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I was just wondering if anyone else thought that the individual that Clem encounters and says she thought was dead in the teaser for S2E2 might be? I was talking to my little sister, who is also an avid fan of this series, and she thought it might be Lily. After all, I doubt anyone really expected her to have survived in universe, and would explain the tone of Clem's voice: Surprised, but not in a good way.
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Jan 5, 2014 18:49
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THE PWNER posted:Oh don't worry, she already does. The way she speaks to her after the timeskip and the glare at her in the opening scene says it all. Imagine if in S1E1 you could somehow initiate some kind of flashback showing how Lee totally didn't kill that dude.
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Jan 5, 2014 19:27
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Hattie Masters posted:I was just wondering if anyone else thought that the individual that Clem encounters and says she thought was dead in the teaser for S2E2 might be?
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Jan 5, 2014 19:57
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The most common objection to the game seems to be "this little girl isn't thinking 100% perfect in all situations and starving dogs never behave erratically." it's kinda silly.
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Jan 5, 2014 20:15
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socialsecurity posted:The most common objection to the game seems to be "this little girl isn't thinking 100% perfect in all situations and starving dogs never behave erratically." it's kinda silly. People on the internet have to complain about something. Giving undiluted praise is just impossible, so I like to think that the small scale of the complaints is the closest thing possible to being complimentary.
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Jan 5, 2014 20:22
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I question with the time skip if Clem had been with Christa longer than she's been with Lee
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Jan 5, 2014 20:31
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Meinberg posted:People on the internet have to complain about something. Giving undiluted praise is just impossible, so I like to think that the small scale of the complaints is the closest thing possible to being complimentary. What are you talking about dude? People are either "It's the best thing ever!" or "It's the worst thing ever!" there's really no middle ground. At least we level our complaints with mostly well-reasoned issues.
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Jan 5, 2014 20:41
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Thoughts on the ending question: who are thepeople that Clem was around to see ambiguously disappear or maybe die? Not Kenny - how would she know? Definitely Lily. Glen left but there's no reason for him to be dead. I'm assuming Mark was confirmed dead but who knows, maybe he's alive and looks like Lt. Dan now (I loved Mark, actually wanted to help him out, worst one-note character death ever and he kinda looks like Steve Albini.) Christa. Who else? Wow, suddenly the suggestion that it's Lily looks alarmingly good. strangemusic fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Jan 5, 2014 |
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Jan 5, 2014 20:56
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Mark eats the fat mom.
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Jan 5, 2014 21:00
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strangemusic posted:Thoughts on the ending question:
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Jan 5, 2014 21:04
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Hattie Masters posted:I was just wondering if anyone else thought that the individual that Clem encounters and says she thought was dead in the teaser for S2E2 might be? Well from what I understand these are the possible individuals that are more likely to less likely that will appear. Lilly > Kenny > Christa > Victor > Molly > Vernon > Chet/Andre > Someone we haven't encountered before that Clem knows > Super Zombie Lee It could also be possible that what Clem's says is a player choice as well. socialsecurity posted:Mark eats the fat mom. Well he was hungry 
Extreme0 fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Jan 5, 2014 |
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Jan 5, 2014 21:09
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RightClickSaveAs posted:Gah I'm hoping it's not Lilly, she was the worst. Precisely. When Clem said what she said, it wasn't happy. It was nervous, anxious, maybe even scared. Lily would fit that perfectly. My sister's theory was that If it had been Kenny, Clem would likely to have been a hell of a lot happier than she sounds in the teaser. Lily, on the other hand, the woman who she knows went nuts and either got abandoned by the group or stole their RV, and whom either way she thought would be dead? That would be an entirely appropriate response. Plus, there's all the stuff about how Lily was originally the Lily from Woodbury in the comics, so she was always going to survive her split from the group.
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Jan 5, 2014 21:24
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socialsecurity posted:Mark eats the fat mom. Son of a bitch, you're right. I completely dismissed that for some reason and just thought he expired after he dragged himself downstairs. Also it's very dark in that sequence (which was done really well by the way) so I guess I didn't recognize him.
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Jan 5, 2014 21:26
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Hattie Masters posted:Plus, there's all the stuff about how Lily was originally the Lily from Woodbury in the comics, so she was always going to survive her split from the group. Telltale retconned it after "Road to Woodbury" so that it isn't the same Lilly in the comics. Now that I think about it. It could also be the Bandit Victor. The one that Clem can give water too. strangemusic posted:Son of a bitch, you're right. I completely dismissed that for some reason and just thought he expired after he dragged himself downstairs. Also it's very dark in that sequence (which was done really well by the way) so I guess I didn't recognize him. I'm wondering how Mark managed to get past the bedroom door considering that the Brothers or Brenda put him back up there. Unless they were too stupid to close the door.
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Jan 5, 2014 21:34
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It's the same Lily in my mind. Spinoff novels don't change a thing. It'd make sense, too. We don't know what happened to her after the prison.
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Jan 5, 2014 21:35
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Call Me Charlie posted:Or they could pretend to give you a choice and still have the same thing happen like you put the board back but the zombie easily pushes it down since there's nothing holding it or the thief still gets the jump on you because you zip the gun up in your backpack and she has a knife or something There are choices like that in the last game where the outcome is the same whatever you choose, and people missed the point of those and bitched about them too. The reason there is no option to pick up the gun is that Clem forgot. The fact that she forgot is important to the game. We all know that you would have remembered the gun, but Clem isn't a faceless mute protagonist for you to project yourself onto like Gordon Freeman. She's a ten year old girl who you make decisions for, but only when her character recognises a decision exists. And even then only among options her character would be comfortable with.
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Jan 5, 2014 21:42
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jabby posted:She's a ten year old girl who you make decisions for When you put it like that the whole thing seems a bit creepy.
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Jan 5, 2014 21:47
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Extreme0 posted:Now that I think about it. It could also be the Bandit Victor. The one that Clem can give water too.
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Jan 5, 2014 21:57
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jabby posted:The reason there is no option to pick up the gun is that Clem forgot. The fact that she forgot is important to the game. We all know that you would have remembered the gun, but Clem isn't a faceless mute protagonist for you to project yourself onto like Gordon Freeman. She's a ten year old girl who you make decisions for, but only when her character recognises a decision exists. And even then only among options her character would be comfortable with. So what you're saying is excuse the bad writing because ten year old girl?
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Jan 5, 2014 22:17
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Call Me Charlie posted:So what you're saying is excuse the bad writing because ten year old girl? Is it bad writing that a Ten Year old girl would not act perfectly in a stressful situation?
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Jan 5, 2014 22:24
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Call Me Charlie posted:So what you're saying is excuse the bad writing because ten year old girl?
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Jan 5, 2014 22:31
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Pharmaskittle posted:Probably mid-lower Appalachia, by my best guess going on plot stuff and the terrain. So someplace like Tennessee, Kentucky, or the Carolinas. Which moves the setting out of the real Deep South and puts it more in mountain folk country. I could've sworn that when you're looking for something to burn you can pick up a North Carolina license plate (I remember thinking, okay, so that's where we are).
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Jan 5, 2014 22:33
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Maia posted:I could've sworn that when you're looking for something to burn you can pick up a North Carolina license plate (I remember thinking, okay, so that's where we are). You do.
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Jan 5, 2014 22:39
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socialsecurity posted:You do. Fun in-game fact: license plates do not burn. 
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Jan 5, 2014 22:49
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socialsecurity posted:Is it bad writing that a Ten Year old girl would not act perfectly in a stressful situation? I'd say it's bad writing to force the player into doing something stupid to serve the plot. And I'm sure that Karnegal posted:
isn't what Telltale wanted people to feel when they put together that scene.
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Jan 5, 2014 23:11
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With the two time skips, where are we in regards to the comic canon? Kirkman is pretty vague about the passing of time, butRick should be at the safe zone now right? I know that Tavia's community probably isn't the Safe Zone, unless they're offically breaking this off into it's own canon but I was just wondering out of curiosity.
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Jan 5, 2014 23:11
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Call Me Charlie posted:I'd say it's bad writing to force the player into doing something stupid to serve the plot. This isn't Skyrim, it's a choose your own adventure, you might as well be bitching about how Clem isn't bunnyhopping around headshotting all the zombies because that is totally what you would do.
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Jan 5, 2014 23:18
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socialsecurity posted:This isn't Skyrim, it's a choose your own adventure, you might as well be bitching about how Clem isn't bunnyhopping around headshotting all the zombies because that is totally what you would do. Be honest. How are you getting that from me saying that a choice should be available even if the end result is the same?
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Jan 5, 2014 23:25
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Call Me Charlie posted:Be honest. How are you getting that from me saying that a choice should be available even if the end result is the same? Like several people are trying to say, you don't have total freedom in this game because you are playing a character. Clem is a ten year old girl for a reason, if she had absolutely no traits of her own then she wouldn't be a character, she'd be completely devoid of personality. Which might work in other games, but not this one. Hence why a lot of people think criticising the fact that you can't play Clem as totally infallible (your 'bad writing') is crazy, since its clearly intentional and helpful to the story.
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Jan 6, 2014 00:45
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Steve2911 posted:When you put it like that the whole thing seems a bit creepy. Well the genre of parenting simulators never took off because actual parents didn't want to play videogames that were too close to life. That and you couldn't scream at the kids to shut-up, they felt handicapped.
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Jan 6, 2014 00:47
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Karnegal posted:But just starring at it and leaving it before then complicity chasing a now empty water bottle was a sort of idiot move that put me off. Why? She methodically checked every bathroom stall before putting the gun on the counter. This implies that she felt safe after checking them. Why would her dropping her own water bootle by mistake and going three feet away to pick it up merit her feeling like she was in danger again? She already knew there was nothing in the stalls since she checked them herself earlier and she hardly needs a gun to walk three feet away. Admittedly it was a momentary lapse of judgment to leave the gun out of sight but it was hardly an illogical or stupid thing to do. MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Jan 6, 2014 |
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Jan 6, 2014 00:56
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jabby posted:Like several people are trying to say, you don't have total freedom in this game because you are playing a character. Clem is a ten year old girl for a reason, if she had absolutely no traits of her own then she wouldn't be a character, she'd be completely devoid of personality. Which might work in other games, but not this one. Hence why a lot of people think criticising the fact that you can't play Clem as totally infallible (your 'bad writing') is crazy Who said I was asking for total freedom? How is 'don't force me to do something stupid even if the other choice has the same end result' equal to wanting to play Clem as totally infallible? You guys are acting like I said that Clem totally should have got the hammer in time cuz I'm a total badass dude. jabby posted:since its clearly intentional and helpful to the story. to-mato, bad writing-o
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Jan 6, 2014 00:58
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Call Me Charlie posted:How is 'don't force me to do something stupid even if the other choice has the same end result' equal to wanting to play Clem as totally infallible? Because she made a mistake that seems plausible for her character and you are complaining and calling it bad writing, presumably because you yourself could identify a better course of action? That seems a lot like 'I don't like it when she makes mistakes that I, an adult sitting in his living room rather than living in a zombie apocalypse, wouldn't make'. Call Me Charlie posted:to-mato, bad writing-o I don't get it. It would clearly be detrimental to the story to give Clem the option to take her gun with her, since it would absolve her of responsibility in Omid's death and potentially change her whole relationship with Christa and thus the development of her character. How would that be better writing? jabby fucked around with this message at 01:26 on Jan 6, 2014 |
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Jan 6, 2014 01:20
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Yeah, really. Carley not knowing what batteries are and Lee turning off the only thing protecting them from a horde of ravenous zombies over a hunch on the diary farm is honest bad writing. A stressed out little girl forgetting to bring her a gun in a momentary lack of judgement is not.
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Jan 6, 2014 01:32
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You know what? I didn't even really notice initially, but started to worry immediately after that moment of "meh whatever" when I realized that the gun was in a vulnerable place and I wasn't near it and couldn't do a drat thing. Game, set, match, design/writing goal achieved. Having her leave it there drives home the point that nothing is too small to be careful about, nowhere is quite as safe because she doesn't have Lee watching her back anymore, she's comfortable and relatively friendly with Christa to the point where their mutual guard is down, and makes the remainder of the scene tougher to swallow when you see the consequences for Omid. And also: I really liked that you don't even get a diplomacy/think about it option when Christa comes in and she just shoots the thief right there. Also, god dammit yes, in the house I ended up reflexively stealing the watch and I feel like a horrible person now. strangemusic fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Jan 6, 2014 |
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Jan 6, 2014 01:41
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It's not like the in-game tutorial for the first episode of the first season wasn't clearly telegraphing to you that you can't avoid the failings of your own character or anything. 1. Unable to get the cop to focus on the road. 2. Dropping the keys to the cuffs. 3. Dropping the shotgun shell when you initially try to load the shotgun. 4. falling and tripping on things that you've already been tripped up by before. Seriously terrible writing, guys. I'm gong to drop this series right now.
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Jan 6, 2014 01:58
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strangemusic posted:And also: I really liked that you don't even get a diplomacy/think about it option when Christa comes in and she just shoots the thief right there. In a similar vein I think the choices that come up for Clem can be telling in their way. If you assume that for a choice to appear it means that 'Clem the character' is actually thinking about it then it's pretty meaningful that she seriously considers abandoning Christa when she's in trouble. I mean it's not like you ever got a 'forget about Clementine' option as Lee, because it would be so against his character. So for Clem to think abandoning Christa was an option it speaks to the fragility of their relationship.
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Jan 6, 2014 01:59
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jabby posted:I don't get it. It would clearly be detrimental to the story to give Clem the option to take her gun with her, since it would absolve her of responsibility in Omid's death and potentially change her whole relationship with Christa and thus the development of her character. How would that be better writing? Well, I already posted the hypothetical but Clem's in the bathroom. The bottle rolls away. The player clicks the bag, she puts the gun inside and zips it up. She goes into stall to get the bottle and hears the door open. She gets on the toilet to hide like she did. She quietly tries to open bag to get the gun (she could even drop the bag if you really want to put the blame on her) but the lady finds her before she can. Everything after that can be the same. Nothing changes storywise. The only difference is the people who realized what was coming up don't feel like they got railroaded into making a bad decision. Same thing with the shed Click the board and you put it back but the zombie still gets in because it's not attached to anything.
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Jan 6, 2014 02:03
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I think you might be missing the point that there are ways she could've done the "smart thing" and still gotten the same outcome - zipping up the gun, for example - but the point of those scenes are for her to make a mistake, one that we can see, maybe even see coming, and set the tone for her character arc. Forgetting her gun is important to her character and development. It's a minute mistake, she was only going a few feet away, what could happen right? But something can happen, and of course it did. And even though Christa knows she shouldn't blame a ten-year-old, her loss and grief are enough that she can't help but hold it against Clem. Clementine might even hold it against herself, which just goes on top of the guilt she feels for having indirectly killed Lee by running away to find her parents. The Clementine who's made these mistakes is a tougher one by the time we see her again at the camp fire. She's closed off and defensive, and certainly doesn't let her guard down after it got people she cared about killed. That's an important place they're trying to put you and Clementine at the start of the season, likely so they can present you with the struggle to maintain Clementine's humanity and empathy. A lot of players, primed by these earlier losses, are right there with Clem telling everyone to gently caress off and not letting their guard down for a second. That's effective writing. There's a difference between writing failure and a deliberate choice by the writer to illustrate something about a character. Here, any frustration on your part about not being able to pick up the gun is intentional, and meant to indicate something about Clementine and how she thinks (like a ten year old who thinks she's safe). I remember thinking having to shut down the electric fence was dumb and heavy-handed writing back in episode 2, but this is perfectly valid.
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Jan 6, 2014 02:27
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Call Me Charlie posted:Well, I already posted the hypothetical but That's stupid because it absolves her of any responsibility. The whole point of that scene is that Clem makes a serious mistake that causes Omid's death, and you don't want her to make stupid mistakes. If you think that forgetting to keep track of her gun could be replaced with dropping something and still have the same tone I don't know what to tell you. It's even explicitly foreshadowed in what Omid says right before she enters the bathroom. Call Me Charlie posted:Same thing with the shed That's a pointless addition that adds nothing though. 99% of players click *everything* that's clickable. Meaning that if you never 'force' the character to miss something then it will rarely get missed by anyone. Making your characters a lot more capable than they are supposed to be. Not to mention someone will still complain, either about the fact that their decisions have no impact or that they are being 'railroaded' by not having the option to construct an elaborate zombie-trap out of string and toothpicks. jabby fucked around with this message at 02:35 on Jan 6, 2014 |
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Jan 6, 2014 02:28
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