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Dwight Eisenhower posted:Saying that your present salary is private is fine. If you're going to get passed up over that, then you are getting out of involvement with a caustic organization. You should always feel free to say what you want to make. Always be aggressive; you'll never get to push past this number again with this employer. The smiling recruiters also get evaluated on how well they keep the cost of new employee acquisitions down. The recruiter is not your friend, they are basically there to bring in stable talent at the lowest possible cost to the company. Pretty much recruiters are aiming for a middle sweet spot the avoids too low of salary since the employee will probably leave but also avoiding the high side salary since they get rated on much their talent acquisitions cost the company. etalian fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Feb 16, 2014 |
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Feb 16, 2014 18:45
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Zarin posted:You think $0 would be more correct than "Private"? I have encountered many applications that require a number input into the salary field. I've seen this both for "current salary" and for "expected salary". I have always put 0 into those that require a number to be entered.
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Feb 16, 2014 22:08
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Zarin posted:You think $0 would be more correct than "Private"? Ah, I thought from what you said it was validating for numbers. Private is fine if not.
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Feb 17, 2014 07:40
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:
You have a good argument, but what about this situation? You are interviewing for a company that wants to hire you, but your current salary is higher than what they expect to pay. You don't want to take a pay cut, and need to raise their expectations. In that situation providing the information could work in your favor, at least in my mind. The company knows you aren't likely to go below a certain line, in fact they know if they don't come up that high they won't be able to hire you. They also know they need to sweeten it, and it raises the floor from what they were previously thinking.
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Feb 21, 2014 20:54
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When it gets to the part where they make you an official offer and it's $10k less than your current salary, then you say, "I would love the opportunity to work for you, but I am currently earning $14k more than that offer. I want to work here, but I can't take that substantial of a paycut."
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Feb 21, 2014 21:30
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EgonSpengler posted:You have a good argument, but what about this situation? Johnny Sack is correct. While in theory it should make no difference when you mention it, the vast majority of people will be reluctant to have wasted all the time and money even though it's a sunk cost and thus your more likely to get them to match your previous salary.
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Feb 21, 2014 21:51
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EgonSpengler posted:You have a good argument, but what about this situation? This is a good demonstration of the BATNA principle Kalenn Istarion mentions earlier in the thread. When you communicate "I am not going to take a pay cut to come work for you", and your present salary, you're illustrating that if they fail to negotiate and come to your terms, you won't take the job with them. However, you should ask yourself some additional questions when you're in this situation: - Would other non-pay factors lead you to actually take a pay cut to work there? If so, then communicating your present salary has put a cap on the negotiation, which will end up between their initial offer and your present salary. You won't go any higher than what you're presently making. Why set the cap here, instead of at your ideal salary? - If they're looking to pay you under your present salary, what other ways are they going to be attempting to reduce costs? Will your coworkers all be people who are also paid under market? Will there be a reason they are all paid under market? - If there aren't non-pay factors motivating you to work there at a pay cut, what privileges your present pay as the amount you'll accept jobs at over an ideal number? Describe the ideal criteria, not a minimum standard, and see how close you can get them to that ideal. If they can't negotiate when presented with your ideal, then you should walk. This advice really applies mainly to people who are presently employed, but you really never gain anything by telling a potential employer what you make, and that's why you should never do it.
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Feb 24, 2014 17:01
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Thanks for the answer, it makes sense. In retrospect I was pretty smart with my last negotiation, and named a price that would make me happy, didn't reveal what I did earn before, just started with a high range and stuck to it. I was prepared to walk since an "okay" offer wouldn't have been worth moving around the world for. When it finally came through it was good, and while it was lower than I opened with, it landed much higher than I would have expected. I was asking because as much as I played it right, I hate the process and would rather have a fact-based, non-confrontational method of landing on salary. That said, so much money is on the line with negotiating offers I suck it up and play the game.
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Feb 24, 2014 21:15
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My condolences on your namesake, Egon. Also, I'm curious as to where you ended up after Relic.
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Feb 24, 2014 21:17
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From my experience, if you're ambivalent about a price, the hiring manager will overshoot by a little bit. I've been negotiating freelance contracts, and on the one contract where I refused to name a price, the manager offered me double my typical rate...
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Feb 25, 2014 03:00
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tiananman posted:From my experience, if you're ambivalent about a price, the hiring manager will overshoot by a little bit. I've been negotiating freelance contracts, and on the one contract where I refused to name a price, the manager offered me double my typical rate... Your typical rate could just be too low? Sounds like a reason to change your typical to me!
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Feb 25, 2014 04:20
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tiananman posted:From my experience, if you're ambivalent about a price, the hiring manager will overshoot by a little bit. I've been negotiating freelance contracts, and on the one contract where I refused to name a price, the manager offered me double my typical rate... When you can, get an employer to make the first offer. They see many more candidate employees than most employees see potential employers. If you're ambivalent about a position, go ahead and force them to make you an offer with a number, or walk. When they offer it gives you all kinds of advantages: - You've anchored the bottom end of the conversation at their opening offer. You'll only go up from here in negotiation. - If their offer is near your ideal YOU CAN CHOOSE TO BE DONE! "I'd like that very much." You're both happy, no negotiation required. - Their offer is almost certainly based on higher exposure to the labor market, and gives you concrete data about what you can reasonably expect to get offered from anyone. Even if you don't take this position, you've now got more pricing data about what your work is worth. - You can ask for the moon and then negotiate down from there and will not scare off many employers. An employer making a lowball offer runs a very real risk that they'll offend you from further discussion, and thus will be less greedy in their opening position. Keep in mind trying to force an offer from an employer instead of disclosing how much you want to make is a move that risks the employer walking too, so I really only think you should do it for positions you're fine losing out on.
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Feb 25, 2014 19:46
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I believe this is the right thread for this, so sorry if it's not. I've been offered a job at a brand new company. I know what the position asks of me, I have several years' experience in that role, and the person who offered knows my qualifications and track record very well. I was asked to send him my employment demands (salary, benefits, etc.) but I'm not sure how to go about doing that in the most professional manner. As of now, I would be the only non-sales position in this new company, so it's not a matter of asking for X% commission, but at the same time I don't know if I can ask for my actual value since the company will not be able to support that salary level right off the bat. Would it be wise to ask for an X-month contract at Desired Salary in an hourly rate, and then re-negotiate at the end of the short contract? Should I ask for a percentage of company sales since I will be in charge of the entire infrastructure? Stock options? I honestly don't know where the line should be drawn or how to get what I'm worth without feeling like I got shortchanged. Any advice would be helpful, thanks.
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Feb 25, 2014 20:02
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Definitely don't take the first offer. I just accepted an offer and I rejected their first proposal. I asked them for 15% more but was really looking for about 9% more - which is what I got. Overall, I'm making 20% more than my current salary and I couldn't be happier. However, if my current job matches or offers more, should I go back to the new employer with that offer? Is that kosher?
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Feb 26, 2014 03:56
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:When you can, get an employer to make the first offer. They see many more candidate employees than most employees see potential employers. If you're ambivalent about a position, go ahead and force them to make you an offer with a number, or walk. When they offer it gives you all kinds of advantages: Yeah also it's a standard principle in negotiation in which it's in your best interest to get the other party to show their cards first. Most of the salary information in online employment forms is to take away this advantage and make sure the recruiter knows your cards first so he can make a offer that saves the company money.
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Feb 26, 2014 06:35
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oye como va posted:Definitely don't take the first offer. I just accepted an offer and I rejected their first proposal. I asked them for 15% more but was really looking for about 9% more - which is what I got. You already accepted the offer, it probably is not going to make you look good to try for more money. If your current employer matches and you back out at the new place you are really burning that bridge to the ground.
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Feb 26, 2014 14:38
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oye como va posted:Definitely don't take the first offer. I just accepted an offer and I rejected their first proposal. I asked them for 15% more but was really looking for about 9% more - which is what I got. spwrozek posted:You already accepted the offer, it probably is not going to make you look good to try for more money. If your current employer matches and you back out at the new place you are really burning that bridge to the ground. I agree, you've overplayed your hand already. If you were going to give your present employer an opportunity to match the new offer, you should not have accepted this new offer. Also you basically get to play the "Match this other party's offer" card once per employer; after that they'll probably tell you to pound sand and go enjoy your new employer. There's a difference between being firm and being guarded in what you disclose during negotiation, and being duplicitous. Accepting an offer you might not actually take falls into the second camp. If you get a better counter offer from your present employer, and you accept it, you're burning a bridge with these new guys. They'd be the first people to talk to if in a month or three your present employer cuts you loose after making sure they have mitigated the risk of losing you. If you get a better counter offer and you don't accept it, you're now settling for something less than the best offer you have. Be honest, but be guarded. Good luck in whatever direction you choose; my advice is that any employer you have to put a gun to the head of to get compensated well is not worth staying at.
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Feb 26, 2014 15:18
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I appreciate the advice. There are other factors than money - much shorter commute/lighter work load, which affected my initial decision. Also, after talking to my current boss, who's also on his way out, they are only willing to match base compensation. That being said, I'm going to continue with the new position and will remember this experience for next time.
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Feb 26, 2014 16:03
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This thread helped me negotiate for 20% more pay for a research position than was being offered to me, and all I did was be honest and firm. Thanks, thread.
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Feb 27, 2014 01:21
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Wickerman posted:This thread helped me negotiate for 20% more pay for a research position than was being offered to me, and all I did was be honest and firm. You really don't lose anything by trying to negotiate especially if you have the skill set and background a prospective employer really needs.
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Feb 27, 2014 03:18
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I'm suppose to have an interview next week for a senior level role for my position. If all goes well, I'll be utilizing everything I learned from this thread hopefully sometime next month, which I summarized down to: don't give out the first number and you're golden.
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Feb 27, 2014 06:53
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I have a question regarding a position I was just offered and the offer I was given. I'm in San Diego and have a year and a half's experience post college working in the pharmaceutical industry as a contract worker in a temp position. Back at the end of September my contract was not renewed due to some major personal issues affecting my work performance since the start of August. A note for my pride, things were improving by the beginning of September, but not enough. I've been looking for work since then, and today got an offer for an extremely similar position that is also contract. Main downside being that they offered it to me at ~80% of my last position. However with the additional overtime this job would entail (12 hr shifts, I'd still be working ~40 hrs/wk), the take home pay is pretty similar, less by about $40/wk. Given that I had to explain the bare bones of what happened in my last position during the hiring interview (one of my references was my last boss, yes I know), do I have much position to negotiate? If so how would I go about it? I'm familiar with all the techniques and equipment this position entails. Also, the contract is for six months, at which point they could choose to renew it. In addition some of these positions they're hiring for will be converted to FTE, which would also give me another possibility for renegotiation. What should I do goons? Edit: they know what I was making before, due to the employment application and me not having read this thread before that Spikes32 fucked around with this message at 17:14 on Feb 27, 2014 |
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Feb 27, 2014 17:03
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OK, looking for a sanity check: I'm in the situation of being a contractor and having the company I actually work for wanting to bring me in as an internal. I haven't' disclosed anything salarywise, but they literally have the contract that shows how much WORKPLACE is paying CONTRACTINGFIRM for my services, so they have a decent idea of what I make. The offer is to do the same job I currently am, but with a couple of exceptions: Salaried vs Hourly, with oncall time as well as OT I'd be going essentially oncall 52 weeks a year, currently switching off so 26 weeks I'll be traveling a few weeks a year, and those weeks are very busy WORKPLACE came over with an offer that is salarywise 2k above what I grossed on my w2 last year, with better vacation, worse sick time, better 401k match % but a 5 year vesting scheme on it, and I'm trying to figure out what to counter with. I can see on my paystubs how much of my total pay with CONTRACTINGFIRM is coming from the 26 weeks of oncall, and it amounts to ~15% of my current pay. Given the extended oncall, travel would it be crazy of me to request OFFER+19%? WORKPLACE offer includes a 10% bonus goal, but I don't know how I should factor that in, if at all.
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Feb 27, 2014 18:15
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Mutar posted:WORKPLACE came over with an offer that is salarywise 2k above what I grossed on my w2 last year, with better vacation, worse sick time, better 401k match % but a 5 year vesting scheme on it, and I'm trying to figure out what to counter with. I can see on my paystubs how much of my total pay with CONTRACTINGFIRM is coming from the 26 weeks of oncall, and it amounts to ~15% of my current pay. Given the extended oncall, travel would it be crazy of me to request OFFER+19%? Your workplace might have no idea what you make. Your agency probably takes double your rate hourly. So I'd I'd say you have room to negotiate. Do you know what the salary range is for the position? Is 19% solidly within it? That's a high number but you can always meet somewhere lower. Also is this a place where you'd like to build a career? Going from contractor to full-time has long-term benefits if you're so inclined.
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Feb 27, 2014 20:13
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Spikes32 posted:I have a question regarding a position I was just offered and the offer I was given. I'm in San Diego and have a year and a half's experience post college working in the pharmaceutical industry as a contract worker in a temp position. Back at the end of September my contract was not renewed due to some major personal issues affecting my work performance since the start of August. A note for my pride, things were improving by the beginning of September, but not enough. I've been looking for work since then, and today got an offer for an extremely similar position that is also contract. Main downside being that they offered it to me at ~80% of my last position. However with the additional overtime this job would entail (12 hr shifts, I'd still be working ~40 hrs/wk), the take home pay is pretty similar, less by about $40/wk. Given that I had to explain the bare bones of what happened in my last position during the hiring interview (one of my references was my last boss, yes I know), do I have much position to negotiate? If so how would I go about it? I'm familiar with all the techniques and equipment this position entails. Also, the contract is for six months, at which point they could choose to renew it. In addition some of these positions they're hiring for will be converted to FTE, which would also give me another possibility for renegotiation. What should I do goons? Sounds like a lucky break. Not sure how much bargaining power you have but you could try for a little more. If you get in there and like it, kill it for 6 months and turn into something more long term. corkskroo fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Feb 27, 2014 |
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Feb 27, 2014 20:17
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Mutar I am surprised how high the offer was. Here you would be taking a $10-15k paycut (yearly) but pick up insurance, vacation, 401k, bonus, etc.
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Feb 27, 2014 20:18
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Keep in mind I am currently an FTE for contractingfirm, with (eh, decent?) insurance/bennies/pay. I would like to stick around here long term, its just a strange thought for an IT worker to not jump every couple years so the slow vesting makes me a bit more nervous. EDIT - fuckit, just asked for my higher end of the range, worst case they'll say no and I'm back where I started. Altimeter fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Feb 27, 2014 |
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Feb 27, 2014 20:27
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So turns out I had no bargaining power because they are only hiring at one salary. Oh well, that just means at the six month mark I'm either going to get a raise or really look for another job (not that I won't start again at the 4 month mark anyway). Interestingly the HR lady informed me that for contract positions like this they don't draw up the job offer letter until there has been verbal acceptance. Is this normal?
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Feb 28, 2014 17:49
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Spikes32 posted:So turns out I had no bargaining power because they are only hiring at one salary. Oh well, that just means at the six month mark I'm either going to get a raise or really look for another job (not that I won't start again at the 4 month mark anyway). Interestingly the HR lady informed me that for contract positions like this they don't draw up the job offer letter until there has been verbal acceptance. Is this normal? Your leverage for this sort of short-term contract job is pretty low, so the outcome is not particularly surprising. Many firms will look to you to verbally commit because it creates a moral obligation to swallow the written terms of the offer. If you want to take the job I would suggest you say that you are happy to accept subject to there being no onerous or unusual terms in the written offer. This leaves you the option of backing out if they've misrepresented or failed to mention anything. As a general comment, you should in the future consider carefully how much detail you provide about whatever personal situation caused your job performance to suffer. You're perfectly in your rights to say 'I was dealing with some personal issues at the time which impacted my job performance. I've moved past those issues now and am prepared to fully commit my skills to a new position.' And leave it at that. If they push, you need to think hard about what kind of company is pushing for personal and potentially discriminatory information about your personal life. Also, If your prior employer is going to poo poo on you there's literally no reason to use them as a reference and if they are called on an unsolicited basis and provide negative feedback that isn't strictly factually based they can actually be legally exposed. If this is the case you should actually consider requesting that they provide only factual information such as confirmation of dates of employment etc.
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Feb 28, 2014 21:38
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Thanks Kalenn, I essentially did what you suggested in accepting the offer. And as to how I represented what happened, that was exactly the tact I took, and it seemed to play out well in the interviews. And my employer is actually a really great lady, and I'm sure spoke well of me overall, but I'm not sure she would have lied about why I no longer worked there which is why I owned up to it in the interviews ahead of them calling her, if that makes sense. So I know she's a good reference in general, I just couldn't blatantly lie about why I no longer work there.
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Feb 28, 2014 21:58
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Would never suggest you lie and vein up front about why you left is the best tactic by far. Glad to hear she's a good reference, wasn't clear from your post that it was the case. Good luck in the new job!
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Feb 28, 2014 22:31
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As I was a contract worker, it was very plausible that "my contract ended". Which I'm sure is what they thought before I got called in to interview. Which, technically it did end. Just abrutptly. But I didn't go down that route, and I'm thankful I did what I did.
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Feb 28, 2014 23:02
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Mutar posted:Keep in mind I am currently an FTE for contractingfirm, with (eh, decent?) insurance/bennies/pay. I would like to stick around here long term, its just a strange thought for an IT worker to not jump every couple years so the slow vesting makes me a bit more nervous. Predetermined grade ranges are funny like that. Sometimes you can use them to your advantage and sometimes you get screwed. I've had both experiences and luckily I'm currently having one of the good ones. Good luck to you!
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Mar 1, 2014 12:18
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I've been offered a full time position as a Front End Web Developer/Designer. I'm a relatively fresh out of college graduate (six months) with some industry experience. They offered me $25K/yr, which right off the bat I knew was low, and my search into entry level positions in that area shows the offer is definitely 50% less. There is a review after 90 days that could result in a pay increase, assuming I've transitioned into the web side of everything. They did not specify how much that pay increase could be. Given my lack of experience, is it still acceptable for me to request something higher? Not necessarily the 55K that entry level Front End Web Developers are making, but definitely more than 25K.
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Mar 5, 2014 02:02
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Transmogrifier posted:I've been offered a full time position as a Front End Web Developer/Designer. I'm a relatively fresh out of college graduate (six months) with some industry experience. They offered me $25K/yr, which right off the bat I knew was low, and my search into entry level positions in that area shows the offer is definitely 50% less. There is a review after 90 days that could result in a pay increase, assuming I've transitioned into the web side of everything. They did not specify how much that pay increase could be. Given my lack of experience, is it still acceptable for me to request something higher? Not necessarily the 55K that entry level Front End Web Developers are making, but definitely more than 25K. Why not the 55k entry level Front End Developers are making? 25K is an insult, espescially for someone with a degree. And "some industry experience" is way, way more experience than most people coming out of college who have no experience. 25k/year is what you pay someone's nephew who is 'really good with computers' to build a website on geocities. I have no degree and only a few years of "professional" web development and I would laugh in the face of anyone who offered me less than 60k (which I would not accept, but could at least negotiate with). Unless you're really strapped for money, I wouldn't even bother negotiating with anyone lowballing you that much. (I remember what it was like to be desperate for a job, so I get it. I'd probably take it with the goal of moving on as quickly as possible, though). DONT THREAD ON ME fucked around with this message at 03:29 on Mar 5, 2014 |
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Mar 5, 2014 03:20
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Transmogrifier posted:I've been offered a full time position as a Front End Web Developer/Designer. I'm a relatively fresh out of college graduate (six months) with some industry experience. They offered me $25K/yr, which right off the bat I knew was low, and my search into entry level positions in that area shows the offer is definitely 50% less. There is a review after 90 days that could result in a pay increase, assuming I've transitioned into the web side of everything. They did not specify how much that pay increase could be. Given my lack of experience, is it still acceptable for me to request something higher? Not necessarily the 55K that entry level Front End Web Developers are making, but definitely more than 25K. where in the world are you? 25k seems reasonable for somewhere like Ghana or Vietnam.
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Mar 5, 2014 04:11
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Transmogrifier posted:I've been offered a full time position as a Front End Web Developer/Designer. I'm a relatively fresh out of college graduate (six months) with some industry experience. They offered me $25K/yr, which right off the bat I knew was low, and my search into entry level positions in that area shows the offer is definitely 50% less. There is a review after 90 days that could result in a pay increase, assuming I've transitioned into the web side of everything. They did not specify how much that pay increase could be. Given my lack of experience, is it still acceptable for me to request something higher? Not necessarily the 55K that entry level Front End Web Developers are making, but definitely more than 25K. Are you more of a designer and less of a developer? I've seen a lot of this lately and it's basically a paid internship.
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Mar 5, 2014 05:01
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I'd love to hear stories or advice on negotiating benefits as opposed to salary. Like relocation, hiring bonus, etc.
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Mar 5, 2014 05:03
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USSMICHELLEBACHMAN posted:Why not the 55k entry level Front End Developers are making? 25K is an insult, espescially for someone with a degree. And "some industry experience" is way, way more experience than most people coming out of college who have no experience. 25k/year is what you pay someone's nephew who is 'really good with computers' to build a website on geocities. I didn't know if it was right for me to ask for the full 55K based on my lack of experience, like I was biting off more than I should be allowed to chew. rotor posted:where in the world are you? 25k seems reasonable for somewhere like Ghana or Vietnam.  Detroit and its surrounding areas.LARD LORD posted:Are you more of a designer and less of a developer? I've seen a lot of this lately and it's basically a paid internship. I'm actually more of a developer than a designer, and the job description itself, from the words of the person I am talking to, would consist of primarily coding: learning their CMS and how to use it, building websites from mock ups, application coding, and HTML for UI improvements.
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Mar 5, 2014 05:19
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Evil SpongeBob posted:I'd love to hear stories or advice on negotiating benefits as opposed to salary. Like relocation, hiring bonus, etc. Benefits can be tricky. A lot of companies have set rules for many of them. Unless you have crazy experience or are gods gift to humanity it can be impossible to break them. Relocation is pretty easy but it depends how they do it. My last job change I got a check after tax. They offered $5k and I basically just did a quick break down on what it will actually cost and the tax on the amount of money and proceed I needed more, ended up with $10k. Signing bonuses Some places offer it straight up but you can always ask. My last change they told me it was against policy, but I basically messed with the numbers to roll a $2.5k into the moving expenses. If a place will not budge on vacation ask if you can buy or sell vacation. I wanted an additional week but they couldn't do it, hr policy. My boss was able to bump the salary an additional $2.5k so I could buy that vacation time (although I ended just taking the money). Really once you have the offer break it down with what you come back with. Base salary, benefits, transition costs. Ask for whatever you want, the worse that happens is they say no. Breaking it into groups allows you to reach agreements in each area and still have a back in forth on others.
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Mar 5, 2014 05:44
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