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duck monster
Dec 15, 2004



Lately I've been noticing bit of a trend where I'm continuously working with new coders, particularly younger ones, with no Linux/BSD sysadmin skills at all. This seems really strange to me, because I've always figured tech interests come in clusters. I work with a combination of mac,ios and linux technologies, occasionally BSD, usually writing web apps in Django (or PHP *shudder*) often with ipad or iphone front ends via a JSON style rest interfaces. Having worked with other back end coders I'm finding continously guys with *no idea* how to even log in to a linux box, let alone provision one , keep the security up to date and generally sysadmin.

This is fundamental stuff and more to the point its necessary stuff for working in an ecosystem of software. If you want to send mail, you need to understand MTAs. If you want to interact with company data, chances are you need to understand LDAP (or its microsoft mutant sibbling, Active directory, largely interchangeable). If you want to do something fancy with dev environments,you need to configure apache/litehttp/whatever). Need recurring tasks, crontab is your friend. Further, modern technologies like Vagrant and so on make this poo poo *dead easy* to build to a replica of the final environment and deploy cleanly.

God help you if you want to deploy to Amazon and don't understand SSH keys, your hosed before you even started.

So what is it? I can only assume similar stupidities happen over in the windows world, and although I wouldn't know how to bully around a windows server beyond NT4 (But I bet I can still remember all those awful loving registry keys!) I dont code in dot net or java if I can avoid it and don't apply for those jobs.

So why are people applying for php/python/etc jobs who can't even loving log in to a unix box without having their hands held?

The end result of all this is instead of being a senior coder or project manager, I end up being the server janitor because no one else knows how. This isn't cool at all! Whats going on with IT education?

Even worse is when I'm not in there as the project manager, and said project manager decides that a shithost cpanel account that does PHP or bust will suffice to host the Django/Java clusterfuck we've built except it doesn't and now we're locked into it somehow because the client is a lovely megacorp that makes decisions at glacial paces. THIS IS CURRENTLY HAPPENING TO ME

Am I the only one seeing this?

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duck monster
Dec 15, 2004



Also whoever invented web control panels needs to get murdered before he was born by time travellers because holy poo poo.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

?


duck monster posted:

Lately I've been noticing bit of a trend where I'm continuously working with new coders, particularly younger ones, with no Linux/BSD sysadmin skills at all. This seems really strange to me, because I've always figured tech interests come in clusters. I work with a combination of mac,ios and linux technologies, occasionally BSD, usually writing web apps in Django (or PHP *shudder*) often with ipad or iphone front ends via a JSON style rest interfaces. Having worked with other back end coders I'm finding continously guys with *no idea* how to even log in to a linux box, let alone provision one , keep the security up to date and generally sysadmin.

This is fundamental stuff and more to the point its necessary stuff for working in an ecosystem of software. If you want to send mail, you need to understand MTAs. If you want to interact with company data, chances are you need to understand LDAP (or its microsoft mutant sibbling, Active directory, largely interchangeable). If you want to do something fancy with dev environments,you need to configure apache/litehttp/whatever). Need recurring tasks, crontab is your friend. Further, modern technologies like Vagrant and so on make this poo poo *dead easy* to build to a replica of the final environment and deploy cleanly.

God help you if you want to deploy to Amazon and don't understand SSH keys, your hosed before you even started.

So what is it? I can only assume similar stupidities happen over in the windows world, and although I wouldn't know how to bully around a windows server beyond NT4 (But I bet I can still remember all those awful loving registry keys!) I dont code in dot net or java if I can avoid it and don't apply for those jobs.

So why are people applying for php/python/etc jobs who can't even loving log in to a unix box without having their hands held?

The end result of all this is instead of being a senior coder or project manager, I end up being the server janitor because no one else knows how. This isn't cool at all! Whats going on with IT education?

Even worse is when I'm not in there as the project manager, and said project manager decides that a shithost cpanel account that does PHP or bust will suffice to host the Django/Java clusterfuck we've built except it doesn't and now we're locked into it somehow because the client is a lovely megacorp that makes decisions at glacial paces. THIS IS CURRENTLY HAPPENING TO ME

Am I the only one seeing this?

So I assume you have an opening?

duck monster
Dec 15, 2004



Pollyanna posted:

So I assume you have an opening?

Sure , if you want to work for free because I'm poor.

OneEightHundred
Feb 28, 2008

Soon, we will be unstoppable!


The simple answer is that it's a different skill/knowledge set. Programming often relies on the implied promise that whatever the software is talking to actually works, and a lot of sysadmin stuff is on the other side of that promise. Figuring out why Windows Authentication works fine in the dev sandbox but not in production isn't programming.

The Gripper
Sep 14, 2004
i am winner


duck monster posted:

The end result of all this is instead of being a senior coder or project manager, I end up being the server janitor because no one else knows how. This isn't cool at all! Whats going on with IT education?
I've worked in a few places where this is the case. Kind of like "we're not looking for a Senior developer because we want someone with experience, we're looking because we want someone that can offset the terribleness of other people".

OneEightHundred posted:

Figuring out why Windows Authentication works fine in the dev sandbox but not in production isn't programming.
Probably not, but I'd still expect the programmer to be able to dig up enough info to rule out their own code as the problem. Not being able to log into the dev server to check logs is definitely going to affect that.

Brain Candy
May 18, 2006

Tastes like chicken.

duck monster posted:

The end result of all this is instead of being a senior coder or project manager, I end up being the server janitor because no one else knows how. This isn't cool at all! Whats going on with IT education?

quote:

Once a renowned philosopher and moralist was traveling through Nasruddin's village and asked Nasruddin where there was a good place to eat. Nasruddin suggested a place and the scholar, hungry for conversation, invited Mullah Nasruddin to join him. Much obliged, Mullah Nasruddin accompanied the scholar to a nearby restaurant, where they asked the waiter about the special of the day.

"Fish! Fresh Fish!" replied the waiter.

"Bring us two," they requested.

A few minutes later, the waiter brought out a large platter with two cooked fish on it, one of which was quite a bit smaller than the other. Without hesitating, Mullah Nasruddin took the larger of the fish and put in on his plate. The scholar, giving Mullah Nasruddin a look of intense disbelief, proceed to tell him that what he did was not only flagrantly selfish, but that it violated the principles of almost every known moral, religious, and ethical system. Mullah Nasruddin listened to the philosopher's extempore lecture patiently, and when he had finally exhausted his resources, Mullah Nasruddin said,

"Well, Sir, what would you have done?"

"I, being a conscientious human, would have taken the smaller fish for myself." said the scholar.
"And here you are," Mullah Nasrudin said, and placed the smaller fish on the gentleman's plate.

forelle
Oct 9, 2004

Two fine trout

I don't expect the sysadmins to touch the codebase and I don't expect my devs to sysadmin their own boxes.

I'd actually get pretty annoyed if my developers were having to spend their time on routine box management rather than coding.

If there is a requirement to perform system tasks to get the software they are writing to work, then cool, but general sysadmin (i.e. getting the build and work environment running) is not their job.

In an ideal world on their first day the developers would sit down at a machine, log-in and start coding. If the machine dies a new machine turns up, they login and continue coding.

Some places I've worked at consider configuring your own machine and build environment a right-of-passage which is total bullshit. Especially in Windows where it can take days to get everything you need installed, licensed, checked and running.

forelle fucked around with this message at Jan 9, 2014 around 12:58

duck monster
Dec 15, 2004



I'm OK if coders never actually *do* sysadmin (Although in a small operation, being able to *competently* deploy software sure is handy), but software doesn't exist in a vacuum and despite the best attempts of the software world to write "write once run anywhere" , it just doesn't exist. Understanding the server, surely should be a prerequisite of writing for it.

I mean in some respects thats the evil genius of PHP or Java, you sort of can ignore the hardware, but the minute the job involves thinking outside the sandbox, your hosed if you dont understand the environment your software runs in.

And thats the bigger picture. I just think a lot of devs have no loving idea what happens outside their code.

Forelle: Thats fine in larger organizations, but I work in the startup world where theres usually 2-3 coders, me and some idiot baby entrepeneur who's only value in the organization is its his money. In that situation if you can't sysadmin, your making the greybeard (me) spend time on stopping the lovely startup from crashing into the ball of flames it deserves to be, and if I'm not doing it, the idiot baby rich guy is, and thats how startups fail. Last job i had I spent 80% of my time sysadmining because not *one* of the coders could loving sysadmin, and consequently the actual reason I was there, being the 2IC of the company and the guy who actually had a clue, meant the manchild loving knob of a CEO got to work unsupervised until he blew all the investors cash and we crashed. I mean there where bigger problems than that, but holy poo poo did i find it loving strange these kids had no idea how our infrastructure worked nor had the capacity to work it out.

duck monster fucked around with this message at Jan 9, 2014 around 16:09

Gazpacho
Jun 18, 2004



Programmers are not fundamentally different from other users in wanting a system that "just works." They're not different in that they have to learn things before knowing them.

When I have to spend most of my first day on a job getting the whole Ui stack to agree on what the backspace key is, I dare say this isn't because I am dumb. If I spend two hours (as I did yesterday) trying to figure out how to keep X11 running while switching between two runlevels and finally give up, that's not because I am dumb. It's because Unix systems are old and crufty and designed for programmers who expected a lot less.

Gazpacho fucked around with this message at Jan 9, 2014 around 16:22

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

?


OP I'm job hunting and I see "must be proficient with linux and version control systems". I know my way around an OSX terminal and I can use git with a degree of competency. Does that count?

Gazpacho posted:

When I have to spend most of my first day on a job getting the whole Ui stack to agree on what the backspace key is, I dare say this isn't because I am dumb. If I spend two hours (as I did yesterday) trying to figure out how to keep X11 running while switching between two runlevels and finally give up, that's not because I am dumb. It's because Unix systems are old and crufty and designed for programmers who expected a lot less.

No you see, if you can't do a bunch of redundant poo poo all from the ground up and enjoy it then you are a piece of poo poo programmer, clearly.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

?


q!=e

Gazpacho
Jun 18, 2004



However if you insist on not retaining what the greybeard teaches you and instead bug him every time over the same things, then GTFO.

More to the point, you have to eventually accept that you've chosen to be in the business, and use the resources at hand to improve your skills.

e: By the way Duck, stop by YOSPOS now and then. We've never had a proper COBOL dev.

Gazpacho fucked around with this message at Jan 9, 2014 around 17:43

ManoliIsFat
Oct 4, 2002



Gazpacho posted:

Programmers are not fundamentally different from other users in wanting a system that "just works." They're not different in that they have to learn things before knowing them.
I used to really enjoy Windows sysadmin and stuff as a kid, and now after programming professionaly for a decade I absolutely can't stand it. I was so overjoyed when we hired a sysadmin at my old job. No more changing out hardrives, no more "my internet doesn't work" instant messages. Now I've moved to a startup and get all the emails all day "hey can you set up an email list" "hey i can't login can you fix it for me" and it's just such boring poo poo I cannot stand it.

Now linux sysadmin, I absolutely love. Maybe it's because it's so developer centric, so essential for the environment I'm creating for an application, that it feels like an extension of coding+architecture. I learned Mandrake and RedHat when I was a kid, and my college education was very linux-centric (everyone had a console tied to our student accounts), so maybe I'm at an advantage.

But I'm with the OP, maybe you don't wanna be doing the bitch work of sysadmin, but you should at least have a basic understanding of what's happening, or else how do you know what's going on? Most setups aren't too crazy, some web servers, some databases, some MTAs...that's usually about it.

xpander
Sep 2, 2004


If you're working at some behemoth tech company and can more easily live in the sandbox, I don't see why you should have to learn something which is technically outside your skillset/part of another position or department. However, startups not having any systems people is pretty silly. I enjoy working at smaller outfits, and it's simply not possible to keep your career blinders on and expect to enjoy success. I think it's honestly shortsighted to not have a basic understanding of how your poo poo works on the other side. At the very least, it might prevent a small measure of "I tossed my code over the wall, cya later shitlords".

OneEightHundred
Feb 28, 2008

Soon, we will be unstoppable!


duck monster posted:

I'm OK if coders never actually *do* sysadmin (Although in a small operation, being able to *competently* deploy software sure is handy), but software doesn't exist in a vacuum and despite the best attempts of the software world to write "write once run anywhere" , it just doesn't exist. Understanding the server, surely should be a prerequisite of writing for it.

I mean in some respects thats the evil genius of PHP or Java, you sort of can ignore the hardware, but the minute the job involves thinking outside the sandbox, your hosed if you dont understand the environment your software runs in.
Multi-discipline experience is helpful, but it also costs time, and fixing cross-discipline problems efficiently costs even more time. The worlds are far enough apart that it's usually more cost-effective to throw programmers at the problems they're good at (writing software) and throw people good at fixing hosed configs at those. It's not really any more reasonable to expect programmers to fix a misconfigured installation than it is to expect them to fix hardware failures, and the same things you've said apply there too.

And yes, you do have to wear more hats in the startup world, but you can also outsource and contract that sort of thing, it's probably more efficient than cutting a programmer-sized paycheck for amateurish sysadmin work.

Gazpacho
Jun 18, 2004



xpander posted:

If you're working at some behemoth tech company and can more easily live in the sandbox, I don't see why you should have to learn something which is technically outside your skillset
Fun fact: when you report for dev work at Microsoft, you get a PC with a blank HD and your immediate task is to install and set up everything you need from the network. I wouldn't be surprised if a few contract devs wash out at that point.

dexter
Jun 24, 2003


forelle posted:

I don't expect the sysadmins to touch the codebase and I don't expect my devs to sysadmin their own boxes.

I'd actually get pretty annoyed if my developers were having to spend their time on routine box management rather than coding.

If there is a requirement to perform system tasks to get the software they are writing to work, then cool, but general sysadmin (i.e. getting the build and work environment running) is not their job.

In an ideal world on their first day the developers would sit down at a machine, log-in and start coding. If the machine dies a new machine turns up, they login and continue coding.

Some places I've worked at consider configuring your own machine and build environment a right-of-passage which is total bullshit. Especially in Windows where it can take days to get everything you need installed, licensed, checked and running.

New developers are given a machine with ruby, xcode and our development tools preinstalled system-wide and instructions to create an account and then they go through a web-based tool that brings in a bunch of development dependencies, installs VirtualBox and vagrant and sets up a working instance of every single application they would develop for. They can be ready to deploy code within an hour of starting their Mac. Front-end developers don't give a poo poo about configuring nginx and unless they want to learn there's no reason for them to mess with it.

Obviously that isn't easily accessible at two or three person startups unless someone has a strong sysadmin background (and the knowledge/drive to leverage stuff like Puppet, Chef or Boxen) to implement everything.

You can hire someone that has sysadmin experience or use something like Heroku or another PaaS provider to abstract all of that work away. Either way, there's no excuse for getting irritated with developer coworkers that don't have administration skills; that's a separate discipline from development. Some of the best developers I know have zero administration skills.

We encourage developers to learn as much about the systems-side of our operation as possible. Everyone is welcome to contribute to our configuration management repositories and has access to deploy to stagings and production but it's not expected of anyone outside of the operations team. Our team consists of both people from pure-sysadmin and development background and a few (like myself) that have a split background. We're ecstatic and absolutely supportive when developers show an interest in and learn/contribute to the operations side of things though.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

?


I mean I can learn to do sysadmin stuff. It's not outside the realm of possibility, I just haven't had to do it before and have no real need for, like, SSHing into a Linux box. If I ever get hired to a company that has that sort of infrastructure then I will pick it up quickly enough.

Brain Candy
May 18, 2006

Tastes like chicken.

Pollyanna posted:

I mean I can learn to do sysadmin stuff. It's not outside the realm of possibility, I just haven't had to do it before and have no real need for, like, SSHing into a Linux box. If I ever get hired to a company that has that sort of infrastructure then I will pick it up quickly enough.

You don't do anything interesting yet, hth.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

?


But I will soon!

Brain Candy
May 18, 2006

Tastes like chicken.

Pollyanna posted:

But I will soon!

Keep it up kid, we'll turn you into a burnt-out husk soon enough.


duck monster posted:

The end result of all this is instead of being a senior coder or project manager, I end up being the server janitor because no one else knows how. This isn't cool at all! Whats going on with IT education?

duck monster posted:

Forelle: Thats fine in larger organizations, but I work in the startup world where theres usually 2-3 coders, me and some idiot baby entrepeneur who's only value in the organization is its his money. In that situation if you can't sysadmin, your making the greybeard (me) spend time on stopping the lovely startup from crashing into the ball of flames it deserves to be, and if I'm not doing it, the idiot baby rich guy is, and thats how startups fail. Last job i had I spent 80% of my time sysadmining because not *one* of the coders could loving sysadmin, and consequently the actual reason I was there, being the 2IC of the company and the guy who actually had a clue, meant the manchild loving knob of a CEO got to work unsupervised until he blew all the investors cash and we crashed. I mean there where bigger problems than that, but holy poo poo did i find it loving strange these kids had no idea how our infrastructure worked nor had the capacity to work it out.

In what universe are the people who don't hire someone specifically to care of ops going to succeed except by the greater idiot model? Aren't you ignoring viability to chase that sweet investor money anyway?

Woodsy Owl
Oct 26, 2004


I've majored in CS at two different universities, neither of which have anything but cursory courses in administration-related topics. Undergraduates are required to take an Introduction to Unix course and the required networking courses don't focus on how to build and maintain networks. For elective credits, there are some introductory network administration courses but they aren't too popular.

Zorn
Oct 24, 2000


lol if you think programmers should debase themselves and deal with your stupid computer janitor problems. you're hired to deal with that poo poo so they don't have to.

Sir_Substance
Dec 13, 2013

Knowledge is the new power, but will never provide a stable baseload as cost effective as burning puppies.


There are two very good reasons why most programmers are garbage sysadmins:

1. They don't get anything out of it.

Nowhere where I have worked have I, as a software engineer, ben given full admin rights to any of the organisations machines. On the odd occasion where I've gotten full admin rights either by running VM's or bringing in my own PC, the sysadmins have generally gone procedurally apeshit on me, tying my up in paperwork to approve my machines being on their system and all sorts of garbage.

Well, fine. gently caress you. It's not in my job description to do this crap anyway. If you tie my up in knots whenever I try to do your job for you, then I'll just pester you to do your own job, and blame you if you take so long doing it that it impedes my job. See if I give a poo poo.

2. Their managers don't want them to do it.

Programmers are on average more expensive then sysadmins. If you have programmers doing sysadmin work, you are pissing money away. This is why you shouldn't be using your programmers to test, either.

Sir_Substance fucked around with this message at Jan 10, 2014 around 07:30

dexter
Jun 24, 2003


Sir_Substance posted:

There are two very good reasons why most programmers are garbage sysadmins:

1. They don't get anything out of it.

Nowhere where I have worked have I, as a software engineer, ben given full admin rights to any of the organisations machines. On the odd occasion where I've gotten full admin rights either by running VM's or bringing in my own PC, the sysadmins have generally gone procedurally apeshit on me, tying my up in paperwork to approve my machines being on their system and all sorts of garbage.

Well, fine. gently caress you. It's not in my job description to do this crap anyway. If you tie my up in knots whenever I try to do your job for you, then I'll just pester you to do your own job, and blame you if you take so long doing it that it impedes my job. See if I give a poo poo.

I see that as a huge problem. If you're a developer you're probably smart enough to work around any restrictions placed on your (and understand the risks of it so you wouldn't be doing anything stupid.) There's no excuse for developer machines to be locked down (outside of restrictions around clearances and such.)

Sir_Substance posted:

2. Their managers don't want them to do it.

Programmers are on average more expensive then sysadmins. If you have programmers doing sysadmin work, you are pissing money away. This is why you shouldn't be using your programmers to test, either.

Good operations people are harder to find than developers. You may end up paying that developer more per year but recruiting costs and referral bonus are higher for operations at most companies that I know of.

FamDav
Mar 29, 2008



dexter posted:

(and understand the risks of it so you wouldn't be doing anything stupid.)

The former does not imply the latter.

Also you should have ops dudes but also dev dudes working on better ops tools.

Gazpacho
Jun 18, 2004



I've never worked in a startup that provided IT services but intuitively it doesn't seem like the most desirable thing to have every dev potentially setting up servers on their own. Aside from the risks of leaving security holes open, you're opening up a temptation to show off in an area where KISS ought to be the rule for support's sake.

duck monster
Dec 15, 2004



Gazpacho posted:

e: By the way Duck, stop by YOSPOS now and then. We've never had a proper COBOL dev.

That was literally my job in the early 90s

Otto Skorzeny
Nov 7, 2008

He's a PSoC, loose and runnin'
came the whisper from each lip
And he's here to do some business with
the bad ADC on his chip
bad ADC on his chiiiiip


come to #cobol to bitch about cobol

vty
Nov 8, 2007

oh dott, oh dott!


I'm DevOps. I don't want pure programmers anywhere near server ops.

There's a huge possibility that you'll be working on something that is a problem throughout the environment and I'll never hear about it because you fixed it in your siloed instances. Things like that.

deimos
Nov 30, 2006

Forget it man this bat is whack, it's got poobrain!


Some programmers in my company don't know how to find out their own IP address. Or what IP addresses really are. Or know remotely how DNS works (and I mean a cursory knowledge). Or what virtual hosts are (and therefore their limitations).

They are web developers.

I can kind of see where duck monster is coming from TBH.

Just because a programmer isn't a DBA doesn't mean he can violate every rule of common sense when interacting with a DB. Oh, our programmers do that too, 130K DB queries on some pageviews before I have to go in and fix their poo poo, although this is mostly consultants that are guilty of this.

hedgecore
May 2, 2004


Probably because they're junior level developer applicants?

down with slavery
Dec 23, 2013
STOP QUOTING MY POSTS SO PEOPLE THAT AREN'T IDIOTS DON'T HAVE TO READ MY FUCKING TERRIBLE OPINIONS THANKS

hedgecore posted:

Probably because they're junior level developer applicants?

This.

Pay for skills if you want skills.

You know how it's really awesome to be a programmer now because there's tons of jobs and lots of money out there? If you're getting bad applicants, might be time to re-evaluate how you're getting them.

shodanjr_gr
Nov 20, 2007
Goon from Greece



Gazpacho posted:

Fun fact: when you report for dev work at Microsoft, you get a PC with a blank HD and your immediate task is to install and set up everything you need from the network. I wouldn't be surprised if a few contract devs wash out at that point.

But they also get access to an awesome software deployment setup, which makes it trivially easy to get up and running if you are remotely tech savvy and willing to spend a few hours searching through internal wikis and whatnot.

There's degrees to this...expecting a software developer to have readily available in-depth knowledge of the inner workings of both Windows AND Linux unfair...it's a different skillset and if they are capable of managing both to a professional extend, it probably means that they've spent less time actually learning how to develop than they are supposed to...

However, I've had plenty of CS grads come up to me and say "Software X is crashing, what should I do" with no attempt to investigate or fix the problem on their own. I'm thinking that the OP is greatly annoyed at THOSE kinds of people, lazy and not really interested in what they are trying to do...

Otto Skorzeny
Nov 7, 2008

He's a PSoC, loose and runnin'
came the whisper from each lip
And he's here to do some business with
the bad ADC on his chip
bad ADC on his chiiiiip


In every industry, the cobbler's kids have no shoes. MechE's don't all replace their own timing belts, and I'm not going to dig through a coredump if Winamp crashes (or anything else beyond googling distinctive-looking strings in an error message, really) unless I'm astoundingly bored.

etcetera08
Sep 11, 2008



I don't really give a gently caress if you know how to configure nginx or write an init script, but for gently caress's sake stop loving up git commits and learn how to use a goddamn CLI, your idiot, free poo poo GUI obviously isn't doing it.

duck monster
Dec 15, 2004



Zorn posted:

lol if you think programmers should debase themselves and deal with your stupid computer janitor problems. you're hired to deal with that poo poo so they don't have to.

No I'm not.

Dangerllama
Nov 16, 2007



FWIW this is known as full-stack engineering and way too few people have it, on both sides of the DevOps divide.

It makes me stabby every time I hear "I don't care why or how my poo poo runs in production. Here's a link to a repo. Please figure the rest out."

Your code is going to break eventually, and if it's doing anything remotely valuable it's probably going to take other systems with it. You should know enough to help troubleshoot it when it does, because I don't have the time or the inclination to rummage through your (self documenting) code to figure out why my entire production environment is busted at 3am (probably because you started throwing logs somewhere and forgot to tell anyone; I mean, full disk is a sysad problem, amirite?)

Dangerllama fucked around with this message at Jan 11, 2014 around 03:09

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MrMoo
Sep 14, 2000


Dangerllama posted:

You should know enough to help troubleshoot it when it does, because I don't have the time or the inclination to rummage through your (self documenting) code to figure out why my entire production environment is busted at 3am (probably because you started throwing logs somewhere and forgot to tell anyone; I mean, full disk is a sysad problem, amirite?)

You're lucky you have the code, many shops are closed source internally as well as external. It's just another sign of a crap developer that they cannot troubleshoot something as it indicates the code was never developed correctly. This is all highly unsurprising of any large organisation.

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