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With Alyssa, though, I sort of got the idea that she was intimidated into sex or raped by those two guys in high school. The subject of rape comes up twice and she's the character that makes both the comments: "Is a girl who is raped still a virgin" and the story of her uncle and the girl he knew who got raped and killed. Coupled with her reaction to Holden reminding her of the fingercuffs story and her final reaction to Holden's threesome plan, I sort of think that there was a whole back story with her character that was going on that just wasn't explored. But for a comedy, that's a pretty dark road to go down.
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Jan 3, 2014 19:47
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Personally I'm pumped for Tusk. Finally, a movie I can relate to.
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Jan 3, 2014 19:59
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JediTalentAgent posted:With Alyssa, though, I sort of got the idea that she was intimidated into sex or raped by those two guys in high school. Well, she said she "used them", like it was voluntary. If she was raped or abused, and that's why she became a lesbian, it would be an even worse stereotype.
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Jan 3, 2014 23:42
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everyone posted:Chasing Amy bullshit. Smith v. Lesbian, available in lots of other places online if you don't like this one: http://www.noob.us/humor/kevin-smith-confronts-lela/ Him: "We have the idiot character in the movie... say that, hence deflating the argument... we put those words into the guy that's always wrong in the movie." Her: "I got that point... but [don't you think SOME PEOPLE didn't get it]?" Him:  I am not a blind Kevin Smith supporter, Cop Out is dogshit. And Smith is "dumb but harmless" but most people think that's because he's still LITERALLY the Silent Bob character in life. Which, Silent Bob was the one who loving explained the plot to Chasing Amy in the movie and people still don't get it but whatever. JediTalentAgent posted:With Alyssa, though, I sort of got the idea that she was intimidated into sex or raped by those two guys in high school. The whole point of the Kevin Smith's career (well, the less poo poo parts) is that life isn't that black and white. We must confront the interpersonal and societal constructs that shape our view of the world often without us knowing it- and whether or not we overcome those obstacles (or whether we even want to), we're stronger people for having examined them. Like the story of the contractors on the Death Star in Clerks. The point isn't to say the Rebels were bad guys, it's to discuss assumptions you didn't even realize you were making. Or: Alyssa isn't "a lesbian", just like Banky isn't "a gay", so any analysis from that simple perspective fails. It is made abundantly clear that Alyssa has chosen her own path in life, of her own volition. This point alone is immensely empowering to women and lesbians in particular. If you're really just pissed off that it ends on a down note, go see Zack and Miri. It's the exact same plot with a happy-sappy ending. The lesbian in-group isn't there to say something bad about lesbians, it's there to showcase a situation wherein people have assumed something and have to face their reactions when that assumption is violated. Most of the major statements in this movie, much like this one, are placed very explicitly into a certain time and place, and wouldn't appear in a film made today (or even in another place). Plotwise, the in-group are a foil to Banky's relationship with Ben Affleck (during the conflict Banky accepts Ben Affleck but rejects his choice, the in-group accept Alyssa's choice but rejects her).
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Jan 4, 2014 02:24
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That video reminds me, Kevin Smith the actual physical person seems neat. I'd go listen to the guy talk about stuff, but mostly his own movies. And maybe with an audience that laughs less. But not the Podcast, he's too buddy-buddy with people who already know him and part of the fun is watching how he physically reacts to people, visually and otherwise.
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Jan 4, 2014 03:20
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kevin smith lived/lives in my hometown of red bank new jersey, and was routinely the worst person to ever encounter. sometimes he'd be spotted walking down broad street with a walker. in the rare occasion he was actually in his comic book store, he would ignore people who tried to address him. i read that post earlier in the thread where the guy "bs"ed with k.smith, and that guy must have looked super pthetic because when normal people approached him he was varying degrees of "bad" to "extremely rude". i saw him in a movie theater and tried to get a picture with him & he insulted my joy division shirt and told me he doesn't "do" fanservice. also at his comic book shop, he hosted a degrassi cast member autograph event, and walked outside and made fun of all of the people in line (i was in line, to get Sean's signature, my favorite, but left, because k.smith embarrassed me too much.) several times i was at a restaurant tht he suddenly decided to rent out, and everyone had to leave immediately. he acted as a villain for much of my adolescent years and i will never watch any movies he has made and i assume they're all bad, because he is bad, and i hate kevin smith. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 4, 2014 04:45
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revdrkevind posted:Smith v. Lesbian, available in lots of other places online if you don't like this one: Banky's words come true in the movie. Alyssa isn't a lesbian anymore once Ben Affleck gives her a deep-dicking, and her friends are depicted as man-hating dykes. quote:The whole point of the Kevin Smith's career (well, the less poo poo parts) is that life isn't that black and white. We must confront the interpersonal and societal constructs that shape our view of the world often without us knowing it- and whether or not we overcome those obstacles (or whether we even want to), we're stronger people for having examined them. Like the story of the contractors on the Death Star in Clerks. The point isn't to say the Rebels were bad guys, it's to discuss assumptions you didn't even realize you were making. Kevin Smith is not this deep. Chasing Amy is his auto-biographical account of the insecurities he had in his relationship at the time with Joey Lauren Adams, and the lesbianism was added to make it edgier (Adams never had a lesbian relationship). The shunning from her lesbian friends was taken from the movie Go Fish, which was made by a friend of his.
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Jan 4, 2014 05:00
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Toady posted:Banky's words come true in the movie. Alyssa isn't a lesbian anymore once Ben Affleck gives her a deep-dicking, and her friends are depicted as man-hating dykes. Just because it's an autobiographical account doesn't mean it has to be 100% accurate to his life. It can both be a movie about a man dealing with his girlfriend's sexual history and a movie about the fluidity of human sexuality. Never assume the person telling the story is dumb, even if it is the man who wrote Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back. Kevin Smith isn't a dumb guy, after all. He might be whiny and incapable of handling criticism, but he's not dumb. And especially back when he was apparently giving a poo poo about the movies he wrote (Chasing Amy and Dogma are almost unquestionably his best movies, even for all of those flaws), he's a guy who knew what he was doing. Not to mention she fell in love with him before they had sex, and she went back to women after the relationship ended, clearly Alyssa was never a lesbian, at least not in the "is only attracted to women" sense of the word.
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Jan 4, 2014 05:11
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Clerks and its progression to Clerks 2 is super interesting. In Clerks there's the interesting dynamic between Dante and Randall. Dante hates his life but doesn't change it, because he's either too nervous about failing or would rather win some small narcissistic victory by 'outsmarting' the people he serves at the store and being that weird Gen X kind of anarchy where you account for nothing and serve the system but it's okay because you're super sarcastic about it and hate it too. This was displayed as a negative trait and explored really well. Randall legitimately enjoys what he is doing, and is almost completely unfettered by real aspirations. He's the smart one, in that sense, and that's a cool thing to address too - there's nothing wrong with working in a video store, if that's all you want to do with your life, hey it's nice that you can enjoy yourself so easily. Wish I could. In Clerks 2 everyone's just a Kevin Smithy, Joss Whedony mess that doesn't really display much of anything. Dante is eventually getting out of the place he hates, but turns out he likes it!!!!!!! and stays, which would be an interesting thing if it didn't play it completely straight as a happy revelation. Like, not only did the guy waste his life thinking he hated it, he's basically in love with being an aloof rear end in a top hat who could do something but doesn't because he doesn't want to, maaaaan. Randal is exactly the same except when he suddenly breaks character at the end and it turns out he likes Dante too even though all he does is complain. It's really depressing Hollywood bullshit where the ending has everything fit together in a nice convenient package but you can't think too much about it, and for me that's death knell of Smith's ideas. The movie itself seems to switch styles into something you'd see in a more conventional and lovely Hollywood romantic comedy. Clerks 2 is 97 minutes of watching characters and concepts and filmmaking ability you once enjoyed metamorphose into garbage.
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Jan 4, 2014 05:53
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NeuroticErotica posted:This is a common defense of Cop Out, but it doesn't excuse it. Cop Out has one of my favorite examples of Smith's failure as a director. The finale hinges around a shootout at a house where the baseball card (let's not forget what this movie is about, a baseball card) is. In watching the film it is impossible to tell how the house is laid out at all. The baseball card is in a vault on the second floor, but I'm unsure as to where on the second floor (Is it close to the stairs? Is it hard to get to?) it is, or how the rest of the house exists. In many instances, this is not vital knowledge. HOWEVER, when the scene is a shootout where the critical piece of importance is where characters are in relation to one another, the scene becomes a mess. Also in this scene is the big plot point of Kevin Pollack's character getting shot - it's impossible to tell who shot him, when he got shot, where he was when he got shot, etc. Wasn't he shooting during the day and editing at night on Cop Out? That could explain why it's such a loving mess.
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Jan 4, 2014 08:11
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Yoshifan823 posted:Just because it's an autobiographical account doesn't mean it has to be 100% accurate to his life. It can both be a movie about a man dealing with his girlfriend's sexual history and a movie about the fluidity of human sexuality. Kevin Smith wrote a short essay about it that was included with the DVD. I don't think it was trying to make any statement about homosexuality. That was a salacious foil in the beginning that didn't affect the protagonist. quote:Not to mention she fell in love with him before they had sex, and she went back to women after the relationship ended, clearly Alyssa was never a lesbian, at least not in the "is only attracted to women" sense of the word. I can understand why it would be insulting to certain groups who might view it as a portrayal of the male fantasy that lesbians are confused or bitter women who just need sex with the right man to set them straight. Toady fucked around with this message at 09:37 on Jan 4, 2014 |
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Jan 4, 2014 08:17
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paige posted:kevin smith lived/lives in my hometown of red bank new jersey, and was routinely the worst person to ever encounter. sometimes he'd be spotted walking down broad street with a walker. in the rare occasion he was actually in his comic book store, he would ignore people who tried to address him. i read that post earlier in the thread where the guy "bs"ed with k.smith, and that guy must have looked super pthetic because when normal people approached him he was varying degrees of "bad" to "extremely rude". i saw him in a movie theater and tried to get a picture with him & he insulted my joy division shirt and told me he doesn't "do" fanservice. also at his comic book shop, he hosted a degrassi cast member autograph event, and walked outside and made fun of all of the people in line (i was in line, to get Sean's signature, my favorite, but left, because k.smith embarrassed me too much.) several times i was at a restaurant tht he suddenly decided to rent out, and everyone had to leave immediately. he acted as a villain for much of my adolescent years and i will never watch any movies he has made and i assume they're all bad, because he is bad, and i hate kevin smith. This post is weird and funny, I don't think it should earn a probation in a thread about a guy that has publicly talked about how he licks his wife's butthole
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Jan 4, 2014 11:57
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Call Me Charlie posted:Wasn't he shooting during the day and editing at night on Cop Out? That could explain why it's such a loving mess. That doesn't explain anything. If you're not preparing for the day you're not doing your job as a director.
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Jan 4, 2014 14:20
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NeuroticErotica posted:That doesn't explain anything. If you're not preparing for the day you're not doing your job as a director. Call Me Charlie posted:Wasn't he shooting during the day and editing at night on Cop Out? That could explain why it's such a loving mess. Productions are routinely edited as they are shot - it's how many films reach their studio deadlines. But that's usually the editor's job as it gives the production a sense of objectivity - a good director knows how a smooth relationship with an editor can make or break a film. What was telling on Cop Out was how Smith had utterly no idea what lens size did what and had to be pulled aside and given a pep talk that it was grossly unprofessional as a director to just waste everyone's time cycling through the kit trying to find the right angle.
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Jan 4, 2014 16:00
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Joey Gladstone posted:This post is weird and funny, I don't think it should earn a probation in a thread about a guy that has publicly talked about how he licks his wife's butthole It was probated because of the lack of caps lock or attention to grammar or readability and for "k.smith" and generally typing like a 12-year old on a T-Mobile Sidekick. Maybe that wasn't clear from the reason I wrote but whatever, it was six-hours. I won't go into it any further.
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Jan 4, 2014 17:31
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The point that I got from Chasing Amy was not about lesbianism or whatever but sexual insecurities. The only type of man Alyssa is interested in is a kind of nonthreatening guy who would have no problem being good friends with a lesbian. Whereas Ben Affleck's character is so insecure that he'd rather date somebody he believes to be a lesbian than a woman with a sexual history with other men.
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Jan 4, 2014 18:23
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Joey Gladstone posted:This post is weird and funny, I don't think it should earn a probation in a thread about a guy that has publicly talked about how he licks his wife's butthole It was a fake post.
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Jan 4, 2014 20:40
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The lens thing is a little overblown. He knew lenses, and knew which lenses he wanted; he just had a shorthand with his DP as to which he wanted to use as he never learned their names or focal lengths. It's a weird, backwards way of doing things, but I've DPd for plenty of people who do it, and as long as they know what kind of shot they want, it's not a problem. I hate that I'm defending a guy whose movies I've outgrown, for the most part, but some of the criticisms feel like reaching.
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Jan 4, 2014 23:03
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Hbomberguy posted:Randal is exactly the same except when he suddenly breaks character at the end and it turns out he likes Dante too even though all he does is complain. Not that the rest of Clerks 2 is amazing storytelling, but Randall's arc fits pretty well into his character. In the first movie his whole point is that he's fine just being a slacker, as all he really wants to do his hang around and bs and be a bit of a shithead. He spends all of Clerks 2 acting the same way, and all of his development is back-loaded because it's really Dante's movie. His only major development is tied into Dante's crisis about whether or not he wants to move away, with Randall reiterating that he was completely fine just running the video store, and that contrary to the antagonistic nature of their relationship, Dante was pretty much the only one that Randall really considered a friend. I mean yeah the entire movie is pretty bad aside from a few rogue jokes popping up, but I honestly think that Randall's character arc is solid. It even makes sense because basically every other character kinda hates him for being a shithead, but Dante is also a dumb bad shithead character so it all fits 
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Jan 11, 2014 01:30
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Death Bot posted:Not that the rest of Clerks 2 is amazing storytelling, but Randall's arc fits pretty well into his character. In the first movie his whole point is that he's fine just being a slacker, as all he really wants to do his hang around and bs and be a bit of a shithead. He spends all of Clerks 2 acting the same way, and all of his development is back-loaded because it's really Dante's movie. His only major development is tied into Dante's crisis about whether or not he wants to move away, with Randall reiterating that he was completely fine just running the video store, and that contrary to the antagonistic nature of their relationship, Dante was pretty much the only one that Randall really considered a friend. I'm not ashamed to admit that I found Randall to be the most inspiring character in the movies. Guy knows what he wants out of life and does it.
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Jan 11, 2014 01:35
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Randal is rare, because he knows exactly who he is and he likes it. While Smith himself probably wrote the character out of a Peter Panish fear of growing up, the character himself isn't emotionally stunted like his creator is. He isn't running from adulthood. He's rejecting the idea that age dictates behavior just as he rejected the notion that title dictates behavior. He's actualized.
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Jan 11, 2014 03:04
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One of the things about Clerks 2 that felt really out of place was the whole scene with the pickle guy. It was one of those moves that I say turns a smart-rear end into an rear end in a top hat. You could maybe argue that Randall treated the guy like poo poo because he came out of a lovely school experience and tried to grow up and away from it to be a very successful adult and Randall found that insulting enough in itself, but I don't even really the guy doing anything other than being there to instigate him.
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Jan 11, 2014 03:19
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:Most of Kevin Smith's movies range from bad to very bad but I still think Chasing Amy is kind of a mini masterpiece. Everybody's got one, I guess. I watched Chasing Amy because of this thread and I have to agree with this. It's a personal masterpiece for Smith in terms of actually having a bit of maturity (even if it falls a bit short in that regard, by Smith's standards it's a high bar) and pulling you in. It raises interesting points about sexuality and didn't handle that aspect nearly as poorly as I thought it would when I came into it. It's crass but it's also effective. Ben Affleck's character is an idiot which is an important thing to realise coming into the movie. I had some issues with it and wouldn't say I loved it, but I enjoyed it a lot and found it sat very well with me after a day or two. I had low expectations which might have helped, but it's the most interesting of Smith's films (especially considering movies like Red State, which have very intriguing premises only to utilise them in the most amateur and dull way). The big speeches came off well and their prolonged lengths for a lot of it let the situations breathe and come off as a bit more authentic (for a 'View Askew' movie, anyways). It's frustrating he'll never grow as an artist and Chasing Amy will be the best thing he makes, because there's some real glimpses of *something* there that he'll never really achieve. I like Clerks and Dogma too. Even Zack and Miri has its moments. If someone were to ask me if I was a Kevin Smith fan I'd probably say no, but 4 out of 10 isn't a horrific strike rate and I am lukewarm on Mallrats if that counts.
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Jan 13, 2014 05:50
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I still don't get Holden's decision at the end. I mean, he sat through the lectures by both Dwight and later Silent Bob. And that's what he concludes is the right decision?
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Jan 13, 2014 05:53
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I think he's just trying to look at through his own bizarre logic without actually thinking realistically about the repercussions. Which kinda ties in to the original thing with Alyssa and her past in that he just believes what he wants to believe.
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Jan 13, 2014 09:24
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The whole thing reeks of trying to distance himself from the person he already is without any actual self-awareness or development. He has one character who is always wrong and 'the dumb one' say all the 'jokes' and 'funny' observations that would be too offensive for his main character to do, thus making them likable enough that we care about him - but that character is also shown to be an idiot and 'make mistakes'. This character is meant to be Smith himself, and since this is based on real events the character has to fail already - but in the film he fails in an 'acceptable' way because all the more dumb and problematic poo poo got shifted onto the Idiot Character who Smith isn't like at all no sirree. Then we skip ahead a year to when the character suddenly is older and wiser, and has suddenly 'learned his lesson'. This is meant to be Smith as he is now, finally ready to accept his mistake, learn from it and be a better person. But we don't see how or why this change happens. The movie skips the central moment of character development for its central character. This is because Smith doesn't know what that moment is, or how someone would get better like that. It's a mystery to him - that's why we have present-day Kevin Smith. He never developed, and in real life you can't just skip a year and suddenly be a better person. Smith tries to seem self-aware and aloof so he's effectively bulletproof to criticism, while simultaneously an idiot who can't respond to critics. I feel kinda bad for him because he appears to live in a perpetual cycle of self-hatred and self-denial. If he got over himself he'd be a better filmmaker. He managed to make a story about not knowing his lenses into a criticism of Bruce Willis. Did he learn the lenses for the next movie? I hope he has. Edit: I am a filmmaker myself so I have special permission to criticise Kevin Smith, if I'm over-reaching in my analysis it's because I am exactly as crazy as him at my core. Hbomberguy fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Jan 13, 2014 |
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Jan 13, 2014 16:59
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How the gently caress does someone whose been making movies for 20 years not know lenses? It's not really that complicated. You could learn that poo poo with a couple of hours of research. I've liked most Kevin Smith movies I've seen and I think his talks can be pretty funny but that's just embarrassingly lazy and unambitious. I don't really get why someone that doesn't seem to want understand the basics of film making would want to be a filmmaker.
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Jan 13, 2014 19:02
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FreudianSlippers posted:How the gently caress does someone whose been making movies for 20 years not know lenses? He knows lenses. He just didn't know the actual terms for them. In the past he'd basically just point and go "I need that one." He knew which one it was that he wanted and what it did, just not the name of it. Still unprofessional, I agree. But it's not like he came to work one day and saw a cache of lenses in a box and went "What are these for?" You can still hate him, but I feel it's important to do so within the correct context.
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Jan 13, 2014 23:09
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I don't think he even knew which one he 'wanted', it sounds like his cinematographer did all the work and smith knew vague hand signals instead of focal lengths. Do old film movie cameras have ISO and aperture f-stop stuff to worry about as well? Because if so that's another whole kettle of chips. I'm imagining a world where his cinematographer was sick for a day and all the footage he shot came back pure black or white 'but the f-stop was 22! That's the MOST f-stops! Surely that's enough! Clearly, the lesson here, is that Bruce Willis is a monster.'
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Jan 14, 2014 04:48
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Hbomberguy posted:Edit: I am a filmmaker myself so I have special permission to criticise Kevin Smith, Hbomberguy posted:Do old film movie cameras have ISO and aperture f-stop stuff to worry about as well?
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Jan 14, 2014 06:36
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Hbomberguy posted:I don't think he even knew which one he 'wanted', it sounds like his cinematographer did all the work and smith knew vague hand signals instead of focal lengths. Do old film movie cameras have ISO and aperture f-stop stuff to worry about as well? Because if so that's another whole kettle of chips. I'm imagining a world where his cinematographer was sick for a day and all the footage he shot came back pure black or white 'but the f-stop was 22! That's the MOST f-stops! Surely that's enough! Clearly, the lesson here, is that Bruce Willis is a monster.' Do most directors just operate the cameras themselves when their cinematographers get sick?
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Jan 14, 2014 06:48
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Malaleb posted:Do most directors just operate the cameras themselves when their cinematographers get sick? No, but for the purposes of the joke let's postulate that he does. Also, I have never used one of the older Film-type cameras. They've been on the way out for a while, and way more expensive than would be necessary. Having to buy multiple different ISO grade stock is bullshit too. DSLR supremacy
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Jan 14, 2014 07:07
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Hbomberguy posted:No, but for the purposes of the joke let's postulate that he does. You are nevertheless apparently completely ignorant about the basic universal ideas inherent in any camera if you think things like light sensitivity or f-stop are some sort of recent development and not like a hundred and fifty years old
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Jan 14, 2014 07:14
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Two Worlds posted:You are nevertheless apparently completely ignorant about the basic universal ideas inherent in any camera if you think things like light sensitivity or f-stop are some sort of recent development and not like a hundred and fifty years old I think you've misinterpreted what I said. Since physical film (not still, I can use those) cameras are not my expertise I didn't want to presume to know they worked the same way as cameras I do use, even though I'm 99% sure. But for all I know, big movie camera lenses have apertures that don't change, and are pre-set, and combined with the fact ISO is a part of film stock those aspects might literally be something Smith never ever had to even learn of, never mind about.
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Jan 14, 2014 07:56
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Hbomberguy posted:I think you've misinterpreted what I said. Since physical film (not still, I can use those) cameras are not my expertise I didn't want to presume to know they worked the same way as cameras I do use, even though I'm 99% sure. But for all I know, big movie camera lenses have apertures that don't change, and are pre-set, and combined with the fact ISO is a part of film stock those aspects might literally be something Smith never ever had to even learn of, never mind about. Might I suggest doing more research about all the overwhelming number of basic things you don't understand before mocking known idiot giant infant Kevin Smith for his willful ignorance in the same field?
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Jan 14, 2014 09:59
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Hbomberguy posted:I think you've misinterpreted what I said. Since physical film (not still, I can use those) cameras are not my expertise I didn't want to presume to know they worked the same way as cameras I do use, even though I'm 99% sure. But for all I know, big movie camera lenses have apertures that don't change, and are pre-set, and combined with the fact ISO is a part of film stock those aspects might literally be something Smith never ever had to even learn of, never mind about. Good lord. It's just generally a rule of thumb that, y'know, if you're going to build your whole professional life around something you should at least kinda figure out the basics of it? (Hint: this goes for you, too, buppa)
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Jan 14, 2014 10:19
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Hbomberguy posted:No, but for the purposes of the joke let's postulate that he does. Everyone relax! Hbomberguy is here! Cinema is saved!
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Jan 14, 2014 11:56
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To be fair, it's also been a while since I used a Horse-type carriage.
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Jan 14, 2014 13:01
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I greatly enjoy the entirely arbitrary "way more expensive than would be necessary"
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Jan 14, 2014 13:20
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My question was pertinent to smith. I was tacitly asking 'would Smith ever encounter these basic things on-set in the 90's or would there have been multiple people doing it for him, thus making him not knowing it all that bad?' rather than 'how do old movie cameras work, I have literally no idea?' I do not know what cameras or lenses Miramax productions used back then. Do you folks know? This is a serious question, I'm actually kind of interested now
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Jan 14, 2014 18:40
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