an early defense that takes little emotional energy. Most people, however, grow out of using it primarily at a young age and develop better tools. A borderline person does not, and it is their primary defense, and their entire personality is oriented around its use. Incidentally, his is also what would be the distinction in psychoanalytic psychology between "depression" and "depressive personality." So in the older models, and among practitioners still using a psychodynamic orientation, a personality disorder is recognized as treatable. But that is old science, that is largely out of favor, for better or for worse, because it is not easily quantified or fit into the medical model of psychiatry that we have moved towards. With DSM-III and DSM-IV, this personality disorder became a checklist of symptoms. The checklist of symptoms approach intentionally stripped out all the underlying theory, because it was seen as irrelevant. The psychiatric community intentionally disposed of all regard for the disposition of the mind in favor of easily checklisted behavioral and observable data points for diagnosis, because of an attempt (misguided in my opinion) to make psychiatry conform to the rest of the medical field. Under this paradigm, personality disorders became regarded as largely untreatable. The party line was that personality disorders were so deeply rooted in the personality, which is seen as largely crystalline in adulthood, that the only thing we can do is try to convince a person to stop utilizing the maladaptive behaviors, and cover up any emotional deficits with medication. This is where we were 15 years ago, and have been until the early 2010s. In the late 80s and early 90s, along with and to a degree pushing the "evidence based medicine" mantra, came cognitive behavioral therapy. This was a sort of love-at-first-sight to medical minded physicians, because it allowed to the administration of therapy in a rote, quantifiable, easily objectifiable manner. Every single patient can fill out an inventory, do some homework, and learn that if they change their mental behaviors, they will be better. CBT developed as a sort of child of rational emotive behavioral therapy, which advocated a sort of stoic philosophy and taught people to learn to temper their reactions and how they let the world affect them. Albert Ellis, who developed REBT, was fond of a saying by the stoic philosopher Epictetus, that "it is not things that bother us, but the view we take of them." CBT took this a step further, saying that because psychological disorder was merely behavioral manifestations, if we change the behaviors, there is no disorder. Under CBT, a personality disorder became very difficult to treat because a personality orientation based on a certain mental behavior is not going to be able to simply do some homework assignments and learn to not be borderline, the way a mild-moderate case of depression might be able to simply retrain themselves to look at the bright side. (As an aside, CBT has a horrific recidivism rate, and most people who are "successful" with CBT end up back in therapy in less than a year. Still, the evidence based crowd counts anything better than 6 months as a success in most studies, so the evidence strongly supports it). Anyways, this wasn't working very well. But, very recently, a new approach to this has come up called Dialectical Behavioral Therapy. DBT is a sort of combination approach of utilizing the behavioral scripts of CBT, but also focusing on mindfulness and interpersonal interactions. It borrows from Buddhist meditation practices, CBT, and a direct approach to analyzing interpersonal relations and clearly evaluating the actual intents behind behaviors. This approach is perhaps better than both the raw psychoanalytic approach of addressing the causes, and the mechanical cognitive-behavioral approach of addressing only the behavior, because it now addresses behaviors based on their motivations and intents, rather than focusing on the behavior as "wrong" and seeking to correct it regardless of reason. CBT does not care why a person does Thing, DBT only cares about making the person mindful of why, and lets them fix it through awareness of what they are actually trying to accomplish and demonstrating better tools to accomplish it. So, today when asked if borderline personality is treatable, the answer is very much Yes. It is treatable and it has a good staying power if the principles of DBT are internalized, which is easier to accomplish in teenagers and younger adults with still malleable mental scripts. The psychoanalytic approach can also plug in here, as a way of helping patients understand their motivations. Medication is used only as necessary to regulate emotion until the person has developed the emotional regulation skills that DBT uses, and the goal is to be functional without medication. So that's way too many words on why it used to be treatable, then everyone was of the mind it wasn't treatable, and now, by recognizing that maybe "all science all the time" is too strict an approach to working with minds, we're back to a place where it's probably more treatable than ever before.
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Dec 17, 2013 19:19
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Paramemetic posted:
That sounds very interesting. I was diagnosed with depression and I'm on zoloft, but this description of symptoms sounds a lot like what I'm feeling... Mental health field in my lovely country seems way behind times though, so I have no idea where I could look for this DBT.
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Dec 17, 2013 19:41
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about BPD