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Mordaedil posted:Could you write an interesting game where at the end you have to lose without it feeling like... Fallout 3's original ending? Nier does this with a certain ending. You lose big time.
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May 20, 2014 16:01
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Ragequit posted:Nier does this with a certain ending. You lose big time. Nier is an endless succession of losses, with each ending deepening the failure! I thought it was pretty fun in a gloomfilled kind of way.
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May 20, 2014 16:30
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SurrealityCheck posted:Nier is an endless succession of losses, with each ending deepening the failure! I loved the fact that Nier calls bullshit on the initial pig boss having so much health then the final level has you fighting an uberpig, running away from it and an army sacrificing itself to merely delay it. Hopelessness and being overwhelmed can be amazing if done right. However I don't see any situation my gun monk would find hopeless.  Edit: Unless he has to enter a not-being awesome contest, he'd loving suck at that. Mr.Pibbleton fucked around with this message at 17:04 on May 20, 2014 |
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May 20, 2014 17:01
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Haha, you guys just reminded me OF the Fallout 3 ending. I had blocked it off because I remember going, "...wut" when I finally did it. It was just so dumb. Oh man, it's certainly funny now, but back then it was just so not cool.
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May 20, 2014 17:03
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Drifter posted:Haha, you guys just reminded me OF the Fallout 3 ending. I had blocked it off because I remember going, "...wut" when I finally did it. It was just so dumb. There were TWO companions who not only were immune to radiation but actually benefited from it and if you talked to them they'd just say, "Nah, you go in there and die instead."
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May 20, 2014 17:05
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AG3 posted:It doesn't end well per se, but on the flip side it doesn't feel like a LOSS either. At least I didn't feel like that when I played it. The original Mass Effect 3 ending on the other hand... (not that the extended version was much better). Oh wait, that was supposed to be an ending where you win. My bad. It was kind of hard to tell back then That's kind of the point though. You didn't feel like it was a loss even though it strictly is. The Nameless One is damned for all eternity. That's exactly an example of an ending where you lose, without cheapening the narrative. SurrealityCheck posted:Nier is an endless succession of losses, with each ending deepening the failure! I think I am the only person who feels like Nier is just contrived misery porn and not anything special at the story telling level. By the end of the game, the ham handed plot twists they have to conjure to evoke Feel Bad literally caused me to laugh out loud.
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May 20, 2014 17:08
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Sensuki posted:I have a question regarding Scripted Interactions. Is the PC always the character who "interacts" with the world through Scripted Interactions, or does it work for whichever character you have selected ? Also for group actions such as "Climb a cliff", "Swim through an underground tunnel" and "Jump over a Bridge", does the one character's check count as a pass for the whole party, or is each individual character's attribute or skill checked individually?
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May 20, 2014 17:29
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The way Planescape managed it was to spend a great deal of time altering your definition of the word "loss". At the end, you can see it as a win because the game has convinced you it might actually be one. It's a really hard trick to pull off.
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May 20, 2014 17:33
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AG3 posted:It doesn't end well per se, but on the flip side it doesn't feel like a LOSS either. At least I didn't feel like that when I played it. The original Mass Effect 3 ending on the other hand... (not that the extended version was much better). Oh wait, that was supposed to be an ending where you win. My bad. It was kind of hard to tell back then Ending ME3 with a black screen after the final dialogue option saying "AND THEN SHEPARD DIED" would feel like less of a cop-out than what we got.
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May 20, 2014 17:36
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"Winning" was basically accepting that the Nameless One hosed up big and it was time to face the music. A bit depressing, what with going to Hell forever and all, but I have trouble imagining any other ending.
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May 20, 2014 17:37
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Mr.Pibbleton posted:There were TWO companions who not only were immune to radiation but actually benefited from it and if you talked to them they'd just say, "Nah, you go in there and die instead." Actually, I remember I could talk the super mutant into doing the final deed for me and he would do it, but he'd be like "what, you don't want to do it? I don't get why.  "And then the end bitches at you for not doing what needed to be done by you and basically calls you a chicken. Nothing upsets me quite as much as Ron Perlman calling me a chicken for not wanting to kill myself.
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May 20, 2014 17:43
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Mordaedil posted:Actually, I remember I could talk the super mutant into doing the final deed for me and he would do it, but he'd be like "what, you don't want to do it? I don't get why. That was added in in the Broken Steel expansion I think. Before they would just say "It's your destiny to die from radiation!" 
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May 20, 2014 17:47
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Mordaedil posted:Actually, I remember I could talk the super mutant into doing the final deed for me and he would do it, but he'd be like "what, you don't want to do it? I don't get why. As I recall, that only happens if you have the DLC that adds a post game and edits the ending. Because somehow you survive even if you go in yourself at that point.
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May 20, 2014 17:47
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Mordaedil posted:Actually, I remember I could talk the super mutant into doing the final deed for me and he would do it, but he'd be like "what, you don't want to do it? I don't get why. I think that was patched in in one of the DLC. In the release version I don't think he'd go in. But yeah, Fallout 3 was a fun open world shoot-em-RPG, but the writing was loving dire. EDIT: Welp, beaten like New Vegas beat F3
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May 20, 2014 17:48
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Yeah I don't get that NOBLE SACRIFICE with the reactor. The Lone Wanderer can do much more good to the wasteland alive while killing bandits/mutants being the badass he/she is.
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May 20, 2014 17:49
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frajaq posted:Yeah I don't get that NOBLE SACRIFICE with the reactor. The Lone Wanderer can do much more good to the wasteland alive while killing bandits/mutants being the badass he/she is. It's because even in Fallout, Bethesda couldn't get away from Tired Fantasy Tropes 101. I think one of the NPCs even refers to going into the reactor as being "your ~*Destiny*~". AT LAST THE ANCIENT PROPHECIES OF THE VAULT HAVE BEEN FULFILLED! THE HOUR OF DESTINY IS AT HAND! 
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May 20, 2014 17:51
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If someone else can do it and survive, there's literally never any reason for noble sacrifice, unless your moral understandings are still at a 16 year old lonely high school kid's level. Noble Sacrifice means something entirely different, it's not just killing yourself so that other people can finally recognize how really great you are and too bad for them they didn't realize that beforehand, but nope you sure showed them how great you truly were.
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May 20, 2014 17:55
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It's almost like Fallout 3 wasn't a very well-written game.
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May 20, 2014 17:57
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Yeah, it might have meant something if the battle had caused the reactor to collapse, dragging you and the one other person who is designated to be in the end-game sequence (little miss Lyons) into a place where your companions are inaccessible and there's no time for you to dig out before everything goes haywire and everyone dies. Then the choice actually could actually function as intended.
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May 20, 2014 17:58
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Captain Oblivious posted:That's kind of the point though. You didn't feel like it was a loss even though it strictly is. The Nameless One is damned for all eternity. Well that's the thing, right - it's ridiculously far in one direction. I enjoyed it, simply because there are so few games (or narratives in general) willing to go that far. It's not a masterpiece of story telling, but in the context of game narratives it was a pleasant surprise.
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May 20, 2014 18:02
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rope kid posted:It depends on the interaction. Sometimes it's a single character, other times it's the group and individual members of the party can become injured by being below the threshold. "Injury" in this case means a penalty that lasts until the next time you rest: twisted ankle, swollen eye, etc. Similar to the Dragon Age injuries but less... long-term-sounding. Cheers. Sounds good.
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May 20, 2014 18:16
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Captain Oblivious posted:I think I am the only person who feels like Nier is just contrived misery porn and not anything special at the story telling level. By the end of the game, the ham handed plot twists they have to conjure to evoke Feel Bad literally caused me to laugh out loud. No, I remember seeing the writing on the wall and ditching Nier before I even got to the cool text adventure segment I heard about and bought the game for. For me, Nier ends when the main character gets run over by a boar. Kind of a shame, since I liked the gameplay. The first boss fight was great.
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May 20, 2014 18:29
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Drifter posted:If someone else can do it and survive, there's literally never any reason for noble sacrifice, unless your moral understandings are still at a 16 year old lonely high school kid's level. You have a really low opinion of 16-year old kids. Abysmal, even.
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May 20, 2014 18:33
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Fair Bear Maiden posted:You have a really low opinion of 16-year old kids. Abysmal, even. Not at all. I just know average approximate times in which brain chemistry and exposure to societal influences start to change.
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May 20, 2014 18:55
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Fair Bear Maiden posted:You have a really low opinion of 16-year old kids. Abysmal, even. A justifiably low opinion of 16 year olds
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May 20, 2014 19:00
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Roobanguy posted:That was added in in the Broken Steel expansion I think. Before they would just say "It's your destiny to die from radiation!" I didn't have the expansion installed.
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May 20, 2014 19:10
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Captain Oblivious posted:That's kind of the point though. You didn't feel like it was a loss even though it strictly is. The Nameless One is damned for all eternity. It's Planescape. If you think an Epic level character like him ever has to just take stuff like that, well, there are ways out of the Blood War.
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May 20, 2014 19:41
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I thought the thing about Planescape was that it was an infinite multiverse, which means that no matter how big you think you are, there's something out there that's big enough to push your poo poo in and not break a sweat. A lot of those things are probably in the Blood War, given that it's the largest and most violent conflict in the history of everything.
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May 20, 2014 21:54
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I know lots of people hated it but Prince of Persia 2008's ending is at the top of my list. You win and wrap everything up, but it's a huge downer. Then the credits roll. Then you can choose to 'lose', there's no prompts, you just know what to do instinctively, and it brings everything full circle and it's beautiful.
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May 20, 2014 22:30
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Mordaedil posted:Could you write an interesting game where at the end you have to lose without it feeling like... Fallout 3's original ending? I always liked Phantasy Star 2's ending, which had a 'spit in the face of certain defeat' ending that really stood out from the other JRPGs of the time.
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May 20, 2014 22:41
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Scorchy posted:I know lots of people hated it but Prince of Persia 2008's ending is at the top of my list. You win and wrap everything up, but it's a huge downer. Then the credits roll. Then you can choose to 'lose', there's no prompts, you just know what to do instinctively, and it brings everything full circle and it's beautiful. I thought people disliked the game for its simplistic gameplay rather than the ending - I heard a lot of praise for the ending specifically. Or is that unusual?
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May 20, 2014 23:03
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Scorchy posted:I know lots of people hated it but Prince of Persia 2008's ending is at the top of my list. You win and wrap everything up, but it's a huge downer. Then the credits roll. Then you can choose to 'lose', there's no prompts, you just know what to do instinctively, and it brings everything full circle and it's beautiful. I liked Prince of Persia 08. Felt like the team really managed to capture that old folk tale feel with it, if that makes any sense.
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May 20, 2014 23:33
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SurrealityCheck posted:I thought people disliked the game for its simplistic gameplay rather than the ending - I heard a lot of praise for the ending specifically. Or is that unusual? I mostly read a lot of mainstream people complaining about how the ending was 'unfinished', so much so they put out an epilogue DLC. I couldn't play it but I read was kinda pointless.
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May 20, 2014 23:34
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I missed the 08 part and thought you were talking about the first Sands of Time POP. That had a great ending that also had a sense of loss, on a personal character level. And hope and stuff, but still.
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May 20, 2014 23:38
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Scorchy posted:I know lots of people hated it but Prince of Persia 2008's ending is at the top of my list. You win and wrap everything up, but it's a huge downer. Then the credits roll. Then you can choose to 'lose', there's no prompts, you just know what to do instinctively, and it brings everything full circle and it's beautiful. Prince of Persia 2008 had the most...grimly...cathartic ending I've ever played? It's horrifying in it's inevitability. There's nothing saying you have to do this but you know you need to do it. It's like being an alcoholic with a drink in hand. It is a death march. I need to go replay that game.
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May 20, 2014 23:42
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Mordaedil posted:Could you write an interesting game where at the end you have to lose without it feeling like... Fallout 3's original ending? It depends how you're defining a loss. Fallout 3's ending failed because everything about it was leading up towards something triumphant at the end, and then tripped over it's own feet because it tried to force a noble sacrifice where one was unnecessary. On the other hand, if a game is built around that loss, with every game element being used to better frame or accentuate that loss, I think it could actually become a worthwhile experience on it's own. People have been discussing the use of tragedy in art for as long as it's existed. Aristotle asserted that tragedy in theater served as a way for the viewer to temporarily experience the dangers of life vicariously. Plato thought that it was a form of catharsis, a way to purge the soul of negative emotions by giving them an outlet. Nietzche was of the opinion that tragedy was a necessary part of life, and that if they found it lacking in their own lives, people would seek it out in art instead. So with that in mind, I guess I'd say that if you set out with the goal of making a genuinely tragic story for your game, (as opposed to the Mass Effect 3 and Fallout 3's where what was meant to be a triumphant ending was fumbled so thoroughly as to cast a shadow on everything that had come before) then the answer is yes. Keeshhound fucked around with this message at 00:00 on May 21, 2014 |
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May 20, 2014 23:56
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Scorchy posted:I mostly read a lot of mainstream people complaining about how the ending was 'unfinished', so much so they put out an epilogue DLC. I couldn't play it but I read was kinda pointless.
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May 21, 2014 00:20
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I'm suddenly reminded of how mad I am that we're never getting a sequel to PoP 2008
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May 21, 2014 00:21
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Plato prefers not to concern himself with poetry. Aristotle is the proponent of catharsis.14492b posted:ἔστιν οὖν τραγῳδία μίμησις πράξεως σπουδαίας καὶ τελείας μέγεθος ἐχούσης ... δι᾽ ἐλέου καὶ φόβου περαίνουσα τὴν τῶν τοιούτων παθημάτων κάθαρσιν. So tragedy is this reflection of a deed which is of great import, which is final, and which has a certain magnitude ... by pity and fear, it accomplishes the catharsis of such emotions.
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May 21, 2014 00:34
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e: wrong thread!
spider wisdom fucked around with this message at 03:31 on May 21, 2014 |
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May 21, 2014 00:35
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