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ladyboy pancake
Jan 3, 2008

"Please let this be a normal field trip?"



there's over 6,000 languages used in the world and all of them are amazing. That's over 6,000 different ways to say you're hungry, to ask someone if they're okay, to ruminate on the nature of existence, or find out where you're allowed to poop.

language is super versatile. It can be communicated through the throat, the hands, or written symbols and can be perceived with the ears, eyes, or fingers. Presumably, smell-based language would be possible but we don't have that but it would probably be cool.

Language is the lodestone of culture. Where there's language there's civilization.

Language discussion thread.

My favorite languages are Hungarian, Japanese, American Sign Language, and English. What's yours?

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Kheldragar
Jul 13, 2013

Homestuckavatar.txt


中文是有趣的語言

Ask me about Japanese and I'll give you my horrible jaded opinions on it.




Official theme: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWKYpy__lfA

Bureaus Watts
May 28, 2013

oh god please make it stop



im super autistic and can't talk to people in real life so i am not a fan of language but good thread i guess??

18 Character Limit
Apr 6, 2007

Screw you, Abed;
I can fix this!


Kheldragar posted:

中文是有趣的語言

ladyboy pancake
Jan 3, 2008

"Please let this be a normal field trip?"



but Bureaus Watts, don't you see you jusut USED language! Language allowed you to communicate the fact that you don't communicate!

THE POWER WAS INSIDE YOU ALL ALONG!!

Bloodfart McCoy
Jul 20, 2007

We have such sights
to show you.
Come with us.
Taste our pleasures!


I never really got the point of putting a lot of effort into studying a foreign language when any teenager native to it will be able to speak it better than you anyway.

Bureaus Watts
May 28, 2013

oh god please make it stop



Rhinoceraptor posted:

but Bureaus Watts, don't you see you jusut USED language! Language allowed you to communicate the fact that you don't communicate!

THE POWER WAS INSIDE YOU ALL ALONG!!

oh ok thanks

unlimited shrimp
Aug 30, 2008

I'm so lean I can't even blink.

ok so if say in german there is a word for an emotion that doesnt have an English equivalent


does that mean i cant feel taht emotion???

18 Character Limit
Apr 6, 2007

Screw you, Abed;
I can fix this!


Can't we just use military and economic power to force our language on others?

The Brown Menace
Dec 24, 2010

Now comes in all colors.


bathroom sounds posted:

ok so if say in german there is a word for an emotion that doesnt have an English equivalent


does that mean i cant feel taht emotion???

joke's on you, germans have no emotions

Deutsch Nozzle
Mar 29, 2008

#1 Macklemore fan


馬鹿外人だ

ladyboy pancake
Jan 3, 2008

"Please let this be a normal field trip?"



bathroom sounds posted:

ok so if say in german there is a word for an emotion that doesnt have an English equivalent


does that mean i cant feel taht emotion???

that's' where LOANWORDS come in!


loanwords are , you take a word for a concept that your culture never made a word for from a culture whose language does have it, and then you start using it! Eventually it might even change meaning or pronunciation and become its own new word!

Tuxedo Gin
May 20, 2003

Classy.

bathroom sounds posted:

ok so if say in german there is a word for an emotion that doesnt have an English equivalent


does that mean i cant feel taht emotion???

sapir-whorf

Kheldragar
Jul 13, 2013

Homestuckavatar.txt


Deutsch Nozzle posted:

馬鹿外人だ

Funfact: な is 連体形 for だ meaning that those pseudo-adjectives which you attach な to are basically still {Description + head noun} structure. So 静かな人 is literally "Person that is quiet" rather than quiet person.




Official theme: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWKYpy__lfA

ladyboy pancake
Jan 3, 2008

"Please let this be a normal field trip?"



Is there a way to simply say "quiet person" in Japanese or is that not considered grammatical?

Kheldragar
Jul 13, 2013

Homestuckavatar.txt


Rhinoceraptor posted:

Is there a way to simply say "quiet person" in Japanese or is that not considered grammatical?

Quiet isn't an adjective, so no. I mean, it's 100% literally "Quiet is person", so yeah...




Official theme: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWKYpy__lfA

Smarmy Coworker
May 10, 2008

hellfire blast~



bathroom sounds posted:

ok so if say in german there is a word for an emotion that doesnt have an English equivalent


does that mean i cant feel taht emotion???

nah you just use that word, much like all the french words we steal

a hole-y ghost
May 10, 2010



Kheldragar posted:

So 静かな人 is literally "Person that is quiet" rather than quiet person.
can you diagram the words and affixes in this with the grammatical terms I still don't understand

rand
Apr 25, 2003


how do you say Ixcoin in espańol?

ladyboy pancake
Jan 3, 2008

"Please let this be a normal field trip?"



I'm gonna talk about reduplication for a minute

reduplication is when you say a word twice to change the meaning. It's sort of like how knocking once means yes but knocking twice means no.

reduplication doesn't appear too often in English, but if you were ever a teenager and someone asked you if you liked them or if you like liked them, that's a good example.

There's also the "_____er and _____er" form of reduplication which we use to describe that something is changing somehow and continues to change over time As Wikipedia puts it:

Wikipedia posted:

For example, the temporal meaning of "The frug seemed wuggier and wuggier" is clear: Despite not knowing what a frug is or what wugginess is, we know that the apparent wugginess of the frug was increasing over time, as indicated by the reduplication of the comparative "wuggier".

Reduplication.

Language.

Bolian Blues
Nov 3, 2008


another example of reduplication in english is the word craycray

also an example of elision

a hole-y ghost
May 10, 2010



Rhinoceraptor posted:

reduplication doesn't appear too often in English, but if you were ever a teenager and someone asked you if you liked them or if you like liked them, that's a good example.
English is lovely for reduplication examples (there aren't many clean ones) but here's a simple non english example from Indonesian:

anak ku: my child

anak anak ku: my children

VendaGoat
Nov 1, 2005

When you desperately need a goat, right this moment.


Rhinoceraptor posted:

Presumably, smell-based language would be possible but we don't have that but it would probably be cool.

I could make an argument for Body Odor, Farting, chewing gum, using a breathe mint, breathe spray and everything for you.


You can show respect for a person by being in the most presentable fashion, you believe they deserve. IE, Social Convention would dictate that you should be well dressed based on the cultural norms of the society. Suit and tie for men, Dress ware for women, and, I HOPE, both sexes would brush their teeth and have a breath mint before hand.

You can show contempt for a person. Ever hear of an angry ex using rotten seafood, to stink up an ex's place? I believe we would all interrupt that, to varying degrees, as a condemnation.

How about people who deliberately FART in confined spaces?


Yes, I believe you can communicate, in some fashion, through smells.

Edit: I just thought of something. Dutch Ovening your wife; Smells like love!

VendaGoat fucked around with this message at Dec 8, 2013 around 18:54

ladyboy pancake
Jan 3, 2008

"Please let this be a normal field trip?"



oh communication through smells is possible, absolutely, and it happens all the time.

There are some particular rules about what is classified as a language though. Smells as we use them are mostly about conveying emotions and social signals. A Language has to be able to describe abstract concepts, distinguish between temporal tense, the past a present and future, and discuss itself. It would take a lot of work to communicate a thesis on philosophy through smells alone.

MODS CURE JOKES
Nov 11, 2009

OFFICIAL SAS 90s REMEMBERER


i just ripped a massive fart, gbs.

you know what that means?

Bold Robot
Jan 6, 2009

Be brave.


I was wondering last night, how many languages other than English have the "th" sound? It's totally normal for us but I feel like it's pretty rare worldwide. Off the top of my head maybe some of the Scandinavian languages have it, and Spanish but only when they do their lisp thing?

ANIME MONSTROSITY
Jun 1, 2012
Probation
Can't post for 6 hours!


Bold Robot posted:

I was wondering last night, how many languages other than English have the "th" sound? It's totally normal for us but I feel like it's pretty rare worldwide. Off the top of my head maybe some of the Scandinavian languages have it, and Spanish but only when they do their lisp thing?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_dental_fricative

e: no wait not a lot but five

Sabel
Aug 11, 2004

Gay married to gay communism


Speak English.

Bold Robot
Jan 6, 2009

Be brave.



Interesting. Most of these seem like poo poo tier languages though. Kickapoo? Shark Bay? Lorediakarkar?

skull guy
Nov 22, 2007

by T. Finninho


is there anyone who speaks constructed languages like esperanto or lojban? i've though about learning one a couple of times then laughed at myself and went back to studying a real language

edit: also what turned me off was the the people who speak it look exactly how you'd think http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Lojban

skull guy fucked around with this message at Dec 8, 2013 around 19:14

a hole-y ghost
May 10, 2010



skull guy posted:

is there anyone who speaks constructed languages like esperanto or lojban? i've though about learning one a couple of times than laughed at myself and went back to studying a real language

http://forums.somethingawful.com/sh...66&pagenumber=1

ANIME MONSTROSITY
Jun 1, 2012
Probation
Can't post for 6 hours!


Bold Robot posted:

Interesting. Most of these seem like poo poo tier languages though. Kickapoo? Shark Bay? Lorediakarkar?

well sorry that not all languages are English.

Bold Robot
Jan 6, 2009

Be brave.


TINA TURNER posted:

well sorry that not all languages are English.

Don't apologize, it was G-d's fault from when he cast down the tower of Babel and changed English into Spanish, German, Chinese, etc.

ladyboy pancake
Jan 3, 2008

"Please let this be a normal field trip?"



all languages are beautiful

minden nyelv szép.

VendaGoat
Nov 1, 2005

When you desperately need a goat, right this moment.


Rhinoceraptor posted:

oh communication through smells is possible, absolutely, and it happens all the time.

There are some particular rules about what is classified as a language though. Smells as we use them are mostly about conveying emotions and social signals. A Language has to be able to describe abstract concepts, distinguish between temporal tense, the past a present and future, and discuss itself. It would take a lot of work to communicate a thesis on philosophy through smells alone.

Agreed. Lump it under a type of Body Language then.

Because the only way I can imagine, communicating such an abstract concept as a philosophy paper, through smell, is very specific and highly unlikely. I'm not going to argue it, I just give it to you as a postulate.

Two people that had shared experiences, with a strong emotional bond, could use a smell to trigger a shared memory, thus conveying a set of circumstances that happened in the past.

Two "spies" could be trained to pass information through complex smells.

It's possible, it's not at all probable.

a hole-y ghost
May 10, 2010



Rhinoceraptor posted:

all languages are beautiful

minden nyelv szép.
Except Hungarian.

ANIME MONSTROSITY
Jun 1, 2012
Probation
Can't post for 6 hours!


VendaGoat posted:

Agreed. Lump it under a type of Body Language then.

Because the only way I can imagine, communicating such an abstract concept as a philosophy paper, through smell, is very specific and highly unlikely. I'm not going to argue it, I just give it to you as a postulate.

Two people that had shared experiences, with a strong emotional bond, could use a smell to trigger a shared memory, thus conveying a set of circumstances that happened in the past.

Two "spies" could be trained to pass information through complex smells.

It's possible, it's not at all probable.

I'm pretty sure I know how philosophy papers smell.





























Kheldragar
Jul 13, 2013

Homestuckavatar.txt


Cooler than what posted:

can you diagram the words and affixes in this with the grammatical terms I still don't understand

MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF AUTISM AHEAD

Well, for one 連体形 stands for attributive form and it's basically anything that is attributed to a noun or what have you. These include verbs, adjectives, and other nouns; modern Japanese, though, doesn't really use 連体形 in anything except for the one な standing in for だ that I explained earlier. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, though. For example, the 連体形 for an adjective is just changing the い to き from what I've seen. (I don't know what it is for verbs since it appears to be rare.) Going back to it being attributive, you can see the difference in something like this, "You all are beloved - あなた達が愛しい" to "Beloved you all - 愛しきあなた達" (Which doesn't translate well in English, but I think you can see my point.) But you're hardly going to hear 連体形 in adjectives like that outside of a few words that I think just add "style" to your sentence.

But wait, Kheldragar, "Why did you use が in that first example instead of は? And, hell, が doesn't even stand for "is" in the first place! だ・です・である and forms do!" Well I'm glad you asked that question in the first place! The first thing that everyone's told but that no one understands is that が -> subject は -> topic. But what the gently caress does that even mean in the first place? Well, first, you'd need to go through examples where が has completely different uses to は in the first place. The first has to do with just linking two sentances together; for example "日本語に飽きてしまったが勉強するのに絶望した!" The が here just links them together; nothing special. Besides this, there's the は that just tells what your sentence is about - the は which gives it an overarching theme. That's what it's meant by "topic".

So, for yet another example, "今日は映画館に行く" would mean something like "Today, (I'll/you'll/she'll/we'll etc.) go to the movie theatre." If you want to break it down a bit, "今日は..." (Okay, what about today?) "映画館に行く" (Oh! Go to the movie theatre." If you ever see a Xは, try thinking "Okay, what about X?" There's also the fact that, unlike が, は doesn't necessarily mark who does the action, but it CAN! If you just said 俺は食べた with no context, there's hardly anything else it can mean. The difference between using は and が in this case, (i.e, 俺は食べた vs 俺が食べた) itself is context. は might emphasise the fact that you ate, or the fact that you ate might be something completely new. Maybe you guys weren't talking about you in the first place, but then you brought up a completely new topic, "俺" and now that's what you're talking about.

And there's also the は that marks action, but not what follows it directly. For example, "自分は父親が求めているプレセントを買った". In this example, yeah, dad is doing the action of wanting a present. But what about that present that dad wants? "I bought." The は doesn't attach to the verb 求める, but to 買う in this case. If you want to have another example like this but with the "What about X" that I brought up earlier, look at this: "私は金が欲しい" Now, 欲しい isn't "want"; it's desirable. So 金が欲しい is "Money is desirable." But for whom is it desirable? For you of course! 私は...(Okay, what about me?) 金が欲しい (Oh, money is desirable! For me, money is desirable!) This is where we get the "as for" crap that people say to substitute は with.

Lastly, I see が used a lot with adjectives. So if you have Xがadjective, it's probably meaning X is adjective. You don't need the です (You can't attach だ to adjectives), per se, but it makes it proper. The same goes for Xはnoun; you don't need the だ・です・である, but still.


I didn't try to format this well nor explain well. Take it to the Japanese thread in SAS if you want people to explain crap to you succinctly. I'm a sperg for languages.




Official theme: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWKYpy__lfA

ladyboy pancake
Jan 3, 2008

"Please let this be a normal field trip?"



Cooler than what posted:

Except Hungarian.


Én fáj a szavakat.

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ANIME MONSTROSITY
Jun 1, 2012
Probation
Can't post for 6 hours!


Kheldragar posted:

MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF AUTISM AHEAD

Well, for one 連体形 stands for attributive form and it's basically anything that is attributed to a noun or what have you. These include verbs, adjectives, and other nouns; modern Japanese, though, doesn't really use 連体形 in anything except for the one な standing in for だ that I explained earlier. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, though. For example, the 連体形 for an adjective is just changing the い to き from what I've seen. (I don't know what it is for verbs since it appears to be rare.) Going back to it being attributive, you can see the difference in something like this, "You all are beloved - あなた達が愛しい" to "Beloved you all - 愛しきあなた達" (Which doesn't translate well in English, but I think you can see my point.) But you're hardly going to hear 連体形 in adjectives like that outside of a few words that I think just add "style" to your sentence.

But wait, Kheldragar, "Why did you use が in that first example instead of は? And, hell, が doesn't even stand for "is" in the first place! だ・です・である and forms do!" Well I'm glad you asked that question in the first place! The first thing that everyone's told but that no one understands is that が -> subject は -> topic. But what the gently caress does that even mean in the first place? Well, first, you'd need to go through examples where が has completely different uses to は in the first place. The first has to do with just linking two sentances together; for example "日本語に飽きてしまったが勉強するのに絶望した!" The が here just links them together; nothing special. Besides this, there's the は that just tells what your sentence is about - the は which gives it an overarching theme. That's what it's meant by "topic".

So, for yet another example, "今日は映画館に行く" would mean something like "Today, (I'll/you'll/she'll/we'll etc.) go to the movie theatre." If you want to break it down a bit, "今日は..." (Okay, what about today?) "映画館に行く" (Oh! Go to the movie theatre." If you ever see a Xは, try thinking "Okay, what about X?" There's also the fact that, unlike が, は doesn't necessarily mark who does the action, but it CAN! If you just said 俺は食べた with no context, there's hardly anything else it can mean. The difference between using は and が in this case, (i.e, 俺は食べた vs 俺が食べた) itself is context. は might emphasise the fact that you ate, or the fact that you ate might be something completely new. Maybe you guys weren't talking about you in the first place, but then you brought up a completely new topic, "俺" and now that's what you're talking about.

And there's also the は that marks action, but not what follows it directly. For example, "自分は父親が求めているプレセントを買った". In this example, yeah, dad is doing the action of wanting a present. But what about that present that dad wants? "I bought." The は doesn't attach to the verb 求める, but to 買う in this case. If you want to have another example like this but with the "What about X" that I brought up earlier, look at this: "私は金が欲しい" Now, 欲しい isn't "want"; it's desirable. So 金が欲しい is "Money is desirable." But for whom is it desirable? For you of course! 私は...(Okay, what about me?) 金が欲しい (Oh, money is desirable! For me, money is desirable!) This is where we get the "as for" crap that people say to substitute は with.

Lastly, I see が used a lot with adjectives. So if you have Xがadjective, it's probably meaning X is adjective. You don't need the です (You can't attach だ to adjectives), per se, but it makes it proper. The same goes for Xはnoun; you don't need the だ・です・である, but still.


I didn't try to format this well nor explain well. Take it to the Japanese thread in SAS if you want people to explain crap to you succinctly. I'm a sperg for languages.


gimme your lunch money nerd

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