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I have a job offer and am wondering how to negotiate it. I already have a job (been at it for a few years), and would be fine staying where I am, but want to maximize my salary if possible. Due to lack of skills, I did a poor job of negotiating the offer for the job I have now. What I make now is not bad, but it's lower than where it should be given that my field is fairly competitive right now (software engineering and I live in Seattle), I think. I don't actually know for sure what a reasonable salary is for my position (I'm pretty new to this), but from looking around on glassdoor, what I make is lower than the low end listed and about 20k lower than the average. I know that numbers on there are not always accurate, but I think it gives you a general sense of where you should be at. Anyway, I'd welcome any advice about negotiating in general, but I also have a specific question. I'm wondering what I should say if the new company asks me how much I made at my old company when discussing compensation (I got the offer a couple days ago but they haven't settled the details of the compensation package yet, and from the looks of it they're going to talk to me to figure that out). Do I * lie and say it is $y, where y is what I think the reasonably salary for my position is? Again, if they think y is too high and come back with something less than y, or just drop off altogether, that's ok. But are there any downsides to doing this? * say that I don't want to share that, but that I think $y is reasonable and I expect something in that range? Then I don't have to lie, but I look shady. * say that it is $x. I'm honest and not shady, but I've anchored them to a lower starting point and have possibly needlessly thrown away money. If they offer me something between x and y, I'd probably take it... I'm guessing that my current company will counter-offer, but I can't say for sure. So I have to assume there will be no counter-off, and try to make the most out of this. Not sure what to do here.
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Jan 17, 2014 07:32
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I don't have time for a full response right now, but check out the newbie coding jobs thread in CoC, there's a salary negotiation link in the OP. Also maybe check out some of Ramit Sethi's negotiation stuff.
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Jan 17, 2014 08:15
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Please don't share your current salary information with potential new employers. There, now you can honestly say "I've been asked not to share that information with third parties."
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Jan 17, 2014 17:03
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Agree with the poster above about not telling them. There is no reason for them to know and there isn't anything shady about not giving your salary. I haven't taken an in depth look at salaries on glassdoor, but just from a glance the numbers they give seem to be high for junior engineers. I'm not sure if there is a good way to break it out by experience, but if there is not then the salary is going to correlate to average experience in that position and thus if you have less experience, which a couple of years is going to fall into, then lowering the salary by 5-10% may be more accurate. Of course you should always shoot high when negotiating.
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Jan 17, 2014 19:21
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Also don't feel bad about negotiating. This is a hard one to internalize. But this is your life, not theirs. After they've stated the offer, thank them for the opportunity, tell them that you're really excited that they want you to be a part of their team, and then make the case for what you want confidently. Obviously you can't expect to get everything you want, but go for it.That might include non-salary benefits. I had a job offer once where the salary actually came in way above what I was expecting to hear and even above what my opening counter was going to be. Knowing that this was definitely as high as it was ever going to get and that there was no room (or frankly, even burning need) to go higher I talked about how excited I was that they wanted me... and then I dug into the non-salary benefits I wanted but that I didn't expect to get. And I got almost all of it. Not NEEDING to leave your current job puts you in a good spot to negotiate!
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Jan 18, 2014 15:27
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You have an extremely limited time frame where your skills will be useful. You need to maximize your earnings during those years. I other words, your childrens' future, (and ex wives lifetyle) are at stake here. Go for the throat.
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Jan 18, 2014 16:11
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maxwell.mu posted:
Option #1 is pretty popular, but will very badly backfire if they ask for a W-2/paystub from your previous job (which they'll ask for in order to "confirm prior work experience") Don't say "I can't disclose that information" or "I don't want to share that" - you're not a loving secret agent. If they ask about salary history, just swerve past the question by saying "It's at a level that what I'd want at a new job would be $XX,XXX). They shouldn't press past that point, but if they do, provide a total compensation number that includes poo poo like health benefits, bonuses, fringes, whatever. If they ask for what your minimum salary would be - the base answer for that is "That's a complicated question to answer without knowing about the other benefits, work hours, responsibilities, vacation time, etc." Generally, that stops that line of inquiry.
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Jan 18, 2014 18:00
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Having a current job makes a big difference. I kept my resume up despite having had a job I was happy with. I'd get calls pretty often for positions that were similar to my current job. I'd chat with the recruiter, but even before an interview I would tell them I wouldn't leave my job without a 25% pay raise and give them the minimum salary. Every single one would say sorry that they couldn't do that for that position. One of these recruiters called me back a few weeks later and miraculously they had a SENIOR same position open up that they could meet the salary I requested.
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Jan 18, 2014 18:25
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Admiral101 posted:Option #1 is pretty popular, but will very badly backfire if they ask for a W-2/paystub from your previous job (which they'll ask for in order to "confirm prior work experience") If your future employer is asking for a W2 or a paystub DO NOT WORK THERE. That's extremely unprofessional. Huge red flag. If they need to verify employment dates they will contact your previous employer's HR department.
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Jan 18, 2014 19:45
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maxwell.mu posted:I have a job offer and am wondering how to negotiate it. I already have a job (been at it for a few years), and would be fine staying where I am, but want to maximize my salary if possible. Due to lack of skills, I did a poor job of negotiating the offer for the job I have now. What I make now is not bad, but it's lower than where it should be given that my field is fairly competitive right now (software engineering and I live in Seattle), I think. I don't actually know for sure what a reasonable salary is for my position (I'm pretty new to this), but from looking around on glassdoor, what I make is lower than the low end listed and about 20k lower than the average. I know that numbers on there are not always accurate, but I think it gives you a general sense of where you should be at. I have a fairly crisp set of rules on this issue, that I think make sense, and that I lean on heavily whenever salary negotiation comes up: 1) Never tell a prospective employer what you make now. 2) NEVER TELL A PROSPECTIVE EMPLOYER WHAT YOU MAKE NOW! 3) You can reject this opportunity and find another one. There's no reason to accept this one other than it being sufficiently appealing to you. 4) There's decent odds they will ask what you make, though if they don't that's a far better situation. By asking what you make now, they're anchoring your expectations to your present compensation. Your present compensation isn't good enough, which is why you're willing to look at them as a new potential employer. 5) What you'd like them to ask is "What is the price range you're looking at?" You should know the value you'd accept the job offer at on the spot. This is the salary number where you don't even need to think it over, you'll just take the job offer. 6) If they do ask "What do you make now?" say "Oh, you'd like to talk about salary? Let's start by discussing what I'd like to be making with you..." And go back to rule #4. 7) If you went to them (i.e. sent in a resume/contacted a friend who works there/otherwise initiated the hiring), you should at this point tell them your ideal offer. This puts the ball in your court and sets a stake where your negotiations will go no higher than, but you went to them. 8) If they came to you, you should insist that they make you an offer. This puts the ball in your court, and sets a stake where your negotiations will go no lower than. This is good, because you can negotiate up from this position reasonably. 9) Review rule #3. You can walk away. In many cases, you should walk away. If you go in willing to walk, and knowing what you want, then you'll be in a good position, maybe not with this opportunity, but for life in general. And if you hold fast to what you want, you'll eventually get it.
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Jan 21, 2014 15:32
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One time I was asked what my requirement for salary was, and I named the price, and they immediately replied (literally, less than one minute after I replied to the email, they replied to mine) to ask when I could start at that salary. I was so pissed at myself for not asking for more. It only took a year to get about a 25% bump, so I am no longer pissed at myself.
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Jan 21, 2014 22:37
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adorai posted:One time I was asked what my requirement for salary was, and I named the price, and they immediately replied (literally, less than one minute after I replied to the email, they replied to mine) to ask when I could start at that salary. I was so pissed at myself for not asking for more. Yep, in my case it was "so what does the position pay?" and the guy replied with "What are you looking to earn?" I replied with "$xxxxx" and he said "Yeah it pays about that." Also he was a loving liar and he got me at $10k a year less than the guy I was replacing. One of the most important things to do in a negotiation is never be the first to throw out a number. The guy in my story clearly knew that and he won the negotiation. You can also answer with vague statements like "I'm on the lower end of the pay range for a position of this type" if you want to be honest but non-specific.
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Jan 21, 2014 23:31
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LloydDobler posted:Yep, in my case it was "so what does the position pay?" and the guy replied with "What are you looking to earn?" I replied with "$xxxxx" and he said "Yeah it pays about that." Also he was a loving liar and he got me at $10k a year less than the guy I was replacing. Go high. Always.
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Jan 22, 2014 04:59
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adorai posted:One time I was asked what my requirement for salary was, and I named the price, and they immediately replied (literally, less than one minute after I replied to the email, they replied to mine) to ask when I could start at that salary. I was so pissed at myself for not asking for more. The proper response is sorry I typo'd and dropped a 0 off the end of my initial offer.
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Jan 22, 2014 05:17
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Just for a counter example, it is sometimes expedient to name a number first. Saves time and energy if you're being recruited for lower positions than you'd like. Still probably shouldn't name your current though, just where you'd like to be.
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Jan 22, 2014 07:56
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Don't be too intimidated, always remember 90% of hiring people are not some ninja kung-fu world class negotiators. Most of them are pretty poo poo and don't really care that much anyway, they have a limit and probably get a few brownie points for being under it. They should certainly not care as much as you. Most people (potential employees) get screwed over because they are even worse and\or uninformed.
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Jan 22, 2014 19:29
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I've been involved in salary negotiations on both sides of the table and here are some thoughts: Your negotiating strength is dependent on your alternatives, or specifically on your BATNA (Best Alternative To a Negotiated Alternative). In your case, you stated that you're reasonably comfortable with your current position and expect your current employer to counter-offer (this is your BATNA), so you have literally no reason to feel pressured by the other company. You didn't mention how senior the position you're applying for is but I'm guessing a bit above entry-level. You have some leverage here but if it's not for a "lead" or other specialist role of some sort frankly there's a large pool of software engineers out there who could essentially do the same job, regardless of whether there's a regional shortage. $10K covers moving costs so it's not that big a barrier and can be amortized over the life of an employee. The takeaway is don't over-play your hand. You didn't describe the culture of the company you're applying to. If it's a behemoth like (say) IBM, you will have a much harder time dicking around and their interviewers will be much better trained. If it's a small outfit you're much more likely to be dealing with someone who spends 2% of their time on stuff like this and isn't necessarily well versed. The answer to this question will determine how aggressive you are in your positioning. I would do this (on the assumption that you have roughly a medium level of negotiating leverage vs. a relatively untrained negotiator): On your own, write down a continuum of what your current salary is, absolute minimum increase to switch, what you think your current employer might re-raise to, and what your dream salary would be, with reference to glassdoor or another service. It's fine if the services over-estimate as you're going to be setting a goalpost, but just make sure the number you're looking for is realistic for the size of the company. If, hypothetically, you were applying to an indie game developer their capacity to pay would be much lower, regardless of capability, than an established company although you could possibly get non-cash comp like revenue sharing or equity. If they've explicitly asked you for a salary you can't ignore the question without seeming disingenuous, but you can say no, and lying is a terrible idea as well as there are lots of ways to find this out. You have the option of fishing for an offer from them, but this has a risk of "anchoring" the discussion around a number that you're uncomfortable with in the event they low-ball you. I would probably prefer to tell them your salary expectations phrased something like "I'm interested in your position but don't think my current salary reflects the benefit I would bring to your organization. I'd be prepared to consider an offer from you at [your dream number]." If you're lucky, they will be under-informed and will take your offer. Rather than being disappointed that you low-balled yourself, you should be thrilled as you're making your dream salary! If you're unlucky, they will take some time to reflect, look at the same sources you looked at, and come back to you with a number somewhere in the fair range. At this point, you need to read their tone to decide whether there's additional room or if this is a firm and final number. If you're really unlucky, they'll be flabbergasted by the amount you asked for and try to put it back on you to undercut your own offer. DON'T EVER DO THIS. You've already determined what the bar is for an acceptable number - if this is their reaction, they need to prove to you that they can jump over it before you spend more time on them. If they try this tactic, politely but firmly decline to re-bid yourself, and if it continues, be willing to end the discussion and walk away. If they like you anyways, they will suck it up and come back with a proposal that they can work with. If not, you were never going to get to where you'd be happy and they're probably shitheads. In terms of the decision, it's then pretty easy - if the number you get is above your floor but below what you think your employer will re-raise, go back to your employer and see what they do. If they don't re-raise, you can still accept. If they do up, you can go back to the company you're applying to and see if they're willing to step up. If not, stay where you're at (subject to social issues). Keep in mind that you can really only pull this trick once at any given company (within a reasonable amount of time) so make sure it's worthwhile and that you're really going to be happy staying there another several years. If the final offer is below your minimum acceptable increase, gently caress'em and keep looking. Hope that's helpful. e: cleaned up, highlighted, clarified Kalenn Istarion fucked around with this message at 02:12 on Jan 23, 2014 |
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Jan 23, 2014 02:06
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One trend I can personally vouch for is that a company that really low-balls you is doing you a favor by waving a giant "you don't want to work here" sign in front of your face. Granted your position may not be so great, new grad, unemployed, etc. and you've got to take it anyway, but be aware that just like how you don't treat your cheap positions overly well, companies do the same thing with employees. I'm not a super greedy guy but I've realized that higher salary correlates to a better overall company and work environment almost every time and I've politely declined interviews when it seems like the range they're in is way below market. EDIT: Obviously if its a non-profit vs business or different CoL or outside factors like that, thats different. Xguard86 fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Jan 30, 2014 |
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Jan 29, 2014 23:49
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All you tell them is that to work for you doing the job we have out lined I would expect a salary of $x. Aim a bit higher than what you are willing to take.
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Jan 30, 2014 05:21
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Bloody Queef posted:If your future employer is asking for a W2 or a paystub DO NOT WORK THERE. That's extremely unprofessional. Huge red flag. If they need to verify employment dates they will contact your previous employer's HR department. I have an interview tomorrow and they've asked me to bring in my W-2 from the previous year. I've never been asked this before, but can you tell me why this is such a huge terrible thing?
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Feb 11, 2014 04:23
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liz posted:I have an interview tomorrow and they've asked me to bring in my W-2 from the previous year. I've never been asked this before, but can you tell me why this is such a huge terrible thing? It entirely cuts out negotiations for your salary as they know exactly what you currently make and thus what they can offer to make you consider changing jobs. I guess if you already know that they're going to offer you less and some other factors are the reason you want the job, then cutting out the negotiations isn't terrible, but I think it also tells you a lot about the company. If the company is going to try to pay the absolute minimum when they hire you then they're also probably going to do the same in other aspects like raises, vacations, health benefits, etc.
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Feb 11, 2014 04:56
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liz posted:I have an interview tomorrow and they've asked me to bring in my W-2 from the previous year. I've never been asked this before, but can you tell me why this is such a huge terrible thing? Bring in copies of them but use a big Sharpie over most of the significant digits. Like, if your W-2 says you earned 45,000 for the year, cover over the 45 portion and tell them that your accountant advises you not to share that information. Do the same for the taxes portion, so they can't easily derive your income. Just tell them you thought they wanted to verify employment history and leave it at that.
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Feb 11, 2014 05:00
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johnny sack posted:Bring in copies of them but use a big Sharpie over most of the significant digits. Like, if your W-2 says you earned 45,000 for the year, cover over the 45 portion and tell them that your accountant advises you not to share that information. Do the same for the taxes portion, so they can't easily derive your income. Just tell them you thought they wanted to verify employment history and leave it at that. Personally I would avoid this as it just begs the obvious and awkward question of what the number is. Personally I'd just say that they can verify your employment history as part of their background check once they've made the decision to hire you, and that you don't think it's appropriate to share personal documents of that sort. Alternatively you can say you're subject to confidentiality obligations to your former (current) employer in respect of compensation, which is often true, and can't share on that basis. I posted earlier in the thread about how best to position yourself in this sort of discussion.
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Feb 11, 2014 05:55
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liz posted:I have an interview tomorrow and they've asked me to bring in my W-2 from the previous year. I've never been asked this before, but can you tell me why this is such a huge terrible thing? There's no reason for you to share this information with them. If they asked you for your Facebook username and password so they could log into your account, would you give it to them? Would you feel like it's creepy that they're asking for them? Information asymmetries are valuable to the person who holds the information; in your case knowing what you make now is valuable to you in negotiating your new salary. They're asking you to give that value up right away without any form of compensation in exchange. How many other ways will this employer ask you to give up value in your life without compensating you for it? If this is a job you're really enthusiastic about, or if you are presently unemployed, I guess you could go in with your W2s and see where it goes. Otherwise I would personally decline the interview, and I'd tell them specifically that their request for W2's was why I was declining the interview.
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Feb 11, 2014 17:03
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Honestly, you should never feel bad about being a tough negotiator. Any employer who would hold it against you is NOT someone you want to work for. Trust me. Hiring managers who want to hire you typically don't have a personal stake in what you're paid, within reason (unless it's a small business and they're the owner). So there's nothing insulting to the person you're negotiating with. It's just a business discussion. Like deciding which paper vendor to go with. It's almost completely unemotionally charged for them, even though it definitely isn't for you.
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Feb 11, 2014 17:15
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...although you should approach it like it's not an emotional thing for you either. Just business. And you should think of it as good business for both sides because if they meet you on your terms or as close to them as you can all agree then they will get a better employee out of it.
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Feb 14, 2014 00:21
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I suppose this might be the thread for this. I was applying for an entry-level position today just ahead of the University's career fair, and I came across one application that asked me what my expected salary was. I was pretty dumbfounded, so I just put "Negotiable" and moved on. As I continued to fill out the application and reached the employment history section, there was a required field that accompanied each position requesting the pay I received at each position.  I filled them all in as "private". Luckily it didn't holler at me for a numerical value. I don't expect to hear back from that company, but I'm not so sure I care. Interestingly, talking to a professional friend of mine who is somewhat older than me, she was shocked that I wouldn't answer their questions. "How can they determine your new salary if they don't know your current one!?" I replied that I'm not even in the field right now so it wouldn't matter, but she was still convinced I made the wrong decision and should definitely read up on the matter if it ever comes up again. I dunno, should I have used a word other than "private"? Mind you, this was on the application, not even during a negotiation.
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Feb 14, 2014 05:54
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Zarin posted:I dunno, should I have used a word other than "private"? Mind you, this was on the application, not even during a negotiation. Nope, that's fine. The only thing that happens when you give up your previous salary is that the company gets negotiating leverage over you. The reason why people claim that your first salary anchors all future salaries is because they subscribe to ideas like this. Your skills now are worth a certain amount to the company up to a max amount, which they have no incentive to disclose. Your previous salary has no bearing on the value of your current skills.
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Feb 14, 2014 06:13
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Zarin posted:I dunno, should I have used a word other than "private"? Mind you, this was on the application, not even during a negotiation. What would you have written if the employer had a field "What is your dick (or bra) size?" That's the same level of invasiveness into something that is zero part of their business in my mind. If they don't accept private as an answer to a private question, you don't want to work from them anyway.
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Feb 15, 2014 00:17
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interrodactyl posted:The reason why people claim that your first salary anchors all future salaries is because they subscribe to ideas like this. This is somewhat true though if you stay at the same company for a long time. If you do a bad job negotiating and make 5-10k less than another guy at the same position it will be very hard to catch up with similar performance.
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Feb 15, 2014 06:12
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spwrozek posted:This is somewhat true though if you stay at the same company for a long time. If you do a bad job negotiating and make 5-10k less than another guy at the same position it will be very hard to catch up with similar performance. The short answer for how to fix this is to be willing to leave. Do your research, come up with a position based on evidence (internal or external salary references and/or job offer) and present it to your manager. If they aren't willing to adjust, it's time to get out of there. A company that isn't willing to pay you fair value for your time isn't a company worth working for. Details of how to position this discussion are similar to negotiating for salary at a new position, but you need to take into account the rapport you have with your current company. If it's good, you can position the discussion as collaborative.
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Feb 15, 2014 06:40
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Obviously you have to leave jobs to make a big jump. Tons of people get content or afraid to leave though and get stuck at lower wages.
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Feb 15, 2014 07:15
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If you want to understand salary disclosure, you have to understand very few things to get the whole picture: Salary negotiation is a zero sum game. Every dollar you increase your salary is an ongoing liability for the rest of your tenure. Every dollar they decrease your salary is an ongoing savings for the rest of your tenure. You have opposing motivations; you want to maximize your salary, they want to minimize it. Asking about your present salary is an employer pursuing the opportunity to get a cheap employee. If they ask and you tell, then they've just gotten negotiating leverage for free! You have just made their goal, in direct opposition to yours, easier to achieve! If they ask and you don't tell, then they've lost almost nothing. There are few job candidates who will walk out on that question. Asking is therefore one of the single best opportunities for a company to save tens of thousands of dollars over your tenure with almost no risk. Any organization motivated by profit would be foolish not to take this easy opportunity, so that's why you get asked. Further, when you answer, you're telling people you're a bad negotiator. You don't understand the game that's being played at all, so they can walk all over you. You have shown that you'll also be susceptible to aggressive posturing, ultimatum style negotiations, and other techniques that will help this company pay you less. NEVER TELL A PROSPECTIVE EMPLOYER WHAT YOU MAKE Saying that your present salary is private is fine. If you're going to get passed up over that, then you are getting out of involvement with a caustic organization. You should always feel free to say what you want to make. Always be aggressive; you'll never get to push past this number again with this employer.
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Feb 15, 2014 18:31
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I've found that applying to a bunch of places and having them all call my present employer around the same time to verify my job history was enough to scare my employer into giving me a few raises without asking.
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Feb 15, 2014 18:48
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All negotiation works the same, whether it's a job offer or closing a business deal. Unfortunately it's too much to type out, as negotiation is really it's own entire college degree. It's really going to depend on how good you are at negotiating. Almost all methods of negotiation are basically different forms of compromise. Personally I don't compromise.
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Feb 15, 2014 20:12
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AmazingK posted:All negotiation works the same, whether it's a job offer or closing a business deal. Unfortunately it's too much to type out, as negotiation is really it's own entire college degree. Yeah, my buddy is in Purchasing, and we've had some long sit-down conversations about what he does, strategies, BATNA, etc. It's all very, very interesting. For content, I just found ANOTHER application that is asking me for all my pay history. This one is a Fortune 500 running a (massive pain in the rear end) Taleo-based system. Ugh. It's a shame they have double-digit numbers of positions that I am interested in. Edit: removed non-pertinent info and moved to correct thread Zarin fucked around with this message at 02:54 on Feb 16, 2014 |
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Feb 16, 2014 02:08
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There's a massively informative resume thread that also covers cover letters. You'll be in good hands there.
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Feb 16, 2014 02:44
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Zarin posted:Yeah, my buddy is in Purchasing, and we've had some long sit-down conversations about what he does, strategies, BATNA, etc. It's all very, very interesting. Put zero in for salary. They probably won't filter for it, it's used solely for negotiating later.
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Feb 16, 2014 10:27
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Kalenn Istarion posted:Put zero in for salary. They probably won't filter for it, it's used solely for negotiating later. You think $0 would be more correct than "Private"? So far, I haven't run into one that validates for numbers only, which seems a bit silly. But I'm not complaining! Edit: Also, Dwight Eisenhower, thank you so much for your posts in this thread. They are INCREDIBLY informative! Zarin fucked around with this message at 16:42 on Feb 16, 2014 |
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Feb 16, 2014 16:38
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Zarin posted:You think $0 would be more correct than "Private"? If it lets you input letters, I'd go with "Market" myself.
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Feb 16, 2014 16:54
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