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Abutiu
Oct 21, 2013


...but I kind of don't think so. I wanted to ask you all for your opinion, though, because right now I'm staying with my mother and my boyfriend is freaking out and talking about never letting dogs in the house again.

So long story short, we went out of town. Everything was good until the last day of the trip, when the petsitter apparently did not spend the night and just briefly checked in that morning. We got home around 5 PM and found the cat dead. The other cats and the dogs were fine.

I looked over the cat's body in detail and there were no puncture wounds, no obvious broken bones, nothing. The only damage to the body was along one flank, which had all the hair pulled out in a huge section (and I'm sure happened after he died). I realize that doesn't rule out internal damage, but here's the thing: I'm really having trouble creating a scenario where my dogs did this without leaving a mark. A friend came over to help dispose of the body and said she was sure the dog had shaken the cat and caused internal bleeding, but this doesn't make sense to me.

Abutiu is the most likely culprit, as she has a strong prey drive (but she is also a herding breed and has good bite inhibition). But she weighs 23 pounds and the cat was both large naturally and overweight, so he weighed 18 pounds. How does a dog pick up and shake a cat that weighs almost as much as she does without gripping him hard enough to leave a mark? And her teeth are like little razors. She makes me bleed sometimes just by accidentally grazing my fingers as I give her treats. How does she kill a cat and not cut it even a little?

The other possible culprit is much larger, and I have seen him attack a rabbit before, when I first got him. But a)he has lived with cats his entire life and never had a problem (which I realize doesn't mean that circumstances didn't align perfectly to create one, but it still makes me question a bit...), and b)his play and attack styles both are to bite, and bite hard. When he attacked the rabbit, the poor thing was bleeding in a second. He puts puncture holes in tug-o'-war toys. And yet he didn't leave a mark on the cat?

I'm also having trouble seeing a scenario where the two dogs are involved (and they'd have to be, one can never do anything exciting without the other joining), killing the cat and then just leaving it there. They play tug and fight for toys constantly, but somehow they just didn't chew or pull apart the cat's body after getting into an excited-enough state to kill him, just pulled out his hair and otherwise left him alone?

I don't know, am I just trying to excuse my dogs? I'm devastated over the cat, but it really looked to me like he died of natural causes and the dogs just played with the body. But my boyfriend and the one friend of ours are convinced they killed the cat, despite the fact that my boyfriend never even looked at the body and the friend's experience amounts to "I had one cat shaken by a dog once, but it didn't die." But I don't know if I actually have any better evidence and am just trying to take the blame off the dogs or what.

My boyfriend took over the disposal and asked them to "look at" the body after I suggested a necropsy so we'd know for sure, but I don't know what that means. I'm kind of freaking out because I love him but honestly I don't think I can get rid of my dogs over this...even beyond the (obvious) emotional stuff, I'm also heavily involved in dog sports and working with them is pretty much my main social circle. It's not just giving up the specific dogs, it would be giving up all of that and I don't think I can do that.

Sorry for the upsetting and kind of e/n post, I'm just trying to make sense of it all.

And please, if you can, don't point out that we should have had them separated or whatever. We realize that in hindsight. We chose not to because the pet sitter would be gone most of the day and we felt that was too long for the dogs to be crated, plus the cats have plenty of safe space in the house (two gated-off rooms for them, cat trees, book shelves, etc.) and they'd been fine together for a year at least (when I got Abutiu; the others had been living together longer). At the time I felt our decision was the best one. If my boyfriend and I work this out and have the dogs and cats together again, you can be sure we will never do this again...even if I'm right and the dogs didn't kill the cat, at least it removes the questions.

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mcswizzle
Jul 26, 2009



First sorry, that is a lovely situation.

Second, I can't speak from anything more than experience - Jada (~60 lbs at the moment) likes to play with out ~18-20 lb cat Leo. Like, Leo will lay on the floor, Jada will push him around and lick him and mouth him and is never a problem (and never unsupervised, they are separate during the day when we're not around). jada is 3 times the cats weight and I have no doubt that she could pick him up and swing him like a baseball player and a bat.

But the cat is fast...even being big and overweight (just like you described yours) he can get away from Jada any time he wants. The problem is when Artemis joins in (incredibly infrequent) and both of them tag-team Leo he has problems getting away because they'll come from both sides. And even then, most of the time he gets away just fine, but maybe 1 in 5 times the dogs will basically lay on top of him and keep him from getting anywhere. And I am positive that if anything bad were to happen, it would be incredibly clear that the dogs would be the cause.

Again, my own experience, but I'm with you and I think that it is more likely that it was not directly dog-related. Now, if the cat tried jumping down from a height and the dog interrupted and spoiled the landing, and he got hurt? Unlikely but I think it would maybe explain the lack of marks, possible internal injuries. If you get the Necropsy I'm sure that would have a lot more information.

Again, sorry for your loss

Abutiu
Oct 21, 2013


Thanks, and yeah, that's pretty much right along what I was thinking. Where we found the cat, he had plenty of space to get away from the dogs, and he is fast. Plus, he doesn't run. I've never seen them chase that cat. Abutiu would sometimes wrestle (gently) with him, but back off when he hissed. The other dog, Bandit, just ignores the cats unless they are running. I am confident he could get away from one or the other easily. If they teamed up on him I could see them getting him, but that just seems unlikely to me--or, like I said, if it did happen I can't imagine they wouldn't have tugged with the body and caused at least some damage.

I can easily accept that the dogs could kill a cat. I'm the first one to tell people that any dog can bite or whatever in the right situation, and I really believe that. I just can't figure out how they could escalate enough to kill him without doing anything but pulling hair out. And honestly, even that looked more to me like they might have mostly licked it off or something. It wasn't pulled out in a way that damaged the skin, and we didn't find most of it, just a few tufts. He looked like he'd been shaved (minus the peach fuzz) rather than chewed on.

Sorry to be dumping all these gory details, I'm just trying to process it.

Pardalis
Dec 26, 2008

The Amazing Dreadheaded Chameleon Keeper


From what you describe, it sounds like your cat passed from something unrelated to the dogs and they then licked/pulled fur off after that. Maybe your cat had a seizure or blood clot and your dogs freaked and licked it bald? I really doubt they would have killed the cat if you hadn't had problems before and kitty had no breaks, bruises, or tears visible.

I'm so sorry for your loss. It might help to remind your partner (and yourself!) that we often try to look for something to blame in situations like this as a coping mechanism when often it is just bad luck. Your pets are obviously well cared for and loved; ultimately that is all you can offer.

wtftastic
Jul 24, 2006

"In private, we will be mercifully free from the opinions of imbeciles and fools."

Pardalis posted:

From what you describe, it sounds like your cat passed from something unrelated to the dogs and they then licked/pulled fur off after that. Maybe your cat had a seizure or blood clot and your dogs freaked and licked it bald? I really doubt they would have killed the cat if you hadn't had problems before and kitty had no breaks, bruises, or tears visible.

I'm so sorry for your loss. It might help to remind your partner (and yourself!) that we often try to look for something to blame in situations like this as a coping mechanism when often it is just bad luck. Your pets are obviously well cared for and loved; ultimately that is all you can offer.

That sounds like a likely explanation.

Sorry for you loss.

HelloSailorSign
Jan 27, 2011


When a dog attacks a cat, there will either be a lot of saliva on the cat or there will be visible puncture wounds and lacerations. The necessary shaking for internal injury usually needs a very strong grip on the part of the dog, generally on the abdomen, otherwise there will be fractures of the spine of ribs that are detectable. In this case, the near same size of the dogs can cat make it very unlikely that they would be able to grab with enough force to do enough damage without leading to external injury.

How old was your cat? I think about sudden death in cats, I think seizures and other Neuro disease, heartworm disease, thyroid disease, and heart disease. All of those could make a cat look externally fine, even for weeks to months beforehand, and suddenly death ensues with no or minimal clinical signs.

Abutiu
Oct 21, 2013


He was 5. I have to admit that he hadn't been to the vet in awhile...the cats are kind of my boyfriend's responsibility, and he was embarrassed about taking them to the vet until they'd lost some weight (yeah, I know). I'd just recently finally gotten him to start them on a diet (nothing extreme at all, just basically measuring their food instead of free-feeding them and cutting out treats). So yeah, it could have been pretty much anything.

Pile of Kittens
Apr 23, 2005

Why does everything STILL smell like pussy?

Well, in the meantime, can you keep the dogs separated so that the cats can always escape from them? That will give you some breathing space in your relationship with your boyfriend until the necropsy comes back. Nobody has to do anything rash like give up the dogs or dump a boyfriend just yet. You can take your time in thinking things through even though I'm sure it feels like an emergency and you have to do something RIGHT NOW. The loss of a pet is traumatic and we always want to find things to blame (like ourselves) but with time you are able to think about things in a more clearheaded manner.

kazmeyer
Jul 26, 2001

'Cause we're the good guys.



I know that sometimes when a guinea pig dies, the other members of the herd try to wake him up by nudging, nipping, biting, and even pulling out clumps of hair, and more than one owner has freaked out thinking the other pigs attacked and killed their herdmate. It definitely could have happened post-mortem. Hopefully the vet's examination will answer your questions.

Velvet Sparrow
May 15, 2006

'Hope' is the thing with feathers, that perches in the soul, and sings the tune, without the words, and never stops--at all.

kazmeyer posted:

I know that sometimes when a guinea pig dies, the other members of the herd try to wake him up by nudging, nipping, biting, and even pulling out clumps of hair, and more than one owner has freaked out thinking the other pigs attacked and killed their herdmate. It definitely could have happened post-mortem. Hopefully the vet's examination will answer your questions.

I just wanted to pause and reflect on majestic herds of guinea pigs...covering the plains as far as the eye can see.

Abutiu
Oct 21, 2013


Velvet Sparrow posted:

I just wanted to pause and reflect on majestic herds of guinea pigs...covering the plains as far as the eye can see.

*wipes a tear from her eye*

On a serious note, re: the necropsy...it didn't happen. My boyfriend took the body to a pet crematorium without a vet on staff and asked them to look over the body. They said he died of "head and neck trauma"...which I'm sorry, but I think that's bullshit. I'm not a pathologist but I have worked as a vet tech, seen a lot of dead animals living on farms (including ones killed by predators), and I think I would have noticed that trauma when I looked at the body. It wasn't a super-thorough exam but I spent like 15-20 minutes looking at it, and there was no saliva around the head/neck/upper shoulder area, there were no visibly broken bones, and no puncture wounds or bruising or other injury. If they'd said spinal injury, sure, I could accept that. But head/neck? I just don't see it.

Right now it doesn't really matter though. He kicked me out and he's refusing to let dogs in the house (he owns it). It seems so stupid and ridiculous to me...I am heartbroken over our cat but he is making me either get rid of 3 dogs (and realistically, I'd probably have to euthanize my blind dog...an elderly blind dog who is wary of strangers and has a history of fear-biting even if it was years ago? yeah, there aren't many homes for him), plus the agility and search-and-rescue work I do with them (which is pretty much my whole social circle). He's throwing away either a huge part of my life, plus dogs that he himself loves, or our relationship. And honestly, I've already given up a lot to be with him...willingly, because I love him, but I can't give up my dogs.

This is probably veering way out of PI territory but I just don't know what to do. He won't even agree to managing the dogs so they're never around the cats (which would be extremely loving easy, they're all crate-trained or would be fine enclosed in a room when not under direct supervision, and I work from home to boot so someone is almost always there with them), he is just mad and won't let them in the house period. One of the dogs wasn't even there, we farmed him out to a friend to ease the pet sitter's burden, and even that dog isn't welcome in the home. It's completely insane to me. Even if the did kill the cat, that was our gently caress up. They're just dogs, and if anything, I blame our loving pet sitter for thinking it was okay to not exercise and just pop in to visit the dogs for 30 minutes or so...she was supposed to be spending the night and exercising Abutiu for at least 45 min a day, which she admitted wasn't happening. edit: and just to be clear, we were explicitly paying her for a high level of exercise and interaction, because I didn't want something like this to happen. I'm still not convinced the dogs killed him (far from it, in fact), but even if I'm wrong it just seems awful to blame the dogs when us humans are the ones who messed up and there are so many ways to make sure this never ever happens again.

Abutiu fucked around with this message at Jan 14, 2014 around 01:43

Skizzles
Feb 21, 2009

Live, Laugh, Love,
Poop in a box.


Your boyfriend is definitely being an childish douche about this. I have nothing constructive to say other than I would either give him some space to calm down and get rational, or call it quits with him.

TVs Ian
Jun 1, 2000

Such graceful, delicate creatures.


Abutiu posted:

*wipes a tear from her eye*

On a serious note, re: the necropsy...it didn't happen. My boyfriend took the body to a pet crematorium without a vet on staff and asked them to look over the body. They said he died of "head and neck trauma"...which I'm sorry, but I think that's bullshit. I'm not a pathologist but I have worked as a vet tech, seen a lot of dead animals living on farms (including ones killed by predators), and I think I would have noticed that trauma when I looked at the body. It wasn't a super-thorough exam but I spent like 15-20 minutes looking at it, and there was no saliva around the head/neck/upper shoulder area, there were no visibly broken bones, and no puncture wounds or bruising or other injury. If they'd said spinal injury, sure, I could accept that. But head/neck? I just don't see it.

Right now it doesn't really matter though. He kicked me out and he's refusing to let dogs in the house (he owns it). It seems so stupid and ridiculous to me...I am heartbroken over our cat but he is making me either get rid of 3 dogs (and realistically, I'd probably have to euthanize my blind dog...an elderly blind dog who is wary of strangers and has a history of fear-biting even if it was years ago? yeah, there aren't many homes for him), plus the agility and search-and-rescue work I do with them (which is pretty much my whole social circle). He's throwing away either a huge part of my life, plus dogs that he himself loves, or our relationship. And honestly, I've already given up a lot to be with him...willingly, because I love him, but I can't give up my dogs.

This is probably veering way out of PI territory but I just don't know what to do. He won't even agree to managing the dogs so they're never around the cats (which would be extremely loving easy, they're all crate-trained or would be fine enclosed in a room when not under direct supervision, and I work from home to boot so someone is almost always there with them), he is just mad and won't let them in the house period. One of the dogs wasn't even there, we farmed him out to a friend to ease the pet sitter's burden, and even that dog isn't welcome in the home. It's completely insane to me. Even if the did kill the cat, that was our gently caress up. They're just dogs, and if anything, I blame our loving pet sitter for thinking it was okay to not exercise and just pop in to visit the dogs for 30 minutes or so...she was supposed to be spending the night and exercising Abutiu for at least 45 min a day, which she admitted wasn't happening. edit: and just to be clear, we were explicitly paying her for a high level of exercise and interaction, because I didn't want something like this to happen. I'm still not convinced the dogs killed him (far from it, in fact), but even if I'm wrong it just seems awful to blame the dogs when us humans are the ones who messed up and there are so many ways to make sure this never ever happens again.

Yyeeeaaaaaahhhhh he's overreacting in a supreme way and if he loving kicked you out over this, no matter how traumatic but he couldn't be arsed to actually go through the proper channels to get a realistic cause of death? Screw him then. That is not the reaction of a mentally stable person.

four lean hounds
Feb 16, 2012


I'm with the posters above me. He's being extremely irrational about this, and totally unfair to you and the dogs. The fact that it has been several days and he hasn't calmed down about the situation speaks of some major issues. I realize that losing a pet is traumatic, and don't expect him to just turn about-face and get over it, but he does not have the right to make the rest of the household suffer for his sake.

catamar
May 23, 2008


He's being completely unreasonable. Do you and the dogs have somewhere safe to stay?

Fluffy Bunnies
Jan 9, 2009

Half Dog.

Half Horse.

All Awesome.

Call the cops. He can't hold your stuff hostage because he's a loving two year old.

Abutiu
Oct 21, 2013


I'm glad to know that at least I'm not being irrational in being pissed at him. He raised the cat from a kitten, I can understand he is devastated, but he's placing blame where it doesn't belong and just compounding the tragedy IMO. I'm still hoping he comes around because we have a few years together and it has been amazing until this, but a part of me just wants to say gently caress it because this is really lovely of him.

Right now we're staying with my mom. We can stay here through the end of the month, and I do have a lot of connections in rescue so worst case scenario I do have temporary foster homes lined up if I can't find a place for us in the whole two weeks or so we have left. But that's part of what is driving me crazy...I don't have a lot of time to figure this out and he just keeps saying, "I need more time." Well, bully for you honey, but I don't loving have that luxury.

edit: he's not holding my stuff hostage. I still have full access to the house. He just asked me to take the dogs elsewhere, which I agreed to out of consideration for him. I'm also afraid for their safety if I was to just move us back in...where we live, he could shoot them and as long as he didn't cause undue suffering, it would be totally legal. I am like 95% sure he wouldn't do that, but I don't want to risk them on that gamble. I could still be in the house, but I don't have a place for my dogs to stay if I'm not there caring for them, if that makes any sense.

Abutiu fucked around with this message at Jan 14, 2014 around 02:21

blue urban dream
Aug 8, 2011


Abutiu posted:

*wipes a tear from her eye*

On a serious note, re: the necropsy...it didn't happen. My boyfriend took the body to a pet crematorium without a vet on staff and asked them to look over the body. They said he died of "head and neck trauma"...which I'm sorry, but I think that's bullshit. I'm not a pathologist but I have worked as a vet tech, seen a lot of dead animals living on farms (including ones killed by predators), and I think I would have noticed that trauma when I looked at the body. It wasn't a super-thorough exam but I spent like 15-20 minutes looking at it, and there was no saliva around the head/neck/upper shoulder area, there were no visibly broken bones, and no puncture wounds or bruising or other injury. If they'd said spinal injury, sure, I could accept that. But head/neck? I just don't see it.

Right now it doesn't really matter though. He kicked me out and he's refusing to let dogs in the house (he owns it). It seems so stupid and ridiculous to me...I am heartbroken over our cat but he is making me either get rid of 3 dogs (and realistically, I'd probably have to euthanize my blind dog...an elderly blind dog who is wary of strangers and has a history of fear-biting even if it was years ago? yeah, there aren't many homes for him), plus the agility and search-and-rescue work I do with them (which is pretty much my whole social circle). He's throwing away either a huge part of my life, plus dogs that he himself loves, or our relationship. And honestly, I've already given up a lot to be with him...willingly, because I love him, but I can't give up my dogs.

This is probably veering way out of PI territory but I just don't know what to do. He won't even agree to managing the dogs so they're never around the cats (which would be extremely loving easy, they're all crate-trained or would be fine enclosed in a room when not under direct supervision, and I work from home to boot so someone is almost always there with them), he is just mad and won't let them in the house period. One of the dogs wasn't even there, we farmed him out to a friend to ease the pet sitter's burden, and even that dog isn't welcome in the home. It's completely insane to me. Even if the did kill the cat, that was our gently caress up. They're just dogs, and if anything, I blame our loving pet sitter for thinking it was okay to not exercise and just pop in to visit the dogs for 30 minutes or so...she was supposed to be spending the night and exercising Abutiu for at least 45 min a day, which she admitted wasn't happening. edit: and just to be clear, we were explicitly paying her for a high level of exercise and interaction, because I didn't want something like this to happen. I'm still not convinced the dogs killed him (far from it, in fact), but even if I'm wrong it just seems awful to blame the dogs when us humans are the ones who messed up and there are so many ways to make sure this never ever happens again.

Seems like he wanted it to be the dogs, asking them at the crematorium instead of getting an actual professional opinion. It might be a grief reaction, wanting something to blame but regardless his way of reacting to it is totally unacceptable, particularly as there is zero actual proof (no bite marks etc). He may calm down and change his mind... though whether you should go back to him in that case is debatable. You deserve better than this.

ETA: Also, if you're only 95% sure that he wouldn't kill your pets on an unfounded assumption...

blue urban dream fucked around with this message at Jan 14, 2014 around 02:30

Tasty_Crayon
Jul 29, 2006
Same story, different version.

He is being a supreme douche. We had a dog that absolutely COULD NOT be around cats (at all, not even supervised), and we found ways to work around it with our three fluffbuts. It was understood that if he had killed any of the cats it would have been a terrible awful thing, but we would not have booted the dog over it. The key is supervision and crating, and it sounds like that would be a piece of cake with your situation.

I can understand his grief but he is loving you over hard and being extremely selfish.

Also, get your money back from that petsitter. If she had been there like she was supposed to she would have at least seen what went down. I would be unbelievably pissed at her.

four lean hounds
Feb 16, 2012


You were forced to consider the fact that, if he wanted, your boyfriend could get away with killing your dogs.

That's a red flag.

Also, gently caress that petsitter, let your rescue/foster network know that she's a negligent (not maliciously, but you did pay for services she didn't perform) care taker and keep her away from other pets.

Slugworth
Feb 18, 2001


Abutiu posted:

I am like 95% sure he wouldn't do that, but I don't want to risk them on that gamble. I could still be in the house, but I don't have a place for my dogs to stay if I'm not there caring for them, if that makes any sense.
I feel like if there was a 5% chance that my girlfriend would shoot my dogs, that would count as a deal breaker.

Abutiu
Oct 21, 2013


I know it's a red flag, and it does really worry me. But we've also been together for years and I've never seen any indication of this kind of behavior before, in fact quite the opposite...he has always been almost too loving of the pets (spoiling them and the like) and very forgiving when people wrong him. I guess it is just me hoping he is kind of crazy from shock and grief and will come to his senses...probably futile I know and I will never do anything to risk my dogs but it is just so hard to reconcile the amazing person he has always been with this. I just keep hoping he will snap out of it. And really, I don't think he would. Even when we discovered it, he literally said, "I'm furious and I do not want to do something I would regret. Get these dogs out of here." Like I said, probably wishful thinking but while I'm trying to take him at his word and I have had to worry about that, it's also totally contrary to all I know of him.

I've definitely put the word out about the pet sitter with all the animal people I know. I am furious. He paid her half upfront and I was supposed to pay her half when we got back, but I am certainly not doing so. She is a professional and came highly recommended, and in some ways I do appreciate her honesty but ultimately she blew off the terms of her contract because she thought she knew better than we did, and that is bullshit. I can forgive her as a person, but she should not be pet sitting.

Abutiu fucked around with this message at Jan 14, 2014 around 02:48

Skizzles
Feb 21, 2009

Live, Laugh, Love,
Poop in a box.


Even my gun-crazy ex who was stupidly attached to our cats wouldn't have even considered shooting my dog if he'd killed one of them. I can absolutely understand this being incredibly upsetting for him, but if he doesn't do a 180 and get REAL rational REAL fast, I would be saying "BYE rear end in a top hat" if I were you.

But I am not you. I don't have any idea what he or your relationship is like, my opinions on the matter here are based solely on what you've told us here and that's not much at all. I understand good people have their bad moments too. But then again for all I know he could be an abusive prick and you're in denial. That's why I'm hesitant to comment on the situation. So I definitely say just let things cool down and try to get him to understand that kicking the dogs out is unfair. What happened REALLY sucks, but the way he's behaving also sucks.

Edit: on another note, holy poo poo what is with irresponsible pet sitters? I used to pet sit for this couple. When I wasn't available, however, they found another person. This person's incompetence (not properly containing the dogs) got their cat killed by their foster dog. poo poo like this makes me terrified to leave my dog with anyone else.

Skizzles fucked around with this message at Jan 14, 2014 around 03:32

Koivunen
Oct 7, 2011

elokuussa
kuolema


The fact that you've been together for a long time doesn't matter at this point. He's being a complete rear end in a top hat and is making you choose between your dogs and him. That's totally unfair. Imagine if you did give up your dogs so you could stay together - is that ever something that you could forgive him for? He likely would never want dogs again in the future, either.

Keep your dogs, they don't deserve to be surrendered because you've got a jerk boyfriend. You don't deserve this kind of treatment, either. He is punishing you for something that was completely out of your control.

AvianPundit
Feb 14, 2013

Lollercide

He declined to have a real necropsy done, so he has no right to jump to conclusions like this! ...That's the part I can't wrap my mind around. How can he be so convinced of something when there's no longer any way to tell?!

AvianPundit fucked around with this message at Jan 14, 2014 around 22:42

Fuzz Feets
Apr 11, 2009



It would really make me question being with someone who reacted so forcefully and gave such an ultimatum. Best piece of relationship advice I got when my husband and I got married was only marry someone you wouldn't mind divorcing. In other words if you would be afraid they'd have reactions and potentially retaliate, what is the use of being with that person? It's just a matter of time before they explode.

I'm so sorry you are going through this right now. Trust your instincts and take care of yourself and your (dog) family.

Brillig
Oct 21, 2008

You know the world isn't fair at all. Titles aren't fairly distributed either. In time you'll learn my son. -2Bit


AvianPundit posted:

He declined to have a real necropsy done, so he has no right to jump to conclusions like this! ...That's the part I can't wrap my mind around. How can he be so convinced of something when there's no longer any way to tell?!

I can't help but wonder whether he suggested the answer he was given at the crematorium as well. Did he ask "how did this cat die?", or did he say "I think a dog killed this cat, how did it die?" Big difference.

pandaid
Feb 9, 2004

RAWR

reasonable response: I don't feel safe leaving cats alone with our dogs. We must keep them separate except when supervised, consider rehoming some of them, call in a behaviorist, temporarily put some of the animals with family while we figure out a game plan, some combination of this etc.

Unreasonable response: all the dogs can't be in the house one more second and if you can't accept that I don't care. no compromises.


I would seriously think about whether this reaction is a more extreme version of a dynamic already going on in your relationship. If it is, you know what to do to move forward. If it's truly completely unlike him in all ways, make the ultimatum that he goes to a grief counselor if he wants to have you in his life.

kazmeyer
Jul 26, 2001

'Cause we're the good guys.



Velvet Sparrow posted:

I just wanted to pause and reflect on majestic herds of guinea pigs...covering the plains as far as the eye can see.

It's an even more hilarious mental imagine than you know -- when herds of guinea pigs travel, they tend to line up nose-to-rump and proceed in single file. (Not to hide their numbers, but so if a condor swoops down and grabs the lead pig, the second in line can take over and haul everyone's rear end in a safe direction.) So imagine long, endless lines of guinea pigs snaking across the plains, a deafening wheeking and burbling noise, and the occasional stampede as they get scared by a rock or something and panic.

Unfortunately, outside of that glimpse into the guinea pig psyche I don't have much to offer except sympathy, and to echo everyone's sentiment that he's obviously overreacting out of grief. It's terrible but it happens, and hopefully he'll come to his senses soon.

TheGayDivorce0000
Jan 21, 2004


Abutiu posted:

I am like 95% sure he wouldn't (shoot the dogs)...

blue urban dream posted:

ETA: Also, if you're only 95% sure that he wouldn't kill your pets on an unfounded assumption...

Tasty_Crayon posted:

I can understand his grief but he is loving you over hard and being extremely selfish.

Slugworth posted:

I feel like if there was a 5% chance that my girlfriend would shoot my dogs, that would count as a deal breaker.

Koivunen posted:

The fact that you've been together for a long time doesn't matter at this point...
Keep your dogs, they don't deserve to be surrendered because you've got a jerk boyfriend. You don't deserve this kind of treatment, either...
(emphasis mine)

pandaid posted:

I would seriously think about whether this reaction is a more extreme version of a dynamic already going on in your relationship...

I am no animal behaviorist; I wandered into PI to seek advice for my own dog problems. I know all about lovely human relationships, though. This man is not your partner, he is not treating you like you guys are on the same team. The fact that you guys have been together for years makes his behavior worse; why is he not on your team? If you guys are together, you should make decisions together and seek compromise. When he put his foot down because it is "his house" he made his understanding of the power dynamic in your relationship clear. In the interest of full disclosure, I will add that I am saying this to you because I wish someone had said it to me: You need to get out.

(p.s.- If you find yourself taking "his side", defending him against the way he is being characterized by me and the quotes I took, ask yourself: why do you have his back when he clearly doesn't have yours? You deserve better.)

snortleface
Apr 19, 2007
hooray for bunnies

Have you googled "sudden cat death" ? I came home from work one day to find my seemingly healthy five year old cat lying dead on the floor. Turns out he had something known (colloquially, I believe) as "thickened heart"- a condition some cats have that is pretty much undetectable, but can kill them quite out of the blue. I don't have dogs so there was no question of him being attacked by anything. My vet didn't do a full necropsy, just cut him open and checked out his heart, because this was what she suspected killed him.

I am so sorry about your cat's death and your boyfriend's reaction. I get how horrible it is to lose a pet, especially when it is unexpected. But he is not being reasonable about this, especially since he is acting on an assumption rather than a proven fact. Frankly I would choose the dogs over him.

Pile of Kittens
Apr 23, 2005

Why does everything STILL smell like pussy?

At least when the dogs randomly decide to become phobic of something really inconvenient, you can train them and work around it. The boyfriend might just be a lost cause.

Araenna
Dec 27, 2012


snortleface posted:

Have you googled "sudden cat death" ? I came home from work one day to find my seemingly healthy five year old cat lying dead on the floor. Turns out he had something known (colloquially, I believe) as "thickened heart"- a condition some cats have that is pretty much undetectable, but can kill them quite out of the blue. I don't have dogs so there was no question of him being attacked by anything. My vet didn't do a full necropsy, just cut him open and checked out his heart, because this was what she suspected killed him.

I am so sorry about your cat's death and your boyfriend's reaction. I get how horrible it is to lose a pet, especially when it is unexpected. But he is not being reasonable about this, especially since he is acting on an assumption rather than a proven fact. Frankly I would choose the dogs over him.

My cat had the same thing happen. We were home to see him, and didn't do a necropsy, but the vet said that was the most likely explanation based on what we saw happen. He basically had a grand mal seizure and dropped dead. Cats die at random all the time, just like humans or any other animal does, unfortunately.

Your boyfriend is a straight up rear end in a top hat. I'd dump him, regardless of whether he changes his mind or apologizes or anything. Even if the dog obviously killed the cat, he's acting like a whiny twelve year old about it, while showing no respect for you. gently caress him.

Uncle Salty
Jan 19, 2008
BOYS

Abutiu, I am so sorry that you are going through this. The sudden loss of a pet is bad enough, but this is just so complicated and crazy.

You'll never get an answer on the poor cat's death. But you can control what happens next, for you and your dogs. I send you strength and peace.

Serella
Apr 24, 2008

Is that what you're posting?


Brillig posted:

I can't help but wonder whether he suggested the answer he was given at the crematorium as well. Did he ask "how did this cat die?", or did he say "I think a dog killed this cat, how did it die?" Big difference.

Also, working at a crematorium does not necessarily mean they know anything about pets. It could literally just be a job where they stick animals in the furnace and then scoop their ashes into a little box (or the trash, depending). They might know how to reduce a body to ashes, but they're not vets. Even a vet can't usually say with 100% certainty what killed an animal unless they've done a necropsy -- and even then it can come back inconclusive.

The crematorium worker's opinion on the cat's death is irrelevant. It sounds like your boyfriend was looking for validation of his theory that the dogs killed the cat and was willing to listen to anyone who would back him up on that.

asmasm
Nov 26, 2013


snortleface posted:

Have you googled "sudden cat death" ? I came home from work one day to find my seemingly healthy five year old cat lying dead on the floor. Turns out he had something known (colloquially, I believe) as "thickened heart"- a condition some cats have that is pretty much undetectable, but can kill them quite out of the blue. I don't have dogs so there was no question of him being attacked by anything. My vet didn't do a full necropsy, just cut him open and checked out his heart, because this was what she suspected killed him.

I am so sorry about your cat's death and your boyfriend's reaction. I get how horrible it is to lose a pet, especially when it is unexpected. But he is not being reasonable about this, especially since he is acting on an assumption rather than a proven fact. Frankly I would choose the dogs over him.

This. I had a ~4 year old cat just fall off of my bed dead. I think he was dead before he hit the ground.

Abutiu
Oct 21, 2013


I just wanted to thank everyone. I especially want to thank Uncle Salty. I was having a rough day today and your words actually did really help me. But to everyone...it seems like everyone in my real life doesn't really understand why this is such a big deal, and it really helps to have people who understand.

I am definitely not going to give up my dogs. I honestly did consider giving up at least one at first, but he's treated me so badly I don't trust him enough to make that kind of sacrifice for the relationship anymore. I have to say I appreciate those of you who were pretty harsh here. Your judgment is a bit flawed in my opinion (of course it is; you're judging based on my summary of one incident that is seemingly out-of-character even according to his friends), but you all helped me realize that the way he is treating me is Not Okay. I have some guilt over the possibility that my dogs did kill the cat, and that was turning into self-blame and excusing his bad behavior because I felt guilty. You guys were my wake-up call.

I talked to him today and was pretty harsh. I told him his treatment of me was unacceptable and not how you treat someone you love. I told him that giving up my dogs completely is asking too much...it's asking me to get rid of dogs I am bonded to, dogs that help me deal with my anxiety and make me feel safe, and dogs that my social circle revolves around. I told him that he was unreasonable for not getting a necropsy done especially since I made a point of offering to pay for it (and I do think he likely suggested the outcome to the crematorium guy, so that is completely worthless), and that I didn't trust him anymore. I gave him a very short deadline to get his poo poo together if we're going to even try to make this work.

I don't think he will, though, and I'm oddly okay with that. I'm really sad about our relationship ending, but I'm also really furious about how he has treated me. We were talking about marriage and starting a family, and I feel like if he can't deal with this, I probably dodged a bullet. It's hard to reconcile because he was so amazing to me in the past, but I do also feel like I'd always be waiting for the other shoe to drop after this incident. And it seems like the only way to make this work is to get rid of the dogs, but that's too much to ask. I'm especially doubtful because we have one dog who definitely was not involved (the dog who was staying with a friend), who is supposedly my BF's favorite dog, and who is also struggling because he is afraid of my mom's dog (my dog shakes and crawls into my lap every time he hears my mom's dog bark; we keep them separated so that's the extent of their interaction, but they have fought in person in the past which is why my dog is so scared). I've mentioned this repeatedly to my BF and asked if he is willing to take my dog temporarily so he can be somewhere peaceful (and the BF suggested taking him originally, in fact), but my BF told me yesterday that he will not. It sounds crazy I am sure, but that almost feels like more of a betrayal than the way my BF has treated me. He loved this dog, walked him every day, gave him special treats, etc. and then just casts him aside? Not okay.

Ugh, I'm sorry, this is getting all kinds of e/n again. I can close the thread if need be. It just really helps to vent to people who understand and don't think I'm crazy for not just dropping my dogs at the shelter because my boyfriend suddenly has a problem with them. I love these guys so much, even if I did rehome I would insist on finding a good home which can take months and he's not willing to give me that time apparently, so gently caress him.

wtftastic
Jul 24, 2006

"In private, we will be mercifully free from the opinions of imbeciles and fools."

Abutiu posted:

I just wanted to thank everyone. I especially want to thank Uncle Salty. I was having a rough day today and your words actually did really help me. But to everyone...it seems like everyone in my real life doesn't really understand why this is such a big deal, and it really helps to have people who understand.

I am definitely not going to give up my dogs. I honestly did consider giving up at least one at first, but he's treated me so badly I don't trust him enough to make that kind of sacrifice for the relationship anymore. I have to say I appreciate those of you who were pretty harsh here. Your judgment is a bit flawed in my opinion (of course it is; you're judging based on my summary of one incident that is seemingly out-of-character even according to his friends), but you all helped me realize that the way he is treating me is Not Okay. I have some guilt over the possibility that my dogs did kill the cat, and that was turning into self-blame and excusing his bad behavior because I felt guilty. You guys were my wake-up call.

I talked to him today and was pretty harsh. I told him his treatment of me was unacceptable and not how you treat someone you love. I told him that giving up my dogs completely is asking too much...it's asking me to get rid of dogs I am bonded to, dogs that help me deal with my anxiety and make me feel safe, and dogs that my social circle revolves around. I told him that he was unreasonable for not getting a necropsy done especially since I made a point of offering to pay for it (and I do think he likely suggested the outcome to the crematorium guy, so that is completely worthless), and that I didn't trust him anymore. I gave him a very short deadline to get his poo poo together if we're going to even try to make this work.

I don't think he will, though, and I'm oddly okay with that. I'm really sad about our relationship ending, but I'm also really furious about how he has treated me. We were talking about marriage and starting a family, and I feel like if he can't deal with this, I probably dodged a bullet. It's hard to reconcile because he was so amazing to me in the past, but I do also feel like I'd always be waiting for the other shoe to drop after this incident. And it seems like the only way to make this work is to get rid of the dogs, but that's too much to ask. I'm especially doubtful because we have one dog who definitely was not involved (the dog who was staying with a friend), who is supposedly my BF's favorite dog, and who is also struggling because he is afraid of my mom's dog (my dog shakes and crawls into my lap every time he hears my mom's dog bark; we keep them separated so that's the extent of their interaction, but they have fought in person in the past which is why my dog is so scared). I've mentioned this repeatedly to my BF and asked if he is willing to take my dog temporarily so he can be somewhere peaceful (and the BF suggested taking him originally, in fact), but my BF told me yesterday that he will not. It sounds crazy I am sure, but that almost feels like more of a betrayal than the way my BF has treated me. He loved this dog, walked him every day, gave him special treats, etc. and then just casts him aside? Not okay.

Ugh, I'm sorry, this is getting all kinds of e/n again. I can close the thread if need be. It just really helps to vent to people who understand and don't think I'm crazy for not just dropping my dogs at the shelter because my boyfriend suddenly has a problem with them. I love these guys so much, even if I did rehome I would insist on finding a good home which can take months and he's not willing to give me that time apparently, so gently caress him.

I'm sorry this is turning out so lovely, but I think you are right. If he can't handle this and (more or less be an adult about it) how could he deal with other more serious things along the road? Especially if you offered to pay for a necropsy- him not getting one done is essentially saying "hey I don't care about the truth, this is what I saw and I don't want to be told otherwise". There was a lot of circumstantial poo poo pointing to it being death by natural causes, and honestly, he probably wouldn't want to know if that was the case because then he'd feel partly responsible, most likely.

We'll do our best to be supportive- a lot of us have gone through tough situations with pets in the past, and we hope it never happens to anyone else.

Tasty_Crayon
Jul 29, 2006
Same story, different version.

Abutiu posted:

I just wanted to thank everyone. I especially want to thank Uncle Salty. I was having a rough day today and your words actually did really help me. But to everyone...it seems like everyone in my real life doesn't really understand why this is such a big deal, and it really helps to have people who understand.

I am definitely not going to give up my dogs. I honestly did consider giving up at least one at first, but he's treated me so badly I don't trust him enough to make that kind of sacrifice for the relationship anymore. I have to say I appreciate those of you who were pretty harsh here. Your judgment is a bit flawed in my opinion (of course it is; you're judging based on my summary of one incident that is seemingly out-of-character even according to his friends), but you all helped me realize that the way he is treating me is Not Okay. I have some guilt over the possibility that my dogs did kill the cat, and that was turning into self-blame and excusing his bad behavior because I felt guilty. You guys were my wake-up call.

I talked to him today and was pretty harsh. I told him his treatment of me was unacceptable and not how you treat someone you love. I told him that giving up my dogs completely is asking too much...it's asking me to get rid of dogs I am bonded to, dogs that help me deal with my anxiety and make me feel safe, and dogs that my social circle revolves around. I told him that he was unreasonable for not getting a necropsy done especially since I made a point of offering to pay for it (and I do think he likely suggested the outcome to the crematorium guy, so that is completely worthless), and that I didn't trust him anymore. I gave him a very short deadline to get his poo poo together if we're going to even try to make this work.

I don't think he will, though, and I'm oddly okay with that. I'm really sad about our relationship ending, but I'm also really furious about how he has treated me. We were talking about marriage and starting a family, and I feel like if he can't deal with this, I probably dodged a bullet. It's hard to reconcile because he was so amazing to me in the past, but I do also feel like I'd always be waiting for the other shoe to drop after this incident. And it seems like the only way to make this work is to get rid of the dogs, but that's too much to ask. I'm especially doubtful because we have one dog who definitely was not involved (the dog who was staying with a friend), who is supposedly my BF's favorite dog, and who is also struggling because he is afraid of my mom's dog (my dog shakes and crawls into my lap every time he hears my mom's dog bark; we keep them separated so that's the extent of their interaction, but they have fought in person in the past which is why my dog is so scared). I've mentioned this repeatedly to my BF and asked if he is willing to take my dog temporarily so he can be somewhere peaceful (and the BF suggested taking him originally, in fact), but my BF told me yesterday that he will not. It sounds crazy I am sure, but that almost feels like more of a betrayal than the way my BF has treated me. He loved this dog, walked him every day, gave him special treats, etc. and then just casts him aside? Not okay.

Ugh, I'm sorry, this is getting all kinds of e/n again. I can close the thread if need be. It just really helps to vent to people who understand and don't think I'm crazy for not just dropping my dogs at the shelter because my boyfriend suddenly has a problem with them. I love these guys so much, even if I did rehome I would insist on finding a good home which can take months and he's not willing to give me that time apparently, so gently caress him.

When it comes down to it, the hard poo poo is what lets you know when a person has your back. I'm sorry that you had to find out this way, and I wish you luck. Not to spam PIFB, but the Facebook group is really good for mindless bitching and support.

Edit: Even if your dog DID kill his cat, his behavior is not ok.

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ButWhatIf
Jun 24, 2009

pictured: a cat eating a zipper


If you want to talk about the e/n stuff, feel free to email me any time. I just got out of a 10 year relationship (5 of that married) and I am more than happy to be an understanding ear when it comes to being completely blindsided like that by someone you live. My email is [redacted, email received!] if you ever want to talk. If not, that's fine too. This pet goon's pulling for you!

ButWhatIf fucked around with this message at Jan 19, 2014 around 17:16

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